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post #1 of 18 Old 02-06-2020, 10:59 PM - Thread Starter
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OLED (or other) that passes lossless audio Via eARC

Good day,

Which TVs on the market will pass lossless audio formats via eARC when playing content via apps (plex, built in player etc) not just connected devices?


I own an LG C9 OLED and have been in discussion with LG regarding the lack of multichannel LPCM (in total) and failure to pass lossless Audio streams through apps on the TV - it only works with connected devices.

The troubleshooting team lead indicated today that I can return the TV if I wish, based on it failing to meet what were advertised or expected functions (I'm in Australia for ref on consumer laws).

LG have stated the LPCM will be fixed "this year" as feedback in that call.
LG have not explicitly stated the lossless audio issue will be fixed though the customer rep assures it "will absolutely happen and can happen".

I would like to know which other TV's on the market support lossless formats via eARC (for plex etc not just connected devices) - preferably OLED, but another type with v.high image and black level quality would be ok.

Reading a review on the new CX model for 2020, the same problem is present... so I'm not enthused about a fix. I love the UI and control and image though so this is frustrating :/
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post #2 of 18 Old 02-06-2020, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrobins View Post
Which TVs on the market will pass lossless audio formats via eARC when playing content via apps (plex, built in player etc) not just connected devices?
I am not aware of any TV that has apps that support lossless audio. The 2018/2019 Sony TV eARC models have the same problem - Plex (or other apps) not delivering lossless audio via eARC.

We just have to wait.
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post #3 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
I am not aware of any TV that has apps that support lossless audio. The 2018/2019 Sony TV eARC models have the same problem - Plex (or other apps) not delivering lossless audio via eARC.

We just have to wait.
Cheers,

would be really handy if manufacturers would state whether they can or are going to correct it :/
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post #4 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 07:44 AM
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Cheers,

would be really handy if manufacturers would state whether they can or are going to correct it :/
Unfortunately other than something like plex playing a UHD rip, there likely hasn't been any use for it, so it is probably treated as not a legitimate use case just like the having a faster than 100Mbit ethernet port.

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post #5 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 07:48 AM
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Are we sure that streamed media from built in TV apps (or connected sticks, etc) is lossless? I thought streamed Atmos was lossy.
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post #6 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 07:54 AM
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Are we sure that streamed media from built in TV apps (or connected sticks, etc) is lossless? I thought streamed Atmos was lossy.
Netflix (and other streaming services) audio is always lossy, so yes. Lossless audio would mean using more bandwidth for audio alone than they use for the entire stream now, as far as I can tell. That's a lot of bandwidth for a minimal audio quality gain. I suspect they would increase the video bit rate before increasing the audio bit rate by that much.

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post #7 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
I am not aware of any TV that has apps that support lossless audio. The 2018/2019 Sony TV eARC models have the same problem - Plex (or other apps) not delivering lossless audio via eARC.

We just have to wait.
That's incorrect. Do you own a sony A9G or A9F? When you play via the usb port, the tv uses the built in media player app. Play any movie or video with lossless audio. These sony's can pass true hd and master audio to a eARC compatible sound processor.

As for the built in video streaming apps like NF or prime not supporting lossless audio, that isnt a sony tv limitation but the fact that no streaming app has support for lossless audio, they all only do lossy audio as of now.
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post #8 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Netflix (and other streaming services) audio is always lossy, so yes. Lossless audio would mean using more bandwidth for audio alone than they use for the entire stream now, as far as I can tell. That's a lot of bandwidth for a minimal audio quality gain. I suspect they would increase the video bit rate before increasing the audio bit rate by that much.
It's no minimal audio gain, people who say that simply dont have a proper surround setup in place, if you have dedicated ceiling speakers, it's a noticeable difference. And doing lossless audio would be no more than 10-15 mbps for audio. Dolby true hd can go maximum 18 mbps and on most blu ray discs it's lower than that. So streaming services can do it if they increase some server bandwidth.
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post #9 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
It's no minimal audio gain, people who say that simply dont have a proper surround setup in place, if you have dedicated ceiling speakers, it's a noticeable difference. And doing lossless audio would be no more than 10-15 mbps for audio. Dolby true hd can go maximum 18 mbps and on most blu ray discs it's lower than that. So streaming services can do it if they increase some server bandwidth.
The highest bit rate of a netflix stream right now is 15Mbps for the entire thing. So lossless audio would use about that much just for audio (while right now I believe they are using 640Kbps for audio). So it would double the bandwidth to move to lossless audio. Not everyone has the bandwidth for that on their internet connection. Maybe at some point netflix will consider it, but I doubt they consider it that important. After all most consumers seem to think MP3 is just fine and don't care that it isn't CD quality. Maybe they could add another higher price that adds lossless audio at double the bandwidth for those that would like it.

