Getting close to 2020. Any info on SONY or LG OLED improvements? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 60 Old 11-17-2019, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Getting close to 2020. Any info on SONY or LG OLED improvements?

Well, we are in mid-November, getting close to 2020. I wonder if there are any leaks out there regarding improvements that we might be able to look forward to in SONY or LG OLED panels ? I know of a couple of things that I would LIKE to have in improvements, BUT a wish list is worthless.
So any improvements actually on the horizon?
Thanks for any insight !
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post #2 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 09:08 AM
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Patent was filed for "edgeless" LG OLED.
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post #3 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 09:42 AM
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Patent was filed for "edgeless" LG OLED.
He asked about improvements
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post #4 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 09:45 AM
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Patent was filed for "edgeless" LG OLED.
That's cosmetic, not new or improved technology .

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post #5 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 10:30 AM
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Oled tech is maxed out at this point, the only thing they are going to do is up the resolution to 8k and charge you thousands of dollars extra for it.
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post #6 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by picturequality View Post
Oled tech is maxed out at this point, the only thing they are going to do is up the resolution to 8k and charge you thousands of dollars extra for it.
I “get” what you are saying BUT c’mon, there are certainly “tweaks” that COULD occur ! Will they? I dunno and why I asked if there was any info on that.
I mean, SONY could do 2.1; clean up some issues. I totally disagree that this is a totally polished product.
Bottom line...they CAN make some improvements.
Will they ?
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post #7 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
I “get” what you are saying BUT c’mon, there are certainly “tweaks” that COULD occur ! Will they? I dunno and why I asked if there was any info on that.
I mean, SONY could do 2.1; clean up some issues. I totally disagree that this is a totally polished product.
Bottom line...they CAN make some improvements.
Will they ?
Yes they could add a new processor make the upscaling a little sharper, HDR highlights a little brighter etc but these kind of subtle upgrades are barley noticeable. Look at the A9F and the A9G its almost the same thing.
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post #8 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 03:49 PM
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Brightness and color volume increases are scheduled for after 2022.
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post #9 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
Well, we are in mid-November, getting close to 2020. I wonder if there are any leaks out there regarding improvements that we might be able to look forward to in SONY or LG OLED panels ? I know of a couple of things that I would LIKE to have in improvements, BUT a wish list is worthless.
So any improvements actually on the horizon?
Thanks for any insight !
I had this same Question good thread, Sadly if you look at LG’s Own RoadMap Backwards it’s been very accurate. And we won’t get a Brighter OLED and new 30,000 Blue phosphors until 2021 at the earliest. (Currently 15,000 hour Blue phosphors degrade 50% by 8,000 hours)

So I’ll be looking for a LG C9 at BB for cheap.
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post #10 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 09:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
Brightness and color volume increases are scheduled for after 2022.
Does LG ever hit these 'roadmap' targets? Few years ago the 'roadmap' said by 2019, the 10.5G plant would start ramping up production, it's close to end of 2019 and there is no 10.5G yet. TADF emitter was also being claimed to make it to oleds, we still haven't seen it. I would take all these LG 'roadmaps' with a big grain of salt , if they say 2022 for higher brightness and color volume, I would take that to be 2024 or later. And even when these supposed increases in brightness and color volume come, it's not going to be night and day. They claim 30% increase in brightness, which from the current 700-800 nit brightness of oleds would mean an increase to around 1000 nits, the panasonic GZ2000 already doees 1000 nits on some panels by manipulating the oled backplane. And as for increase in color volume, it's not like the increase is going to get oleds to do 90-100% Rec. 2020 volume (they'd have to get rid of the white subpixel if they want a drastic increase in color volume).
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post #11 of 60 Old 11-18-2019, 09:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post
I had this same Question good thread, Sadly if you look at LG’s Own RoadMap Backwards it’s been very accurate. And we won’t get a Brighter OLED and new 30,000 Blue phosphors until 2021 at the earliest. (Currently 15,000 hour Blue phosphors degrade 50% by 8,000 hours)

