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post #121 of 213 Old 01-21-2016, 02:41 PM
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Helping out a friend -

His dedicated media room is about 14x20, and we've already decided on 4 volt 10LX for surround, and 3 1099 as LCR. The only thing that we are dilly dallying is the subwoofer. I see a lot of folks using a pair of sealed ultimax 18, and i feel that its an overkill. Will 1 ported cube15 with Eminence Lab15 be enough for a room of this size? Or should we go with a pair of sealed UM18?
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post #122 of 213 Old 01-21-2016, 03:53 PM
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Is your room closed off or open to other spaces?

Hard to go smaller than 2 18" subs.
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post #123 of 213 Old 01-21-2016, 04:09 PM
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1099 LCR with 4 10LX's for surrounds and two 18's are overkill?! Lol

You will need at least two 18's to keep up IMO
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post #124 of 213 Old 01-21-2016, 07:22 PM
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Depends. Two sealed 18s probably isn't much more than a 20hz ported 15. Maybe less. Porting gives a ton more output at the expense of <20hz response. If you don't care about <20hz then I'd go ported. Still may want to use 2 subs to help with many things, but 15s may be enough.
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post #125 of 213 Old 01-22-2016, 11:15 AM
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It's a sealed dedicated room. I was trying to impress upon him to go with 893/volt6 combination or something smaller, but he was set on 1099/volt10lx.
My only concern is with 2 18" subs, his entire front wall will be filled with speakers

But, i agree, 2 subs are better than one .... We are not really shooting for sub 20Hz response ... just need good output that can keep up with the 1099s.
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post #126 of 213 Old 01-22-2016, 12:02 PM
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use a false wall and an AT screen. BAM! hidden speakers!

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post #127 of 213 Old 01-25-2016, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophonix View Post
Helping out a friend -

His dedicated media room is about 14x20, and we've already decided on 4 volt 10LX for surround, and 3 1099 as LCR. The only thing that we are dilly dallying is the subwoofer. I see a lot of folks using a pair of sealed ultimax 18, and i feel that its an overkill. Will 1 ported cube15 with Eminence Lab15 be enough for a room of this size? Or should we go with a pair of sealed UM18?
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It's a sealed dedicated room. I was trying to impress upon him to go with 893/volt6 combination or something smaller, but he was set on 1099/volt10lx.
My only concern is with 2 18" subs, his entire front wall will be filled with speakers

But, i agree, 2 subs are better than one .... We are not really shooting for sub 20Hz response ... just need good output that can keep up with the 1099s.
How funny, I was literally just about to type up a post asking for suggestions for my 14x22 sealed dedicated theater room when I saw your posts. I have spent hours perusing this forum as well is the DIYSG forum and had somewhat decided on the 893's for LCR, 2xVolt8's for side surrounds, and 2xVolt6 for rear surrounds. But I'm also tempted by the 1099's up front and 2xVolt10 for side surround. The only problem is the 1099's are not currently available, so I was wondering if you guys think the 893's will be enough for my 3,700cuft room (14x22x12)? I also figure the 893 would be better match for the Volts due to its 93dB sensitivity vs 99dB of the 1099. And would the Volt10 be overkill for side surrounds? Should I stick with the Volt8?

As for subs, I already have an 18" 4.0cuft sealed ultimax powered by an EP2500 and am planning to add another. The subs will be placed in the L & R corners with the mains right above them, probably mounted on the wall. And I may end up adding some Volt 6's with the Atmos flat packs for a 7.2.4 setup, that is if I decide to also upgrade my receiver (Onkyo NR-809).
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post #128 of 213 Old 01-25-2016, 12:59 PM
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That is a pretty big room. Whether the 893 would fill it kind of depends on how much you expect from them. Want reference levels with 3db headroom? Maybe not. Sit 10ft away and like to hum along at -10db? No problem at all.
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post #129 of 213 Old 01-25-2016, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
That is a pretty big room. Whether the 893 would fill it kind of depends on how much you expect from them. Want reference levels with 3db headroom? Maybe not. Sit 10ft away and like to hum along at -10db? No problem at all.
My bad, I just remeasured the room and it's 14x22x10 - so about 3,100cuft rather than 3,700. I forgot that my theater room has lower ceilings than the rest of the house. I don't care too much about being able to listen at reference levels, I only do that when watching movies by myself (wife & kids don't like it that loud). Right how I have Infinity P363 mains which have dual 6.5" woofers, dual 4" mids, and a 3/4" tweeter, and they're rated at 8ohms with 93dB sensitivity (thought mine tested at 5.7ohms and about 90dB), and my receiver with 135W/ch (@8ohm) does a great job at driving them. They get plenty loud for me without too much distortion, but I'm looking for something with a lot more clarity and definition. I assume even the 893's will blow them out of the water, right? Any other recommendations? I had also considered the Fusion-4-Quads but figured the output might be a little low for my room size.

