OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 483 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14461 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 11:32 AM
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Red is much bigger than last year and yes, the fill factor seems also to be improved.

And we have now BFI (Motion Pro) in LG new OLED TVs:

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post #14462 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 11:33 AM
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I replicate my post from the other thread :
Here is a direct comparison of the pixels size : (2017 vs 2018 at approximately the same scale ):


(Some calculation :
Area increase for Green : + 25% ,
Red : + 60% ,
Blue : something like +10% ,
White : +17% )
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post #14463 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 11:44 AM
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Is there any chance red is larger to help with burn in, which might be due to differential response from red over time?
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post #14464 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
The new 2018 panels are different to last year! So yes, there is a new pixel structure.

https://translate.google.de/translat...le-n70191.html
They increased the size of the red subpixel - this should provide at least a 50% increase in the 'time-to-visible-burn-in' from bright yellow/orange/red static elements like CNN Logo.

Here's the new 2018 panel - red is close to the size of blue/white and much larger than green:
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post #14465 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
They increased the size of the red subpixel - this should provide at least a 50% increase in the 'time-to-visible-burn-in' from bright yellow/orange/red static elements like CNN Logo.

Here's the new 2018 panel - red is close to the size of blue/white and much larger than green:
And here's the 2017 structure - red is much smaller than blue or white and about the same size as green:
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post #14466 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericlhyman View Post
Unclear whether LG is saying they will provide the software fix this year and whether it will apply to previous as well as new models.
if you read what they say on their website about the OLED they are selling right now they say it already isn't a problem so I think it is just their boilerplate response. At best it indicates they are still working on ideas for it.
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post #14467 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
I replicate my post from the other thread :
Here is a direct comparison of the pixels size : (2017 vs 2018 at approximately the same scale ):


(Some calculation :
Area increase for Green : + 25% ,
Red : + 60% ,
Blue : something like +10% ,
White : +17% )
Great post. For equal luminance output, those increased areas should translate directly into increased 'time-to-visible-burn-in' and red in particular should take 160% of the time displaying bright static content to develop visible burn-in.

At OLED Light levels of 35-40, red develops burn-in after ~1000 hours on 2016 WOLEDs and that should now increase to ~1600 hours on 2018 WOLEDs.

At OLED Light levels of 80+, red develops burn-in after ~300-400 hours and that should now increase to ~500-600 hours.

LG could have used this increased fill factor to incresse peak brightness by 10-17% but I suspect they elected to make better results on burn-in tests a higher priority.

They pushed things a little bit too far in 2017 to fend off Samsung's attack in the 'Brightness Wars' and opened up vulnerability on the burn-in front.

I suspect that this year they have made the devision to hold the line on peak brightness and pour the benefit of all improvemebts into doing a better job resisting differential-aging-related burn-in.
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post #14468 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 12:41 PM
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Waiting for someone to actually list some real improvements for 2018. Looking like it's not much, but at least we know they didn't just re-issue 2017 panels.

"If you weren't such an ignorant troll, you'd be adorable" -rogo
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post #14469 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 01:25 PM
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@fafrd do you happen to have the 2015 and 2016 pixel pics? I'm curious as to how much they are being improved every cycle.
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post #14470 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 01:47 PM
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Wondering does anyone know if LG has made this change in 2017 panels already or is this what was also done for the 2018 panels? https://www.oled-info.com/reports-sa...ructure-yb-rgb
If you read that it seems to indicate that they don't need to increase the size of the red pixel to have made a material change in 2017 OLED panels that would be more resistent to burn in since red is a direct component and you would not need to run the Y-B as hot for the white pixels to filter out for on screen red.

then there is this https://www.oled-info.com/lg-introdu...-and-tv-panels

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post #14471 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrck744 View Post
@fafrd do you happen to have the 2015 and 2016 pixel pics? I'm curious as to how much they are being improved every cycle.
I don't have them but I found this on HDTVTEST: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/oled5...1604274285.htm

This is for the 55E6P but the other 2016s shoukd be similar.

Red looks to be ~2/3 the width of white or blue (which look pretty similar).

Compared to 2017 where red seems to be closer to 1/2 the width of white.

And in the new 2018 pc, red seems to be close the the width of white (at least 4/5 or so).

