OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 528 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15811 of 15845 Old 05-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
(I might be misinterpreting the phrasing, but...)
One question I have is -- Are there two concurrent scanout passes or four concurrent scanout passes at the time?
If it's refreshing four strips concurrently, and both strips are refreshing with the same image data, that would generate the zigzag artifact problem.




To avoid the zigzag artifact, the raster wipe from top-to-bottom must be permanently continuously assigned to the same frame, from top-to-bottom, in the one continuous top-to-bottom scanout wipe. Necessarily that means that the other concurrent scanout wipe (even as the wipe hands-over to the next segment) must be assigned to a different frame.

I can visually emulate all the theoretically possible "zig-zag avoiding" scanout patterns of 120Hz+BFI in my human head, but it's hard to explain in words without diagrams. However, I have an old diagram of the double-window rolling scan technique:



If this is how LG OLED does it, and uses 1/60sec scanout, the scan passes would be 1/240sec (4ms) apart, vertically spaced at 1/4 screen height vertically. So that there's only one scanout pass (the ON pass or the OFF pass) per quarter-display, to keep in tune with the backplane.

The two rolling windows would be permanently assigned its own consistent refresh cycle; the rolling window above the bottom will always be the next refresh cycle frame AFTER the one in the bottom rolling window (only way to avoid those pesky zig zag artifacts) -- it's an absolute requirement if you don't want zig zag aritfacts. The zig zag artifact problem is confirmed (not an assumption) so zig-zag-avoidance is simply 101 basic advice; the fundamental consistent assignment of a consistent refresh cycle to a scanout pass even in its continued hand-overs between sections/segments of the same display.

If you're multiscanning a display with multiple visible simultaneous rolling scan windows -- AND -- you want to avoid zig zag artifacts -- then each scanout row refresh need to be permanently assigned its consistent refresh cycle frame from top-to-bottom even through the handover of the row refresh from one display strip to the next display strip.

Now, if the LG OLED uses a 1/120sec velocity scanout pass, then only one rolling window is needed (And two concurrent scanout passes, one "OFF", one "ON"), but it all depends on how the panel/backplane is wired.

I wish I had filmed a high speed video of the 120Hz+BFI to add to www.blurbusters.com/scanout high speed videos. That would answer SO many questions, indeed. Right now I'm making assumptions until someone points a Samsung Galaxy 960fps at www.testufo.com/scanout test pattern on a LG 120Hz+BFI.
I went to the trouble of my more complcated explanation precisely to avoid this confusion.

It is a split-column, one line in the top-half of the array and the corresponding line of the bottom-half of the array can be written in parallel with different data (meaning at least one half-column is loaded with data corresponding to black, since LG has no way to get 240Hz frame data into the TV).

As your previous post clarifies, it appears like a continuous refresh from top to bottom requiring 8.3ms from begining of first line to end of last line (120Hz frame refresh speed).

But even at 120Hz, a second internally-generated 'frame' (black) can be written in parallel.
So at 120Hz refresh, there are two 'segments' being written in parallel, not 4. There is no tearing. Just one fresh frame being contnuously written at 120Hz with a black frame being written on its heals at 120Hz with an offset of 50% (half-frame).

At a 60Hz content refresh rate (which corresponds to repeating each frame twice at the 120Hz Native Refresh Rate), the second segment (parrallel black frame write) can be used to overwrite newly-written fresh frame data with an offset of 1-1/2 frame at 120Hz (meaning 3/4 frame @ 60Hz), a full frame at 120Hz (meaning 1/2 frame @60Hz), or 1/2 frame at 120Hz (meaning 1/4 frame @ 60Hz), resulting in 25%, 50% or 75% BFI @ 60Hz.

Once the native framerate is doubled from 240HzEffective/120Hz Native to 240Hz Native, the BFI Offset no longer needs to be llimited to 1/2 frame @ 120Hz but can be any number of lines (and I gave the example of a 713 line offset being used to deliver 67% BFI).
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post #15812 of 15845 Old 05-11-2019, 01:37 PM
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I got a store demo A1E to try out for motion and things. Sadly, they burned the Best Buy logo into it so it'll have to go back.

I was trying out its motion settings but not yet as good as my Panasonic plasma (very close!). I could see the BFI kick in, which was an interesting effect.

