My Plasma MAY have died.. :-( Need an OLED that can handle Motion as good or better! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Question My Plasma MAY have died.. :-( Need an OLED that can handle Motion as good or better!

Am I dreaming or is there an OLED that can handle motion as well as my 65" GT50 Plasma? I watch sports (when available) and can't stand motion blur. Is there a 65" OLED out there can can duplicate or better the motion handling?



I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with my Plasma, but want to be prepared if I can't get it fixed.
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post #2 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:29 AM
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Ya ur dreaming. plasma has MPRT of about 1.8 milliseconds. oled with black frame insertion engaged is still more than double of that. sports looked fantastic on plasma. and oled also has the issue of inherent motion stutter because of the response time. i think that among currently available tv, high end lcd's are slightly better than oled with motion performance. if you want to replace plasma with oled, it will be a matter of adjusting your eyes to the motion, which will initially look choppy to you when watching sports. the core picture quality and contrast will be an upgrade over plasma.

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post #3 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:32 AM
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Watching this thread as I'm curious to see what others think, in a similar boat with an 8 almost 9 year old plasma. For me its about getting something a little lighter and easier to wall mount. I'm debating between the A9G, LGC9 / CX or waiting a little bit longer for something like an A9H. Most reviews I've seen HDTV Test, RTINGS.com, or otherwise seem to suggest there isn't much more than subtle differences between the LG/Sony, and its just a matter of how much you're wanting to spend.
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post #4 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
Ya ur dreaming. plasma has MPRT of about 1.8 milliseconds. oled with black frame insertion engaged is still more than double of that. sports looked fantastic on plasma. and oled also has the issue of inherent motion stutter because of the response time. i think that among currently available tv, high end lcd's are slightly better than oled with motion performance. if you want to replace plasma with oled, it will be a matter of adjusting your eyes to the motion, which will initially look choppy to you when watching sports. the core picture quality and contrast will be an upgrade over plasma.
I'm not sure that an LCD is any faster than an OLED, and in some cases response times will be much higher, Q90R has a 100% response time of 9.6ms whereas the LG C9 has a 100% response time of 2.4ms... (source RTINGS.com). Maybe we are talking two different things, but from what I've seen with my own eyes, OLED has more natural looking colors and equal if not better motion handling than QLEDs.
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post #5 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:54 AM
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The best 2019 OLED model for motion is the Sony A9G. For 2020 models, the A9H is not available yet, so it is unknown how Sony and LG will stack up.

Sony A9G, Oppo 205, Parasound JC2, Parasound A21, Sonus Faber Olympica IIIs
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post #6 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
Ya ur dreaming. plasma has MPRT of about 1.8 milliseconds. oled with black frame insertion engaged is still more than double of that. sports looked fantastic on plasma. and oled also has the issue of inherent motion stutter because of the response time. i think that among currently available tv, high end lcd's are slightly better than oled with motion performance. if you want to replace plasma with oled, it will be a matter of adjusting your eyes to the motion, which will initially look choppy to you when watching sports. the core picture quality and contrast will be an upgrade over plasma.
Would the motion in the video be what going from a plasma to an OLED would look like (watch the crowd in the stands)? The video was from a problem I was having with motion last fall on my GT30. It ended up being a loose HDMI cable going from the D* HR54 to an OPPO-103. As a sports fan, my biggest concern going from my plasma to the 65" CX is adapting to the difference in motion.



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post #7 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watsonte View Post
I'm not sure that an LCD is any faster than an OLED, and in some cases response times will be much higher, Q90R has a 100% response time of 9.6ms whereas the LG C9 has a 100% response time of 2.4ms... (source RTINGS.com). Maybe we are talking two different things, but from what I've seen with my own eyes, OLED has more natural looking colors and equal if not better motion handling than QLEDs.
Ya two different things, what you are quoting with 100% response time is the pixel response time , how quickly a pixel can flip from one color to another, pixel response time is faster on oled. I was talking MPRT (or motion persistence), high end lcd's are a bit better (and 120hz BFI also works better on them), im not referring samsung qleds , samsung lcd's are not known for motion, by high end lcd's i mean tv's like sony Z9D/Z9F/Z9G.

