Getting close to 2020. Any info on SONY or LG OLED improvements? - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Balthazar Lin View Post
HDR10+ support. BFI, you know, the promised it.
Did they announce something today about BFI in the new models? I didn't see anything.
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post #212 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
Yeah, and that's what scares me most. As mentioned I will go from 60" to 77", Kuro plasma to OLED. Motion... I fear it's gonna be a let down. But I'm honestly tired of waiting, plus I can't live forever. So years go by and I remain with no HDR, with a 60" screen when I have space for a bigger one. Unless there's something deal breaking in this X series by LG, I guess 2020 is going to be the right year for me. Crossing fingers for better BFI and that's it.
When I bought my LG 65C7 I was immediately stuck by the stutter. Then I went to compare it on the Kuro and found it there as well but not as objectionable.
Over time, I got used to it and enabled DeJudder at 2 or 4 (which is the Clear motion setting) and got used a bit of smoothing.
Now, I prefer that. IMO, the goal for home display motion is to match the blurred but not jumping motion of the cinema presentation not the Kuro which is also flawed.

DeJudder does remove some stutter but sharpens movement and, to some extent, adds the soap opera effect (SOA).

There are just too many positives to wait to upgrade. For SDR, I think you will not miss Kuro ABL.

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post #213 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by meli View Post
Did they announce something today about BFI in the new models? I didn't see anything.
There were no real info in that presentation((
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post #214 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 02:57 PM
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See ALMA's post in the CES 2020 thread for details on Sony OLED that just got announced. Its keynote is in the next couple hours.
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post #215 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I’m amused by some who still seem to think that motion on plasmas is/was perfect. At this point it’s almost like some kind of romanticism. The main issue was and always is judder during panning. If the panning is done poorly or too rapidly, the motion will look like crap whether it’s a plasma or an OLED. I remember tests that Robert (VE) and I ran years ago on some of the best Pioneer & Panasonic plasmas. With many typical panning scenes, they all had distracting judder despite fans of both camps saying one or the other handled it better.

I don’t find motion on my C9 to be any worse than what I recall on my Pioneer or Fujitsu plasmas. Am I less sensitive to motion issues than some? Perhaps, but I sure was able to see bad motion on plasmas and, at times, I can certainly see it on OLEDs. Unlike some, I find motion settings, used judiciously, can help smooth out things to some degree without untoward artifacts. But if you’re determined to smooth out a pan that’s laden with inherent judder to begin with, you’re guaranteed to be introducing artifacts elsewhere.

With all that said, the OLED picture, IMO, is so superior to that of plasma, that even if motion was somewhat worse, I doubt I could be happy watching plasma today. My friend still has a Pioneer plasma, and the picture is simply not in the same league as OLED. When he sees the picture on my OLEDs, he’s the first to admit it. He’s not in denial.
Judder is not the issue since that's the way the movement is with 24fps material...it's what we see at the theatre and that's fine and I don't mind that at all. It's the way our eyes perceive motion on a given type of technology that's different when compared to plasma; that's the issue. In other words, it's the way each refreshed image decays either quickly or not as quickly and that changes how humans perceive motion on a given type of technology.

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post #216 of 243 Old 01-06-2020, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
When I bought my LG 65C7 I was immediately stuck by the stutter. Then I went to compare it on the Kuro and found it there as well but not as objectionable.
Over time, I got used to it and enabled DeJudder at 2 or 4 (which is the Clear motion setting) and got used a bit of smoothing.
Now, I prefer that. IMO, the goal for home display motion is to match the blurred but not jumping motion of the cinema presentation not the Kuro which is also flawed.

DeJudder does remove some stutter but sharpens movement and, to some extent, adds the soap opera effect (SOA).

There are just too many positives to wait to upgrade. For SDR, I think you will not miss Kuro ABL.

- Rich
Do you mean Judder? Stutter happens when 24fps material is played back at 60fps...on pans especially it's very jarring. The Kuro does an excellent job with movies played back at 60fps, but Judder on Kuros doesn't look any different than it does in the cinema. However it does look different on OLED screens. Some say that bothers them, others say it doesn't.

