OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 482 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14431 of 16154 Old 01-05-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
I almost wonder if this is a "deposit blue, print red and green" design. It seems improbable a computer-monitor worthy blue exists that can get solution processed.
If true, that would mean promised breakthroughs on low cost will not be achieved, correct?
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post #14432 of 16154 Old 01-05-2018, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If true, that would mean promised breakthroughs on low cost will not be achieved, correct?
A lot of cost advantage is lost if the substrate needs to go through both kinds of processes. But how much? IDK, no one has ever done this.

Consider that LG now has to process each substrate 3x through vapor deposition. That has to be very slow.

With a hybrid display (assuming lots of things can be hand waved away), you'd only need one vapor step and one "printing" step as both colors could ostensibly be laid down at once. Heck if you could print yellow, you could do a single-color print, right? (I don't believe that's realistic, just noting)

Now, I'd add this monitor doesn't look cheap either way. But given the last we heard about soluble blue was still in the 100s of hours, how could a monitor be using soluble blue? Does JOLED have exclusive access to an unannounced breakthrough? Again IDK.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #14433 of 16154 Old 01-05-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
A lot of cost advantage is lost if the substrate needs to go through both kinds of processes. But how much? IDK, no one has ever done this.

Consider that LG now has to process each substrate 3x through vapor deposition. That has to be very slow.

With a hybrid display (assuming lots of things can be hand waved away), you'd only need one vapor step and one "printing" step as both colors could ostensibly be laid down at once. Heck if you could print yellow, you could do a single-color print, right? (I don't believe that's realistic, just noting)

Now, I'd add this monitor doesn't look cheap either way. But given the last we heard about soluble blue was still in the 100s of hours, how could a monitor be using soluble blue? Does JOLED have exclusive access to an unannounced breakthrough? Again IDK.
Sounds kind of rube-goldberg.

LG's process 3 vapor deposition steps on the same piece of equipment.

This hybrid JOLED process woukd require the blue oled vapor deposition on one piece of equipment, then shifting to another piece of equipment for printing of red and green.

Plus, if the blue is being patterned using masking techniques similar to how Samsung did it, they're likely to face the same challanges scaling up to larger sizes - 21.6" is less than a quarter of the area of a 55" screen...

p.s. and unless this monitor is WOLED with color filters like LG, being able to print yellow wouldn't help .
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post #14434 of 16154 Old 01-05-2018, 05:19 PM
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Is it possible to print red, green then some other color combo and use a filter for blue?
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post #14435 of 16154 Old 01-05-2018, 05:23 PM
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Oled TV shipments more than doubled over the past year while LCD shipments declined a bit: https://www.oled-info.com/ihs-oled-t...-november-2017

"According to IHS, global OLED TV shipments grew 130% from November 2016 to November 2017 to reach a new monthly record of 270,000 units."

"IHS estimates that in 2017 over 1.4 million OLED TVs were shipped."

"The growth of 65" OLED TVs (157% year-over-yera) is greater than the growth of 55" OLEDs (123%)."

"The overall LCD TV shipments actually declined 1.6% in the same period to 24.4 million units, as Black Friday demand in the US in 2017 was lower than in 2016,"

In November, 270,000 OLED TVs shipped versus 24.4M LCD TVs shipped means OLED had 1.1% share .
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post #14436 of 16154 Old 01-06-2018, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Sounds kind of rube-goldberg.

LG's process 3 vapor deposition steps on the same piece of equipment.

This hybrid JOLED process woukd require the blue oled vapor deposition on one piece of equipment, then shifting to another piece of equipment for printing of red and green.

Plus, if the blue is being patterned using masking techniques similar to how Samsung did it, they're likely to face the same challanges scaling up to larger sizes - 21.6" is less than a quarter of the area of a 55" screen...

p.s. and unless this monitor is WOLED with color filters like LG, being able to print yellow wouldn't help .
Yes, the point about yellow was pointless.

It is Rube Goldberg. It's also been proposed more than once by people who actually work in the industry -- unlike me.

That said, the mask you'd need to do 21.6-inch monitors is less than half the mask size Samsung was working with on the 55s (although again I don't know what was deployed on Samsung's production) and would require zero scanning to make monitors. It'd be a single mask.

And let's pretend for a moment they will mask deposit blue and then print the other two to "prove" printing sort of works. That would help raise all this money to do a true RGB within a few years where they can continue to hope someone makes a printable/soluble blue that would last for 5-10 years in a commercial display. Such a material still might be possible, even though in 17 years or so we've yet to see much evidence of progress towards one.

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Originally Posted by Jason626 View Post
Is it possible to print red, green then some other color combo and use a filter for blue?
No. You could do a lot of weird things, including trying to vapor deposit a whole sheet of blue (the way LG does) and then trying to print something over 2/3 of it that would allow you to lay down the red and green on top of it. Some kind of "resist" layer that your printer could handle. It's still super convoluted and really everyone should be trying to perfect what LG has done (think much smaller electrode traces, more clever filter designs, etc.) rather than work an angle that so far lacks evidence of being viable.

