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post #15361 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Completely new panel structure for 2019 with much better fill rate:





https://translate.google.com/transla...00241,15700248


Also different to the Philips panel.

Beware , "Les numeriques" merged two pictures to make this one, they always do that .They take one with the RWB sub pixels and another one with GR . It's obvious if you look at the right part of the photo . I'll try to obtain some valid data from this .

(BTW , the Philips 803 was a 55'' , this one is a 65'' (Panasonic) , you can't compare because each size has its own sub pixels pattern .)
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post #15362 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
Completely new panel structure for 2019 with much better fill rate:





https://translate.google.com/transla...00241,15700248


Also different to the Philips panel.
Great find. This does mean Philips had a custom panel rather than an early 2019 panel. The article mentioned all OLEDs at CES having this new panel, which would mean Panasonic's is not custom as the rep claimed in an interview I posted in another thread.
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post #15363 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 08:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Did you not see "hung on the ceiling of a vehicle" in the quoted?

The idea for transparent back-side window displays is from first user experience principles. I hadn't seen it as a concept from LG Display. I'm assuming it's on the same practicality level as a rollable that hangs from a car ceiling.
I did see the "hung on the ceiling" reference. What I meant was reference to transparent OLEDs (like you said), as applicable to car windows, of which there is no mention.

What I'm pointing out is that transparent displays are completely different conceptually. In the case of the ceiling, it's not transparent---the black is from the lack of light. In the case of a window, the light shines through it, resulting in no black whatsoever without a blocking array of some kind, presumably LCD. It's a different technology than the ceiling comment they made in that article, and if fully transparent, it would have limited usage. Certainly no movie, TV, or similar. Perhaps a book, or some other semi-images that warn of close object on that side?

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post #15364 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 08:31 AM
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BTW , the Philips 803 was a 55'' , this one is a 65'' (Panasonic) , you can't compare because each size has its own sub pixels pattern

55" and 65" were always identical in pixel structure. The 77C8 even has the same sub pixel pattern of the smaller 2017 sets. They only differ in sizes and not in their shape. This here has clearly a different shape to the sub pixel pattern from the Philips OLED.
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post #15365 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 08:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
Beware , "Les numeriques" merged two pictures to make this one, they always do that .They take one with the RWB sub pixels and another one with GR . It's obvious if you look at the right part of the photo . I'll try to obtain some valid data from this.
What part of the image led you to believe this? The small brighter line on the far right?
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post #15366 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
I did see the "hung on the ceiling" reference. What I meant was reference to transparent OLEDs (like you said), as applicable to car windows, of which there is no mention.

What I'm pointing out is that transparent displays are completely different conceptually. In the case of the ceiling, it's not transparent---the black is from the lack of light. In the case of a window, the light shines through it, resulting in no black whatsoever without a blocking array of some kind, presumably LCD. It's a different technology than the ceiling comment they made in that article, and if fully transparent, it would have limited usage. Certainly no movie, TV, or similar. Perhaps a book, or some other semi-images that warn of close object on that side?
Respectfully, how big is the conceptual leap from the concepts that LGD is showing for home windows (below) to car windows? Certainly some safety and power considerations, but not much of a leap at all here.

http://blog.lgdisplay.com/2018/11/%E...0%88%EC%9D%B4/

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post #15367 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
55" and 65" were always identical in pixel structure. The 77C8 even has the same sub pixel pattern of the smaller 2017 sets. They only differ in sizes and not in their shape. This here has clearly a different shape to the sub pixel pattern from the Philips OLED.
Well, more similar than identical . But I agree this new panel is different, the numbers show this . (I'll post my new numbers soon .)





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What part of the image led you to believe this? The small brighter line on the far right?

The blue sub pixels are misaligned with the white ones and cover the green ones . See here :
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post #15368 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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Here are the new data : the picture from 'les numériques' is not very good, so the numbers will be updated when better pictures are available .


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post #15369 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
Here are the new data : the picture from 'les numériques' is not very good, so the numbers will be updated when better pictures are available .


Wow, if these estimates are valudates, it translates to a ~33% increase in aperature ratio.

At a minimum, that should mean a 33% slower aging rate (and 133% time to burn-in of 2018 WOLEDs).

It may also result in increased peak brightness levels (at least at D65) or at least relaxed ABL...
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post #15370 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 11:24 AM
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According to a german youtube video, the new LG generation allows the user to adjust the brightness level of the white subpixel (off, low, middle, high) in HDR and SDR content. So you can also reach over 700nits in SDR mode or purer colors in HDR mode.