All those smoothing effects not only take away the movie (or film) look; it also makes big budget movies look like cheap video productions.

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post #217 of 243 Old 01-07-2020, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Thebarnman View Post
Do you mean Judder? Stutter happens when 24fps material is played back at 60fps...on pans especially it's very jarring. The Kuro does an excellent job with movies played back at 60fps, but Judder on Kuros doesn't look any different than it does in the cinema. However it does look different on OLED screens. Some say that bothers them, others say it doesn't.

All those smoothing effects not only take away the movie (or film) look; it also makes big budget movies look like cheap video productions.
These terms or not well defined. For example Rtings reviews rate the LG as no judder but in fact motion is less fluid at low frame rates than the Kuros.
To avoid confusion, the Kuro (Pure Cinema mode and not 60 Hz) and to a larger extent the LG OLEDs display an effect where the image appears to jump backwards during slow pans, even though, in reality, it does not. This does not occur in the cinema's I go to. The image blurs but does NOT jump.

IMO, the desired panning motion is not the Kuro, it is the smooth blurred look in a cinema.

Frame interpolation can sharpen slow pans which is not cinematic while reducing the jumping effect, so you have to pick your poison.

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post #218 of 243 Old 01-07-2020, 12:52 PM
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Yea I know this can be a bit confusing.

Rtings saying that the LG has no judder (they might mean with what ever motion effects are turned on to make it smoother during pans or movement.) That effect at least to me makes it look like something was shot on video (30fps) rather than film or video shot at 24fps. However I do understand what they mean when they say "motion is less fluid at low frame rates than the Kuros." That is simply what 24fps sources look like, however from what you wrote down I read it as saying the effect is more noticeable on the OLED. Let me explain...

The Kuros play each frame three times (just like what happens when film is being ran through a film based movie projector.) In other words, the Kuros have a refresh rate of 72hz. The LG has a refresh rate of 120hz (plays each frame five times.) The end result is both types of displays do not have to perform any pulldown to properly play back 24fps content. (Just so you know, I don't know what the refresh rate of cinema digital projectors are.)

Each type of display does not have to do any pulldown to properly play back 24fps content. What is different about the two displays types; is plasma reacts differently when compared to how OLED technology reacts when emitting light. Now here is where I get a little confused; one of those two types when emitting light responds quicker than the other. I think it's the plasma that decays (goes to black) slower when compared to OLED. When that happens, our eyes see the light as being more persistent when compared to how our brains perceive light coming from a OLED. So that slower decay gives a perception of smother (even with judder) when compared to something that turns to black much faster. When the OLED turns to black faster, it's easier to notice the small movements that each frame create (what was actually captured on film.)

To combat that effect, OLED manufactures have turned to motion enhancers to smooth the effect of the more noticeable judder. The problem is most of these features (not all) makes 24fps material look too smooth and it all ends up looking like something shot on video.

Then there's BFI (Black Frame Insursion) used (or will be used) on some flat panel displays. From what I've read, "It simulates CRT flicker, which is necessary for the human eye to perceive fluid motion."

The point being is CRT and Plasma reproduce movement in a way that looks more like what we would see at a movie theatre playing back 24fps content. OLED manufacturers I think are still working on getting that look that people are used to. It's close, but the way it is now for some it's bothersome, and for others it's simply not anything they notice or get used to.

I have a Kuro, and I have not seen that effect you mention where the image appears to jump backwards during slow pans. I know the effect your talking about and I've seen it before, but that happens on a display that can't properly do 2:3 pulldown when playing 24fps movies sourced at 60hz like on regular TV channels. By the way that effect is called Stutter.

And in my opinion, my Kuro does have the smooth blurred look like what I see in the cinema. But again, that's simply my point of view.