So I’ll be looking for a LG C9 at BB for cheap.
There is a possibility the next year LG oleds might have the 120hz BFI feature at launch that they scrapped at the last moment on the 2019 models. And a 'proper' hdmi 2.1 implementation, with no locked features like 4k 120hz. There is also some talk of lg making a change to the oled stack from Y/G to G, which would result in a little better saturation on greens (though it would be minor). You may at least want to wait and see what the 2020 models bring, as it's not long now. a C9 could be bought next year too, at least until the 2020s launch around april or may.
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post #12 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 03:32 AM
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LG and Sony can come up with their version of GZ2000 e.g. adding a metal sheet to better dissipate heat from the panel?
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post #13 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 05:13 AM
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I'd expect all the manufacturers bring 120hz BFI at minimum which will be a significant development on its own.

Given that 2018 to 2019 was such a marginal evolution for LG and Sony, it's safe to say that they've spent most of their resource working on the 2020 models for the past few years. My feeling is that 2020 will be the big step forward in all aspects, that we haven't had in a while.

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post #14 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 08:36 AM
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Oled tech is maxed out at this point, the only thing they are going to do is up the resolution to 8k and charge you thousands of dollars extra for it.
There's a much better chance that you'll see incremental innovation and reduced cost than you'll see any major tech advances. That said, lots of small improvements compounding are significant and the cost improvements may be meaningful to cost-sensitive buyers or may allow buyers to jump up a size/resolution/form factor class.

Also, there's a huge inflection point because internet streaming of media is where all of the innovation investment is going. So, you're going to see much more emphasis on device-content partnerships (ie, the best content is best experienced on our device), including bundling of content subscriptions like the LGE-Disney Plus subscription deal that was recently announced. (Expect to see premium content-playback for the Tokyo Summer Olympic Games featured in Asia.) And, technical innovations are going to be marketed in the context of content that shows them off not in terms of numeric benchmark comparisons. In short, technology is going to move to the background.

On the show floor, but not likely in the keynotes, expect to see LGD and its TV partners market:

* Improved motion, especially motion transitions between colors not just grays
* Better 8K (than the other guys)
* Better uniformity
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post #15 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 10:46 AM
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I think they'll all try and keep things under wraps till CES in January

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post #16 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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I think they'll all try and keep things under wraps till CES in January

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Last year, LG released HDMI 2.1 specs on 2019 models ~10 days before CES.

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post #17 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 03:09 PM
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No information, but probably 120Hz BFI, but little else. That's my guess for next year's models.
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post #18 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 06:19 PM
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Oled tech is maxed out at this point, the only thing they are going to do is up the resolution to 8k and charge you thousands of dollars extra for it.
I’m going to assume most in this board are informed enough to recognize an ignorant statement when they see one.

The TV world took a big step backwards in the area of motion performance with the demise of Plasma in favor of LCD.

First-gen WOLED technology is also inherently persistence-based, like LCD, but between the 120Hz BFI LGD showcased at CES’19 but yanked from production at the 11th hour (meaning we’ll likely see it in 2020), their presentation of new faster backplane technology supporting [email protected], and their initiative to introduce CMPRT (Color Motion Picture Response Time) as an important new metric for evaluating displays, it’s clear LG has understood that WOLED offers the promise of delivering plasma-like if not CRT-like motion performance.

As identified by STL8K, here is the reference to CMPRT: https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...VHFp1-1/detail

And here is the reference to the new backplane supporting [email protected]:

https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...D2-1/classlist

To get a sense of where LG’s WOLED roadmap is headed, this white paper from NHK provides some useful insight: https://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/b...ture0074-1.pdf

(LG and NHK announced a partnership in 2018 and I suspect both of these upcoming presentations are the first evidence of that collaboration bearing fruit; https://www.google.com/amp/m.koreahe...20181207000442)

On the thread’s question of improvements to expect next year (as opposed to 2021 and beyond), the improved color gamut (and volume) from a new WOLED stack replacing yellow with green is a near-certainty and I think we’re almost certain to see 120Hz BFI. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that LGD will introduce a 4K backplane supporting 240Hz True Refresh rates which would then allow for the possibility of arbitrarily high BFI % and unlocking plasma-like impulse modes...

