OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 390 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11671 of 15904 Old 01-16-2015, 05:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chexi1 View Post
I am beginning to really dislike Samsung. I have a really old Samsung cheap laser printer sitting in my attic somewhere and my only other Samsung product, a 50" LCD TV that will shortly be going to my mother's house, was just displaced with an LG 55EA800 OLED. I never had anything against Samsung, other than perhaps all the tech they copy and the broken frame interpolation on my LCD TV that they never really got right, but this bs they keep spinning has prompted me to impose a lifetime ban on Samsung in my household. There. It is done.
Well their Galaxy Note II that I own is spectacular at least. But their UN46C6300 in 2010 that I owned briefly was horrendous.
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post #11672 of 15904 Old 01-16-2015, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
No, that is not what has been said.
''At volume, OLED TVs made with panels produced with Kateeva's proccesses will cost 20% to 30% less to manufacture than LCd TVs'' ''Kateeva can't predict Retail prices, but one can imagine these TVs being cost competitive, particularly if a manufacturer is bent on market share.''
Guys like Kateeva have to be buzzoptimistic and so they are. Since they predict their technology in products in 2017 their printed OLED sheets should be competitive with premium wallpaper .

What was more interesting in the article is this: Back in 2008, most manufacturers estimated that OLED TVs might hit the mainstream by 2015. Fact is that LG fulfilled this estimation just on time.
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post #11673 of 15904 Old 01-16-2015, 10:41 PM
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I don't think mainstream means what you think it means.

But then I don't think you understand Kateeva's claims and how low on hype they are.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #11674 of 15904 Old 01-18-2015, 03:46 AM
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South Korean government to encourage creation of $3.75 billion OLED assembly line....

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150118000259

No idea what kind of OLED assembly this is, though.

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Last edited by Desk.; 01-18-2015 at 03:58 AM.
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post #11675 of 15904 Old 01-18-2015, 06:21 PM
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I'm not sure what thread to put this in.

BestBuy ran a commercial for the LG 9300 OLED TV today during the AFC football championship game in my area at least. I'm not sure if it went out nationwide.

The commercial ended with the BB guy saying "this TV is an absolute game-changer".

That's the first I've ever seen OLED TVs advertised. I noticed that about half the BestBuy stores in my area show some inventory, so it will be interesting to watch and see if they get sold.
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post #11676 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
I'm not sure what thread to put this in.

BestBuy ran a commercial for the LG 9300 OLED TV today during the AFC football championship game in my area at least. I'm not sure if it went out nationwide.

The commercial ended with the BB guy saying "this TV is an absolute game-changer".

That's the first I've ever seen OLED TVs advertised. I noticed that about half the BestBuy stores in my area show some inventory, so it will be interesting to watch and see if they get sold.
Sunday's BB newspaper insert for the Orlando, FL area had a promo for the 9300 at $2999. First ad that I have seen BB present for OLED.
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post #11677 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 07:01 AM
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Same Best Buy insert in MA. stores this week.I saw same kind of ad when they first appeared in best Buy months ago.Now the big question is when are they going to stock and put the 65 4K OLED on display?

Matt
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post #11678 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rich Peterson View Post
BestBuy ran a commercial for the LG 9300 OLED TV today during the AFC football championship game in my area at least. I'm not sure if it went out nationwide.
This commercial aired in NC too. I watched and cheered right up until the point where they mentioned the curved screen would ensure everyone could have the best seat in the house.
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post #11679 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by madtapper View Post
This commercial aired in NC too. I watched and cheered right up until the point where they mentioned the curved screen would ensure everyone could have the best seat in the house.
Thank you! I had exactly the same reaction, when I saw the commercial here in California.

As a hopeful outsider to this discussion (I'm a high-end Samsung plasma owner, who hopes that by the time my plasma dies (20 years from now?), OLED will have evolved to the point that it's become a viable and affordable replacement.

What I don't understand, is what part of high-school Plane Geometry didn't get across to the curved-screen designers, when they failed to consider the amount of additional distortion that a curved screen would introduce to off-center viewers.

