Getting close to 2020. Any info on SONY or LG OLED improvements? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 242 Old 12-08-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
No, but getting closer.

Current 60Hz 50% BFI translates to persistence (MPRT) of 8.3ms.

120Hz 50% BFI (meaning effective refresh rate of 240Hz halves that to 4.2ms (though LG was claiming 3.5ms MPRT, perhaps because of some additional blanking interval).

Plasma is a bit sketchy as far as persistence/MPRT because it is not sample-and-hold, but 600Hz effective Refresh Rate is the generally-agreed-upon Effective Refresh Rste Equivalent of plasma for purposes of assessing motion performance.

600Hz Effective Refresh Rate equates to MPRT of ~1.7ms (so 2 to 2.5 times better than LGD’s 120Hz 50% BFI depending on whether the claim of 3.5ms is real or not).
Is it possible that an OLED at 120hz 50% BFI could have subjectively better motion clarity than the plasma due to the less visible phosphor trails, even if the motion resolution is worse on paper?
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post #62 of 242 Old 12-08-2019, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
No, but getting closer.

Current 60Hz 50% BFI translates to persistence (MPRT) of 8.3ms.

120Hz 50% BFI (meaning effective refresh rate of 240Hz halves that to 4.2ms (though LG was claiming 3.5ms MPRT, perhaps because of some additional blanking interval).

Plasma is a bit sketchy as far as persistence/MPRT because it is not sample-and-hold, but 600Hz effective Refresh Rate is the generally-agreed-upon Effective Refresh Rste Equivalent of plasma for purposes of assessing motion performance.

600Hz Effective Refresh Rate equates to MPRT of ~1.7ms (so 2 to 2.5 times better than LGD’️s 120Hz 50% BFI depending on whether the claim of 3.5ms is real or not).
Is it possible that an OLED at 120hz 50% BFI could have subjectively better motion clarity than the plasma due to the less visible phosphor trails, even if the motion resolution is worse on paper?
Yes, if you are more sensitive to phosphor trail than persistence-based motion blur, a WOLED with 120Hz BFI (120Hz framerate with 50% BFI or 60Hz framerate with 75% BFI) or even with 60Hz BFI (60Hz framerate with 50% BFI) may look as good or better than plasma to you...
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post #63 of 242 Old 12-08-2019, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Yes, if you are more sensitive to phosphor trail than persistence-based motion blur, a WOLED with 120Hz BFI (120Hz framerate with 50% BFI or 60Hz framerate with 75% BFI) or even with 60Hz BFI (60Hz framerate with 50% BFI) may look as good or better than plasma to you...
Thanks. I'm not terribly sensitive to phosphor trails on plasmas and, everything else being equal, I'd take the trails over the sample and hold blur on OLEDs.
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post #64 of 242 Old 12-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisherbert View Post
Thanks. I'm not terribly sensitive to phosphor trails on plasmas and, everything else being equal, I'd take the trails over the sample and hold blur on OLEDs.
For most people the slight differences in motion performance may not be all that visible in normal use. I’m 71 now and my visual acuity is still 20/20 but maybe my neural processing of those images has slowed down with age. In any event, if I compare my 1080 Panasonic Plasma to my LG C8 OLED I can’t actually see trails or blurring in high speed motion in either one. Even playing rapid motion shooter games from an Xbox One, I don’t really see any of these issues.
The only motion problem I do see is that I have to tune the LG to reduce the visible stutter on 24 frame movies to an, OK I can live with that, level since it isn’t visible most of the time.
Most people who haven’t trained their eye to detect fine variations in performance will be perfectly happy with present technology.
The only improvement I really would ask for is an increase in brightness for daylight viewing. That would be more important to me than improvements in motion handling.
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post #65 of 242 Old 12-18-2019, 03:27 PM
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Didn't LG tease new OLEDs before CES last year? I think I recall seeing a couple pictures of the lineup sometimes in December. Could be wrong though.