Truly delivering plasma-like and eventually CRT-like motion performance will require higher peak brightness levels and the increased efficiency of TADF or other high-efficiency blue as well as other OLED materials improvements will be key.

Those are unlikely to materialize next year but it is only a question of when, not if.

WOLEDs long-term roadmap couldn’t be brighter, and the only cloud on the horizon is whether LGD willl manage to survive the cash crunch they will be facing at least into 2023...

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post #19 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
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Originally Posted by bryantc View Post
Brightness and color volume increases are scheduled for after 2022.
Does LG ever hit these 'roadmap' targets? Few years ago the 'roadmap' said by 2019, the 10.5G plant would start ramping up production, it's close to end of 2019 and there is no 10.5G yet. TADF emitter was also being claimed to make it to oleds, we still haven't seen it. I would take all these LG 'roadmaps' with a big grain of salt , if they say 2022 for higher brightness and color volume, I would take that to be 2024 or later. And even when these supposed increases in brightness and color volume come, it's not going to be night and day. They claim 30% increase in brightness, which from the current 700-800 nit brightness of oleds would mean an increase to around 1000 nits, the panasonic GZ2000 already doees 1000 nits on some panels by manipulating the oled backplane. And as for increase in color volume, it's not like the increase is going to get oleds to do 90-100% Rec. 2020 volume (they'd have to get rid of the white subpixel if they want a drastic increase in color volume).
This is incorrect - sacrificing the white subpixel will increase (by ~33%) the fully-saturated brightness WOLED can deliver but will drastically reduce (by ~25%) the color volume WOLED can deliver...
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post #20 of 60 Old 11-19-2019, 07:14 PM
 
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This is incorrect - sacrificing the white subpixel will increase (by ~33%) the fully-saturated brightness WOLED can deliver but will drastically reduce (by ~25%) the color volume WOLED can deliver...
That is assuming that the peak white output using RGB stays where it is presently and they scrap the fourth white subpixel. The first step would be to improve the RGB filters so that they can output 700-800 nits by themself, beyond which they can drop the white subpixel leading to an overall improved volume.
Still some ways off and will have to be a step by step improvement but this (color volume) is one area that should be on lg's priority list. For HDR, it is a relevant metric just like peak brightness. if samsung's oled technology comes with better color volume out of the gate, it will push lg harder to improve in this area.

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post #21 of 60 Old 11-20-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I’m going to assume most in this board are informed enough to recognize an ignorant statement when they see one.

The TV world took a big step backwards in the area of motion performance with the demise of Plasma in favor of LCD.

First-gen WOLED technology is also inherently persistence-based, like LCD, but between the 120Hz BFI LGD showcased at CES’19 but yanked from production at the 11th hour (meaning we’ll likely see it in 2020), their presentation of new faster backplane technology supporting [email protected], and their initiative to introduce CMPRT (Color Motion Picture Response Time) as an important new metric for evaluating displays, it’s clear LG has understood that WOLED offers the promise of delivering plasma-like if not CRT-like motion performance.

As identified by STL8K, here is the reference to CMPRT: https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...VHFp1-1/detail

And here is the reference to the new backplane supporting [email protected]:

https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...D2-1/classlist

To get a sense of where LG’s WOLED roadmap is headed, this white paper from NHK provides some useful insight: https://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/b...ture0074-1.pdf

(LG and NHK announced a partnership in 2018 and I suspect both of these upcoming presentations are the first evidence of that collaboration bearing fruit; https://www.google.com/amp/m.koreahe...20181207000442)

On the thread’s question of improvements to expect next year (as opposed to 2021 and beyond), the improved color gamut (and volume) from a new WOLED stack replacing yellow with green is a near-certainty and I think we’re almost certain to see 120Hz BFI. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that LGD will introduce a 4K backplane supporting 240Hz True Refresh rates which would then allow for the possibility of arbitrarily high BFI % and unlocking plasma-like impulse modes...