Personally for stuff I care about I get the UHD rather than watch it on netflix.

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post #10 of 18 Old 02-07-2020, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
The highest bit rate of a netflix stream right now is 15Mbps for the entire thing. So lossless audio would use about that much just for audio (while right now I believe they are using 640Kbps for audio). So it would double the bandwidth to move to lossless audio. Not everyone has the bandwidth for that on their internet connection. Maybe at some point netflix will consider it, but I doubt they consider it that important. After all most consumers seem to think MP3 is just fine and don't care that it isn't CD quality. Maybe they could add another higher price that adds lossless audio at double the bandwidth for those that would like it.

Personally for stuff I care about I get the UHD rather than watch it on netflix.
That's what i have wanted them to do, since lossless true hd/atmos will increase some server bandwidth costs, they could offer a premium plus or some similar a plan that people could choose. those who use upfiring speakers, soundbars, tv speakers would probably not bother with it, those with dedicated ceiling speakers in place could opt for it to get higher sound quality. Currently there is no indication from streaming service providers of doing lossless audio, but if someone gets to supporting it in the future, netflix would be the first.
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Stop derailing my thread please.

I'm aware streaming services do not provide lossless audio. Debate it elsewhere .

Specifically I was referencing apps that play locally stored digital content - inbuilt player, Plex et al.

Thank you for the update ref Sony and the USB drive. It suggest that the issue is likely one of how apps and software are enabled, not the hardware. The point that Sony also does not play lossless via network connected movies and apps is correct (I do not know if Sony have expressed an intent to change this).


The inbuilt video player on the LG will not play any of my MKV content (not sure why.... I encode using makemkv).
Using the LG app on laptop or device to cast to the LG C9 results in down-conversion as well.

Last edited by mgrobins; 02-07-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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post #12 of 18 Old 04-06-2020, 12:27 AM
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Bitstream via eARC lossless audio content from internal apps

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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
That's incorrect. Do you own a sony A9G or A9F? When you play via the usb port, the tv uses the built in media player app. Play any movie or video with lossless audio. These sony's can pass true hd and master audio to a eARC compatible sound processor.

As for the built in video streaming apps like NF or prime not supporting lossless audio, that isnt a sony tv limitation but the fact that no streaming app has support for lossless audio, they all only do lossy audio as of now.
Rysa

Have you tested for real on AG9 TV to playback a lossless audio content via USB and bitstream audio through earc to a compatible receiver?
I'm asking you because i'm a new owner and i'm thinking about buy a new AVR with eARC but in few thread/forum and also on sony's website


The audio lossless content via internal apps (USB et al) in not sent via earc. The built in speakers ad far as i know could reproduce it by decoding it (as LG C9 does) but cannot send bitstream via eARC).

Thanks
I
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post #13 of 18 Old 04-06-2020, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Francesco Masotta View Post
Rysa

Have you tested for real on AG9 TV to playback a lossless audio content via USB and bitstream audio through earc to a compatible receiver?
I'm asking you because i'm a new owner and i'm thinking about buy a new AVR with eARC but in few thread/forum and also on sony's website


The audio lossless content via internal apps (USB et al) in not sent via earc. The built in speakers ad far as i know could reproduce it by decoding it (as LG C9 does) but cannot send bitstream via eARC).

Thanks
I
What i can tell is i have tested a 4k hdr rip containing the truehd audio codec loaded onto a WD external hdd hooked to the a9g usb port on the back and it did work on the eARC downstream signal. I cannot say with dts master audio or uncompressed LPCM as those i haven't personally tested. For making truehd bitstream work, i had to change some settings on sony, eARC has to be set auto and digital audio out to auto 1, at first i thought digital audio out is only meant for spdif optical but it seems to have an effect on what the tv outputs using eARC/ARC. After changing these settings on sony and having my pre pro set to TV input, direct sound mode and rebooting both devices, i could get the truehd logo on my pre pro. However know that, from accounts of various people, eARC/ARC working successfully in your system has also got to do with your pre pro (or AV rec) brand or model, certain models have been reported to have problems. In case you aren't able to make it work and must play rips containing lossless audio from a USB drive, a workaround is using a 4k blu ray player daisy chained through the pre pro (or AV rec) to the tv, just connect the usb drive to the blu ray player's usb port, that will avoid any eARC/ARC sound problems.

