OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread - Page 531 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15901 of 16097 Old 07-11-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Phantom Skim View Post
Hi, does anybody knows is Bfi gives some benefit to the smoothens (motion) when watching 24fps movies with fast scenes, i am curious to know would it contribute to 24fps movie with fast scenes or not, i am sensitive to motion so i can't decide between C8 and C9. I dont watch to many sport but if Bfi contributes when watching sport than by some logic it would need to do the same with movies at 24fps or am i mistaken?
For 24fps movies best might be to focus on OLED motion comments on how turned off motion enhancement looks/ enhancers set to low looks. 2018/2019 Sony OLED seems to be the best choice for that. Advise is not to use BFI or agressive Motion Interpolation for 24fps movies, it ruins the look.
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post #15902 of 16097 Old 07-11-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by stl8k View Post
Some additional background here:

http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/presse/pm-en-2019-09
10,000 cd/m2 is interesting but it's strange that they only quote LT50:

"In continuous operation, the researchers were able to measure a so-called LT50 lifetime of almost 2000 hours at a brightness equivalent to ten times that of modern displays. Within this time, the initial luminosity has dropped to 50% of its value."

2000 hours to half-brightness is not going to cut it and the more common LT97 or LT95 numbers are probably embarassing.

Even at 'only' 1000cd/m2, an LT97 of 1000 hours would imdicate this technology is ready for prime-time, so I suspect the actual [email protected]/m2 must be at least an order of magnutude below that (and probably more).

But if this technology is viable in time to impact Samsung's (hoped-for) QD-BOLED initiative, it could be a game-changer...
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post #15903 of 16097 Old 07-11-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by thebishman View Post
Will this new plant have any impact of quantity/pricing of the 77” panel?

TIA,

Bish
Almost certainly.

LGD is producing only 1% of their output at 77" (~40,000 77" WOLED panels in 2019.

The new 8.5G plant in Guangxhou plant will ~double production capacity from 70,000 8.5G sheets per month to 130,000 once stage 1 is fully-ramped.

Even assuming LGD continues to be 'strategc' about the 75/77" Premium TV market (meaning they are not really taking it seriously yet) and stick to 1% levels for 77" production, that should mean close to twice as many 77" WOLEDs produced once the new 8.5G plant in Guangzhou is up and running.

And in our free-market economy, higher production levels = lower prices.

But this increased volume, incrementally lower pricing of 77" WOLEDs from increased 8.5G capacity nothing compared to what the ramp-up of the 10.5G plant will mean.

While LGD can use single 8.5G sheet to msnufacture 2 77" WOLED panels, they can use a single 10.5G sheet, costing 50% more, to manufacture 6 75" WOLED panels (the same as the number of 55" WOLED manufactured on an 8.5G sheet).

So in essence, while a 77" WOLED at 8.5G costs 3X the cost of a 55" WOLED panel, at 10.5G, a 75" WOLED costs 1.5x the cost of a 55" WOLED (~half as much).

Oh, and the 10.5G plant can pretty much only be used to manufacture 65" and 75" WOLEDs (55" much more efficient on 8.5G), so by the time the 10.5G plant is ramping, it's a near-certainly that LGD will be taking the 75/77" Premium TV market much more seriously and will have increased 75/77" WOLED production share more than 10-fold from today's 1% to over 10% (at the very least).

That means moving from ~40,000 77" WOLED panels produced in 2019 to over 1 million in 2021 or 2022 when LG is planning to be at a production level of over 10M WOLED panels annually.

By then, entry-level 75" WOLEDs are almost certian to be priced under $3000 (where Samsung's 75Q80 is priced today).
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post #15904 of 16097 Old 07-12-2019, 06:01 AM
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5000-7500 nit RGB OLED Microdisplay:

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post #15905 of 16097 Old 07-23-2019, 05:29 AM
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LG pours additional $2.5b into P10 line for "next-gen supersized" OLED TVs

Supersized OLED displays
With the release of its earnings report for Q2 2019, LG Display announced a large additional investment into its 10.5G OLED line that will enable "next-generation display technology such as supersized, rollable and transparent displays".

Quote:
- "LG Display announced today an additional investment of KRW 3 trillion into its Gen 10.5 OLED line in its P10 fab in Paju, Korea. The company plans to solidify its leadership in the OLED business through competitive OLED productivity and continues to create new value with next-generation display technology such as supersized, rollable and transparent displays," the company announced.
With the additional investment, production capacity at the 10.5 generation OLED line at the P10 plant in Paju, Korea, will increase from 30,000 sheets per month in the first half of 2022 to 45,000 sheets per month in the first half of 2023. The P10 line will mainly produce OLED panels sized 65 inches and larger.