The 2017s may actually be worse for differential-aging-related burn-in of red than the 2017s (but the 2018 should be superior to both).
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post #14472 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaz View Post
Wondering does anyone know if LG has made this change in 2017 panels already or is this what was also done for the 2018 panels? https://www.oled-info.com/reports-sa...ructure-yb-rgb
If you read that it seems to indicate that they don't need to increase the size of the red pixel to have made a material change in 2017 OLED panels that would be more resistent to burn in since red is a direct component and you would not need to run the Y-B as hot for the white pixels to filter out for on screen red.

then there is this https://www.oled-info.com/lg-introdu...-and-tv-panels
There were conflicting reports as to whether LG introduced a red layer into the stack for 2017 or just a second ylellow or blue layer. Whatever changes were made to stack composition, they may have resulted in increased red efficiency which may be what motivated LG to reduce the relativecdize of the red subpixel in 2017.

Now that red has been exposed as the subpixel color most prone to differential-agibg-based burn-in due to static logos of CNN and MSNBC as well as bright yellow HUDS of some games, it appears that LG has understood that thecred subpixel is at least as vulnerable as the blue subpixel (which is rarely used in static elements).

A change such as we have seen for 2018 would be consistent with designing red and green to be equally robust from / susceptible to differential-aging-related burn-in (green is the most efficient subpixel so it needs to be driven less hard than red in terms of mA/cm^2 for a desired output level).
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post #14473 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
...
The 2017s may actually be worse for differential-aging-related burn-in of red than the 2017s (but the 2018 should be superior to both).
If the previous quote I posted above is a change they made for 2017 over 2016 then they could have indeed increased the performance of red subpixels without increasing the size. We'll have to wait and see but I think the increase in size is related to increasing brightness.

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post #14474 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaz View Post
If the previous quote I posted above is a change they made for 2017 over 2016 then they could have indeed increased the performance of red subpixels without increasing the size. We'll have to wait and see but I think the increase in size is related to increasing brightness.
Yes, I don't think we know yet whether 2017 WOLEDs are more susceptible, less susceptible, or equally susceptible to differential-aging-related burn-in than 2016 WOLEDs. We'll need to wait until ~Jume and/or Rtings.com new test results to know.

LG has already stated that there is no increase in brightness for 2018, though reports suggest that 2018 WOLEDs will be able to deliver the full rated 900 Nits in D65 and not just on vivid.

So this change could also have been motivated by designing the panel to be closer to a native D65 so 'full-on' vivid output and calibrated max D65 output are closer to each other.

But no matter what, this change to red subpixel size is welcome news to anyone concerned about differential-aging-related burn-in...
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post #14475 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post
Waiting for someone to actually list some real improvements for 2018. Looking like it's not much, but at least we know they didn't just re-issue 2017 panels.
Yeah, it's an entirely new panel with an entirely new processor.

No improvements AT ALL!

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There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #14476 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
Yeah, it's an entirely new panel with an entirely new processor.

No improvements AT ALL!

Ok, ok, it's new and maybe improved, but will it matter... Looking forward to a D-Nice review.

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post #14477 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 05:19 PM
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Yeah seems like incremental improvements, with no word on whether they've addressed the reliability and consistency issues people have complained about.

Plus not too future proof without HDMI 2.1 either. Yeah I know it was finalized only at the end of November but it would make more sense to ship these products in the fall, which is when most TVs are bought anyways, and then get HDMI 2.1 in there.

Otherwise, it may make more sense to buy 2017 models and plan to upgrade again years later.
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post #14478 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 05:33 PM
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Yeah seems like incremental improvements, with no word on whether they've addressed the reliability and consistency issues people have complained about.

Plus not too future proof without HDMI 2.1 either. Yeah I know it was finalized only at the end of November but it would make more sense to ship these products in the fall, which is when most TVs are bought anyways, and then get HDMI 2.1 in there.

Otherwise, it may make more sense to buy 2017 models and plan to upgrade again years later.
A faster processor supporting another flavor of HDR is nice, as is improved motion with suport for BFI, but the enlarged red subpixel is huge, in my view. We'll probably see that the new panel can deliver increased peak brightness, but it is almost certainly going to deliver ~40% slower aging of red (1/160%) and improved immunity to differential-aging-related burn in.

Of course, in my (9 WOLED) experience, near-black uniformity trumps all of these improvements and I would not give up my prerty-good-uniformity 65C6P for a less-uniform 65C8P even to gain these incremental improvements.