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These terms or not well defined. For example Rtings reviews rate the LG as no judder but in fact motion is less fluid at low frame rates than the Kuros.
To avoid confusion, the Kuro (Pure Cinema mode and not 60 Hz) and to a larger extent the LG OLEDs display an effect where the image appears to jump backwards during slow pans, even though, in reality, it does not. This does not occur in the cinema's I go to. The image blurs but does NOT jump.

IMO, the desired panning motion is not the Kuro, it is the smooth blurred look in a cinema.

Frame interpolation can sharpen slow pans which is not cinematic while reducing the jumping effect, so you have to pick your poison.

- Rich

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post #219 of 243 Old 01-07-2020, 03:26 PM
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Yea I know this can be a bit confusing.

Rtings saying that the LG has no judder (they might mean with what ever motion effects are turned on to make it smoother during pans or movement.) That effect at least to me makes it look like something was shot on video (30fps) rather than film or video shot at 24fps. However I do understand what they mean when they say "motion is less fluid at low frame rates than the Kuros." That is simply what 24fps sources look like, however from what you wrote down I read it as saying the effect is more noticeable on the OLED. Let me explain...

The Kuros play each frame three times (just like what happens when film is being ran through a film based movie projector.) In other words, the Kuros have a refresh rate of 72hz. The LG has a refresh rate of 120hz (plays each frame five times.) The end result is both types of displays do not have to perform any pulldown to properly play back 24fps content. (Just so you know, I don't know what the refresh rate of cinema digital projectors are.)

Each type of display does not have to do any pulldown to properly play back 24fps content. What is different about the two displays types; is plasma reacts differently when compared to how OLED technology reacts when emitting light. Now here is where I get a little confused; one of those two types when emitting light responds quicker than the other. I think it's the plasma that decays (goes to black) slower when compared to OLED. When that happens, our eyes see the light as being more persistent when compared to how our brains perceive light coming from a OLED. So that slower decay gives a perception of smother (even with judder) when compared to something that turns to black much faster. When the OLED turns to black faster, it's easier to notice the small movements that each frame create (what was actually captured on film.)

To combat that effect, OLED manufactures have turned to motion enhancers to smooth the effect of the more noticeable judder. The problem is most of these features (not all) makes 24fps material look too smooth and it all ends up looking like something shot on video.

Then there's BFI (Black Frame Insursion) used (or will be used) on some flat panel displays. From what I've read, "It simulates CRT flicker, which is necessary for the human eye to perceive fluid motion."

The point being is CRT and Plasma reproduce movement in a way that looks more like what we would see at a movie theatre playing back 24fps content. OLED manufacturers I think are still working on getting that look that people are used to. It's close, but the way it is now for some it's bothersome, and for others it's simply not anything they notice or get used to.

I have a Kuro, and I have not seen that effect you mention where the image appears to jump backwards during slow pans. I know the effect your talking about and I've seen it before, but that happens on a display that can't properly do 2:3 pulldown when playing 24fps movies sourced at 60hz like on regular TV channels. By the way that effect is called Stutter.

And in my opinion, my Kuro does have the smooth blurred look like what I see in the cinema. But again, that's simply my point of view.
Try watching the Star Trek Into Darkness scene with panning scene in the space station. I saw this in the theater and it was fine. It is bad on the LG without frame interpolation and nothing to write home about on the Kuro. This area of performance is completely subjective.

I have become accustomed to mild frame-interpolation and stopped fretting over it.

- Rich
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post #220 of 243 Old 01-08-2020, 11:09 PM
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When is AH9/A9H available?

I know Sony just released A9S but I am about to pull the trigger for an A9G 65". I was hoping Sony would release A9H 65" with HDMI 2.1...

Anyone has any info? I also only saw A8H...
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post #221 of 243 Old 01-08-2020, 11:17 PM
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I know Sony just released A9S but I am about to pull the trigger for an A9G 65". I was hoping Sony would release A9H 65" with HDMI 2.1...