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post #130 of 213 Old 01-25-2016, 07:16 PM
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Two 8" woofers is a pretty big step up from two 6.5" woofers. If you go sealed the bass extension may not be any better, but that's why we use subs. I'd say it'll be a good upgrade but not sure it would be quite the massive one you suggest Don't want you to over hype it in your mind
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post #131 of 213 Old 01-26-2016, 09:50 PM
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Room Info – Living room in my new house – see diagram below. Not exactly optimal, but it’s what I got. Fairly large, many openings, lots of airspace.



Current Speakers & Power – Jamo S606 speakers powered by Denon AVR-1712, 2x Energy S10.3 subs. Towers have 1” tweeter, 2x 5” midranges, and a ported 8” woofer. They’re pretty decent. Center/surrounds have 1” tweeter and 4” woofers. They’re pretty wimpy. Would like new speakers to be able to run fine off AVR power (will be upgraded to a new model along with TV/speakers) but not opposed to getting a separate 2ch amp for the mains.

Listening Preference/Usage – Movies on weekends, music during the week. Loud – at or just below reference for movies, -20 to -6dB for music. Want excellent midbass punch and a top end that won’t make my ears bleed listening to AC/DC or Metallica.

Size Constraints – Current towers have tweeter around 42” off the ground which is just about right – so new mains should have tweeter somewhere in the 40-45” off the ground area. TV setup will be arranged to clear the center channel, but was planning on having the TV on a stand and not wall mounted, so probably not bigger than 6” drivers for the center. If the mains are 15” or less deep, that would be good. The right surround will have to mount in the little space between the doorway and the fireplace, so no more than 8 or 9” wide.

DIY Capabilities – Got decent tools and skill. Would certainly prefer flat packs.

Budget - $2000 for everything. Speakers, flat packs, terminals, other assorted accessories.

Reason for Upgrade – Old system was ok for the little apartment we were in, but now that I have space and a free standing house, I want to build a ‘real’ system. This will go along with an upgrade from a 42 to 70” TV

Future Plans – Maybe add another 2 rear surrounds for 7.2 or a couple Atmos speakers eventually.


So far I’m thinking Maximus 12 for mains, Fusion 6 center, Volt 6 surrounds. With everything I’ve read about the Magnum 12 driver kicking total ass in midbass/sub applications, I must have it. As for center/surrounds, they’re basically what will fit. And while it’s not the same as like a 1099 for center, dual 6’s plus a CD/waveguide is going to destroy the little 85dB efficient tweeter/4” mids that I have currently. And the angled enclosures for the Volt 6’s seem perfect for wall mounted surrounds.

I’m guessing I should get a separate amp for the Max 12s since they’ll likely be run full range or crossed at 40Hz, though I do see that they’re supposed to be a very easy load to drive in the midbass region. That would make integration easiest I think. I started out wanting to add MBMs to my existing setup and/or the new speakers, but having something fully integrated with a well-designed crossover seems like the best option since I’m essentially starting from the ground up.

I see the Maximus 12, the MBM-12 (with multiple sizes/tuning options), and the Flex 12 discussed, all using the same woofer. So it seems like this Magnum 12 driver works well in any reasonably sized enclosure tuned anywhere between like 17 and 50Hz lol.

- So basically, does my speaker choice seem good/make sense? Anything else I should consider instead?
- Can the Fusion 6 center be ported to extend a bit lower?
- How much power would you put to a Max 12?
- What are the crossover points/slopes for the Max 12?
- Is it worth the $200ea upgrade to get the LX version with the B&C mid?
- What enclosure volume/tuning frequency(s) should I use for the 12?