But he also make wrong statements about the panel ("same panel like last year and no differences in panel control - only A9 gen 2 etc..."), which we all know is nonsense (better BFI mode, new subpixel pattern). So I don´t know how reliable his information is.


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post #15371 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ALMA View Post
But he also make wrong statements about the panel ("same panel like last year" and no differences in panel control - only A9 gen 2 etc..."), which we all know is nonsense (better BFI mode, new subpixel pattern). So I don´t know how reliable his information is.
LG did the same thing . It seems that LG refuses to communicate on panel iteration .
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post #15372 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bombyx View Post
LG did the same thing . It seems that LG refuses to communicate on panel iteration .
I believe part of the confusion may stem from the fact that LGD co siders the WOLED Stack itself the most critical aspect to 'change'.

Different 'designs' on the same IGZO and WOLED stack manufacturing flow may not register with LG as a 'panel change'.

This is a fantastic paper for anyone that want to understand what goes onto changing the WOLED stack as well as all the details you ever want to understand about the causs of temporary IR and permament burn-in on WOLED and the compensation technologies LG has developed to combat them: https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/60365.pdf
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post #15373 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 12:02 PM
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ALMA just posted this in the Top Emission thread: https://www.oled-a.org/lg-to-use-mmg...03_121018.html

LG introducing MMG (which will bring 8.5G manufacturing of 65" and 75/77" WOLED panels down to 10.5G-esque levels).

LG will introduce 48" WOLED panels (3 out of the extra space), finally bringing WOLED further down-market.

MMG will reduce 8.5G 65" and 75/77" WOLED panel costs by ~33%.

LG will be converting another LCD line to 8.5G WOLED production.

Seperately, it appears that ramp-up of the 10.5G line may be delayed to Q2 2021: http://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190109140127

'Kwon said, "Although there will be a difference in viewpoints, we are planning to expand rollable products targeting a few companies." "Whether rollable TVs can be priced at a level that consumers can easily accommodate is an initial proliferation "We will secure technological mass production and speed up our cost competitiveness so that we will be able to record the same sales volume as LG Signature," he said.

Accordingly, we are preparing for the OLED panel supply issue ahead of time. Kwon said, "The OLED production volume will increase significantly in the second half of the year, and if LG Display starts 10.5G in the second quarter of 2021, the production will increase rapidly for the second consecutive year. "We are going to increase the weight of 8K to 88 inches, and we are considering a large rollerblad as an alternative," he said.'

Between the additional 8.5G LCD conversionss and MMG, this may be a more prudent pathway to increasing production volumes and lowering costs, especially if WOLED printing at 10.5G scale is still under development.

We should learn a great deal more at LGDs earnings call in 1+ month...
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post #15374 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Respectfully, how big is the conceptual leap from the concepts that LGD is showing for home windows (below) to car windows? Certainly some safety and power considerations, but not much of a leap at all here.

http://blog.lgdisplay.com/2018/11/%E...0%88%EC%9D%B4/
Black cannot be done on a transparent OLED without an additional LCD layer (or some other blocking tech), and that's not amenable to being rolled out like mentioned in the article. If you display black, it's see-through. I don't even think I've seen a roll-out LCD array in any form actually, but in any case in the case of car windows, *if* you wish the transparency to be there, then you'll be viewing different content than you might on a roof. (Such as in that link you showed).

Could you put one there? Sure, I suppose. Would it show what a non-transparent OLED can? Nope. Would such a thing on the windshield be incredibly useful? Sure!

There has been some research on whether or not a see-through transparency can be "interpreted" by the human brain as black (some kind of "transparency effect"), but it's still no where near the same as what you'd have on a roof.

It's just different, is all I'm saying.

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post #15375 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 02:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Wow, if these estimates are valudates, it translates to a ~33% increase in aperature ratio.

At a minimum, that should mean a 33% slower aging rate (and 133% time to burn-in of 2018 WOLEDs).

It may also result in increased peak brightness levels (at least at D65) or at least relaxed ABL...
I'm still confused by it: Red incremented, Green (Verde) flat lined, but the red was doubled in 2 years. Perhaps that's a response to the CNN effect?
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post #15376 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 04:30 PM
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A quick comparison :





(photos from "les numériques" (Oled) and RTINGS (plasma and Q6)
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post #15377 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 04:31 PM
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It's pretty funny to me that people still claim all over AVS, other enthusiast sites, and the regular media that OLED technology has flatlined.