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post #66 of 242 Old 12-18-2019, 06:38 PM
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Didn't LG tease new OLEDs before CES last year? I think I recall seeing a couple pictures of the lineup sometimes in December. Could be wrong though.
No, don't think so. But they did put out an end-November press release about their Akpha9-Gen2 processor including HDMI2.1: https://www.androidheadlines.com/201...en-2-2019.html

Uncharacteristically quiet this cycle - let's hope it's because they have an especially impressive surprise to spring on us at CES and not because they have nothing to crow about .
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post #67 of 242 Old 12-18-2019, 10:16 PM
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After a lot of recent review of the LG and Sony; I only see that the LG could benefit with motion handling (for 24fps.) And the Sony could benefit with low level near black detail/noise and better DV processing.

Of course it would be nice if there was a bigger size like around a 4k 88" or so (since they did that for a 8k display.) My main concern is since 8k is kind of out of the bag; is the manufacturers might focus more on those rather than improving 4k displays. I hope I'm wrong about that.
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post #68 of 242 Old 12-18-2019, 10:44 PM
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From what I hear, LG is going to push 8K in a major way at CES 2020, expect multiple new models announced in 8K (Oled and UHD Nano Cell LCD's). You will still get the standard 4K oleds launching in april/may and one 48" oled model launching later in H2 2020. And expect the rollable oled they showed at CES 2019 to finally get a launch date, carrying a hefty 5 digit dollar price tag.
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post #69 of 242 Old 12-18-2019, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
From what I hear, LG is going to push 8K in a major way at CES 2020, expect multiple new models announced in 8K (Oled and UHD Nano Cell LCD's). You will still get the standard 4K oleds launching in april/may and one 48" oled model launching later in H2 2020. And expect the rollable oled they showed at CES 2019 to finally get a launch date, carrying a hefty 5 digit dollar price tag.
That's exactly right, that's what I was afraid of, and I was not repeating any rumors or something I heard or read somewhere. The 8k model didn't perform anywhere near as good as the "standard" 4k models, but that does not mean it can't improve. HD over SD besides more resolution provided better color and less compressed audio. UHD over HD besides more resolution provided even better color and HDR (and Atmos, but that can be provided on regular Blu-ray too.) In both of those cases, the big standout from those two upgrades had more to do with other features rather than higher resolution.

Right now the only difference (that I know of anyway) with 8k is it has more resolution than 4k. I'd rather see more refinements to 4k displays more than anything else. At the same time I'm figuring I won't have to worry that much about it since I'm guessing refinements will be made with the 2020 4k models as well.

Check this out. I just read that the Spears & Musil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc was presented to display manufacturers around July this year, and then to the studios a few weeks later. My guess is the manufactures will take some of those test patterns and see if there's anything that can be done to improve results based on those patterns. Of course I have no idea if that was actually done; or if any improvements would be represented during the CES 2020 show based from that disc.
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post #70 of 242 Old 12-19-2019, 08:05 AM
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Great info in this thread....thanks for the posts
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post #71 of 242 Old 12-19-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
From what I hear, LG is going to push 8K in a major way at CES 2020, expect multiple new models announced in 8K (Oled and UHD Nano Cell LCD's). You will still get the standard 4K oleds launching in april/may and one 48" oled model launching later in H2 2020. And expect the rollable oled they showed at CES 2019 to finally get a launch date, carrying a hefty 5 digit dollar price tag.
Hopefully they will release a 77 inch 8k at or around the same price as the 4k model and reduce the price on the 4k 77 inch. Probably wishful thinking. I'm closely watching the price on the 77 inch and am also waiting to see whats announced. If nothing grabs I will probably pick up the 2019 77 inch 4k.

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post #72 of 242 Old 12-19-2019, 12:16 PM
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Are they going to debut the 48" model OLED at CES? That's what I'm waiting for to finally jump in to OLED tech.
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post #73 of 242 Old 12-19-2019, 02:50 PM
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Are they going to debut the 48" model OLED at CES? That's what I'm waiting for to finally jump in to OLED tech.
LGD night demo it just to prove it’s on the way, but hard to see why LGE would want to make a lot of noise about their cheapest entry-level WOLED TV.,,

Just including the 48B20 in their 2020 lineup announcement seems like plenty of visibility.

Only question I have is whether there will also be a 48C20 (which can also be covered by the 2020 lineup announcement.
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post #74 of 242 Old 12-19-2019, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
From what I hear, LG is going to push 8K in a major way at CES 2020, expect multiple new models announced in 8K (Oled and UHD Nano Cell LCD's). You will still get the standard 4K oleds launching in april/may and one 48" oled model launching later in H2 2020. And expect the rollable oled they showed at CES 2019 to finally get a launch date, carrying a hefty 5 digit dollar price tag.
Appreciate some color on your source - do they actually work for LGE (or LGD) or is what you heard from more speculative / less direct sources such as your local Best Buy TV Salesman?