Truly delivering plasma-like and eventually CRT-like motion performance will require higher peak brightness levels and the increased efficiency of TADF or other high-efficiency blue as well as other OLED materials improvements will be key.

Those are unlikely to materialize next year but it is only a question of when, not if.

WOLEDs long-term roadmap couldn’t be brighter, and the only cloud on the horizon is whether LGD willl manage to survive the cash crunch they will be facing at least into 2023...

You say my statement is ignorant then you ramble on about motion imporvements for a small amount of people who might have motion sensitivity issues and some color improvements that will be barley noticeable by most people. Dude you shot yourself in the foot by simply reinforcing what I said the tech has peaked nothing can be done apart from subtle tweaks here and there that wont make a difference for most people.
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post #22 of 60 Old 11-20-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by picturequality View Post
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m going to assume most in this board are informed enough to recognize an ignorant statement when they see one.

The TV world took a big step backwards in the area of motion performance with the demise of Plasma in favor of LCD.

First-gen WOLED technology is also inherently persistence-based, like LCD, but between the 120Hz BFI LGD showcased at CES&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;19 but yanked from production at the 11th hour (meaning we&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;ll likely see it in 2020), their presentation of new faster backplane technology supporting [email protected], and their initiative to introduce CMPRT (Color Motion Picture Response Time) as an important new metric for evaluating displays, it&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s clear LG has understood that WOLED offers the promise of delivering plasma-like if not CRT-like motion performance.

As identified by STL8K, here is the reference to CMPRT: https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...VHFp1-1/detail

And here is the reference to the new backplane supporting [email protected]:

https://confit.atlas.jp/guide/event/...D2-1/classlist

To get a sense of where LG&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s WOLED roadmap is headed, this white paper from NHK provides some useful insight: https://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/b...ture0074-1.pdf

(LG and NHK announced a partnership in 2018 and I suspect both of these upcoming presentations are the first evidence of that collaboration bearing fruit; https://www.google.com/amp/m.koreahe...20181207000442)

On the thread&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s question of improvements to expect next year (as opposed to 2021 and beyond), the improved color gamut (and volume) from a new WOLED stack replacing yellow with green is a near-certainty and I think we&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;re almost certain to see 120Hz BFI. I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m keeping my fingers crossed that LGD will introduce a 4K backplane supporting 240Hz True Refresh rates which would then allow for the possibility of arbitrarily high BFI % and unlocking plasma-like impulse modes...

Truly delivering plasma-like and eventually CRT-like motion performance will require higher peak brightness levels and the increased efficiency of TADF or other high-efficiency blue as well as other OLED materials improvements will be key.

Those are unlikely to materialize next year but it is only a question of when, not if.

WOLEDs long-term roadmap couldn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t be brighter, and the only cloud on the horizon is whether LGD willl manage to survive the cash crunch they will be facing at least into 2023...

You say my statement is ignorant then you ramble on about motion imporvements for a small amount of people who might have motion sensitivity issues and some color improvements that will be barley noticeable by most people. Dude you shot yourself in the foot by simply reinforcing what I said the tech has peaked nothing can be done apart from subtle tweaks here and there that wont make a difference for most people.
If the point you are trying to make is that current-generation WOLED delivers a TV/movie viewing experience that is essentially ‘perfect’ from the point of view of the average consumer, I can’t argue with you.

For those who game, enjoy fast-action live sports, or are interested to view 24fps cinema at home in double-shutter or triple-shutter projection mode, there are further improvements on the way...

