OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 464 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13891 of 15883 Old 05-12-2017, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by paranoyd androyd View Post
The additional $200 example is for consumers in the 12"-14" device range, not smartphones, so I think you misunderstood. But if you want to stick to a discussion about smartphone OLED vs. 12-17" OLED devices, that's ok too. However, questioning the "benefit" of OLED at 12"-17" vs. smartphone size doesn't make any sense, since the benefits and enjoyment of OLED will always be greater at larger sizes. So, from that perspective, OLED in smartphones really serves the least beneficial purpose for viewing.
What I am saying is that benefits of OLED in both smartphone and portable devices category is limited. In smartphones it might be greater due to its thinness in situation where every micron counts. Still, the Apple OLED might be next generation with flooring PQ showing benefit over LCD. There is some similarity with market position of OLED in TV and smartphones: both are focused now on grabbing high-end. It would be a huge success for OLED if LCD is virtually extinguished from this segment. Getting Apple on board will be collosal step forward as it may initiate runaway from LCD in the premium smartphone products. In the TV area LG has to get manufacturing capacities ready before trying the same.

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I'm quite familiar with the discussion, thanks. It's just hard to understand why you continue telling everyone that there's essentially no "benefit" or demand for OLED between smartphone and TV sizes, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. If you honestly think that LCD is going to continue occupying the enormous space between 6" and 55" panel sizes, you're sorely mistaken. Everything trickles down, including BOM costs and consumer prices, so it is most critical that OLED first makes an impact at the high-end level for the greater purpose of OLED adoption on the whole. Not too sure how anyone can disagree with that.
What I am saying is that OLED can make inroads into the in-between space if and when its price will be competitive with LCD. This is extremely difficult to achieve since LCD prices are target moving down south when competitor is coming from the north, with time and they can get much lower than today.
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post #13892 of 15883 Old 05-13-2017, 06:50 AM
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As a retired accountant, you've got me curious about this.

Do you have a breakdown of fixed versus variable cost for a 55" OLED display?

I've wondered for a while how much direct materials go into these displays as a part of total cost. Got to recover that plant and R&D cost not to speak of ongoing overhead cost.
I'm not doing this math now, but a couple of things worth noting (for someone, or me, to do it later):

1) Fixed cost should be easily calculated with a small-ish error margin. The fab has a somewhat understood cost, capacity, and (very likely) a 5-year depreciation curve. It won't cease functioning then, but it's likely it's over 5 years that depreciation expense still exists. Multiply capacity x 60 x number of displays per substrate, divide that into the cost of the fab and you have "fixed costs per display" more or less. (you have to account for yield too, so maybe take 85% of the total over the fab's lifetime?)

2) Variable cost includes labor, materials, energy (and of course transport, margin, etc. upstream). There's a number of really expensive materials in these screens and yet not a lot of any of them. Someone may have some data handy on how much OLED material costs per display. As for the rest (the ITO, the backplane TFT, the color filters LG uses, etc. these are mostly the same as for LCD). Mathable to an extent, with the acknowledgement that at some point the total of all the steps should be slightly better than LCD because it's a slightly simplified process.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #13893 of 15883 Old 05-13-2017, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
4. A 42" OLED monitor with 4k, HDR, and 120Hz (three things LG's TVs already do) at a $1000 price-point would be able to hit multiple market segments and not just a single niche - the high-end gamer, the videophile, and the photo/video professional with a reasonable budget. And monitors of course can double as a tunerless "dumb" TVs - LG just has to throw in a basic remote as well.
Since the main difference between a "TV" and a "monitor" is the tuner (for the most part), from a manufacturing standpoint it's weighing the advantages of slightly less cost of omitting the tuner vs the versatility of having one even if the set won't be connected to an antenna.
The two key players there are the videophile, and the photo/video professional! where there has always been a shortage of above quality monitors without going into the broadcast level.

Then there is this upcoming huge unwanted and unneeded planned obsolesce of ATSC 1 in the very near future which obsoletes all existing tuners and especially DVR's.

.
.
Recording free OTA TV for 'time shifting' has been here since 1975. Will there be DVR's to do the same when ATSC3 obsoletes existing DVR's??
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post #13894 of 15883 Old 05-13-2017, 04:52 PM
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Samsung is pushing their small OLEDs for years, technology is ready but the barrier is the price several times higher than LCD. Apple adopting it will only mean OLED is making inroads into high-end but one should not forget Apple is marginal in the overall market. Expanding OLED down the cost ladder will require major decrease in prices. Tablets and notebooks are even much tougher from this point of view.
Note the news OLED manufacturers see automotive as most promising and that is due to panel flexibility and robustness.
Small OLEDs have been close to price parity with LCDs for a while now. This doesn't mean that the industry can switch to OLEDs overnight, though (if they tried the price difference would increase).
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post #13895 of 15883 Old 05-14-2017, 09:11 AM
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Small OLEDs have been close to price parity with LCDs for a while now. This doesn't mean that the industry can switch to OLEDs overnight, though (if they tried the price difference would increase).
What is the source of your information about 'close to price parity'? I cited reliable source some time age that smartphone OLED panels cost several time of LCD.