Don’t get me wrong, if I had to guess what LG will announce/show at CES it would be very close to what you have summarized.

65Z20 and 75/77Z20 8K WOLEDs to complement the next-gen 88Z20 (in addition to a boatload of 8K LCDs, but meh).

LGD already demoed a 65” 8K panel at CES’19, so 65” and 75/77” 8K offerings seem highly likely.

The 48” panel availability for 2020 has also already been announced by LGD, so an entry-level 48B20 seems highly likely as well.

And the delays on the 65R9 are also well-documented, with late 2019 launch only in Korea (did that happen) and 2020 launch in other markets including US already more or less promised.

Whether LG makes a lot of noise about it or not, the major advances for 2020 are likely to be under the hood.

As a minimum, I’m expecting the increased color gamut from the new B/G-R/B WOLED stack as well as actual launch of the 120Hz BFI / 3.5ms MPRT LGD announced and demoed at CES’19.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed that they might surprise us with a BFI / dithering solution that goes even beyond that, but that is purely wishful thinking (though informed by the fact that their 4K backplane already supports a native raw refresh rate of 240Hz...).

I’ll be interested to see whether they announce a 75Z20 (compatible with both 10.5G and 8.5G manufacturing) or a 77Z20 (very inefficient at 10.5G and pretty much limited to more expensive 8.5G manufacturing).

If your source is close to LG and has any idea whether we should expect an 8K 77” or a 75”, that would be the interesting.
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post #75 of 242 Old 12-20-2019, 02:56 PM
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I've still got a 65" Panasonic plasma I'm expecting to possibly replace maybe next year so I guess I better start keeping an eye on these types of threads.

Any chance of anyone but Samsung getting a One Connection style box? Seems like an awesome idea for wire management... Two TVs with vaguely similar video capabilities that would be a selling point to me personally.
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post #76 of 242 Old 12-20-2019, 06:03 PM
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^^My source is just another europe forum i post on, the guys who post the info are in touch with lg europe, this year though there haven't been info leaks like previous years. We will need to see if an 8K oled in 77"/75" will be on the cards. but i hope their increased push for 8K on both the oled and lcd front doesn't stop them from bringing some upgrades to the 4K oled lineup or push the 4K units to the backseat (4K is what I'm staying with for the next few years). 120hz BFI is something I definitely want to see, they ran into technical issues last year and hopefully they have sorted it out by now.
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post #77 of 242 Old 12-21-2019, 10:42 AM
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i'd like to see the blue issue solved.

i'd like more brightness.

i'd like a better burn in/life expectancy prognosis.

i'd like excellent motion.

then i will buy.
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post #78 of 242 Old 12-21-2019, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by circumstances View Post
i'd like to see the blue issue solved.

i'd like more brightness.

i'd like a better burn in/life expectancy prognosis.

i'd like excellent motion.

then i will buy.
As OP, I specifically asked that this thread NOT devolve into a “Wish List” of what people WANT (as you have done anyway), but rather any info on what we might ACTUALLY EXPECT at the CES show and 2020. As I originally stated, a wish list is “worthless” but at least educated rumors of what LG and Sony are up to would be encouraging.
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post #79 of 242 Old 12-21-2019, 09:10 PM
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Looks like LGE is trying to boast only their 8K TV's meet the criteria set by the CTA.

Quote:
LG Electronics (LG) announced that its TVs are the first in the world to exceed the strict requirements established by the Consumer Technology Association to define the new generation of 8K Ultra HD products and services delivering four times more detail than 4K TV and 16 times more than HDTV.

The official industry 8K Ultra HD designation and logo were developed by the U.S.-based CTA to set a clear definition for retailers and consumers to help better identify products that meet key 8K Ultra HD requirements. LG’s Real 8K TVs, which will make their debut at CES® 2020, are the first to exceed CTA’s specific requirements including those related to resolution, digital inputs1, high dynamic range, upscaling2, bit depth and measurement methodology.