So we'll have to see what early owners and reviewers say, but if LG has succeeded to reverse the step backwards in near-black uniformity that they unfortunately took in 2017 and succeeds to get back to at least where they were in the near-black uniformity department in 2016, I say that 2018 was a 'knock it out of the park' kind of year for LG...
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post #14479 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post
Ok, ok, it's new and maybe improved, but will it matter... Looking forward to a D-Nice review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Yeah seems like incremental improvements, with no word on whether they've addressed the reliability and consistency issues people have complained about.

Plus not too future proof without HDMI 2.1 either. Yeah I know it was finalized only at the end of November but it would make more sense to ship these products in the fall, which is when most TVs are bought anyways, and then get HDMI 2.1 in there.

Otherwise, it may make more sense to buy 2017 models and plan to upgrade again years later.
Literally every year is incremental improvements. Even what I'd call "step-wise" improvements are (1) rarely revolutionary (2) occur very infrequently.

It's pointless to try to project if/when you'll get a "step" because that's typically just about 2 years worth of progress.

I remember the original Kuro demos from CES where everyone in the room understood "once this is a product, that's going to be quite something". This was also always going to be true of the very first OLEDs.

Otherwise, I'd argue the leaps have been in small quanta while none of them have been quite quantum.

But by all means, define it however you want.

That said, the new LG has a brand new panel and a brain new processing engine. I suspect that'll be true again in 2020. But whenever it's true, it'll be another nice gain or whatever is out. It doesn't obsolete a thing and most humans will be hard pressed to see the differences.

Many here complain about LG's issues with motion (should be improved), some honestly pretty bogus concerns about brightness with some more substantive concerns about ABL (likely improved), and also about vertical band issues (who knows? but the fact that the fab is mature, the backplane making is mature, et al. suggests this could also be better).

But cue the whining!

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #14480 of 16102 Old 01-10-2018, 10:49 PM
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No whining, just that the timing isn't the best to buy these models since we're on the cusp of a major revision to HDMI which will affect not only displays but receivers, set top boxes, disc players, game consoles, etc.

And there just isn't enough compelling content to justify buying now unless you watch a lot of Netflix or Amazon.

2018 would have been more interesting if they're broadcasting at least some of the Winter Olympics in 4K and HDR. Same with the World Cup.

Same with the Super Bowl for that matter. They used 4K cameras last year, but there's no way to deliver those broadcasts, unless NBC/Comcast set up streaming just for the event.

If they announced NFL and NBA 4k broadcasts starting in the fall, it would be very hard to resist. But without more content, waiting until 2019, at least for HDMI, sounds viable. I don't want to upgrade my receiver twice. Expense isn't even the biggest issue here. I'd spend $400-600 for the AVR. But to get rid of it, I got to find a buyer or try to get it recycled and these things are not tiny. I recently went through some hassle trying to arrange a pick up time for an old 42-inch LCD with a green recycling service out of Oakland which only picks up in the South Bay once or twice a month, versus taking to some commercial recycler whom I would have had to pay to drop off the thing with them.
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post #14481 of 16102 Old 01-11-2018, 06:13 AM
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Back to panel variations:

I compared other macro shots on "lesnumeriques.com" and there were also panel differences between 2016 and 2017. But there is more. In 2016, the LG G6 (tested in May 2016) and Loewe bild7 got the 2017 panel! Before getting the norm in 2017, the 2017 panel was in 2016 an optimized panel for the more exclusive Signature line and high end Loewe OLED. Some 2017 sets from other manufactures also had only the 2016 panel, like the more entry level sets from Philips and Loewe bild5.

It seems LGD has a production line with different panel specifications for low and high end tier.

Sorry it´s German, but you can use Google translation:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...1&postID=95#95
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post #14482 of 16102 Old 01-11-2018, 05:54 PM
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Or at least "had". No signs of distinction in 17s between high and low end. But knowing the different lines they have for different markets that might need longevity (such as Sony and FSI pro monitors and whoever is buying convex and concave screens), and seeing the A7 model in Europe last year using the 2015 panel (which is possibly also sold to other longer term customers), it makes sense they produce different panels concurrently.
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post #14483 of 16102 Old 01-13-2018, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Back to panel variations:

I compared other macro shots on "lesnumeriques.com" and there were also panel differences between 2016 and 2017. But there is more. In 2016, the LG G6 (tested in May 2016) and Loewe bild7 got the 2017 panel! Before getting the norm in 2017, the 2017 panel was in 2016 an optimized panel for the more exclusive Signature line and high end Loewe OLED. Some 2017 sets from other manufactures also had only the 2016 panel, like the more entry level sets from Philips and Loewe bild5.