It's obvious that one person, sitting at the focal-point of the screen's curvature, will benefit from having the picture's distortion reduced to zero. But it's equally obvious that any shift to either side of that position is going to result in a far more distorted image than would be produced by a flat screen.

I find it impossible to imagine that a potential buyer, viewing one of these sets in-store, could somehow fail to notice this.
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post #11680 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by B 26354 View Post
What I don't understand, is what part of high-school Plane Geometry didn't get across to the curved-screen designers, when they failed to consider the amount of additional distortion that a curved screen would introduce to off-center viewers.
Here is what one person with a PHD in physics wrote:

http://www.displaymate.com/LG_OLED_TV_ShootOut_1.htm
Quote:
The slight curvature reduces visual geometric distortion: When you watch a perfectly flat TV screen, the corners of the screen are further away than the center so they appear smaller. As a result, the eye doesn’t see the screen as a perfect rectangle – it actually sees dual elongated trapezoids, which is keystone geometric distortion. The slight curvature on the LG OLED TV reduces this subtle keystone geometric distortion by 50 percent at a typical 8 foot (2.4 meter) viewing distance.

The slight curvature improves viewing from the sides away from the central sweet spot: A second and more subtle point: people sitting off to the sides away from the central sweet spot actually get a somewhat better viewing experience than with a flat screen because the curved screen accommodates their viewing direction better by compensating for some of the uneven image foreshortening that is seen with a flat screen: the image on the side of the screen closest to you appears larger, and the image on the side of the screen furthest away appears smaller. The inward curvature of the screen compresses the foreshortening of the image on the near side that appears larger, and the curvature on the far side enlarges the distant part of image that appears smaller, which improves the overall screen image geometry that is seen away from the central sweet spot.
I've thought about writing to him as I don't get some of that. For one, since the screen isn't curved vertically, for a viewer on the right side the right edge of the screen is too close to them already with a flat screen and the curve brings it even closer, so seems like more distortion than for flat for the height of the image on the same side the viewer is sitting.
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It's obvious that one person, sitting at the focal-point of the screen's curvature, will benefit from having the picture's distortion reduced to zero.
It isn't obvious to me. Maybe you or someone else can explain it.

I assume you are talking about the geometric distortion.

If a person stands in the center of a soccer field and looks at one of the rectangular goals then the sides will be physically further away from them than the center. The human visual system takes this into account. If the sides are the same distance away and the same height as the center then the goal isn't a flat rectangle, it is curved.

It seems to me that the claim that the sides need to be brought closer because otherwise a rectangle doesn't look right is like claiming that if I look at a rectangular wall it won't look like a rectangle. Of course it isn't a rectangle on the back of my eye, but we learn over many years what a rectangle in real life is supposed to look like.

Is the claim that if somebody took a picture of a soccer goal from the middle of the field and displayed it on a flat panel that the geometry would look wrong compared to the geometry that would have been seen in real life?

Thanks,
Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #11681 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 02:06 PM
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^^^ Please don't turn this thread into a flat vs curved argument. That's happening in way too many threads already.
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post #11682 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 02:14 PM
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That really goes to the heart of the problem. We humans, flaws and all, somehow manage to see the world without much difficulty. I'm laying a new tiled floor upstairs and I can spot the misalignments in opposite corners just fine. And this is achievable from 15 feet away without the room being curved for me by LG. Go figure!

Unrelated: as for sitting on the sides being better with the curved sets, I find even LG's subtle curve beyond irritating from the side. You first see the edge of the TV, then you look into the "cylinder", then it wraps back to you. All the while, the first half of the image is drifting away from you in a way that feels anything but natural first because it's "falling" out of your field and then because it comes wrapping back on a curvature that has no specific meaning to you. It was set in a factory somewhere and it relates in no way to the content you're seeing, which varies from life size, to a fraction thereof, to many times the size of.