For the OLED monitors fanboys, there is one more information about the extreme potential of the LCD tech: a monitor with CR of 1 000 000:1, capable of outblasting 1 000 nits, and cummin soon. For the time being the new LCD technology is directed for high-end professional apps and probably carries long price sticker but who knows if it won't come down.
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post #13896 of 15883 Old 05-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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^^^ that sort of extreme contrast LCD would also still have the usual LCD resistance to burn-in. Something that is very important for monitor use - especially work environments putting in 8-hour days on the panel. That's why I'm very skeptical OLED will ever get a foothold in the monitor market.

I think that high contrast LCD uses some kind of dual layered LCD panel where each pixel is modulated by two separate LCD panels. Kind of makes sense if you look at the numbers. A typical IPS panel can achieve 1000:1 so stacking them on top of each other would get you to 1,00,000:1. Main problem is you need to put out a massive amount of light to get enough light past all those layers. This may never scale to TV sizes because of power concerns.
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post #13897 of 15883 Old 05-14-2017, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Main problem is you need to put out a massive amount of light to get enough light past all those layers..
Don't forget that your cost will likely be doubled since it's now two panels rather than one - that could very well put it in the same price-bracket as WOLED.
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post #13898 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post
What is the source of your information about 'close to price parity'? I cited reliable source some time age that smartphone OLED panels cost several time of LCD.
The news articles on the subject all seem to be sourced to IHS, but IHS's stuff is behind a paywall, so...I'll retract the statement. I don't know.
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post #13899 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
^^^ that sort of extreme contrast LCD would also still have the usual LCD resistance to burn-in. Something that is very important for monitor use - especially work environments putting in 8-hour days on the panel. That's why I'm very skeptical OLED will ever get a foothold in the monitor market.
Burn-in is nowadays considered as no issue in OLED. OLED can get a foothold everywhere it its price will get comparable to LCD.

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I think that high contrast LCD uses some kind of dual layered LCD panel where each pixel is modulated by two separate LCD panels. Kind of makes sense if you look at the numbers. A typical IPS panel can achieve 1000:1 so stacking them on top of each other would get you to 1,00,000:1. Main problem is you need to put out a massive amount of light to get enough light past all those layers. This may never scale to TV sizes because of power concerns.
It is not that simple. LCD works by manipulating polarization of light. Panasonic calls the seconde layer 'light modulator', it apparently controls light intensity without impacting polarisation. That could be seen by analogy with dimming LEDs which is polarisation neutral, in this case the light modulator is dimming.
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post #13900 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 12:50 PM
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In light of this burn-in thread, I'm not so sure that OLED is ready for computer monitor applications where you would be required to display static images like the task-bar or tool bars of productivity apps for hours on end every day.

Then there is the whole ABL issue which will pop up more frequently due to large white backgrounds being the norm in computer use.

Overall, I agree pricing is the main problem. Monitor LCD is now a cheap commodity where various monitor vendors just slap custom processing and/or packaging around dirt cheap panels.
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post #13901 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
In light of this burn-in thread
You will notice that the burn-in seems to not be simply due to static elements like one would expect (such as how it worked on CRT and plasma), but rather seems to be related to bright vivid colors such as florescent yellow.

As is mentioned in that thread, there are several people using their OLED TV as a PC monitor and yet have never had such burn-in, again pointing to the idea that static imagery alone isn't an issue.
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post #13902 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 04:17 PM
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We don't know what the issue is. You also have users with burn-in of simple white text such as the CNN logo. Just having an OLED hooked up to a computer for occasional monitor usage is not the same as using one exclusively as a full-time work display that gets zero mixed TV usage.
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post #13903 of 15883 Old 05-15-2017, 11:09 PM
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Extreme potential of the LCD tech: a monitor with CR of 1 000 000:1, capable of outblasting 1 000 nits, and cummin soon. For the time being the new LCD technology is directed for high-end professional apps and probably carries long price sticker but who knows if it won't come down.
In a couple of months we will actually see how the new LCD technology is performing. However the monitors will be made by Eizo which is focused on high-end and would not use the technology if it is not excellent. Deadly challenger for OLED might be in the cards, looking into the original press release is quite revealing and here are some citations:

The coming Eizo monitor is called ColorEdge PROMINENCE. The name “PROMINENCE” refers to the phenomenon known as a solar prominence – a flame-like eruption which extends from the Sun’s surface. This image of the bright sun shining against the deep black of space lends to the monitor’s ability to accurately display both bright and dark content.