Anyone has any info? I also only saw A8H...
If you go based on when threads were created when the new tvs arrived, it would be sometime in may. The A9G owners thread was created May 15th 2019.
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post #222 of 243 Old 01-08-2020, 11:39 PM
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No you won't get A9H in may. A9H wasnt even announced at CES, A8H will launch in the first half, A9H 55/65 I'm guessing will be a september launch.
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post #223 of 243 Old 01-09-2020, 06:23 PM
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So no new Sony OLED over 65 inches in 2020? Nothing, zip, zilch, nada? Just carrying over current models as-is?
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post #224 of 243 Old 01-09-2020, 08:50 PM
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So no new Sony OLED over 65 inches in 2020? Nothing, zip, zilch, nada? Just carrying over current models as-is?


They carried over the A1E for 2 years as well...


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post #225 of 243 Old 01-09-2020, 09:18 PM
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I don't mind carrying models over, but also introduce SOMETHING new.



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So no new Sony OLED over 65 inches in 2020? Nothing, zip, zilch, nada? Just carrying over current models as-is?


They carried over the A1E for 2 years as well...


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post #226 of 243 Old 01-11-2020, 01:39 AM
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I think there will be newer models at IFA this year, closer to the launch of the PS5 and Xbox One X Series.

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post #227 of 243 Old 01-11-2020, 04:07 AM
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I dislike Sony HDR and especially Dolby Vision.

LG and Pana have much better her and Dolby vision

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post #228 of 243 Old 01-13-2020, 06:28 PM
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So no new Sony OLED over 65 inches in 2020? Nothing, zip, zilch, nada? Just carrying over current models as-is?

No inside info here, but I would guess Sony will debut an A9H with HDMI 2.1 to roughly coincide with the PS5 release. If they do not, they will not be selling too many OLEDs this year, as the carry-over models will have difficulty competing with the CX.
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post #229 of 243 Old 01-13-2020, 09:14 PM
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No inside info here, but I would guess Sony will debut an A9H with HDMI 2.1 to roughly coincide with the PS5 release. If they do not, they will not be selling too many OLEDs this year, as the carry-over models will have difficulty competing with the CX.
Cant find it again but thought I saw a CES 2020 report that Sony changed A9 naming conventions and skipped to something like an A9S.

ETA: Guess that larger sets were not for OLED. A9S was 48"

https://www.cnet.com/news/sony-tv-li...n-coming-2020/


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post #230 of 243 Old 01-14-2020, 04:01 AM
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No inside info here, but I would guess Sony will debut an A9H with HDMI 2.1 to roughly coincide with the PS5 release. If they do not, they will not be selling too many OLEDs this year, as the carry-over models will have difficulty competing with the CX.
A9H 55" and 65" around september this year (same way A9F got launched in september 2018) with updated processor x1 ultimate plus and possibly hdmi 2.1 port(but no surety on hdmi 2.1). And no new 77" model this year, 77A9G carries over to this year. What do you mean by sony having difficulty competing with CX? In terms of sales? Meh who cares lg already outsells sony >2:1 every year and sony knows that, they are not competing on sales numbers. If you mean in terms of technical prowess, we don't know how good an alpha 9 gen. 3 measures with its processing relative to X1 ultimate.
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post #231 of 243 Old 01-14-2020, 06:38 AM
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A9H 55" and 65" around september this year (same way A9F got launched in september 2018) with updated processor x1 ultimate plus and possibly hdmi 2.1 port(but no surety on hdmi 2.1). And no new 77" model this year, 77A9G carries over to this year. What do you mean by sony having difficulty competing with CX? In terms of sales? Meh who cares lg already outsells sony >2:1 every year and sony knows that, they are not competing on sales numbers. If you mean in terms of technical prowess, we don't know how good an alpha 9 gen. 3 measures with its processing relative to X1 ultimate.