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post #132 of 213 Old 01-27-2016, 04:55 AM
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The max 12-lxe is the diysg speaker that really interests me. I'd try it for the little extra over the standard max 12. You get a better compression driver and mid.

Fusion 6 bookshelf speaker is one if my favorite diysg speakers. Low sensitivity though. Center should be a bit higher due to second woofer but probably won't hang with the max 12.

IMO the center speaker is one of if not the most important speaker in multichannel audio. Everything should be built around it.
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post #133 of 213 Old 01-27-2016, 05:50 AM
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Yeah, that was one of my concerns. Before looking at all DIY I was thinking about a Def Tech 8060 setup - I think their full range center with powered woofer idea is pretty smart (and matching drivers to the towers).

What would you use instead?
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post #134 of 213 Old 01-27-2016, 12:31 PM
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I could make the Fusion 6 center channel deeper and port it to gain some more efficiency in the low end. And while it is listed at 89db efficient, that's at 12 ohms, so closer to 91db 1w/1m, so only 3 or 4db off from the Max12, so that doesn't seem completely unreasonable.

I could try to do a trio of 893's for L/C/R plus a pair of MBMs for not much more money, but a near 11" tall center channel seems really huge if it's gotta fit below the TV. I suppose it's a possibility though since I'm starting from scratch and can arrange things how I need to.

How are these cinema speakers with woofers on top and bottom for music? I just ask because it's not a real common design in "standard hi fi" designs. This system will be used heavily for 2ch music.
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post #135 of 213 Old 01-30-2016, 07:22 PM
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I was thinking of building a pair of speakers with/for my 14 year old son and was wondering what a good choice would be.

They would be 'desktop' speakers used with his computer and for music listening. They would be in a fairly large room (basement)... approximately 600 Sq Ft.

I'll either power them with an old AVR or pickup one of the small digital amps like a DTA-120

DYI skills are minimal... flatpack a must

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post #136 of 213 Old 02-01-2016, 02:58 PM
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So, just found this thread, and it's going to be a lot of help!

I'm a long-time AVS member, and enthusiast. I've finally built a home where I will have a dedicated theatre in the basement. The room will be about 20'x20' with 9' ceilings. I'm beginning the design phase for the system. My plan is to focus on movies, with a 2.35:1 140 " acoustically transparent screen, and hidden speakers for a 7.1.4 Atmos system. I had been thinking about trying to find some good prices on use JTR, or similar speakers, but have now been leaning toward DIY.

I want to have a lot of head room. I like to listen at reference type levels most of the time (100-105 db). And would like to have all 11 of the speakers be able to keep up with it. I also imagine keeping common tweeters across every speaker will be important (unless the ceiling speakers really have limited frequencies from ATMOS). The front LCR will be behind the AT screen, the 4 surround speakers will be hidden in false posts, or recessed in the walls, and the 4 height speakers will be in the ceiling (probably a drop ceiling for future proofing).

For the subwoofer, I have behind the screen a 42" wide x 18" deep x 9' tall concrete cavity that would just need a top and baffle on the front to have a super rigid subwoofer enclosure, right in the front of the room. I've built several transmission line and ported boxes in my youth, so I'm licking my lips at the thought of what I could do with the space, but honestly don't have the time to design/plan it (or develop the base of knowledge for doing it competently.

Please let me know if you'd be willing to help point me in the right direction for speaker selection/driver selection. Ideally, I'd buy flat packs and have Mig do the crossovers. I tend to not like bright speakers/tweeters, and find myself drawn to horn tweeters (HSU HB-2 for bed room speakers), ribbons, or soft dome. Ideally, I'd like to spend $400-500/front speaker, and $150-250 for surround and ceiling.

For amps, I'm planning on going with separates and balanced inputs from a processor. Maybe used Emotiva amps (or similar) and an Onkyo/Marantz refurb processor with Atmos and DTS:X upgrade.

Thanks for your time.
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post #137 of 213 Old 02-01-2016, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd say 1099's or 1299's up front, Volt-8's or Volt-10's for everything else, including Atmos.