But again, what do I know? Perhaps someone secretly does have this next generation material and *isn't* a material supplier, who would presumably be shouting it from the rooftops as it would be worth billions.
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post #14437 of 16154 Old 01-06-2018, 08:19 PM
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Some info on JOLED's printing. They are using ink jet printing previously developed by Panasonic. Panasonic showed a 55" prototype at CES a few years ago. They currently use a slow, low volume gen 4.5 pilot facility so the volume has to be very low and the price expensive. And much of that volume is reportedly going to Sony for a black & white medical monitor. They look to be raising $900 million to create a bigger facility for 2019. Although it should be noted $900 million isn't much in terms of display facilities so real volume production is going to be a long way off. They ink jet print all three red, green, blue colors in an RGB format using polymer OLEDs from Sumitomo Chemical. Sumitomo's performance charts indicate a blue lifetime of 750 hours to 95% brightness and possibly 10k hours to 50% brightness. These are improvements in their blue but it should also be noted that these are likely lab results and the ink jet printing process has typically degraded lab performance results. Idemitsu produces the fluorescent blue used by the rest of the industry. Their website states 11,000 to 50% brightness but this is very outdated and they have shown improved performance in recent years. I think it's well over 20,000 hours currently but can't quickly find the link to show it. Sumitomo's red lifetime is about 1/4 of the VTE materials. Still, if ASUS actually produces this monitor from JOLED that would be a significant event.

http://www.oled-a.org/joled-ships-pr...r-11-2017.html
https://www.sumitomo-chem.co.jp/prin.../displays.html
https://www.oled-info.com/udcs-evapo...uble-materials
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post #14438 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
How bad this will be as matter picture quality? We have big problems atm with the backplane on Normal oleds (at least this is my understanding as matter banding etc) so this has nothing behind the screen, it will be better quality wise? I hold my horses on this.
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post #14440 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 09:32 AM
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How bad this will be as matter picture quality? We have big problems atm with the backplane on Normal oleds (at least this is my understanding as matter banding etc) so this has nothing behind the screen, it will be better quality wise? I hold my horses on this.
IMHO, the value in the future will be allowing people to bring much larger screens into their homes, not in constantly rolling and unrolling the TV.
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post #14441 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 01:07 PM
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I don't think Chris is disputing that (or even making that insinuation about constantly manipulating the screen). However, the ramifications he highlighted are a real concern given how bad the backplanes can already look with fixed positioning.
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post #14442 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 01:11 PM
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Maybe we can kink out the band's like massaging an LCD
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post #14443 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotgoal View Post
Some info on JOLED's printing. They are using ink jet printing previously developed by Panasonic. Panasonic showed a 55" prototype at CES a few years ago. They currently use a slow, low volume gen 4.5 pilot facility so the volume has to be very low and the price expensive. And much of that volume is reportedly going to Sony for a black & white medical monitor. They look to be raising $900 million to create a bigger facility for 2019. Although it should be noted $900 million isn't much in terms of display facilities so real volume production is going to be a long way off. They ink jet print all three red, green, blue colors in an RGB format using polymer OLEDs from Sumitomo Chemical. Sumitomo's performance charts indicate a blue lifetime of 750 hours to 95% brightness and possibly 10k hours to 50% brightness. These are improvements in their blue but it should also be noted that these are likely lab results and the ink jet printing process has typically degraded lab performance results. Idemitsu produces the fluorescent blue used by the rest of the industry. Their website states 11,000 to 50% brightness but this is very outdated and they have shown improved performance in recent years. I think it's well over 20,000 hours currently but can't quickly find the link to show it. Sumitomo's red lifetime is about 1/4 of the VTE materials. Still, if ASUS actually produces this monitor from JOLED that would be a significant event.

http://www.oled-a.org/joled-ships-pr...r-11-2017.html
https://www.sumitomo-chem.co.jp/prin.../displays.html
https://www.oled-info.com/udcs-evapo...uble-materials
Ynot, thank you for this excellent summary.

These data points are very valuable and explain why *you can't make a TV with printable OLED* at this time. The material lifetimes are simply inadequate.

It's in theory possible that someone would make a TV with "just" 20,000 hours to half brightness. I wouldn't make such a TV because it would be noticeably less good in its first 5 years in too many homes. But it's also noteworthy: No manufacturer has proposed such a TV either.

While I agree a monitor from Asus would be significant, it doesn't point to any particular path to commercialization of either volume PC screens or TVs. And it's probably worth mentioning, the limitation isn't production equipment. I'm fairly confident Kateeva's machines could be making TVs if there were materials to make them with. Maybe that's overly optimistic, but they've had several years now since the date they were seemingly quite confident it could be done. And I doubt they are the only equipment maker to have gotten that far.

Given the concerns over LG's displays with respect to lifespan/burn-in, materials that don't last as long as what LG already has access to are worrisome. Feels like printable OLED TVs are still about 5 years away -- as they have been for the past 15 years.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #14444 of 16154 Old 01-07-2018, 07:03 PM
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^ How do we know what LG's true lifetimes really are on their WOLED TVs? Especially when driven at higher light levels. Maybe they're not much better than 20,000 hours. Won't know for sure until some owner reaches that many hours.