*Here follow the OLED and traditional LCD killing shots *:
This professional color grading monitor is the first to overcome the severe drawbacks of other HDR technologies that are available in the market today – ABL and local dimming. ABL (Auto Brightness Limiter) is equipped in other HDR OLED monitors and limits the monitor’s ability to display lighter scenes with tones over a specific range in order to prolong the device’s lifetime. This causes those light areas to appear dimmer and the color duller as a result. Local dimming uses an area control backlight system which adjusts the brightness in sections of the screen depending on the content displayed. However, when an object on the screen falls outside of the area of the backlight that is adjusted, a “halo” effect appears, making it impossible to achieve full color accuracy in smaller details. ColorEdge PROMINENCE CG3145 achieves a true HDR visual experience without ABL or the “halo” effect to ensure users always see accurate colors and brightness in every pixel.

That would look like OLED and LCD getting their EOL proscribed, with only if by the name of inventor Panasonic. Old Japanese companies are not exactly known of recently to be able to push their inventions into voluminous products. Remind Sharp's IGZO and Sony's OLED to gage that Panasonic may be following the same track: occupy small specialized niche and be happy. So as for now, do not salivate for the prospect of seeing blinding Prominence in shops.

Anyway, here
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post #13904 of 15883 Old 05-16-2017, 02:44 AM
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I know this is a prototype but check out the thickness of this LCD.

Will be surprised if this isn't using active cooling (maybe even water cooling) to achieve those sustained HDR brightness numbers. Even the Dell OLED monitor with a fraction of this brightness is using active fan cooling.

I wonder if we're someday going to return to the CRT level of display thickness in order to achieve the 10,000 nit displays that are the goal for HDR.
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post #13905 of 15883 Old 05-16-2017, 10:07 PM
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Somebody here told me that OLED dims really fast with usage. In 1 year he saw his Galaxy phone go from white to dim yellow and he said he saw it happen to LG OLED and Samsung AMOLED too.

Is it really going to dim that fast? I mean it surely will dim with time like Plasma, but surely it will take longer? Doesn't LG rate their OLED for a rather long period of time from what I read somewhere?

I wonder if Best Buy covers this too?
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post #13906 of 15883 Old 05-16-2017, 10:10 PM
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I know this is a prototype but check out the thickness of this LCD. .
Yeah...a big reason I want OLED in the PC space is for laptops, especially since VA panels are much more rare in that market - they're all pretty much TN or IPS, so your black levels are never all that great!

Yes I know, OLED laptops already exist so why don't I get one of them? Because I actually had two requirements for a laptop - one is OLED, and the other is Raven Ridge (which won't be available until later this year).

I also prefer LG WOLED to Samsung's RGB OLED (especially considering the former's square pixel grid), but it's not the end of the world since DPI scaling would likely be necessary anyway.
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post #13907 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 02:26 AM
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Somebody here told me that OLED dims really fast with usage. In 1 year he saw his Galaxy phone go from white to dim yellow and he said he saw it happen to LG OLED and Samsung AMOLED too.

Is it really going to dim that fast? I mean it surely will dim with time like Plasma, but surely it will take longer? Doesn't LG rate their OLED for a rather long period of time from what I read somewhere?

I wonder if Best Buy covers this too?
The underlying question should be which generation OLED?

When the 2016s came out, an LG engineer stated that they had changed how they did blue so it wouldn't strain it as in earlier generations. That's kind of the drawback to knowing what will happen. If you buy the current model, it may be 3 or 4 years before you know anything. ....and I don't really expect engineers speaking at conventions to tell the whole story. It may have been an improvement but then what should we expect in terms of brightness and color balance?
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post #13908 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 02:55 AM
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Over 5k hours on a 55EA9800 (2013/14 model), and the colors are not horridly off (based on eyeballing it) in comparison to when I first obtained it nor is the brightness particularly diminished.

Creator, it's important to remember who spouted that futuristic uncertainty because while there may be an ounce of truth to it, the purveyor of that information might have been spouting it to spread his/her own agenda.
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post #13909 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 05:21 AM
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The underlying question should be which generation OLED?

When the 2016s came out, an LG engineer stated that they had changed how they did blue so it wouldn't strain it as in earlier generations. That's kind of the drawback to knowing what will happen. If you buy the current model, it may be 3 or 4 years before you know anything. ....and I don't really expect engineers speaking at conventions to tell the whole story. It may have been an improvement but then what should we expect in terms of brightness and color balance?
Yeah I thought as much. This tech mostly has new owners.

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Over 5k hours on a 55EA9800 (2013/14 model), and the colors are not horridly off (based on eyeballing it) in comparison to when I first obtained it nor is the brightness particularly diminished.