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post #8 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
Would the motion in the video be what going from a plasma to an OLED would look like (watch the crowd in the stands)? The video was from a problem I was having with motion last fall on my GT30. It ended up being a loose HDMI cable going from the D* HR54 to an OPPO-103. As a sports fan, my biggest concern going from my plasma to the 65" CX is adapting to the difference in motion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Yv...ature=youtu.be
Not that level of choppy, but certainly with camera pans motion won't look as smooth to you as it does on a properly working plasma. You can engage some interpolation to make it look smoother, at the expense of putting up with the ocassional interpolation artifact. on a side note, among oleds sony's handle the motion a bit better than competing brands (even when you have interpolation or bfi processing turned off).
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post #9 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysa_105 View Post
Ya two different things, what you are quoting with 100% response time is the pixel response time , how quickly a pixel can flip from one color to another, pixel response time is faster on oled. I was talking MPRT (or motion persistence), high end lcd's are a bit better (and 120hz BFI also works better on them), im not referring samsung qleds , samsung lcd's are not known for motion, by high end lcd's i mean tv's like sony Z9D/Z9F/Z9G.



So, are you saying a Z9D/Z9F/Z9G LCD would be better than a Sony OLED when it comes to Motion?
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post #10 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 07:23 AM
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I was a plasma fanboy, but my Sony A1E does motion very close to my old plasma. As good? Not quite, but after a week with it, i never looked back.

Sony A1E OLED 4K Ultra H


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post #11 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 07:34 AM
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That OLED does not exist. Plasma motion is so good because is impulse-based and has low persistence. MPRT is around 2 ms. OLED by default (being sample and hold and not impulse driven) is 16 ms. With black frame insertion that MPRT goes down to about 8 ms. A noticeable improvement in motion resolution but not quite to the level of plasma. You will notice this most with live sports. Sports still looks good on OLED with BFI, but it doesn't quite have that same real life, "looking out a window" look that plasma had.

Best bet is to just get a Sony OLED. While it has definite room for improvement, I'm satisfied with the motion of my A9F compared to my old Panasonic PZ85 plasma.

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post #12 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 08:00 AM
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OLED and LCD use Sample & Hold for motion so motion will be similar. OLED has faster pixel response, LCD has better motion resolution and somewhat better motion improvement options like some Sony FALD LCDs that use zones to get better motion. OLED has no zones so such method is not a option..
Both have native 300/400 lines of motion resolution, using tricks, motion improvement options like Motion Interpolation and Black Frame Insertion, which will be 100/120Hz in 2020 OLEDs which is a improvement, OLED can do max 600 lines of motion resolution, LCD can do 1080 lines of motion resolution or even more.
Display Motion Blur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_motion_blur
BFI
https://www.cnet.com/news/black-frame-insertion-busting-blur-from-oculus-to-lcd-tvs/
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post #13 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 01:26 PM
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After a few months with my C9, the only time I notice stutter that's way different to my old Kuro anymore is when high contrast edges are panning quickly, like buildings against a sunlit sky or something similar like that, and then only in 24fps content. So it's a combination of OLED motion performance and normal 24hz stutter for me on high contrast edges.
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post #14 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassett72 View Post
Am I dreaming or is there an OLED that can handle motion as well as my 65" GT50 Plasma? I watch sports (when available) and can't stand motion blur. Is there a 65" OLED out there can can duplicate or better the motion handling?
This is to add to the many answers you have already received. I'm coming from a 55" VT30. About a year and a half ago I decided to "upgrade" and got a 65C8. Then a replacement, then another one. It's a very long story with (fortunately) a happy ending, but all the OLEDs are long gone. The television TV has been replaced by a mint quality second-hand 65VT50. It's superb. The VT30 went into the basement for gaming. And my craving for "high end" experience has been satisfied by a JVC X790 with a 135" screen. Insane amount of work since my wife and I did it all by ourselves but well worth it. We could not stand the OLED for the following reasons:

  1. Perfect black is only perfect when full black, and I mean 0% IRE. Anything above that up to 15% or so was abysmal and full of unwatchable grey blotches.
  2. The HDR is UNWATCHABLE in a light controlled theatre environment. You need sunglasses to stop your retinas from being shattered. Solution? Contrast lighting. So much for the infinite dynamic range...
  3. Of interest to you: motion. It was simply ABYSMAL. For example, watching the latest Grinch movie on the OLED made all of us completely nauseated. It was unwatchable. And this is just one of many examples. In comparison, the plasmas are simply superb. And the JVC is excellent (except for the loss of motion detail).
  4. Quality control. What wquality control? All three units had unacceptable issues with blotching, stuck flashing pixels or, in one case a vertical green row of pixels illuminating under specific APL conditions.


So we gave-up on the OLED and are simply delighted with the refreshed plasma upstairs and the full theatre setup in the basement.
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post #15 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 04:43 PM
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My Plasma MAY have died.. :-( Need an OLED that can handle Motion as good or better!