We're getting:

1) Improved fill factor, and that trend is far from over because...
2) Top emission, with higher peak brightness, better lifespan, and... more fill factor!
3) Faster refresh and better motion handling

On a display that already has:

1) Really good color reproduction
2) World-class contrast ratios, including inky, Hawking-like blacks

Oh, and several more years of cost reductions appear to be baked in thanks to:

1) Multi-mode glass (cutting different sizes from one substrate)
2) Bigger and more fabs

And maybe (though I really doubt it) printing is coming. if it does, we will see

1) Even better fill factors
2) Even better color reproduction
3) Possibly better life (if a magic blue comes to fruition, which is why I doubt we're going to see printing at all)

It seems 2019 is a big improvement with 2020-21 likely to improve strongly again.

There may be nothing left to complain about by 2022-23.

But I'm sure some will find a way.
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post #15378 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
It's pretty funny to me that people still claim all over AVS, other enthusiast sites, and the regular media that OLED technology has flatlined.

We're getting:

1) Improved fill factor, and that trend is far from over because...
2) Top emission, with higher peak brightness, better lifespan, and... more fill factor!
3) Faster refresh and better motion handling

On a display that already has:

1) Really good color reproduction
2) World-class contrast ratios, including inky, Hawking-like blacks

Oh, and several more years of cost reductions appear to be baked in thanks to:

1) Multi-mode glass (cutting different sizes from one substrate)
2) Bigger and more fabs

And maybe (though I really doubt it) printing is coming. if it does, we will see

1) Even better fill factors
2) Even better color reproduction
3) Possibly better life (if a magic blue comes to fruition, which is why I doubt we're going to see printing at all)

It seems 2019 is a big improvement with 2020-21 likely to improve strongly again.

There may be nothing left to complain about by 2022-23.

But I'm sure some will find a way.
Nice summary!

What's the relation between a magical blue emitter and printing?

Complaint will be "There's no content!".
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post #15379 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
ALMA just posted this in the Top Emission thread: https://www.oled-a.org/lg-to-use-mmg...03_121018.html

LG introducing MMG (which will bring 8.5G manufacturing of 65" and 75/77" WOLED panels down to 10.5G-esque levels).

LG will introduce 48" WOLED panels (3 out of the extra space), finally bringing WOLED further down-market.

MMG will reduce 8.5G 65" and 75/77" WOLED panel costs by ~33%.

LG will be converting another LCD line to 8.5G WOLED production.

Seperately, it appears that ramp-up of the 10.5G line may be delayed to Q2 2021: http://www.zdnet.co.kr/view/?no=20190109140127

'Kwon said, "Although there will be a difference in viewpoints, we are planning to expand rollable products targeting a few companies." "Whether rollable TVs can be priced at a level that consumers can easily accommodate is an initial proliferation "We will secure technological mass production and speed up our cost competitiveness so that we will be able to record the same sales volume as LG Signature," he said.

Accordingly, we are preparing for the OLED panel supply issue ahead of time. Kwon said, "The OLED production volume will increase significantly in the second half of the year, and if LG Display starts 10.5G in the second quarter of 2021, the production will increase rapidly for the second consecutive year. "We are going to increase the weight of 8K to 88 inches, and we are considering a large rollerblad as an alternative," he said.'

Between the additional 8.5G LCD conversionss and MMG, this may be a more prudent pathway to increasing production volumes and lowering costs, especially if WOLED printing at 10.5G scale is still under development.

We should learn a great deal more at LGDs earnings call in 1+ month...
From the reporting of that same press conference: "We are setting a formal direction to expand 77-inch sales this year."

So, 2019 is going to be the year of the 77".
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post #15380 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 04:45 PM
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Hdmi 2.1 is a good reason for me to jump in but there likely won’t be a full 2.1 ecosystem — AVRs and UHD source devices (UHD Blu Ray, new streaming boxes with 2.1, consoles).

So I may or may not do it. Live sports in UHD HDR would be a big draw for me, regular NBA and NFL games.
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post #15381 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 06:03 PM
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From the reporting of that same press conference: "We are setting a formal direction to expand 77-inch sales this year."

So, 2019 is going to be the year of the 77".
Sounds like sub-$5000 77C9 is a near-certainty .

I've been saying for several years now that LG has been holding back 77" WOLED sales because of relatively high pricing.

Fundamentally, a 77" WOLED panel costs 150% the cost of a 65" WOLED panel. When you factor in that the other 20-50% of WOLED TV cost is size-independant, no way a 77" WOLED TV costs even 150% the cost of a 65" WOLED TV.