Creator, it's important to remember who spouted that futuristic uncertainty because while there may be an ounce of truth to it, the purveyor of that information might have been spouting it to spread his/her own agenda.
Fuzalert from the LCD thread said it. He said he was thinking about the A1E but then didn't want to invest that much in a TV that will be dimmer and less crisp in 1 year.

I didn't want to say it because it's then easy to say "He's an LCD guy so he will bash on OLED". You gotta keep an open mind and there is logic in what he says.

I guess it depends on how long you keep your displays. I tend to keep them for 5-7 years but not sure I will on my next TV because the 4K and HDR stuff is changing often.
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post #13910 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 09:41 AM
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The main question I have is whether they will dim gradually like older emissive displays (which had no active compensation) or fall off a cliff once the compensation cycles run out of range. The Kodak patents claim their is a limit to how much compensations can boost the signal to equalize brightness loss over life but they don't say exact number of hours. Imagine you could be running along fine for X hours and then suddenly start a death spiral where it either fades quickly or starts to become an IR/BI magnet. Still too early to tell exactly what path to final death these displays will follow. I'm not sure we'll ever know since the panel could fail catastrophically from other causes (PSU failure, dead pixels, etc.) long before brightness becomes an issue or become obsolete and get replaced. Last I checked, there were a couple other original EA9800 owners like VA without any issues at ~5000 hours and I have not seen reports of premature dimming (unless you count the Burn-in thread).
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post #13911 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 04:09 PM
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^^^ that sort of extreme contrast LCD would also still have the usual LCD resistance to burn-in. Something that is very important for monitor use - especially work environments putting in 8-hour days on the panel. That's why I'm very skeptical OLED will ever get a foothold in the monitor market.
It would also have the incredibly ****ty response time all LCD panels have always had.
As a gamer, I would risk burn in any day over the mediocre response time LCD panels have. Mind you, i have a really good LCD for gaming (Dell 27" g-sync monitor), but it's still trash compared to OLED in that regard.

That said, 240hz monitors are coming out, so settling for 120hz just doesn't seem right for OLED. This may not sound like a big deal (and it shouldn't be for a lot of people) But if you're into FPS games, especially fast paced ones like Overwatch, 240hz makes a world of difference (yes, you can still see the obvious benefit of higher FPS/Hz)

So, even with contrast ratio, LCD still sucks compared to OLED for smooth motion.
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post #13912 of 15883 Old 05-17-2017, 05:27 PM
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What big changes are coming to OLED next year?

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post #13913 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 03:48 AM
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What big changes are coming to OLED next year?
It will be a PHENOMENAL tv, the best ever made. A GREAT achievement for this GREATEST audience in this world.......

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post #13914 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 05:16 AM
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I know your joking but I was being serious.
D-nice hinted at big changes for next year, just wondering if there was any info yet.

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post #13915 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 06:41 AM
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I know your joking but I was being serious.
D-nice hinted at big changes for next year, just wondering if there was any info yet.
Next years leap forward will be an iteration which combines a Back to the Future time transporter and a Star Trek teleportation machine.

Unfortunately, some of the original test audience has been lost in the future and past and some have not been reassembled as what we would consider a human being.

Needless to say there are some minor kinks that need to be worked out but the lawyers are working on an iron clad waiver of injury or loss of life claims.

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post #13916 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 06:59 AM
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MNC is serious and Im sure a lot of us want to know,especially when D-Nice speaks.
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post #13917 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 08:14 AM
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Isn't there some hope that LG will increase the brightness by a lot to be more competitive with the LED TVs touting 1000 nits?
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post #13918 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 09:41 AM
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Hmmm, this thread makes me wanna return my freshly bought C6 and wait 1-2 more years ...
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post #13919 of 15883 Old 05-18-2017, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by joys_R_us View Post
It will be a PHENOMENAL tv, the best ever made. A GREAT achievement for this GREATEST audience in this world.......

are you high?

Anyway, next year the biggest feature I'm looking for is HFR at 4k and VRR.

120hz seems like it's set in stone. But I would love 240hz, which is not going to happen.
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post #13920 of 15883 Old 05-19-2017, 12:12 AM
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are you high?
Whenever I watch the news I wish I were high !

Coming back to the topic, I am quite sure that LGD will introduce a new panel/pixel architecture with other oled stacks (probably rgb) and reversed tft connections and bigger pixel area. Maybe even quantum dots in the filters; all resulting in higher brightness and better colour gamut...

If it will result in better panels from the start on remaines to be seen as LGD is not only trying to improve the panel quality but also to decrease the costs. So that people waiting for next years oleds may be burned (at least at the beginning until early problems with the new panels get solved).
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Lcd Hdtv , Led Hdtv , Lg , Oled Tv , oled wireless speakers , Plasma Hdtv , Samsung

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