Found a used 65zt60 a few hours away from me can’t wait to get it this weekend . Questioned myself why I sold mine 3 years ago for oled, biggest mistake. There is something about the stutter or refresh rate , it just sucks . The tech sucks have to use tricks and motion settings to even get it close to plasma . Plasma don’t have to use any motion settings . Damn u Panasonic for stopping plasma.. damn you

Tvs feel like microwaves these days , they just aren’t made as good as they used to be .

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post #16 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 05:28 PM
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lol
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post #17 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 08:50 PM
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Exclamation You might want to wait...

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Originally Posted by watsonte View Post
Watching this thread as I'm curious to see what others think, in a similar boat with an 8 almost 9 year old plasma. For me its about getting something a little lighter and easier to wall mount. I'm debating between the A9G, LGC9 / CX or waiting a little bit longer for something like an A9H. Most reviews I've seen HDTV Test, RTINGS.com, or otherwise seem to suggest there isn't much more than subtle differences between the LG/Sony, and its just a matter of how much you're wanting to spend.
Yea, I have the 50"GT50 and a 50"VT20. I am waiting out the SONY A9H (maybe July or August ? 3rd Qtr.) I would like the additional processing speed AND a newer backlit remote. Waited almost 10 years to replace that VT20...I can wait another 3-4 months.
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post #18 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 08:56 PM
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Question What exactly is the video?

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Originally Posted by Aliens View Post
Would the motion in the video be what going from a plasma to an OLED would look like (watch the crowd in the stands)? The video was from a problem I was having with motion last fall on my GT30. It ended up being a loose HDMI cable going from the D* HR54 to an OPPO-103. As a sports fan, my biggest concern going from my plasma to the 65" CX is adapting to the difference in motion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-Yv...ature=youtu.be
Sooo, what exactly is the video (Packers video with Rodgers) we are looking at ? (i.e. what does this represent?)
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post #19 of 98 Old 04-09-2020, 09:43 PM
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Oled owner here, my previous displays were two VT60. You will not get an Oled or LCD that handles better motion than a plasma. Acceptable ? Yes, better? No.
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post #20 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post
Sooo, what exactly is the video (Packers video with Rodgers) we are looking at ? (i.e. what does this represent?)
When I was experiencing bad motion problems, I recorded that game (just as an example) of what I was seeing to show others in the DirecTV thread in hopes I could get an answer as to why I was experiencing the problem. Was it my HR54 or something on my end? It ended up being on my end with a loose HDMI cable.

Sometimes videos on the internet don't do a good job of conveying what we see at home, but I thought that one did a good job of showing the unevenness of the panning. Some people didn't see that much of a problem, while others could tell something wasn't right. Once I tightened that cable, if I would have been able to capture that same play, the difference in panning would have been much different. Because people who come from a plasma seem to notice more motion on their OLED, I wanted to see if that video was a good representative of what I could expect to see if I bought one.
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post #21 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post
After a few months with my C9, the only time I notice stutter that's way different to my old Kuro anymore is when high contrast edges are panning quickly, like buildings against a sunlit sky or something similar like that, and then only in 24fps content. So it's a combination of OLED motion performance and normal 24hz stutter for me on high contrast edges.
I don't have an LG, but there should be a motion interpolation setting that fixes this problem without ill effects.

Actually the manufacturers should consider making interpolation non-defeatable (at a low level), given the prejudice against it. Maybe some already do...it would explain Sony's mysterious "better motion", hmm?
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post #22 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 04:39 AM
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Honestly it’s just the tech it’s sample and hold. They can throw all the motion settings known to man at it and it won’t be comparable to plasma. Unfortunately that’s why to me ( and just my opinion ) oled has reached its end in what they can do with it .


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post #23 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 05:03 AM
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Plasma was like tube TVs the phosphors got pulsed to brighten up and then decayed until pulsed again. LCD/OLED are essentially on until they are turned off. It would be possible to better simulate by better BFI. The BFI would have to be a fade to black to better simulate phosphor decay.

Remember when people used to complain about green trails on their PDPs since green decayed slower than red/blue and showed up on fast moving objects on a black background? No TV technology is perfect at all things.

I would suggest going to a Magnolia BB where they have a section of TVs running things other than the BB standard loop and see if the motion bothers you on various TVs before you buy. As the DLP rainbow discussions has shown, people see motion artifacts in different ways. What bothers you will probably be different from someone else, so you have to make the best decision based on what you see.
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post #24 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post
I don't have an LG, but there should be a motion interpolation setting that fixes this problem without ill effects.