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- "The company will mainly produce 65-inch and above supersized OLED panels from the Gen 10.5 production line. It will start producing 30,000 sheets per month from the first half of 2022. An additional 15,000 sheets per month will be produced from the first half of 2023."
Read more at https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1563870830
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post #15906 of 16097 Old 07-26-2019, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by fafrd View Post
Almost certainly.

LGD is producing only 1% of their output at 77" (~40,000 77" WOLED panels in 2019.

The new 8.5G plant in Guangxhou plant will ~double production capacity from 70,000 8.5G sheets per month to 130,000 once stage 1 is fully-ramped.

Even assuming LGD continues to be 'strategc' about the 75/77" Premium TV market (meaning they are not really taking it seriously yet) and stick to 1% levels for 77" production, that should mean close to twice as many 77" WOLEDs produced once the new 8.5G plant in Guangzhou is up and running.

And in our free-market economy, higher production levels = lower prices.

But this increased volume, incrementally lower pricing of 77" WOLEDs from increased 8.5G capacity nothing compared to what the ramp-up of the 10.5G plant will mean.

While LGD can use single 8.5G sheet to msnufacture 2 77" WOLED panels, they can use a single 10.5G sheet, costing 50% more, to manufacture 6 75" WOLED panels (the same as the number of 55" WOLED manufactured on an 8.5G sheet).

So in essence, while a 77" WOLED at 8.5G costs 3X the cost of a 55" WOLED panel, at 10.5G, a 75" WOLED costs 1.5x the cost of a 55" WOLED (~half as much).

Oh, and the 10.5G plant can pretty much only be used to manufacture 65" and 75" WOLEDs (55" much more efficient on 8.5G), so by the time the 10.5G plant is ramping, it's a near-certainly that LGD will be taking the 75/77" Premium TV market much more seriously and will have increased 75/77" WOLED production share more than 10-fold from today's 1% to over 10% (at the very least).

That means moving from ~40,000 77" WOLED panels produced in 2019 to over 1 million in 2021 or 2022 when LG is planning to be at a production level of over 10M WOLED panels annually.

By then, entry-level 75" WOLEDs are almost certian to be priced under $3000 (where Samsung's 75Q80 is priced today).
So if this is accurate a 77” WOLED will be sub $3,000 by 2021
Then a 65” WOLED could be $2,000
And a 55” WOLED could be $1,000 wow

My C9 better last til 2021 then and a Buy a C12
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post #15907 of 16097 Old 07-27-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Ice Cold View Post
So if this is accurate a 77” WOLED will be sub $3,000 by 2021
Then a 65” WOLED could be $2,000
And a 55” WOLED could be $1,000 wow

My C9 better last til 2021 then and a Buy a C12
I was hoping to get news on big OLEDs.
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post #15908 of 16097 Old 07-31-2019, 02:03 AM
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Will the trade war between Japan and South Korea impact OLED panel shipments to Sony?
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post #15909 of 16097 Old 08-01-2019, 09:20 AM
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Will the trade war between Japan and South Korea impact OLED panel shipments to Sony?
No, considering this is an one-sided sanction from Japan. If LGD has trouble procuring components from Japanese contractors, then it will impact everyone, not just Sony.

EDIT : Well...things have escalated quickly. South Korea has now put Japan in category 3 for preferred trade partnership. There used to be only 2, but a special one was created just for Japan. South Korea will now put export restriction on DRAM, OLED, and petro-chemical etc. A rumor says Sony has purchased considerable amounts of OLED panels from LGD prior to sanction. Things could get ugly for Sony and Panasonic OLED business.
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post #15910 of 16097 Old 08-04-2019, 10:07 AM
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2 general questions...

1) why are movies and UHD Blu-ray's being mastered at peak HDR light levels of 4000 and 10,000 nits if the vast majority of theaters and consumer displays can only reach a maximum of 2000 nits?...I don't see any consumer display hitting anywhere close to 10,000 nits anytime in the next decade...why not master the movie at 2000-3000 nit max?

2) will there ever be a consumer display that has both zero blacks of OLED and max peak brightness of LCD...meaning 1 display that has both?...can this not be made with current technology or is just because manufacturers don't want to give us the 'perfect' display because that will prevent people from upgrading as much?
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post #15911 of 16097 Old 08-05-2019, 04:10 AM
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2 general questions...
1) Because once you have the master with a high light level you can display that image on any screen, regardless of its peak luminance - the more luminance levels you store for the master, the better will look when it will be displayed. So its better for present and future displays. Mastering a movie is expensive and you better do it well now and be sure that the future displays will have better/more info to show.