The A1E is from 2017. And Sony's supposedly have the best processing.

When can I expect OLED to equal plasma in motion processing? Next year, with the 120Hz BFI? (here's hoping for 240Hz BFI)
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post #15813 of 15845 Old 05-11-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by artur9 View Post
I got a store demo A1E to try out for motion and things. Sadly, they burned the Best Buy logo into it so it'll have to go back.

I was trying out its motion settings but not yet as good as my Panasonic plasma (very close!). I could see the BFI kick in, which was an interesting effect.

The A1E is from 2017. And Sony's supposedly have the best processing.

When can I expect OLED to equal plasma in motion processing? Next year, with the 120Hz BFI? (here's hoping for 240Hz BFI)
I think the A9F with BFI turned on is more or less equal to my 2008 Panasonic plasma in motion response.

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post #15814 of 15845 Old 05-12-2019, 04:22 PM
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Samsung delaying first QD-BOLED trial production to end 2020 and jumping straight to 10G for true production start in 2023: https://www.oled-info.com/new-report...oduction-plans

"Samsung will indeed go ahead with its QD-OLED production plans, but at a slower pace than was first estimated. Samsung will only begin trial production towards the end of 2020, with real mass production on a new 10-Gen line only at around 2023."
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post #15815 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Samsung delaying first QD-BOLED trial production to end 2020 and jumping straight to 10G for true production start in 2023: https://www.oled-info.com/new-report...oduction-plans

"Samsung will indeed go ahead with its QD-OLED production plans, but at a slower pace than was first estimated. Samsung will only begin trial production towards the end of 2020, with real mass production on a new 10-Gen line only at around 2023."
So nothing in the market until 2024 probably.

Buy LG OLED in 2020 or if there are good deals later this year and then you can see how the Samsung product looks 4-5 years later.

Though Samsung doesn't support Dolby Vision so that may be a dealbreaker.
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post #15816 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 08:34 AM
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Driving Method of Individually Toggling Driving Voltages

Interesting LG Display patent that's relatively new:

"Disclosed are a display device, an electronic device, and a toggling circuit, which can reduce or prevent a motion blur phenomenon without a significant change in the performance of an interface, a controller, or a source-driving circuit by toggling driving voltages and individually executing driving voltage lines."

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190051246A1/en
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post #15817 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Interesting LG Display patent that's relatively new:

"Disclosed are a display device, an electronic device, and a toggling circuit, which can reduce or prevent a motion blur phenomenon without a significant change in the performance of an interface, a controller, or a source-driving circuit by toggling driving voltages and individually executing driving voltage lines."

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190051246A1/en
Very interesting.
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post #15818 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Interesting LG Display patent that's relatively new:

"Disclosed are a display device, an electronic device, and a toggling circuit, which can reduce or prevent a motion blur phenomenon without a significant change in the performance of an interface, a controller, or a source-driving circuit by toggling driving voltages and individually executing driving voltage lines."

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190051246A1/en
How would this improve motion?

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post #15819 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post
I wish I had filmed a high speed video of the 120Hz+BFI to add to www.blurbusters.com/scanout high speed videos. That would answer SO many questions, indeed. Right now I'm making assumptions until someone points a Samsung Galaxy 960fps at www.testufo.com/scanout test pattern on a LG 120Hz+BFI.
It's a real shame that nobody of those that had the LG with pre-release firmware is available to do serious testing of what happens on those units. If the flashing problem remained with BFI activated or it didn't. It shouldn't be hard to test, as there's a very well thought out test to clearly see if the problem is there or not.
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post #15820 of 15845 Old 05-13-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Micolash View Post
How would this improve motion?
See the animation here that simulates BFI:

https://www.blurbusters.com/blur-bus...mple-and-hold/

And, from the patent:

"As described above, as the image is not displayed or the fake image different from the image is displayed during the predetermined period of at least one frame period, the user recognizes a frame rate higher than the actual frame rate. Accordingly, the motion blur can be reduced or removed."

"As described above, when the individual driving voltage toggling control is performed under the rolling shutter-driving method, the user may recognize the non-emission period (Tb) as separate frames and thus consider the actual two frames (the first frame and the second frame) as a total of four frames (two Te and two Tb). Accordingly, from the aspect of user recognition, it is possible to implement a higher frame rate and lower image persistence. Therefore, motion blur can be reduced or prevented."