Actually the manufacturers should consider making interpolation non-defeatable (at a low level), given the prejudice against it. Maybe some already do...it would explain Sony's mysterious "better motion", hmm?
I honestly can't find a non-judder trumotion setting that doesn't bother me as I'm very sensitive to seeing motion interpolation artifacts and SOE. I know a setting of Trumotion User at 0:0 when the C9 first released was suggested, but I honestly can't tell any difference between that and Trumotion off, and since I'm not sure if Trumotion actually disables Real Cinema at that setting I've left it completely off. My setup going through my AVR also means I'd need to manually turn Trumotion off when I game and then turn it back on for film content which is just a hassle. Like I said, for some reason high contrast edges are the only times it bothers me.
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post #25 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teiresias View Post
I honestly can't find a non-judder trumotion setting that doesn't bother me as I'm very sensitive to seeing motion interpolation artifacts and SOE. I know a setting of Trumotion User at 0:0 when the C9 first released was suggested, but I honestly can't tell any difference between that and Trumotion off, and since I'm not sure if Trumotion actually disables Real Cinema at that setting I've left it completely off. My setup going through my AVR also means I'd need to manually turn Trumotion off when I game and then turn it back on for film content which is just a hassle. Like I said, for some reason high contrast edges are the only times it bothers me.

Let me spare you, I have spent literally hours in front of this oled tv , hours . Probably wasted 1-2 years of my life and gained 30 lbs. there is no motion setting that will fix anything. It’s the “superior” technology that’s the problem . If u have a plasma don’t change , don’t do nothing if ur happy with it .


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post #26 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 07:49 AM
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I have a 77 inch c9 that will be delivered next week as an upgrade from my 50inch Panasonic plasma. Now my excitement at the upgrade has dissipated as I watch a lot of sports (and movies) and I am very sensitive to motion judder
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post #27 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pBora View Post
I have a 77 inch c9 that will be delivered next week as an upgrade from my 50inch Panasonic plasma. Now my excitement at the upgrade has dissipated as I watch a lot of sports (and movies) and I am very sensitive to motion judder

Oh man don’t let this thread take away the excitement , some of us are just really
Really picky and I love to complain . I’m sure ur going to love it !


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post #28 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manoj Mohan View Post
Let me spare you, I have spent literally hours in front of this oled tv , hours . Probably wasted 1-2 years of my life and gained 30 lbs. there is no motion setting that will fix anything. It’s the “superior” technology that’s the problem . If u have a plasma don’t change , don’t do nothing if ur happy with it .
I agree if you're happy and don't have to spend the money, keep on keeping on with the plasma, but I can't really say I agree with that if you're implying the plasma is 100% better than the modern OLEDs. Motion is different, and the specific case I've been talking about is the only time it even jumps to mind that there's any difference. In every other aspect, size, PQ, brightness, etc the C9 is superior to my old 50" Kuro. It's not like the Kuro was completely flawless either, my screen coating had streaks on it that didn't bother me terribly but manifested in DSE very similar to the banding on OLEDs in the way it manifested on the image, and near the end my Kuro had developed the magenta cast to the blacks until I did the voltage adjustment and got it kind of back into normal territory.

I certainly do not regret in the least moving on from my Kuro to my C9 aside from accepting that the TV industry is not what it used to be and I doubt I ever get ten years out of a TV again.
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post #29 of 98 Old 04-10-2020, 09:44 AM
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I agree if you're happy and don't have to spend the money, keep on keeping on with the plasma, but I can't really say I agree with that if you're implying the plasma is 100% better than the modern OLEDs. Motion is different, and the specific case I've been talking about is the only time it even jumps to mind that there's any difference. In every other aspect, size, PQ, brightness, etc the C9 is superior to my old 50" Kuro. It's not like the Kuro was completely flawless either, my screen coating had streaks on it that didn't bother me terribly but manifested in DSE very similar to the banding on OLEDs in the way it manifested on the image, and near the end my Kuro had developed the magenta cast to the blacks until I did the voltage adjustment and got it kind of back into normal territory.

I certainly do not regret in the least moving on from my Kuro to my C9 aside from accepting that the TV industry is not what it used to be and I doubt I ever get ten years out of a TV again.

I just hAve weird ideas and thoughts . I feel like I got suckered into this whole oled , 4K , hdr crap. It’s a marketing gimmick . Pq is lacking to me period . But that’s just me . Cant wait to get a zt60 back !


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Originally Posted by Manoj Mohan View Post
I just hAve weird ideas and thoughts . I feel like I got suckered into this whole oled , 4K , hdr crap. It’s a marketing gimmick . Pq is lacking to me period . But that’s just me . Cant wait to get a zt60 back !


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If by weird you mean silly, i'd be inclined to agree with you based on your post history.
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