And for everyone else, the roadmap will offer lower cost. Next year should deliver the first sub-$1000 WOLED (48”, probably from Vizio) and entry-level 65” WOLEDs should be approaching that price point by 2023 (when the new 10.5G fab is cranking full-speed).
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post #23 of 60 Old 11-20-2019, 11:55 AM
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[QUOTE=Menarini;58846182]
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This is incorrect - sacrificing the white subpixel will increase (by ~33%) the fully-saturated brightness WOLED can deliver but will drastically reduce (by ~25%) the color volume WOLED can deliver...
That is assuming that the peak white output using RGB stays where it is presently and they scrap the fourth white subpixel.

No, I already stated that eliminating the white subpixel would deliver a 33% increase in fully-saturated output (which also means peak white output without using the white subpixel). The issue is that fully 50% of the white lumens emitted at peak white are coming though white subpixel while the other 50% are coming through the colored subpixels (~1/3 or 16.7% through each color). So while the ‘walls’ (perimiter) of your color volume tent are 33% higher, the center pole is 17% lower (50% - 33%) so peak whites are 17% lower and overall color volume has not increased and probably decreased.

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The first step would be to improve the RGB filters so that they can output 700-800 nits by themself, beyond which they can drop the white subpixel leading to an overall improved volume.
For sure, improving the efficiency of the color filters would be great, but unlikely to happen. Moving from conventional color filters to Quantum-Dot-Color-Converters, as Samsung is doing with QD-BOLED) is a much more promising way to increase output levels, but not obvious whether there is anyway to effectively use QDCC with White light (easier with a single incoming wavelength). The increases offered by moving to a high-efficiency Blue OLED emitter and beyond that, intrinsic increases to OLED efficiency through materials used in the stack, offer a clearer, shorter-term, and lower-risk pathway to increasing output levels that changing the color filter/conversion efficiency.

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Still some ways off and will have to be a step by step improvement but this (color volume) is one area that should be on lg's priority list. For HDR, it is a relevant metric just like peak brightness.
I don’t think there is any question that increasing color volume is a high priority for LGD. They will continue to incrementally push color gamut as well as peak output levels, both of which improve color volume.

My only disagreement with you is that you seem to believe eliminating the white subpixel will eventually be something LGD will want to do to increase color volume and that is unlikely to happen (at least until LGD can achieve 10,000 nits through each colored subpixel).

Eliminating the white subpixel will always reduce color volume, so it’ll only happen when volume is maximized without using a white subpixel and there is no value in having even more volume/peak white output.

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if samsung's oled technology comes with better color volume out of the gate, it will push lg harder to improve in this area.
When High-efficiency blue is industrialized and in production, Samsung’s QD-BOLED may threaten LG’s WOLED on color volume, but unfortunately, the first generation based on Florescent Blue is unlikely to match WOLED on either peak output levels or color volume.

But you are correct, while LGD wants to focus all of their attention on production expansion and driving down cost to expand market penetration, Samsung and their QD-BOLED initiative will push LGD not to get too complacent and allow WOLED innovation to stall.

Gamut is fundamental, which is why LGDs moving away from a yellow OLED layer to green is a big deal.

Volume and peak output levels are essentially a trade off against lifetime and burn-in and will continue to improve as OLED material science matures.

Looking out over the next decade, WOLED achieving peak brightness levels of 10,000 nits (at least in impulse mode) seems more likely than achieving 100% of Rec.2020...
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post #24 of 60 Old 11-20-2019, 11:56 AM
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If the point you are trying to make is that current-generation WOLED delivers a TV/movie viewing experience that is essentially ‘perfect’ from the point of view of the average consumer, I can’t argue with you.

For those who game, enjoy fast-action live sports, or are interested to view 24fps cinema at home in double-shutter or triple-shutter projection mode, there are further improvements on the way...

And for everyone else, the roadmap will offer lower cost. Next year should deliver the first sub-$1000 WOLED (48”, probably from Vizio) and entry-level 65” WOLEDs should be approaching that price point by 2023 (when the new 10.5G fab is cranking full-speed).
I thought that many people (can't recall if you were one) were insisting that top panel emission and >1000 NITs was coming in 2020.
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post #25 of 60 Old 11-20-2019, 11:08 PM
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If the point you are trying to make is that current-generation WOLED delivers a TV/movie viewing experience that is essentially &#226;€˜perfect&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f; from the point of view of the average consumer, I can&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t argue with you.