2) Probably, yes, but it will take time, regardless of what tech it will use (OLED, nano-LED, etc). The R&D for such high-contrast and high-brightness displays is very expensive and that's why it takes so much time to reach that "perfect" displays - and by the way, the "perfect" display will never exist, it will always have some feature that will prevent "that" display to be perfect... Manufacturers are very happy to sell you a "perfect" display as long as there are enough people that are willing to buy it so it's cost can be justified. So, after the "perfect" display will be made there will always be someone that will build a better version of that "perfect" display so it will be a neverending story in our search for the perfection...
No need for conspiracy theory, human desires and tech limits will always drive us for better, further, faster, etc...
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post #15912 of 16097 Old 08-05-2019, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
2 general questions...

1) why are movies and UHD Blu-ray's being mastered at peak HDR light levels of 4000 and 10,000 nits if the vast majority of theaters and consumer displays can only reach a maximum of 2000 nits?...I don't see any consumer display hitting anywhere close to 10,000 nits anytime in the next decade...why not master the movie at 2000-3000 nit max?

2) will there ever be a consumer display that has both zero blacks of OLED and max peak brightness of LCD...meaning 1 display that has both?...can this not be made with current technology or is just because manufacturers don't want to give us the 'perfect' display because that will prevent people from upgrading as much?
The only way to get the blacks of OLED is with an emissive display. Based on current OLED tech, any display reaching 10k nits peak in a small window would not meet energy requirements. Plus, the lifetime of the material and enhanced degradation from heat of producing those levels, the TV probably wouldn't last more than a year, if that long. OLED will be getting brighter as improvements are made.

For the brightness levels you want, microLED or self emissive quantum for displays will be the most likely solutions. Neither are ready for either that level of brightness or cost. In a decade or two, we may reach emissive displays capable of 10k nits peak specular highlights.
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post #15913 of 16097 Old 08-05-2019, 08:26 AM
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The only way to get the blacks of OLED is with an emissive display. Based on current OLED tech, any display reaching 10k nits peak in a small window would not meet energy requirements. Plus, the lifetime of the material and enhanced degradation from heat of producing those levels, the TV probably wouldn't last more than a year, if that long. OLED will be getting brighter as improvements are made.

For the brightness levels you want, microLED or self emissive quantum for displays will be the most likely solutions. Neither are ready for either that level of brightness or cost. In a decade or two, we may reach emissive displays capable of 10k nits peak specular highlights.
Not sure if anyone has seen this paper, but it is interesting in regard to the future of mini/micro LED:

"This paper reviews developments in mini-LEDs and micro-LEDs, while mainly focusing on the colorization method of the micro-LED displays. In general, micro-LEDs have the potential to improve the properties of miniature display systems such as LCDs and OLEDs displays, but the imperative mass production technology for micro-LEDs has still not yet been fully developed.A Mini-LED backlight significantly improves the performance of present LED backlight and the cost of the mini-LED is relatively easy to control. Due to the above advantages, the mini-LED runs ahead on the road towards commercialization, compared with micro-LEDs. For the latter, micro-LED,there are two major challenges before insertion in the market, the mass transfer printing, and the full-color solution, which, as introduced in this article, which have been under extensive research. It is reasonable to expect breakthroughs in these areas within a few years, as well as a bright future for micro-LED displays"

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://res.mdpi.com/applsci/applsci-08-01557/article_deploy/applsci-08-01557.pdf?filename=&attachment=1
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post #15914 of 16097 Old 08-05-2019, 12:00 PM
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fixed the link:

https://res.mdpi.com/applsci/applsci...i-08-01557.pdf
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post #15915 of 16097 Old 08-05-2019, 12:05 PM
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Lifespeed, thank you! j
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post #15916 of 16097 Old 08-06-2019, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by KOF View Post
No, considering this is an one-sided sanction from Japan. If LGD has trouble procuring components from Japanese contractors, then it will impact everyone, not just Sony.

EDIT : Well...things have escalated quickly. South Korea has now put Japan in category 3 for preferred trade partnership. There used to be only 2, but a special one was created just for Japan. South Korea will now put export restriction on DRAM, OLED, and petro-chemical etc. A rumor says Sony has purchased considerable amounts of OLED panels from LGD prior to sanction. Things could get ugly for Sony and Panasonic OLED business.
I see

So short-term is good.......but medium-term and long-term poses problems.

Question:
What if there is a workaround?