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Last edited by Rysa_105; 04-06-2020 at 02:00 AM.
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post #14 of 18 Old 04-06-2020, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
What i can tell is i have tested a 4k hdr rip containing the truehd audio codec loaded onto a WD external hdd hooked to the a9g usb port on the back and it did work on the eARC downstream signal. I cannot say with dts master audio or uncompressed LPCM as those i haven't personally tested. For making truehd bitstream work, i had to change some settings on sony, eARC has to be set auto and digital audio out to auto 1, at first i thought digital audio out is only meant for spdif optical but it seems to have an effect on what the tv outputs using eARC/ARC. After changing these settings on sony and having my pre pro set to TV input, direct sound mode and rebooting both devices, i could get the truehd logo on my pre pro. However know that, from accounts of various people, eARC/ARC working successfully in your system has also got to do with your pre pro (or AV rec) brand or model, certain models have been reported to have problems. In case you aren't able to make it work and must play rips containing lossless audio from a USB drive, a workaround is using a 4k blu ray player daisy chained through the pre pro (or AV rec) to the tv, just connect the usb drive to the blu ray player's usb port, that will avoid any eARC/ARC sound problems.
Thank you Rysa

Did you also give a try with a Atmos content?Or could you do the same test from DNLA or PLEX instead of USB?

Last edited by Francesco Masotta; 04-06-2020 at 12:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by mgrobins View Post
Stop derailing my thread please.

I'm aware streaming services do not provide lossless audio. Debate it elsewhere .

Specifically I was referencing apps that play locally stored digital content - inbuilt player, Plex et al.

Thank you for the update ref Sony and the USB drive. It suggest that the issue is likely one of how apps and software are enabled, not the hardware. The point that Sony also does not play lossless via network connected movies and apps is correct (I do not know if Sony have expressed an intent to change this).


The inbuilt video player on the LG will not play any of my MKV content (not sure why.... I encode using makemkv).
Using the LG app on laptop or device to cast to the LG C9 results in down-conversion as well.
Hi mgrobins

Are you sure about different behaviour of usb and Plex/DNLA? Have you tried to play UHD rip over network to obtain lossless audio from eArc AVR?
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post #16 of 18 Old 04-07-2020, 02:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Francesco Masotta View Post
Hi mgrobins

Are you sure about different behaviour of usb and Plex/DNLA? Have you tried to play UHD rip over network to obtain lossless audio from eArc AVR?
Hi Francesco. Welcome to the conversation .

I am 100% sure the LG can only play lossless audio from connected devices.

I've described why in discussion with a few other knowledgeable folks in a thread I'll link below where the Service manual provided information about why. The processor in the TV only outputs ARC. There is a bridging chip (HAWK) that provides the HDMI 2.1 functionality and the eARC. it has 4 PHY IO channels linking it to the LG SOC (CPU) and currently LG deny that their is a way in software for the lossless audio from apps to be passed to the eARC output on the bridging chip. More specifically they tried blaming it on the HDMI standard until I sent them their own schematics for the TV.

Some useful threads for you:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...fo-thread.html

This thread is the best collection of full information and maintained by the very committed DFA973
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...ware-more.html
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post #17 of 18 Old 04-07-2020, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrobins View Post
Hi Francesco. Welcome to the conversation .

I am 100% sure the LG can only play lossless audio from connected devices.

I've described why in discussion with a few other knowledgeable folks in a thread I'll link below where the Service manual provided information about why. The processor in the TV only outputs ARC. There is a bridging chip (HAWK) that provides the HDMI 2.1 functionality and the eARC. it has 4 PHY IO channels linking it to the LG SOC (CPU) and currently LG deny that their is a way in software for the lossless audio from apps to be passed to the eARC output on the bridging chip. More specifically they tried blaming it on the HDMI standard until I sent them their own schematics for the TV.

Some useful threads for you:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...fo-thread.html

This thread is the best collection of full information and maintained by the very committed DFA973
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...ware-more.html
Thanks mgrobins for the comprehensive reply

As for the Sony AG9 TV can the same be said? lossless audio is not passed through eARC to the AVR by internal apps? Has anyone tried for example with PLEX?
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post #18 of 18 Old 04-07-2020, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesco Masotta View Post
As for the Sony AG9 TV can the same be said?
Yes. Sony TVs have the same limitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francesco Masotta View Post
lossless audio is not passed through eARC to the AVR by internal apps?
Yes, not passed. Only lossy ones are passed.
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