The CTA based its 8K definition on the threshold specified by the International Committee for Display Metrology.3 The measurement guidelines based on contrast modulation (CM) state that resolution must meet a 50 percent minimum CM threshold along with at least 33 million active pixels in order to qualify as 8K UHD. Other industry standard-setting bodies such as the International Organization for Standardization also use Contrast Modulation as the industry benchmark.

Starting in January 2020, every LG 8K TV will display CTA’s 8K UHD logo. New 2020 models build on LG’s leadership position as the only manufacturer offering Real 8K TVs in two categories – OLED (LG SIGNATURE OLED 8K) and LCD (LG 8K NanoCell TV) – all delivering CM values in the 90 percent range, while some other models in the industry remain in the low double digits.

Third-party testing by the global product testing and certification organization Intertek verified that the 75-inch LG NanoCell 8K TV far surpasses the CM measurement requirement set by ICDM, with the unit returning an impressive 90 percent CM horizontally and 91 percent CM vertically. Another leading international testing firm, VDE (Verband Deutscher Elektrotechniker) reported nearly identical CM results.

“CTA is the consumer technology industry authority, and LG’s use of the CTA 8K UHD logo communicates a clear message to consumers that a Real 8K TV from LG will deliver the viewing experience they expect,” said Nam Ho-jun, senior vice president of R&D at LG’s Home Entertainment Company. “We expect LG’s 2020 8K TV lineup to set a new standard for the TV industry.”
http://www.lgnewsroom.com/2019/12/lg...-ultra-hd-tvs/
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post #80 of 242 Old 12-21-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by circumstances View Post
i'd like to see the blue issue solved.

i'd like more brightness.

i'd like a better burn in/life expectancy prognosis.

i'd like excellent motion.

then i will buy.
As OP, I specifically asked that this thread NOT devolve into a “Wish List” of what people WANT (as you have done anyway), but rather any info on what we might ACTUALLY EXPECT at the CES show and 2020. As I originally stated, a wish list is “worthless” but at least educated rumors of what LG and Sony are up to would be encouraging.
I missed where you said that.

Sorry for going off topic!
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post #81 of 242 Old 12-22-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
LGD night demo it just to prove it’s on the way, but hard to see why LGE would want to make a lot of noise about their cheapest entry-level WOLED TV.,,

Just including the 48B20 in their 2020 lineup announcement seems like plenty of visibility.

Only question I have is whether there will also be a 48C20 (which can also be covered by the 2020 lineup announcement.

Either way will be fine with me. Just an announcement, or an announcement and actually showing it off. Just to know it's actually on its way with a time frame of Spring/Summer (or whatever it may be), I'll be happy .


Yeah, that'll be interesting to see if they include it in the C lineup. I would think it will most definitely be a B model.
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post #82 of 242 Old 12-23-2019, 04:23 PM
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Question Do we know anything concrete about the 2020 C10 ?

At this point friends I might as well wait for the 2020 C10. Question is what can we honestly excpect from it ?

My main features might be

#1 . 120Hz BFI
#2 . New a10 CPU (the a9 Gen 2 is amazing how fast Netflix and YouTube load)
#3 . Slightly Brighter
#4 . New Green phosphors (greens look dead next to QLED sorry)
#5 . WebOS 5.0
#6 . A new Remote (please)
#7 . Enhanced GSYNC Ultimate Support 4K UHD @120 Hz (not just GSYNC certified)
#8 . 20lbs lighter (why is a 55” OLED so darn heavy ? UK TV tipping laws right)
#9 . Better motion panning processing and clarity
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post #83 of 242 Old 12-23-2019, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Appreciate some color on your source - do they actually work for LGE (or LGD) or is what you heard from more speculative / less direct sources such as your local Best Buy TV Salesman?

Don’t get me wrong, if I had to guess what LG will announce/show at CES it would be very close to what you have summarized.

65Z20 and 75/77Z20 8K WOLEDs to complement the next-gen 88Z20 (in addition to a boatload of 8K LCDs, but meh).

LGD already demoed a 65” 8K panel at CES’19, so 65” and 75/77” 8K offerings seem highly likely.

The 48” panel availability for 2020 has also already been announced by LGD, so an entry-level 48B20 seems highly likely as well.

And the delays on the 65R9 are also well-documented, with late 2019 launch only in Korea (did that happen) and 2020 launch in other markets including US already more or less promised.