I was referring to overall feature set, not sales. The CX will now have 120 Hz BFI in addition to HDMI 2.1, whereas the A9G has neither. I am an A9G owner, so I am biased towards Sony upscaling and motion, but Sony's high-end OLED offering is virtually unchanged since the A9F was released in 2018.
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I was referring to overall feature set, not sales. The CX will now have 120 Hz BFI in addition to HDMI 2.1, whereas the A9G has neither. I am an A9G owner, so I am biased towards Sony upscaling and motion, but Sony's high-end OLED offering is virtually unchanged since the A9F was released in 2018.
A9H will have technical improvements like an updated ultimate processor and will have 120hz BFI, infact 120hz BFI has been confirmed for the announnced A8H as well, the 'X motion clarity' sony advertised for it is 120hz BFI mode, both A8H and A9H will have it. But you missed the point i was making, A9H will be 55" and 65", no new 77" model, 77A9G carries over for second year. The leaked sony 2020 models did not show the presence of a 77A9H , only 55 and 65. And the same i'm being told by a guy i know who's connected with sony's regional division over here. If you followed the A9F in 2018, it was released in september 2018 and only available in 55 and 65, no 77 version, the A1 77 from 2017 got carried over. Same happens with A9H.
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post #233 of 243 Old 01-16-2020, 08:18 AM
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Is it confirmed somewhere that Sony A9S and A8H will not have HDMI 2.1, HDMI-VRR, ALLM, 4k120, etc?
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post #234 of 243 Old 01-16-2020, 08:31 AM
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There is absolutely no mention of HDMI 2.1 features on the Sony A8H page, so the omission is a definitive answer, IMO.
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post #235 of 243 Old 01-16-2020, 09:35 AM
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I would bet money that is on purpose, that they are going to release something with the PS5. Much like they have with their other console releases, which makes my conundrum even harder. Take the deal on the $2500 75Z9D or pull the trigger on a 77A9G knowing that it is so much more? Then there is the thought of just going with the 65 since that is what I will be replacing, oh the decisions!?!?!?!?!

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post #236 of 243 Old 02-09-2020, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Curious- is SONY's A9G motion and upscaling essentially the same quality as 950G ?

So both the A9G and the 950G have the SONY "Ultimate" chip/processor. I guess I am wondering then if OLED (with same processor chip) is inherently [I]better or worse[I] with motion and upscaling than its LED brethren ?
Guessing that the two technologies do impact the aforementioned, despite same processor...
Thanks for responses.
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post #237 of 243 Old 02-13-2020, 05:54 PM
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The only improvement that will make any difference to me as far as buying an oled is whether they fix the burn in issues. Until then oled is dead to me. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to make plasma anymore but there are plenty of great tvs with no risk of burn in like oled.
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post #238 of 243 Old 02-14-2020, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelerfan47 View Post
The only improvement that will make any difference to me as far as buying an oled is whether they fix the burn in issues. Until then oled is dead to me. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to make plasma anymore but there are plenty of great tvs with no risk of burn in like oled.
??? You lament the absence of plasma production and at the same time you don't want to have any risk of burn in. Plasma was susceptible to burn in, remember?


Then... there are plenty of great TVs, correct. But, depending on usage patterns, it can be argued that none reaches OLED quality (thinking low ambient light viewing or dark room viewing).
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post #239 of 243 Old 02-14-2020, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by steelerfan47 View Post
The only improvement that will make any difference to me as far as buying an oled is whether they fix the burn in issues. Until then oled is dead to me. Unfortunately, no one seems to want to make plasma anymore but there are plenty of great tvs with no risk of burn in like oled.
You came here to tell people that oled is dead to you? And you say you wished plasma existed, well plasma was more susceptible to oled in terms of permanent IR if you missed that. And great tv's may exist without burn in risk but their picture is not on the same level of oled. And dont bring up micro led , micro led is more in the 'fools paradise' category right now, commercially available micro led tv's with 'normal' sized screens and consumer level prices are a good 5-6 years away.
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post #240 of 243 Old 02-14-2020, 10:07 AM
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I agree that early plasmas had ir, burn in issues but that last 2 I had didn't have that issue at all.
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