There are already $60K laser/phosphor projectors currently being sold with 20K hours to half-brightness. Hasn't stopped Sony, Epson, or JVC from selling them to consumers.
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post #14445 of 16154 Old 01-08-2018, 12:16 AM
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rOLED Video:

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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Interesting, I did notice some slight waviness to the screen as it went up at :26-:29 but not too bad considering a bit of a worst case and I'm sure it will get better.

Yes I agree that this would mostly help with getting larger screens into homes, not for mine in it's present form but after a remodel or a relocation... I'm 10+years with my present display and will likely wait till 2019-2020 to upgrade.

Cheers,

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The white box at the bottom is hideous that completely negates the benefits of the rollable OLED being able to change aspect ratio.
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LGD says they will be able to deal with burn-in through software.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-disp...venue-by-2020/

Quote:
He also rejected concerns of burn-ins raised by rival Samsung.

"Burn-in occurs both in OLED and LCD. It something that we can overcome through algorithms and software," he said.
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The white box at the bottom is hideous that completely negates the benefits of the rollable OLED being able to change aspect ratio.
It's just a demo from LGD, not a product.
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It's just a demo from LGD, not a product.
Still you'll need something to roll the screen down to and for connectivity. So the rollable OLED will never be a "floating" screen on the wall. What's the point then?
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OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread

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Originally Posted by GekkoSoze View Post
Still you'll need something to roll the screen down to and for connectivity. So the rollable OLED will never be a "floating" screen on the wall. What's the point then?

For any scenario where the display isn’t wall mounted? I don’t know, what exactly is your complaint? It’s a demo, and it showcases the panel rollability. I wouldn’t try to read anything more into it.
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post #14452 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 10:45 AM
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The rollable displays box could be hidden in a ceiling so the tv comes down. Or million dollar RVs could have clean look and hidden away tv's to save space where large tv's would never have worked. Niche i know.
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post #14453 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 11:46 AM
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LGD says they will be able to deal with burn-in through software.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-disp...venue-by-2020/
By deferring to LCD (as if the BI issues are anywhere near the same level of severity), I have little faith in that response.
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post #14454 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
LGD says they will be able to deal with burn-in through software.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-disp...venue-by-2020/
That is true (and has already been discussed last year on this thread).

The point is that he said 'will be able to' implying that they have not done anything additional to address burn-in concerns on the just-announced 2018s.

Increased processing power (as well as memory) will be required, so the optimist would see the hardware upgrades launching this year as a promising first step and the double optimist might hope for some new burn-in healing (hiding) software to be released in an update before the year new year is finished.

It's a pity he was not asked when they would be releasing their burn-in-mitigating software and also a pity he was not asked if he is aware of Rtings.com burn-in testing that has exposed 2017 WOLEDs as being far more susceptible to burn-in than LED/LCD...
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post #14455 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
LGD says they will be able to deal with burn-in through software.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-disp...venue-by-2020/
I'll believe it once a 2018 Burn-in thread has no complaints
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post #14456 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GekkoSoze View Post
The white box at the bottom is hideous that completely negates the benefits of the rollable OLED being able to change aspect ratio.
If you saw at the one video that looked 'under the hood' by removing the box, the rigid backing being used will require a large roll that is going to need to be hidden somewhere.

In the longer-term, you'll becable to purchase a TV stand with the entire roll assemble hidden in the center. In the shorter-term, replace that unsightly white box with a 'double-top-with-a-slot' for whatever TV-stand you favor and it'll look far more appealing.

Those hoping for wall-mounting will face a greater challange 'hiding the roll' unless they want to go into the ceiling or into a thick mantle over the fireplace...

An unsightly box and variable aspect ratio are not exactly related, so I'm nt sure what you are trying to say - if your meaning is the negatives of the first outweigh the benefits of the second, fine. But if you mean the box somehow prevents the rollable WOLED from delivering variable aspect ratios that have been promised, you'll need to explain.
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post #14457 of 16154 Old 01-09-2018, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post
LGD says they will be able to deal with burn-in through software.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-disp...venue-by-2020/
Unclear whether LG is saying they will provide the software fix this year and whether it will apply to previous as well as new models.

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post #14458 of 16154 Old 01-10-2018, 07:02 AM
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Even in the animal kingdom, high contrast through deep blacks rules:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02088-w

The surface structure discussed in the article could help OLEDs with daytime viewing conditions.
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post #14459 of 16154 Old 01-10-2018, 10:59 AM
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The new 2018 panels are different to last year! So yes, there is a new pixel structure.

https://translate.google.de/translat...le-n70191.html
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post #14460 of 16154 Old 01-10-2018, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
The new 2018 panels are different to last year! So yes, there is a new pixel structure.

https://translate.google.de/translat...le-n70191.html
It looks like maybe the fill factor will be slightly better. Maybe.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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