Mark Rejhon does a great job explaining things in this post from early 2018:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post55597686
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post #15821 of 15845 Old 05-14-2019, 04:10 PM
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Looks like LGD will be introducing 13.3" 4:3 WOLED panels for laptops/monitors next year: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/le...020,39331.html

"Lenovo today announced the first PC with a foldable screen, a ThinkPad X1-branded device with no final name or price. This full-on laptop is scheduled for release sometime in 2020.

We do know that it has a 13.3-inch 2KOLED screen in a 4:3 ratio made by LG Display that can fold in half."

LGD can produce 96 13.3" WOLEDs per 8.5G glass substrate, or with MMG, they can produce 34 13.3" WOLEDs along with 2 77" or 27 13.3" WOLEDs along with 3 65" WOLEDs per 8.5G panel.

Manufacturing cost of a 13.3" 3:4 WOLED will be ~6.25% the cost of a 55" 16:9 TV panel and with the 55" WOLEDs forecast to be priced at ~$450 in 2020, that corresponds to 14.3" 4:3 WOLED panels being profitably sold next year at prices as low as $28!

And if we take that price to calculate savings on 65" and 77" WOLED manufacturing cost, it translates to 65" WOLED panels costing 72% of what they cost without MMG and 77" WOLED panels costing 65% of what they cost without MMG.

This announcement also is further proof that LGD has succeeded to reduce their minimum WOLED pixels size:

The 65" 8K pixel LGD demonstrated at CES has a pixel size of 187.4um X 187.4um (0.035mm^2).

A 13.3" 2K (1080 lines) pixel is the slightest of tads larger at 187.7um X 187.7um (0.035mm^2).

It looks as though investing in MMG first and pushing 10.5G off another year was a smart move for LGD because of the much greater manufacturing flexibility it affords them. And is looks like 2020 is goung to be another breakout year for WOLED!
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post #15822 of 15845 Old 05-14-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
See the animation here that simulates BFI:

https://www.blurbusters.com/blur-bus...mple-and-hold/

And, from the patent:

"As described above, as the image is not displayed or the fake image different from the image is displayed during the predetermined period of at least one frame period, the user recognizes a frame rate higher than the actual frame rate. Accordingly, the motion blur can be reduced or removed."

"As described above, when the individual driving voltage toggling control is performed under the rolling shutter-driving method, the user may recognize the non-emission period (Tb) as separate frames and thus consider the actual two frames (the first frame and the second frame) as a total of four frames (two Te and two Tb). Accordingly, from the aspect of user recognition, it is possible to implement a higher frame rate and lower image persistence. Therefore, motion blur can be reduced or prevented."

Mark Rejhon does a great job explaining things in this post from early 2018:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post55597686
So this is like BFI but it is not tied to the panel's refresh rate?

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post #15823 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
See the animation here that simulates BFI:

https://www.blurbusters.com/blur-bus...mple-and-hold/

And, from the patent:

"As described above, as the image is not displayed or the fake image different from the image is displayed during the predetermined period of at least one frame period, the user recognizes a frame rate higher than the actual frame rate. Accordingly, the motion blur can be reduced or removed."

"As described above, when the individual driving voltage toggling control is performed under the rolling shutter-driving method, the user may recognize the non-emission period (Tb) as separate frames and thus consider the actual two frames (the first frame and the second frame) as a total of four frames (two Te and two Tb). Accordingly, from the aspect of user recognition, it is possible to implement a higher frame rate and lower image persistence. Therefore, motion blur can be reduced or prevented."

Mark Rejhon does a great job explaining things in this post from early 2018:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post55597686
Here's a diagram and video (1:14 mark) by Univ. of Cambridge researchers that also does a nice job of making motion concepts clearer:

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post #15824 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 11:53 AM
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Looks as though Samsung is pulling out all the stops in a campaign to recruit LGD Engineers: https://www.zdnet.com/article/fear-a...arket-squeeze/

There is so much in this 'article' that is incorrect I have to just laugh, but this little nugget has to take the cake:

"One reason LG's OLED burn-in is more noticeable is because of the use of different light sources for blue, red, and green. Blue pixels dies quickly as it becomes noticeable from the contras. Samsung's QD-OLED will only use blue pixels as light emitters, so there is no anomaly; they all die or live together, at least theoretically."