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post #138 of 213 Old 02-01-2016, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by er824 View Post
I was thinking of building a pair of speakers with/for my 14 year old son and was wondering what a good choice would be.

They would be 'desktop' speakers used with his computer and for music listening. They would be in a fairly large room (basement)... approximately 600 Sq Ft.

I'll either power them with an old AVR or pickup one of the small digital amps like a DTA-120

DYI skills are minimal... flatpack a must

Hitmakers or Classix would be a good speaker to try out.

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post #139 of 213 Old 02-01-2016, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I'd say 1099's or 1299's up front, Volt-8's or Volt-10's for everything else, including Atmos.
I agree with the surround options for sure. Such a great way to load up a room with surround speakers.

For the mains, because he has so much room, an AT screen, and mentioned he doesn't like bright speakers, I'd suggest he also considers the Fusion 15. The AT screen will knock out some highs so the XX99 speakers will work very well also. The Fusion 12 would be tempting but I don't think it would suit the AT screen and a single 12 in that room with his listening preferences would do ok, but not have the head room he wants IMO.

So, I agree the XX99s or add the Fusion 15 into the consideration. And just cause I thought of it just now, also the Cinema 10 if you wanted to save some money and it's a very easy build.
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post #140 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 09:53 AM
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Gents, any further thoughts on my questions from posts 131-134?
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post #141 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I agree with the surround options for sure. Such a great way to load up a room with surround speakers.

For the mains, because he has so much room, an AT screen, and mentioned he doesn't like bright speakers, I'd suggest he also considers the Fusion 15. The AT screen will knock out some highs so the XX99 speakers will work very well also. The Fusion 12 would be tempting but I don't think it would suit the AT screen and a single 12 in that room with his listening preferences would do ok, but not have the head room he wants IMO.

So, I agree the XX99s or add the Fusion 15 into the consideration. And just cause I thought of it just now, also the Cinema 10 if you wanted to save some money and it's a very easy build.
Leaning toward 1299s or Fusion 15 (since bigger is always better). Any reason to pick one over the other for my use (LCR for Reference Levels in a 3600 cubic foot sealed room)?

Volt 10 (LX?) coax seem to make sense. Better to seal them in the Atmos Flatpack or go IB in the ceiling/wall?

Adding up the prices, I'm going to need to spend some time saving! Hopefully dive in Q2 2016. Do they offer any quantity discounts?

What should I be tossing power wise at these? Says 10-400W for the 10s and 10-800W for the 1299. Given that I plan on reference levels should I be looking for 50-75W RMS for the surrounds and ceilings, and 100+W for the fronts?

I'll probably try to buy something cool and used for the amps (older Rotel, B&K, NAD, etc).

Now.....what do I do for a sub with all that volume I have reserved for it!? I've got 40 cubic feet.
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post #142 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 07:12 PM
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Gents, any further thoughts on my questions from posts 131-134?
Can you summarize you questions? I'm on my phone usually and there is a lot in those posts. Thanks.
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post #143 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 08:04 PM
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Gents, any further thoughts on my questions from posts 131-134?
I will say this with no ill toward you or your budget. Spend all you can for your fronts (L/C/R). May look at the cinema speakers on diysound group site. I have the 1099's and couldn't be happier but if size is a real constraint maybe go with the 893's. Once you have your front stage set you will need some good bass to keep up with these. The stonehedge on the same site is a winner as far as ported goes. The volts are great for surrounds, I have 6 volt 10's. Start slow and keep saving , don't just jump into everything at once. get your mains done first and surrounds, and you will then understand more about how much bass you will need. If all possible get L/C/R matching, you wont be disappointed down the road if you match them all. And most of all have fun in your journey.
Good luck
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post #144 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 08:29 PM
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Leaning toward 1299s or Fusion 15 (since bigger is always better). Any reason to pick one over the other for my use (LCR for Reference Levels in a 3600 cubic foot sealed room)?

Volt 10 (LX?) coax seem to make sense. Better to seal them in the Atmos Flatpack or go IB in the ceiling/wall?

Adding up the prices, I'm going to need to spend some time saving! Hopefully dive in Q2 2016. Do they offer any quantity discounts?