Instead of shipping to Japan, maybe they can ship to the offshore assembly plants instead (e.g. Malaysia, Mexico, etc.)?
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post #15917 of 16097 Old 08-07-2019, 01:39 AM
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Thick OLEDs can have high light-emitting efficiencies too

Researchers have made high-performance thick organic light-emitting diodes (OLEDs) by combining organic thin films and organic-inorganic perovskite transport layers. The materials, which have the same light-emitting efficiencies as reference thin OLEDs, could be used to make affordable displays and screens that emit the same colour from all viewing angles.

Continue reading at https://physicsworld.com/a/thick-ole...iciencies-too/
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post #15918 of 16097 Old 08-08-2019, 07:47 PM
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Thick OLEDs can have high light-emitting efficiencies too

Researchers have made high-performance thick organic light-emitting diodes (OLEDs) by combining organic thin films and organic-inorganic perovskite transport layers. The materials, which have the same light-emitting efficiencies as reference thin OLEDs, could be used to make affordable displays and screens that emit the same colour from all viewing angles.

Continue reading at https://physicsworld.com/a/thick-ole...iciencies-too/
Very interesting. I wonder what the drawbacks would be though? The article mentions nothing and I'm sure there's a catch.
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post #15919 of 16097 Old 08-08-2019, 10:21 PM
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Very interesting. I wonder what the drawbacks would be though? The article mentions nothing and I'm sure there's a catch.

Just possibilities...Power? Heat? Ageing/longevity? Too "thick" to compete in the thin wars? Checked the linked nature article too, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1435-5. Looks like it could be very early research right now, so early that feasibility hasn't even been explore yet. Fun to check out all the same!



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post #15920 of 16097 Old 08-09-2019, 08:11 AM
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post #15921 of 16097 Old 08-09-2019, 08:34 AM
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Very interesting indeed. This will probably open the doors for much more differentiation among the different brands. Nice find.
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post #15922 of 16097 Old 08-11-2019, 06:43 AM
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One of the biggest takeaways from the call for me was the recognition that the TV market is going to be increasingly diverse. People are habituating to products that are tailored/personalized and I think the TV market will follow that larger trend. Also, the consumer TV companies are looking for ways to differentiate themselves.
Re: LGD's move to open cell OLED TV panels

I don't recall the specifics of the earnings call all these months later, but they were alluding to something like this in the call.

It's not surprising that the TV market would follow the increased specialization that happened in the monitor market (especially around gaming) and is happening in almost every market.

It will also accelerate the move to direct (e-commerce) selling. In a few years, it may be typical for you or I to go online and configure say a TV with sports quality motion bundled with a sports content package that takes advantage of that great motion tech and have the TV at our doorstep within a couple weeks.
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post #15923 of 16097 Old 08-11-2019, 12:01 PM
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Very interesting indeed. This will probably open the doors for much more differentiation among the different brands. Nice find.
So if a manufacturer wanted to make an OLED TV with the lowest MPRT, this would allow them to do so? Just buy an open cell OLED from LG and then make the necessary customizations.

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post #15924 of 16097 Old 08-12-2019, 06:18 AM
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So if a manufacturer wanted to make an OLED TV with the lowest MPRT, this would allow them to do so? Just buy an open cell OLED from LG and then make the necessary customizations.
I'm absolutely no expert in this. What I think is happening is that, so far, the panels that LGD has been selling to other brands (and LGE) had a portion of electronics "built in". That portion was unchangeable. With this developement I guess OEM will be able to get absolutely "raw" panels and build on them all the electronics they deem necessary.


You'll need to wait for experts but, as far as I understand it, OLED motion performance does not stem from its MPRT values (which are, I believe, almost instant). Rather it depends on the sample and hold nature of OLED displays. As such better motion performance (at low framerates) can be had with rolling scan, strobing, black frame insertion, etc.


I guess that you could do worse than reading this: https://www.blurbusters.com/faq/oled-motion-blur/

Again, I am no expert. I might have some or all info on the above wrong. Wait for people more in the know. I've just tried to explain what I understood so far.

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post #15925 of 16097 Old 08-12-2019, 09:56 AM
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...as far as I understand it, OLED motion performance does not stem from its MPRT values (which are, I believe, almost instant). Rather it depends on the sample and hold nature of OLED displays. As such better motion performance (at low framerates) can be had with rolling scan, strobing, black frame insertion, etc.
You're on the right track, but you confuse MPRT (persistence) and GtG (pixel response). It's the near instantaneous GtG that result in high MPRT values on low frame rate content (movies) that cause stuttering with OLED displays. A rolling scan BFI does reduce MPRT and improve motion.
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post #15926 of 16097 Old 08-13-2019, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I'm absolutely no expert in this. What I think is happening is that, so far, the panels that LGD has been selling to other brands (and LGE) had a portion of electronics "built in". That portion was unchangeable. With this developement I guess OEM will be able to get absolutely "raw" panels and build on them all the electronics they deem necessary.
Panel manufacturers (like LGD) deliver to ODM/OEM's mostly the raw panel, with only the Driver IC's (that actually turn on/off the subpixels), as seen in the "Categorization of Internal Interface" attachment, and the ODM/OEM (like LGE/Sony/etc.) add their own video processor (scaler/graphics) and timing controller (TCON) - as seen in the "Display Scaler-TCON-Driver-Panel flow diagram".