Enjoy - it's a good read with some good background on management changes at the two Chaebols as well as how major devisions are arrived at within the groups...

The article is entitled 'Fear and Trembling - LG Display Faces the Axe for OLED TV Burn-In and Market Squeeze' but it could have been called 'The Mantra Samsung Display Management Recites to Itself Every Night So They Can Get Some Sleep'
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post #15825 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 12:01 PM
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2KOLED screen in a 4:3 ratio

13.3" 2K (1080 lines)
Considering the mention of both 2K and 4:3 but yet no mention of 1080p and such, I would say it's much more likely that the display is 2048x1536 aka "QXGA"

For reference, this is the same resolution that modern iPads use.
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post #15826 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 12:15 PM
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Considering the mention of both 2K and 4:3 but yet no mention of 1080p and such, I would say it's much more likely that the display is 2048x1536 aka "QXGA"

For reference, this is the same resolution that modern iPads use.
If you are correct, that would mean that LGD has succeeded to further reduce their minimum WOLED pixel size:

1535 x 2048 pixels in a 13.3" WOLED panel would correspond to pixels of 0.132mm X 0.132mm, 30% smaller on each axis than the 0.187mm X 0.187mm pixel LGD demonstrated in their 65" 8K WOLED panel (and 50% of the area).
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post #15827 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
If you are correct, that would mean that LGD has succeeded to further reduce their minimum WOLED pixel size:

1535 x 2048 pixels in a 13.3" WOLED panel would correspond to pixels of 0.132mm X 0.132mm, 30% smaller on each axis than the 187.4mm X 187.4mm pixel LGD demonstrated in their 65" 8K WOLED panel (and 50% of the area).
Possibly WQXGA unless this site just got the pixel dimensions wrong:

https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/l...omi-and-lenovo
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post #15828 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Possibly WQXGA unless this site just got the pixel dimensions wrong:

https://www.cdrinfo.com/d7/content/l...omi-and-lenovo
Well, WQXGA (2560 x 1600) would mean even smaller pixels (105.6um x 126.7um), 38% the area of the 65" 8K pixels LGD demonstrated at CES.

This brings up the question as to whether these 13.3" laptop/monitor screens are based on WOLED or the RGB-OLED technology LG uses for cell phones? I can't find any clear indication anywhere...
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post #15829 of 15845 Old 05-15-2019, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NintendoManiac64 View Post
Considering the mention of both 2K and 4:3 but yet no mention of 1080p and such, I would say it's much more likely that the display is 2048x1536 aka "QXGA"

For reference, this is the same resolution that modern iPads use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stl8k
Possible WQXGA unless this site just got the pixel dimensions wrong:
This popular science article seems pretty pretty certain about screen size: https://www.popsci.com/lenovo-first-...-screen-laptop

"The new Lenovo laptop, which is part of its ThinkPad X1 family, has a 13.3-inch OLED display that stretches across the entire face of the device, save for some bezel that surrounds the screen. There’s no keyboard. Instead you can rely on a software keyboard that appears in the bottom half of the screen’s user interface, or connect a wireless keyboard to use the Lenovo like a typical flat display. It has a 1920 x 1440 pixel resolution and an Intel processor inside."

A 13.3" display with 1920 x 1440 pixels corresponds to a pixel size of 140.1um x 140.1um, 25% smaller on each axis than the 187.4um x 187.4um pixel LGD demonstrated on their 65" 8K WOLED prototype at CES this January (and 56% of the overall pixel area of the 8K 65" pixel).

No information on what type of OLED it is, though the only reference they make is to the R-Series (which we know is a WOLED):

"...it’s using a screen made by LG, a company which has been showing off its own flexible OLED TV that rolls up into a tube when you’re not watching it."
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There's a new in-depth article about LG and Samsung TV strategies. Due to my low post count I can't post links yet... To find the original article, simple search for "Fear and Trembling: LG Display faces the axe for OLED burn-in and market squeeze".

Interesting things from this article:

In 2018, LG Display (the company that makes the television panels; they don't make the TV's themselves) first started to make a profit from their OLED panels. This was a result of increasing the square footage of panels that they sold by 65% compared to 2017. However, the company as a whole saw its profits drop by 96% (!) because of plummeting LCD prices.