For those who game, enjoy fast-action live sports, or are interested to view 24fps cinema at home in double-shutter or triple-shutter projection mode, there are further improvements on the way...

And for everyone else, the roadmap will offer lower cost. Next year should deliver the first sub-$1000 WOLED (48&#226;€&#194;, probably from Vizio) and entry-level 65&#226;€&#194; WOLEDs should be approaching that price point by 2023 (when the new 10.5G fab is cranking full-speed).
I thought that many people (can't recall if you were one) were insisting that top panel emission and >1000 NITs was coming in 2020.
True - primarily because LGD stated that they were developing Top Emission because it was needed to deliver 65” 8K WOLEDs with sufficient brightness, When they demonstrated a 65” 8K panel at CES ‘19, I and others assumed that meant Top Emission WOLED was ready for rollout in 2020.

Then, when it was confirmed by multiple sources including LGD themselves that LGD has found other improvements to deliver 65” 8K WOLEDs with sufficient brightness based on bottom emission, I changed my tune.

Bottom emission is less expensive to manufacture than top emission, so LGD will only resort to top-emission when it is a last resort to deliver expected performance for an important market segment.

Samsung QD-BOLED will be based on top-emission because the fluorescent blue they are using delivers such poor efficiency. And as a result, Samsung’s (initial) QD-BOLED will be more costly to manufacture than LGD’s WOLED...
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post #26 of 60 Old 11-21-2019, 07:52 AM
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True - primarily because LGD stated that they were developing Top Emission because it was needed to deliver 65” 8K WOLEDs with sufficient brightness, When they demonstrated a 65” 8K panel at CES ‘19, I and others assumed that meant Top Emission WOLED was ready for rollout in 2020.

Then, when it was confirmed by multiple sources including LGD themselves that LGD has found other improvements to deliver 65” 8K WOLEDs with sufficient brightness based on bottom emission, I changed my tune.

Bottom emission is less expensive to manufacture than top emission, so LGD will only resort to top-emission when it is a last resort to deliver expected performance for an important market segment.

Samsung QD-BOLED will be based on top-emission because the fluorescent blue they are using delivers such poor efficiency. And as a result, Samsung’s (initial) QD-BOLED will be more costly to manufacture than LGD’s WOLED...
It's good to approach any roadmap information from LG or anyone else for that matter with extreme levels of skepticism. At this point it seems like improved BFI, lower pricing and a few other things might be all that's really on tap for 2020 sets but time will tell.

If anything it seems that LGs "risky venture" in betting the farm on OLED is starting to pay real dividends. They went all in on the technology when nearly every other manufacturer scoffed at it. Yet, here we are nearly 10 years later with nothing on the immediate horizon that can dethrone what OLED is capable of.
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post #27 of 60 Old 11-21-2019, 09:35 AM
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Anyone think they' ll put Display Port on the upcoming "small" displays ?
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post #28 of 60 Old 11-21-2019, 09:57 AM
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I have a question for the experts here, related to the improvements on OLED technology. When they released the Z9 8K I expected it to be significantly brighter than the 4K OLEDs. But, the brightness is very similar. OLED being emissive display, I thought 33 million pixels emitting light should overall make it brighter(even after accounting for a slightly larger size). In the LCD, it is the opposite and you need higher brightness LEDs to push light through more (transmissive) pixels. What is the physics I am missing? Thanks
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post #29 of 60 Old 11-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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AFAIK, emissive displays have never been as bright as LCDs.

Sony 55A9F
LG 55B6
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post #30 of 60 Old 11-21-2019, 10:44 AM
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i guess we will see 8k in 77 inch panels and would gladly trade it for a burn in solution...but that seems impossible in this tech
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