It seems LGD has a production line with different panel specifications for low and high end tier.

Sorry it´s German, but you can use Google translation:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?a...1&postID=95#95
Rtings.com generally shows a picture-zoom of subpixel design, but someonecshoukd tell them to up their game - their images are too fuzzy to see the level of detail in these recently-posted images and if LG is truly starting to design different panels for different TV tiers, it seems like an important aspect to check/confirm...

In terms of the increased subpixel sizes that have been discovered on the 2018 panel, these changes should be a win/win/win across the board:

SDR ABL should increase by 10% or more across the board (unless LG decides to reserve some of this increase to improve aging/burn-in).

Below 25% ABL should increase from 430 Nits to 470-500 Nits.

The entire curve should move up by 10-20% and at 87%, for example, ABL should increase from ~150 Nits to 165-180 Nits.

At 100%, ABL should be able to increase from 130 Nits to 145-160 Nits.

HDR ABL should also increase as well, though probably just meanng that close to 900 Nits can be delivered at D65 rather than only on vivid.

Aside from balancing red subpixel aging closer to green (and possibly both red and green cliser to blue), the modified design also hopefully tines native panel output closer to D65 so that all subpixels age more equally when delivering brightest (D65) white and 'Vivid' puts out a more usable native peak white...
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post #14484 of 16102 Old 01-14-2018, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Rtings.com generally shows a picture-zoom of subpixel design, but someonecshoukd tell them to up their game - their images are too fuzzy to see the level of detail in these recently-posted images and if LG is truly starting to design different panels for different TV tiers, it seems like an important aspect to check/confirm...

In terms of the increased subpixel sizes that have been discovered on the 2018 panel, these changes should be a win/win/win across the board:

SDR ABL should increase by 10% or more across the board (unless LG decides to reserve some of this increase to improve aging/burn-in).

Below 25% ABL should increase from 430 Nits to 470-500 Nits.

The entire curve should move up by 10-20% and at 87%, for example, ABL should increase from ~150 Nits to 165-180 Nits.

At 100%, ABL should be able to increase from 130 Nits to 145-160 Nits.

HDR ABL should also increase as well, though probably just meanng that close to 900 Nits can be delivered at D65 rather than only on vivid.

Aside from balancing red subpixel aging closer to green (and possibly both red and green cliser to blue), the modified design also hopefully tines native panel output closer to D65 so that all subpixels age more equally when delivering brightest (D65) white and 'Vivid' puts out a more usable native peak white...
This. I been saying for awhile now that I read an article where LG said that they had to sacrifice panel brightness to implement passive 3d. To reduce crosstalk (I think) pass3d required a large vertical space between pixels rows and since pasdive 3d is no longer a feature they could increase the surface area of the subpixels. The implication was that it would equal a brighter panel at same power. They made it sound like the subpixels were already this size but were artificially covered (or restricted) and it was just a simple matter of uncovering them. I read it in early 2017 sometime but cant find it now.....

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post #14485 of 16102 Old 01-15-2018, 12:20 AM
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Couple of things here

New owner of 65a1e and very pleased. No banding or tinting visible on content, zero
QC, breakin and calibration very well executed at VE. Well worth the investment

Quite honestly, after spending hours comparing comparing Sony on cinema home vs E7 with technicolor setting side by side, the Sony was patently the superior display. The

motion processing wasn't even close, and as a sports junkie that was case closed.
Not sure how all the "experts" rated the E7 best of 2017 when the Sony clearly delivered superior processing.
Only rationale I can deduce was the Sonys lack of DV gave the edge by default.


Others may disagree with my personal assessment, but when watching 4K HDR blu Rays on the Oppo 203, this is as close to videophile perfection I've had the pleasure to enjoy. And I've always bought only the best HD displays since 2004 from the superb (but inherently flawed) SXRDs, to a couple of Kuro elites, and now this Oled.

I think the 2018 LGs with new processing chips and BFI, should be able to match the '17 Sonys.