LG have put all of their eggs in one basket for premium TV's: all OLED, all the time. They don't have a Plan B. Samsung of course have decided not to make OLED TV's, and instead they use OLED only for small screens such as for phones. Instead, Samsung have 3 directions for premium TV's:

Samsung #1 : their current premium TV's use QLED technology. They sell well and are doing even better than Samsung had expected.

Samsung #2 : they're developing QD-OLED technology, which marries OLED and Quantum Dots. QD-OLED uses a different technology for the subpixels than LG uses, which will hopefully reduce the chance of burn-in. This technology isn't perfected yet, and Samsung haven't committed to a release date (or even if it will be released at all). Nevertheless, the market expects QD-OLED TV's to become commercial in 2021.

Samsung #3 : they're working on MicroLED technology, in which each pixel is a tiny LED. This makes it possible to turn off individual pixels, which provides perfect blacks just like OLED. The challenge is to miniaturize LED's enough so that the TV's are small enough for the mass market. Samsung aren't the only ones working on MicroLED technology, but so far no one has perfected the technology. It's unknown when it will become commercial.

The author of the article, who is critical of LG, stresses that Samsung are trying several directions while LG only has OLED. But he forgot to mention that LG have recently bought a technology that could allow for a new manufacturing process for OLED panels, which looks similar to how inkjet printers work (search for "Major LG Purchase Points To Cheaper, Better OLED TVs"). That would allow creating OLED panels more cheaply and with higher quality than the current process. To be fair, this is currently only basic technology, and it's unknown when (if ever) it will be usable for commercial purposes.

The author says that burn-in is a big problem for LG, but doesn't back this up with facts. Despite the risk of burn-in, LG Display have sold their entire OLED panel inventory (they're limited in their manufacturing capacity). Perhaps the burn-in risk depresses their prices, but given the premium price of OLED's (and the existence of the competing QLED technology) it's unlikely that LG could raise their prices even if burn-in didn't exist.

LG are currently building a second OLED factory in China, which should start working this year. This factory will allow them to make more OLED panels, and at a lower cost because the new factory creates larger surfaces than the current factory. Interestingly, the main reason to build this factory in China may not be cost: it's because LG Display are interested in selling OLED panels to Chinese TV manufacturers, and the Chinese want all of their components to be supplied from within China, where they have a great supply chain. Will we see cheap OLED's from Chinese companies in the near future?

The author, Cho Mu-Hyun, is very interested in some things that are of little interest to anyone who doesn't work in this field, such as exactly who took over the top LG job. He's also obsessed with honor, and mentioned that LG was "humiliated" because they're #2 in some market instead of #1 . Hey, are you a writer or a psychologist? Despite this, the article is interesting and illuminating even to those of us who are only interested in premium TV's as consumers and not as analysts.
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post #15831 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
This popular science article seems pretty pretty certain about screen size: https://www.popsci.com/lenovo-first-...-screen-laptop

"The new Lenovo laptop, which is part of its ThinkPad X1 family, has a 13.3-inch OLED display that stretches across the entire face of the device, save for some bezel that surrounds the screen. There’s no keyboard. Instead you can rely on a software keyboard that appears in the bottom half of the screen’s user interface, or connect a wireless keyboard to use the Lenovo like a typical flat display. It has a 1920 x 1440 pixel resolution and an Intel processor inside."

A 13.3" display with 1920 x 1440 pixels corresponds to a pixel size of 140.1um x 140.1um, 25% smaller on each axis than the 187.4um x 187.4um pixel LGD demonstrated on their 65" 8K WOLED prototype at CES this January (and 56% of the overall pixel area of the 8K 65" pixel).