The Driver IC and the interface used for the Driver IC determines what the panel can or can't do - the limits of the panel.

The driver circuits have a specific interface. LGD uses for its OLED panels EPI (Embedded Panel Interface). EPI is based on the VESA standard EDID 1.3 and defines the software format for display properties and the scalable hardware interface.

Attached is the Circuit Block diagram of the LG OLED C6 2016 model K2L, where you can see the output to the scaler and the display panel (noted as Vx1) and in the Vx1 diagram, you can see the EPI outputs to the panel.
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Name:	LG OLED C6 2016 K2L Circuit Block diagram.PNG
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Last edited by dfa973; 08-13-2019 at 04:23 AM.
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post #15927 of 16097 Old 08-13-2019, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Panel manufacturers (like LGD) deliver to ODM/OEM's mostly the raw panel, with only the Driver IC's (that actually turn on/off the subpixels), as seen in the "Categorization of Internal Interface" attachment, and the ODM/OEM (like LGE/Sony/etc.) add their own video processor (scaler/graphics) and timing controller (TCON) - as seen in the "Display Scaler-TCON-Driver-Panel flow diagram".

The Driver IC and the interface used for the Driver IC determines what the panel can or can't do - the limits of the panel.

The driver circuits have a specific interface. LGD uses for its OLED panels EPI (Embedded Panel Interface). EPI is based on the VESA standard EDID 1.3 and defines the software format for display properties and the scalable hardware interface.

Attached is the Circuit Block diagram of the LG OLED C6 2016 model K2L, where you can see the output to the scaler and the display panel (noted as Vx1) and in the Vx1 diagram, you can see the EPI outputs to the panel.
Appreciate the depth!
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post #15928 of 16097 Old 08-13-2019, 10:18 AM
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Mobile OLED Advancements (Samsung Galaxy Note 10+)

I was struck reading the analysis of the new Samsung Galaxy Note 10+'s OLED display that its peak brightness is between 778-1,308 cd/m2.

http://www.displaymate.com/Galaxy_No...hootOut_1G.htm

I think an interesting question then is to what extent will the displays on our smartphones begin to set expectations for the picture quality of our TVs. A few years back I would have said slightly and mostly for resolution. Today, I'd say significantly for all PQ aspects.

An additional thought is how much opportunity there is for someone like Samsung to control and optimize the experience from capture to playback. They wouldn't have to wonder if say an investment in 120hz video recording would be worth it, since they have the agency to ensure the most likely display used for playing back that video was the one on that same device.
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post #15929 of 16097 Old 08-13-2019, 11:35 AM
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They put bells and whistles on phones. I think the top end iPhones support Dolby Vision for instance.

But I think the demographic who watch a lot of videos, especially longer content like TV shows and movies, not just Youtube videos, are not the ones buying big screen TVs.

Instead they are watching shows and movies on their phones and avoid sitting down in front of a big screen.

So I doubt Samsung phablets are going to influence TV buying. Why would someone impressed by OLED on Samsung phones buy Samsung LED TVs?
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post #15930 of 16097 Old 08-13-2019, 02:29 PM
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I think an interesting question then is to what extent will the displays on our smartphones begin to set expectations for the picture quality of our TVs.
I would say that "not much".
Smartphones are used with so much varied content and 99% of that content is unstandardized and uncalibrated (there are exceptions) and the users are very much not interested in calibrated content and display accuracy so the influence to the picture quality of our TVs is not that much.

There is a good thing about smartphones: there are very few controls left to the user for how the image is displayed - with very few exceptions.

The reverse is also true - the average TV customer has a very low interest in image accuracy. There are countless TV's that have weird image settings or are left in torch mode or whatever random mode that is pleasing to the owner.

The average conditions for a good display are like this:
- there is an image?
- it is colored?
- the colors are about right?
- if the colors are more saturated then good for me - I can brag about that and wow my friends/family/etc!
- does it have enough brightness?
- does it have enough contrast?
- it is the latest? (whatever that may mean)

If all/most are checked - the device is good. Carry on.
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