Last year's 65C9P Launch MSRP was $3500, while the 77C9P Launch MSRP was $9000 (257% the Launch MSRP of the 65C8P) - that's called holding-back sales volumes. In November, the 65C8P dipped under $2000 while the 77C8P dipped under $5000(at online retailers, if you knew where to look). That's still 250% (and still holding back sales).

Some are speculating that the 65C9P will launch with an MSRP of $3000 - who knows, but it's unlikely to be higher than the $3500 launch MSRP of the 65C8P last year.

So whether we end up looking at a 65C9P Launch MSRP of $3000 or $3500, a 'formal direction to expand 77-inch (WOLED) sales this year' should translate to a Launch MSRP for the 77C9P of between $4500-$5500 (boy, wouldn't a Launch MSRP of $4999 be nice ).

And assuming we see the 65C9P dip under $2000 again this November (which is exceedingly likely), seeing the 77C9P dip under $3000 this November is not out of the question
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post #15382 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Hdmi 2.1 is a good reason for me to jump in but there likely won’t be a full 2.1 ecosystem — AVRs and UHD source devices (UHD Blu Ray, new streaming boxes with 2.1, consoles).

So I may or may not do it. Live sports in UHD HDR would be a big draw for me, regular NBA and NFL games.
That's probably going to take another few years.

Broadcasters are unlikely going to be motivated to make the required investments until the installed base of TVs that will benefit is relatively large...
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post #15383 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 11:46 PM
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That's probably going to take another few years.

Broadcasters are unlikely going to be motivated to make the required investments until the installed base of TVs that will benefit is relatively large...
I'm not sure it's the broadcasters. I think the leagues are wary. They know sports sold a lot of HDTVs 15-20 years ago.

So they probably want something extra for those rights.

Because what's happening is attendance is declining, as people are fed up with high ticket prices, high parking fees and concessions prices.

People can have better food and watch games on the big screen. Sports teams are trying to compete with that by putting in enterprise-level Wifi and mobile towers at stadiums as well as big TVs for replays overhead.

A lot of team owners don't want to see people have more reason to watch games at home.
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post #15384 of 15904 Old 01-09-2019, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Nice summary!

What's the relation between a magical blue emitter and printing?
There is no soluble blue OLED material on earth at this time with a lifespan acceptable for a consumer display. For printable OLEDs, you need a soluble OLED material. The search is approaching 20 years and the progress has been minimal. That isn't to say it's impossible, just that it's been a hard nut to crack.

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Sounds like sub-$5000 77C9 is a near-certainty .

I've been saying for several years now that LG has been holding back 77" WOLED sales because of relatively high pricing.
This has always been true in display. The ratio of costrice has been oddly off forever. Maybe that gap begins to narrow sharply this year for OLED though.
Quote:
Some are speculating that the 65C9P will launch with an MSRP of $3000 - who knows, but it's unlikely to be higher than the $3500 launch MSRP of the 65C8P last year.
If they don't start lowering the launch prices every year, they can never hit the volume targets. I'm a broken record on this, but the more they sell the less they are going to get away with the "chump pricing strategy" of suckering people in at prices 30-40% higher than others pay just a few months later. And they will be forgoing so many sales during that period -- simply due to downward sloping demand curves -- they will never catch up on the back end.

Intro pricing for 65-inch models needs to fall by about $500 per year. Mid-year price cuts will ultimately be an irrelevant part of the strategy.
Quote:
And assuming we see the 65C9P dip under $2000 again this November (which is exceedingly likely), seeing the 77C9P dip under $3000 this November is not out of the question
I'm looking for $1699-ish Black Friday pricing, maybe $1599. Not "looking" as in I personally care, but rather as in.... Are they seriously building out all this capacity in 2020-21-22? Because if they are, the 65s need to march down to <$1500 and the 55s need to hit about $800. And the forthcoming 49s need to be heading toward $500. This is where we will test two propositions that are articles of faith:

1) OLED is fundamentally cheaper to build than LCD. We've been told this since 2000 or so. It's yet to come true even at volumes approaching 1 billion in mobile screens.

2) You can sell 10+ million OLED TVs in a year on the way to 20 million and you can -- as one of the world's leading LCD producers -- move your customers (OEM and end consumer) away from LCD with a superior product that is priced similarly.
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post #15385 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 03:09 AM
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So whether we end up looking at a 65C9P Launch MSRP of $3000 or $3500, a 'formal direction to expand 77-inch (WOLED) sales this year' should translate to a Launch MSRP for the 77C9P of between $4500-$5500 (boy, wouldn't a Launch MSRP of $4999 be nice ).