No information on what type of OLED it is, though the only reference they make is to the R-Series (which we know is a WOLED):

"...it’s using a screen made by LG, a company which has been showing off its own flexible OLED TV that rolls up into a tube when you’re not watching it."
Appreciate the analysis, fafrd, but I can't imagine such a low PPI in late 2019. A macro photo of the display would answer a number of Qs until the time LGD or Lenovo provide specs.
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post #15832 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 11:35 AM
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There's a new in-depth article about LG and Samsung TV strategies. Due to my low post count I can't post links yet... To find the original article, simple search for "Fear and Trembling: LG Display faces the axe for OLED burn-in and market squeeze".
Not to be a party-pooper, but the article you're referring to was linked in this very thread just 6 posts above your own (right before my own "QXGA" post):

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Looks as though Samsung is pulling out all the stops in a campaign to recruit LGD Engineers: https://www.zdnet.com/article/fear-a...arket-squeeze/

There is so much in this 'article' that is incorrect I have to just laugh
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post #15833 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 12:07 PM
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Sort interruption about the ongoing discussion of motion resolution. Has anyone spotted the 2019 77 inch panels in the wild yet? I am wondering if these panels have got an upgrade this year or are we still sticking to the 2017 technology as we did last year?
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post #15834 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 02:31 PM
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There's a new in-depth article about LG and Samsung TV strategies. Due to my low post count I can't post links yet... To find the original article, simple search for "Fear and Trembling: LG Display faces the axe for OLED burn-in and market squeeze".

Interesting things from this article:

In 2018, LG Display (the company that makes the television panels; they don't make the TV's themselves) first started to make a profit from their OLED panels. This was a result of increasing the square footage of panels that they sold by 65% compared to 2017. However, the company as a whole saw its profits drop by 96% (!) because of plummeting LCD prices.

LG have put all of their eggs in one basket for premium TV's: all OLED, all the time. They don't have a Plan B. Samsung of course have decided not to make OLED TV's, and instead they use OLED only for small screens such as for phones. Instead, Samsung have 3 directions for premium TV's:

Samsung #1 : their current premium TV's use QLED technology. They sell well and are doing even better than Samsung had expected.

Samsung #2 : they're developing QD-OLED technology, which marries OLED and Quantum Dots. QD-OLED uses a different technology for the subpixels than LG uses, which will hopefully reduce the chance of burn-in. This technology isn't perfected yet, and Samsung haven't committed to a release date (or even if it will be released at all). Nevertheless, the market expects QD-OLED TV's to become commercial in 2021.

Samsung #3 : they're working on MicroLED technology, in which each pixel is a tiny LED. This makes it possible to turn off individual pixels, which provides perfect blacks just like OLED. The challenge is to miniaturize LED's enough so that the TV's are small enough for the mass market. Samsung aren't the only ones working on MicroLED technology, but so far no one has perfected the technology. It's unknown when it will become commercial.

The author of the article, who is critical of LG, stresses that Samsung are trying several directions while LG only has OLED. But he forgot to mention that LG have recently bought a technology that could allow for a new manufacturing process for OLED panels, which looks similar to how inkjet printers work (search for "Major LG Purchase Points To Cheaper, Better OLED TVs"). That would allow creating OLED panels more cheaply and with higher quality than the current process. To be fair, this is currently only basic technology, and it's unknown when (if ever) it will be usable for commercial purposes.

The author says that burn-in is a big problem for LG, but doesn't back this up with facts. Despite the risk of burn-in, LG Display have sold their entire OLED panel inventory (they're limited in their manufacturing capacity). Perhaps the burn-in risk depresses their prices, but given the premium price of OLED's (and the existence of the competing QLED technology) it's unlikely that LG could raise their prices even if burn-in didn't exist.

LG are currently building a second OLED factory in China, which should start working this year. This factory will allow them to make more OLED panels, and at a lower cost because the new factory creates larger surfaces than the current factory. Interestingly, the main reason to build this factory in China may not be cost: it's because LG Display are interested in selling OLED panels to Chinese TV manufacturers, and the Chinese want all of their components to be supplied from within China, where they have a great supply chain. Will we see cheap OLED's from Chinese companies in the near future?

The author, Cho Mu-Hyun, is very interested in some things that are of little interest to anyone who doesn't work in this field, such as exactly who took over the top LG job. He's also obsessed with honor, and mentioned that LG was "humiliated" because they're #2 in some market instead of #1 . Hey, are you a writer or a psychologist? Despite this, the article is interesting and illuminating even to those of us who are only interested in premium TV's as consumers and not as analysts.
I guess you missed my (much shorter) recap a few posts back: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-ol...l#post58052342

The most important points are that LGD sxselling all of thrir ever-increasibg WOLED panel production at profitabl prices. As long as they continue doing that, it's Samsung Display that shoukd br Trembling with Fear.