I read with great interest that LG has now changed the size of the red sub-pixel. As someone who watches a couple hours of CNN and MSNBC each evening to catch up on the daily foibles of our esteemed chief executive, I worry greatly about how much and how rapidly I am deteriorating my display. I do use the channel guide every 10-15 minutes to move around where the red logos appear on the screen, but from what we know about the lifespan of the red sub-pixel on the '17 panels, what would you conjecture is the useable lifespan of my display?

I would hope for at least 5 years, since by then 2.1 should be well established and by then my preferred screen size of 77" or larger display sizes shouldn't run too much more than the quite reasonable Black Friday sales price I spent on the Sony

Do I need to foresake my evening news viewing habits to preserve my display, or are the '17 panels robust enough to safely give me years of service?

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post #14486 of 16102 Old 01-15-2018, 01:45 AM
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Forsake them? Perhaps (for the sake of your OLED if nothing else), and diversify (to include some that at least pretend not to wear their bias like a badge of honor). And maybe the LG isn't as bad as you imagined (or you compared a preponderance of 1080i and under/bit-starved streaming to reach your conclusion). It won at the VE shootout, and those weren't all experts but enthusiasts, too. The differences at 1080p and up are rather minuscule short of motion settings (likely similar if BFI is disabled on the Sony). That said, I bought my 77" G6 from VE, but he convinced me to have it drop-shipped from a few states over instead of shipping it cross-country twice so that I could take advantage of the break-in/calibration service (that's only as good as the availability of product allows). I regret that today (though I question how much it would have helped given how few were available, apparently, at the time), as LG/D didn't make any effort to screen for banding even on the $20k behemoth. That was in March of last year, and I was told it would be the last one (even though I'm sure it was still listed on sale at the site at least into midsummer). Whenever I buy again, it will be back to Best Buy if they're still around and hopefully off their blacklist for returns (on which I probably earned a spot in 2016 after multiple returns).

I saw your posts in the A1E thread about seeing no banding, but I still wonder how many of the real-world show sequences you've checked to definitively make the claim on the first post (forget the slides): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ole...ignetting.html

I actually tend to believe you because I have a 65" G6 (3D backup because it's that good) that looks revelatory in comparison to the jailbar nightmare that is the larger size.

Last edited by video_analysis; 01-15-2018 at 01:51 AM.
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post #14487 of 16102 Old 01-15-2018, 12:50 PM
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We have discussed this banding issue many times over the years but now that it's almost the end of the model year and with the number of sets I've seen i can say with good confidence that there are bad sets with banding on both the A1 and the LGs as you mentioned. Every set has some sort of banding but most of it on most sets is not noticeable when viewing content to most of the population. On every OLED, if you look hard enough, you will see some sort of banding and or tinting, it's just a characteristic of OLED right now. I can also say, from my experience that for some reason, banding is more pronounced on the lower end LGs (B7, C7) vs the more expensive LGs (E7, G7 W7) and the A1Es. I have no idea why. I suspect the panels are graded. This doesn't mean you can't get a perfect B7 or a bad G7 or A1E this is just an observation after looking at a lot of sets. The one thing you can be certain is that the W7 is like a hand made set. I guess because they make so few. They all looked great to me and the calibration OTB was very good.

I've seen near perfect panels from both manufacturers and some that needed to be sent back regardless of the model.
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post #14488 of 16102 Old 01-15-2018, 01:33 PM
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The 2016 models should have been hand-built, too, when they were SRP'd at $20k surely, yet you can see just how bad the below is (highly visible in content when the luminance and background are correct; i.e. all over the first episode of the Amazon prime Electric Dream series). I don't think LG will be very interested in my pleas at this point as they have become numb to the complaints. Damn them for getting me hooked on 3D with their stellar delivery.
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post #14489 of 16102 Old 01-15-2018, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Red is much bigger than last year and yes, the fill factor seems also to be improved.

And we have now BFI (Motion Pro) in LG new OLED TVs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naf1nlD93vw


Super excited about BFI! Sample and hold is a huge limitation of an otherwise great screen technology and I shake my head all the time at my C7P with an otherwise great picture, but terrible motion artifacts. And I don’t care what people say about the latest updates making it “better”, it is still quite visible.

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post #14490 of 16102 Old 01-17-2018, 11:17 AM
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OLED Inkjet Printing Market Overview

FYI. https://www.oled-info.com/oled-ink-j...ion-early-2018
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