We can debate this forever and it's clear that Samsung's effort is dramatically more offensive/irritating than what LG did. And we can agree to disagree that some people will enjoy sitting inside the cylinder as a more "immersive" viewing experience (I don't; I'm fine you do, whoever you may be). But claims that this somehow better mimics nature and that it somehow better provides an experience for people outside the cylinder are weird at best and fundamentally misleading at worst.

* Incidentally, there are many claims about the curve and reflections. They are largely irrelevant. It all depends on where your reflections come from. In my home curving the screen will help it pick up reflections from my yard as it will point the edge toward a window that a flat TV cannot "see". In your home, a curved TV might well help avoid reflections. This could mean that a given person might choose a curved screen for their home and another might avoid one. But this doesn't speak to any specific benefit of the technology.

** As to why we are dredging up the curved argument again, you can lay the blame at the feet of LG, which chose to advertise this selling point in concert with Best Buy.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #11683 of 15904 Old 01-19-2015, 05:02 PM
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Curved is beneficial for one viewer, he needs to sit still in the sweet spot at a precise distance though..
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post #11684 of 15904 Old 01-20-2015, 06:17 AM
 
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Curved is beneficial for one viewer, he needs to sit still in the sweet spot at a precise distance though..
Why is there a benefit for the one viewer?
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post #11685 of 15904 Old 01-20-2015, 07:52 AM
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Why is there a benefit for the one viewer?
The ''wrapped around image'' effect, the (TV) screen needs to be really big though. So a large screen is the fourth condition for a curved screen to be benefitial..

1) one viewer
2) sweet spot
3) precise distance
4) large sized screen
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post #11686 of 15904 Old 01-20-2015, 08:00 AM
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There is now a thread set up specifically for the flat vs curved debate: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...urved-tvs.html
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post #11687 of 15904 Old 01-20-2015, 08:25 PM
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I want to an AMOLED or SAMOLED assuming OLDE isn't the same exact thing. I like that each pixel IS it's own back light.
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post #11688 of 15904 Old 01-21-2015, 08:56 AM
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I want to an AMOLED or SAMOLED assuming OLDE isn't the same exact thing. I like that each pixel IS it's own back light.
Uh what?
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post #11689 of 15904 Old 01-22-2015, 07:20 PM
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Uh what?
With standard LCD (LED or CCFL) light is generated via a backlight, a light that shines THROUGH the screen, thusly illuminating the liquid crystal display.

With AMOLED/SAMOLED and CRT, there is no back light what so ever. light is generated on a per pixel basis. Each pixel generates it's own light and color. you need a red pixle, that pixles generates red color/light. need black? it generates black and lowers it's light out put level and or turns off completely.

Where as with LCD, if you need black it emits light but, tries to block it out. ultimately the light will bleed through causing it to turn more of grey color, not so much so with stuff like local dimming LED LCDs but, not as good as per pixle lighting like CRT SAMOLED/AMOLED.
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post #11690 of 15904 Old 01-22-2015, 07:54 PM
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I'm well aware of what an OLED is. Your post made no sense. OLED is OLED. No one is selling passive matrix full color OLED, so the AM (active matrix) is implied.
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post #11691 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post
With standard LCD (LED or CCFL) light is generated via a backlight, a light that shines THROUGH the screen, thusly illuminating the liquid crystal display.

With AMOLED/SAMOLED and CRT, there is no back light what so ever. light is generated on a per pixel basis. Each pixel generates it's own light and color. you need a red pixle, that pixles generates red color/light. need black? it generates black and lowers it's light out put level and or turns off completely.

Where as with LCD, if you need black it emits light but, tries to block it out. ultimately the light will bleed through causing it to turn more of grey color, not so much so with stuff like local dimming LED LCDs but, not as good as per pixle lighting like CRT SAMOLED/AMOLED.
Don't forget plasma displays. Their pixels emit its own light source as well.
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post #11692 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 12:20 AM
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I'm well aware of what an OLED is. Your post made no sense. OLED is OLED. No one is selling passive matrix full color OLED, so the AM (active matrix) is implied.
Part of my original statement was pertaining to my lack of knowledge pertaining to AMOLED vs SAMOLED vs OLDEM. Meaning, i'd like a SAMOLED TV assuming there isa reasonable wan't/ned/improvement over OLED, assuming they aren't the same thing. I am not good with words.