The article amounts to an admission that Samsung Group has elected to squeeze profitability from the LCD tail by selling TVs based on ever-cheaper Chinese LCD panels. Samsung Display was expecting the Group to give them the green light (and capital) to bring QD--BOLED into pilot production late last month but instead it's been pushed out by at least another year (and no true QD-BOLED production before 2023).. It's Samsung Display trying to save face - the Samsung Group has basically told them 'focus on phone screens and forget about the furure of producing flat-panels for TV' .

Obviously the decision to foxus on short-term profitability over investing in new technology and R&D is goid for profitability, and if the train has not left the station by the time you decide to start investing in catching up, you will look like a genius in hindsight.

Unfortunately, I believe it's exceedibgly unliely the future will unfold in that way. The other recent 'fact' in this overall debate/ecosystem is the announcement that Vizio will be introducing a WOLED TV in 2020. So LGD's 'ecosystem' is now the entire TV industry with the lone exception of Samsung (and TCL who is working on their own in-house QD/OLED hybrid). Don't get me wrong - Samsung will be profitably selling TVs for a long, long time and will probaly contnue to sell LCD panels for TVs for nearly as long (they have the #1 brand as a captive customer, after all).

But first, thrir outside sales of LCD panels for TVs will dry up (Chba will be mch cheaper) and second, Samsung Visual Display (or whichever arm manufactures and sells TVs) will get tired of sacrificibg profitability to prop up Samsung Display at higher internal pricing than they can get from China. Eventually all of Samsung's LCD-for-TV fabs will be converted to OLED-for-phone production or shut down.

I hate to say it, but this was the rational decision I was hoping that Samsung would 'go for it' as far as accelerating QD-BOLED poduction and trying to catch up with WOLED. But as I've posted earlier in this thread, the investments seemed huge and the chances of success seemed small (especially with the new technical ssues that have surfaced), so Samsung's decision is very understandable (but sad for the TV industry).

I can almost picture the conversation between Samsung Display and Samsung Group footing the bill:

Sansung Group: "How do you expect us to sell a product that is so dim and leaks blue light so it can't be properly calibrated?"

Samsung Display: "No problem, we're going to add a 3rd blue OLED layer and a conventional blue-blocking color filter!"

SG: 'But won't that add cost and make it more expensive to manufacture than LGD's WOLED technology?"

SD: "Well, yes, but that is only a temporary problem With long-lifetime soluble blue emitters and high-efficiency QDCC around the corner, we'll be able to manufacture QD-BOLED for less cost than WOLED!"

SG: "That sounds more interesting. Let's forget about investibg in production until you are ready to begin pilot oridction with those nee materials - when will that be?"

SD: "But, but, but, we don't have those materials yet and the earliest we'll have them looks like late next year If we can't start pilot production immediately, we may be too late to catch up with LGD and WOLED!"

SG: "We don't care. We're not investing our Group's future in a wild-goise chase. Come back to us when you have an actual competetive solution in hand that you are ready to bring into production and we will reconsider. In the meantime, research-only as far as QD-BOLED."
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post #15835 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 02:38 PM
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Sort interruption about the ongoing discussion of motion resolution. Has anyone spotted the 2019 77 inch panels in the wild yet? I am wondering if these panels have got an upgrade this year or are we still sticking to the 2017 technology as we did last year?
Wrong place for this question (more aporopriate in the owner's thread). But the short answer is that LG had everything teed-up for 120Hz BFI (3.5ms MPRT) on the 2019 WOLEDs (including 77" models) but decided to yank the feature at the 11th hour.

So 2019 motion performamce is essentially identical to 2018s (60Hz BFI).

In theory, 120Hz BFI could be 'fixed' via a FW update, but I've speculated that 120Hz BFI is incompatible with the 'fix' LGD developed for the flashing/overshoot issue (which appars to employ temporal dithering).
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post #15836 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 02:44 PM
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Appreciate the analysis, fafrd, but I can't imagine such a low PPI in late 2019.
1440px wide on a 13" laptop screen is more pixels than the ever-present 1366px-wide laptop screens (which even exist on 15" models).

Additionally, 1440px like 1366px is a small enough horizontal resolution that it means you actually wouldn't need to use any DPI scaling, and therefore you're likely to actually have more horizontal screen real-estate than what you'd get with 1920px @ 150% DPI and 2560px @ 200% DPI (I've never actually used a 13" laptop with either resolution, so I'm just guessing that those would be the default DPI settings).