Whether LG makes a lot of noise about it or not, the major advances for 2020 are likely to be under the hood.

As a minimum, I’m expecting the increased color gamut from the new B/G-R/B WOLED stack as well as actual launch of the 120Hz BFI / 3.5ms MPRT LGD announced and demoed at CES’19.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed that they might surprise us with a BFI / dithering solution that goes even beyond that, but that is purely wishful thinking (though informed by the fact that their 4K backplane already supports a native raw refresh rate of 240Hz...).

I’ll be interested to see whether they announce a 75Z20 (compatible with both 10.5G and 8.5G manufacturing) or a 77Z20 (very inefficient at 10.5G and pretty much limited to more expensive 8.5G manufacturing).

If your source is close to LG and has any idea whether we should expect an 8K 77” or a 75”, that would be the interesting.

Im curious about the “increased color gamut from the new B/G-R/B WOLED stack”. My C9 does 98% of P3. Should we expect 100% coverage and a boots to color volume as well?



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post #84 of 242 Old 12-23-2019, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by helvetica bold View Post
Im curious about the “increased color gamut from the new B/G-R/B WOLED stack”. My C9 does 98% of P3. Should we expect 100% coverage and a boots to color volume as well?



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Here is what LGD presented this year (attached):

From 99% DCI-P3 to 100% DCI P3 (and beyond: from 75% Rec.2020 (according to Rtings.com) to 85% Rec.2020).

Since color volume is fundamentally gamut X brightness, that should increase as well...
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post #85 of 242 Old 12-24-2019, 03:39 AM
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#7 . Enhanced GSYNC Ultimate Support 4K UHD @120 Hz (not just GSYNC certified)
That would entail a price hike, since it would require a dedicated chip. I think it would also lock you out of HDMI VRR, which would be terrible for console gamers? But I could be wrong there.
I think it just needs a wider VRR range, that's pretty much it. You already get the rest when Nvidia releases HDMI 2.1 graphics cards.
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post #86 of 242 Old 12-24-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vishwa Somayaji View Post
I have a question for the experts here, related to the improvements on OLED technology. When they released the Z9 8K I expected it to be significantly brighter than the 4K OLEDs. But, the brightness is very similar. OLED being emissive display, I thought 33 million pixels emitting light should overall make it brighter(even after accounting for a slightly larger size). In the LCD, it is the opposite and you need higher brightness LEDs to push light through more (transmissive) pixels. What is the physics I am missing? Thanks

The missing physics is that though there are 4x more subpixels in 8K vs. 4K one can not push the 8K subpixels to the same (or similar) light emission levels as 4K subpixels since they are smaller and due to heat dissipation issues. In the end brightness has to be the same.
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post #87 of 242 Old 12-24-2019, 03:08 PM
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post #88 of 242 Old 12-24-2019, 03:27 PM
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Why do people keep posting YouTube videos from this guy?
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post #89 of 242 Old 12-25-2019, 01:40 PM
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Why do people keep posting YouTube videos from this guy?
He really is pretty much of an idiot and incredibly grating on the ears.

But roll-down is a nice (and technically easier/cheaper) complement to LGE's WOLED lineup (especially for 88" and up), assuming LG is aiming to get the cost down and go after consumer channels...

And he's also often dead-wrong.

The C20 is almost-certain to have the new WOLED stack with increased color gamut/volume as well as 120Hz BFI. Once LG and NHK announce the 2020 WOLEDs as being the 'best' TVs to watch the 2020 Olympics on, anyone whose just ponied up for a 2019 WOLED is likely to have buyer's remorse...

It's sounding as though we may see an 88" 8K Rolldown TV in LG's booth at CES...

And that's a TV I just may be ready to redesign my entire living room around!
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post #90 of 242 Old 12-25-2019, 04:18 PM
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Right after you redesign your bank account or take out that second mortgage.

So what happened to the 65" ROLED they showed at last CES? It's still listed on their web site without any price or release date.

Having it roll down would definitely be preferable for those replacing front-projector roll down screens. But how often is anyone actually going to roll this up or down? Seems like a pointless expense and reliability concern. Would rather see them focus on real issues like improved uniformity than distract us with gimmicks that never ship at consumer prices.
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