And assuming we see the 65C9P dip under $2000 again this November (which is exceedingly likely), seeing the 77C9P dip under $3000 this November is not out of the question
indeed. With them being the only ones with HDMI 2.1 on board they could be wiping the floor with everthing else on the market, I guess.
But it sounds too good to be true, so it won't happen.

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post #15386 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
There is no soluble blue OLED material on earth at this time with a lifespan acceptable for a consumer display. For printable OLEDs, you need a soluble OLED material. The search is approaching 20 years and the progress has been minimal. That isn't to say it's impossible, just that it's been a hard nut to crack.



This has always been true in display. The ratio of costrice has been oddly off forever. Maybe that gap begins to narrow sharply this year for OLED though.


If they don't start lowering the launch prices every year, they can never hit the volume targets. I'm a broken record on this, but the more they sell the less they are going to get away with the "chump pricing strategy" of suckering people in at prices 30-40% higher than others pay just a few months later. And they will be forgoing so many sales during that period -- simply due to downward sloping demand curves -- they will never catch up on the back end.

Intro pricing for 65-inch models needs to fall by about $500 per year. Mid-year price cuts will ultimately be an irrelevant part of the strategy.


I'm looking for $1699-ish Black Friday pricing, maybe $1599. Not "looking" as in I personally care, but rather as in.... Are they seriously building out all this capacity in 2020-21-22? Because if they are, the 65s need to march down to <$1500 and the 55s need to hit about $800. And the forthcoming 49s need to be heading toward $500. This is where we will test two propositions that are articles of faith:

1) OLED is fundamentally cheaper to build than LCD. We've been told this since 2000 or so. It's yet to come true even at volumes approaching 1 billion in mobile screens.

2) You can sell 10+ million OLED TVs in a year on the way to 20 million and you can -- as one of the world's leading LCD producers -- move your customers (OEM and end consumer) away from LCD with a superior product that is priced similarly.
Appreciate the analysis and historical perspective, rogo!
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post #15387 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 07:24 AM
 
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1) OLED is fundamentally cheaper to build than LCD. We've been told this since 2000 or so. It's yet to come true even at volumes approaching 1 billion in mobile screens.
The bulk of phone OLED's (the one on my Note 2 is over 6 years old) were using Samsung's individual subpixel technique, no? Wouldn't that make it even more expensive than the LGD phone "panels"?
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post #15388 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 07:39 AM
 
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This has always been true in display. The ratio of costrice has been oddly off forever. Maybe that gap begins to narrow sharply this year for OLED though.
Something that is odd forever is no longer odd; its the rule. What's the rule that we're missing I wonder? I've said this for a very long time: I absolutely love the technology, always have, but this is a phenomenally stupid industry. To quote myself: "I'd rather sell urinal pucks".


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Originally Posted by rogo View Post
If they don't start lowering the launch prices every year, they can never hit the volume targets. I'm a broken record on this, but the more they sell the less they are going to get away with the "chump pricing strategy" of suckering people in at prices 30-40% higher than others pay just a few months later. And they will be forgoing so many sales during that period -- simply due to downward sloping demand curves -- they will never catch up on the back end.
Curious, in your opinion does this make Samsung more worried or less? To me, it really seems as if they've been in distraction damage control for a while now (curve, meaningless QD).
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post #15389 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 07:57 AM
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LG will introduce 48" WOLED panels (3 out of the extra space), finally bringing WOLED further down-market.

So it looks like we are now at Samsung's Galaxy Book 12" OLED tablet, 13,3'', 14'', 15,6'' OLED laptops and 48'', 55', '65'', 77'' OLED TVs.
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post #15390 of 15904 Old 01-10-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Something that is odd forever is no longer odd; its the rule. What's the rule that we're missing I wonder? I've said this for a very long time: I absolutely love the technology, always have, but this is a phenomenally stupid industry. To quote myself: "I'd rather sell urinal pucks".
It's simply supply and demand. They are only able to produce a certain number of 77" panels while also maintaining 55" and 65" output. If there are enough people competing for those few panels, the price will remain high.

Regarding the earlier analysis about needing lower launch prices, I don't see this ending. Both Samsung and Sony do this for their premium TVs, and we see this pricing strategy for all kinds of retail goods to start high above expected price and gradually reduce to make people feel like they are getting a good deal at the "discounted" price. With this strategy last year, we actually saw an early fall increase in cost for 55" panels because production couldn't meet demand. OLED is well known as superior to LCD and desired. All LG has to do is price according to what people are willing to pay to sell enough to match production volumes.
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