Now obviously the user can change the DPI setting themselves if they want more horizontal screen real-estate, but it's always a better idea to use percentages that are as close as possible to an exact multiple (so if not 2.0x or 3.0x, then 2.5x and 1.5x is the next best choice). Therefore, you'd then need a 2160px @ 150% or 2880px @ 200% in order to achieve the same screen real-estate as 1440px @ 100%.

And considering the fact that they're basically making it a laptop that is nothing but screen, I think it's safe to say that maximizing the screen real-estate is a major point to this product.
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post #15837 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 02:58 PM
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1440px wide on a 13" laptop screen is more pixels than the ever-present 1366px-wide laptop screens (which even exist on 15" models).

Additionally, 1440px like 1366px is a small enough horizontal resolution that it means you actually wouldn't need to use any DPI scaling, and therefore you're likely to actually have more horizontal screen real-estate than what you'd get with 1920px @ 150% DPI and 2560px @ 200% DPI (I've never actually used a 13" laptop with either resolution, so I'm just guessing that those would be the default DPI settings).

Now obviously the user can change the DPI setting themselves if they want more horizontal screen real-estate, but it's always a better idea to use percentages that are as close as possible to an exact multiple (so if not 2.0x or 3.0x, then 2.5x and 1.5x is the next best choice). Therefore, you'd then need a 2160px @ 150% or 2880px @ 200% in order to achieve the same screen real-estate as 1440px @ 100%.

And considering the fact that they're basically making it a laptop that is nothing but screen, I think it's safe to say that maximizing the screen real-estate is a major point to this product.
I'm just surprised that we don't have any indication as to whether this 13.3" Laptop screen is a WOLED or not. I haven't tracked LGDs RGB-OLED phone screens, but I believe they've been struggling. Is there any chance that technology solid enough that they could be trying a 13.3" RGB-OLED? What is the largest RGB-OLED panel LGD has produced?
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post #15838 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 02:59 PM
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Wrong place for this question (more aporopriate in the owner's thread). But the short answer is that LG had everything teed-up for 120Hz BFI (3.5ms MPRT) on the 2019 WOLEDs (including 77" models) but decided to yank the feature at the 11th hour.

So 2019 motion performamce is essentially identical to 2018s (60Hz BFI).

In theory, 120Hz BFI could be 'fixed' via a FW update, but I've speculated that 120Hz BFI is incompatible with the 'fix' LGD developed for the flashing/overshoot issue (which appars to employ temporal dithering).
My question wasn't strictly related to LG's 77 inch model models but include the new G series of Sony as well. Besides the different backplane I am wondering if the current 77 inch panels have a similar subpixel pattern and light output than the smaller sizes. Last years models had the 2017er panels with less fill factor and noticeable less light output than its 2018 little siblings.

So I want to discuss the current advances of the OLED technology regarding the 77 inch panels LGD can offer.
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post #15839 of 15845 Old 05-16-2019, 10:40 PM
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I guess you missed my (much shorter) recap a few posts back
Sorry, I was very excited about this article and wanted to share what I thought was interesting.

There are a couple of things in that article that seem contradictory, perhaps you could help me understand them?

The first thing is about the pixel structure in WOLED. As you've mentioned, the article says: "One reason LG's OLED burn-in is more noticeable is because of the use of different light sources for blue, red, and green." But I thought LG's WOLED screens use the same organic materials for all of the subpixels, and the difference in color is due to color filters? At least, that's what a Google search for WOLED shows (search for "Reports say LGD aims to change its WOLED TV structure from Y/B to R/G/B").

The second thing: the article says "Blue pixels dies quickly..." But in other threads in this forum it was said that the red subpixels usually suffer burn-in first. This can also be seen in the Rtings burn-in test, where the red CNN logo has the most burn-in.
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post #15840 of 15845 Old 05-17-2019, 05:23 AM
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There are a couple of things in that article that seem contradictory, perhaps you could help me understand them?
You picked the wrong article to understand the OLED tech details. That article is filled with PR talk and half-truths or straight lies.

If you want to understand more about OLED, go back a few pages on this thread - or even read the WHOLE thread and you will KNOW more than enough to make a judgment about OLED vs "whatever".
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