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Don't forget plasma displays. Their pixels emit its own light source as well.
This is NOT my understanding, my understanding is it's similar LCD but, uses different materials that do a better job of blocking the light from the back light. This may be wrong so i'm DEFINITELY open to education here.
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post #11693 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 05:16 AM
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Your understanding about plasma is incorrect. Plasma is (was) an emissive technology. All versions of OLED are also emissive.

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post #11694 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 06:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post
This is NOT my understanding, my understanding is it's similar LCD but, uses different materials that do a better job of blocking the light from the back light. This may be wrong so i'm DEFINITELY open to education here.
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Your understanding about plasma is incorrect. Plasma is (was) an emissive technology. All versions of OLED are also emissive.
@cdoublejj , Where did you get that understanding? There is no backlight in plasma. @JazzGuyy is correct.
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post #11695 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 09:41 AM
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@cdoublejj , Where did you get that understanding? There is no backlight in plasma. @JazzGuyy is correct.
The Internet, http://www.ispot.tv/ad/7VOE/state-fa...d-french-model
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post #11696 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 11:42 AM
 
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I remember that ad....loved it.
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post #11697 of 15904 Old 01-23-2015, 06:57 PM
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Not trying to confuse the issue here but OLED and LCD are similar in that they both use a TFT to control light output. PDP does not have any TFTs and relies on wall charge to control the on/off states. That is why I always found PDP such a fascinating tech. Quite the genius idea IMO.

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post #11698 of 15904 Old 01-24-2015, 08:06 AM
 
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Not trying to confuse the issue here but OLED and LCD are similar in that they both use a TFT to control light output. PDP does not have any TFTs and relies on wall charge to control the on/off states. That is why I always found PDP such a fascinating tech. Quite the genius idea IMO.
Could you explain this a little more xrox? Plasma requires a careful PWM pulsing to work. This represents a violent and fast changing of states that can only be controlled by something resembling transistors (or some other electronic "circuit", digital or analog, both of which involve transistors.) A simple wall charge simply can't handle the careful waveforms that must be shaped.
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post #11699 of 15904 Old 01-24-2015, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Could you explain this a little more xrox? Plasma requires a careful PWM pulsing to work. This represents a violent and fast changing of states that can only be controlled by something resembling transistors (or some other electronic "circuit", digital or analog, both of which involve transistors.) A simple wall charge simply can't handle the careful waveforms that must be shaped.
It is complex but fascinating.

PDP cells have a combination of electrodes and dielectric material that enable control of on/off state by controlling wall charge above and below the discharge threshold.

Note: "on state" does not mean the pixel is emitting light. It means the pixel wall charge is at a level that enables it to be turned on during application of sustain voltage.

So the entire array of pixels is addressed and set into either the on or off state. Then during the sustain a voltage is applied to all pixels at once and only the pixels in the on state will discharge producing a pulse of light. This process in repeated 8-10 times each frame (panasonic)

A basic example using voltage due to wall charge

V1= off state (voltage of cell due to wall charge)
V2 = on state (voltage of cell due to wall charge)
VT = threshold (voltage of cell required to cause discharge and light emission)
Vs = applied sustain voltage to electrodes (voltage applied to all cells at once)

V1+Vs < VT pixel fails to emit light
V2+Vs > VT pixel emits light
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post #11700 of 15904 Old 01-24-2015, 11:05 AM
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I wonder if anyone will ever release a PWM driven OLED TV.

The only displays I have ever owned or seen with visually acceptable uniformity have all been PWM driven (DLP projector, newer JVC LCOS projectors, and various plasmas). Everything else using an analog drive has always suffered from some non-uniformity (LCD, OLED, CRT, and older analog JVC/Sony LCOS projectors).

Is this because with PWM, the pixels only need to display 2 levels accurately (on and off)?

The inherent dither of PWM does suck but I've yet to notice it at typical viewing distances. Can't say the same for non-uniform colors which bug me all the time.
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