What should I be tossing power wise at these? Says 10-400W for the 10s and 10-800W for the 1299. Given that I plan on reference levels should I be looking for 50-75W RMS for the surrounds and ceilings, and 100+W for the fronts?

I'll probably try to buy something cool and used for the amps (older Rotel, B&K, NAD, etc).

Now.....what do I do for a sub with all that volume I have reserved for it!? I've got 40 cubic feet.
As far as ATMOS goes, you may think about the Volt 10's as surrounds and volt 6 for ceiling. I am toying with the idea but not until next year when all the kinks are worked out. I then would mount the volt 6's in ceiling as IB but your room is so much larger than mine that on ceiling might be ok for you depending on ceiling height.


For power is dependent on how many channels your avr is capable of putting out. With either the 1299's or Fusion 15 your avr will be able to make your ear bleed. I read as you probably have that you need to have more power to play loud and clean, so I bought an Emo XPA-3 for my front three 1099's and thought I would hear a difference. The answer is NO. My denon 4311ci played the 1099's just fine but now with the Emo in the loop I can just play them even louder which was a waste of money since with my 4311 at reference was way louder than a persons hearing should be allowed to listen to without earplugs.


As far as bass goes that will depend on you and your wallet. I have two svs plus 12's and two diy 18's. And just recently acquired two picowreckers. With the 12's and 18's I was happy but I think the picowreckers so far are blending with the 1099's really awesome. Just the pico's alone are violent. when the bass hits playing music, you know it hits, my chairs and pictures are shacking and my vision gets blurry if I listen too long at loud levels. LOL


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post #145 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 08:40 PM
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Can you summarize you questions? I'm on my phone usually and there is a lot in those posts. Thanks.
Hmm, alright. I guess at this point it boils down to:

893+MBM-12 vs Maximus-12 vs 1299 for mains that play a lot of music and some movies on weekends? I want real nice punchy midbass, smooth midrange, and top end that won't tear my head off.

I'm thinking about starting with left and right front and rears then deciding if I need/want a center. Right now I don't like how it's obvious voices are coming from the center channel below the TV, rather than sounding like they're coming from the middle of the TV like they do with just the left and right producing a phantom center.
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post #146 of 213 Old 02-02-2016, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by strakele View Post
I'm thinking about starting with left and right front and rears then deciding if I need/want a center. Right now I don't like how it's obvious voices are coming from the center channel below the TV, rather than sounding like they're coming from the middle of the TV like they do with just the left and right producing a phantom center.
I have never felt like the voicing was come from my center channel but was a perfect blend between l/c/r to bring that voicing in the center of my 70 in tv.


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post #147 of 213 Old 02-03-2016, 07:46 AM
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I have never felt like the voicing was come from my center channel but was a perfect blend between l/c/r to bring that voicing in the center of my 70 in tv.
Man, the 1099's and 18s make that TV look small lol. 70 is the size I'm planning on getting as well.

And I believe your front 3 blend very nicely - it looks like maybe only 3 or 4 inches of height difference between the mid/tweet section in your center vs left and right. Now imagine your 1099 towers were about a foot taller so the mid/tweet section was right in line with the middle of the TV, resulting in a ~16+ inch height difference to the center. Do you still think it would be as smooth? That's how my current setup is and I can tell you it's not awesome. I'm sure the nice dispersion and controlled coverage of the waveguide speakers held in this regard though.
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post #148 of 213 Old 02-03-2016, 09:01 AM
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As far as ATMOS goes, you may think about the Volt 10's as surrounds and volt 6 for ceiling. I am toying with the idea but not until next year when all the kinks are worked out. I then would mount the volt 6's in ceiling as IB but your room is so much larger than mine that on ceiling might be ok for you depending on ceiling height.


For power is dependent on how many channels your avr is capable of putting out. With either the 1299's or Fusion 15 your avr will be able to make your ear bleed. I read as you probably have that you need to have more power to play loud and clean, so I bought an Emo XPA-3 for my front three 1099's and thought I would hear a difference. The answer is NO. My denon 4311ci played the 1099's just fine but now with the Emo in the loop I can just play them even louder which was a waste of money since with my 4311 at reference was way louder than a persons hearing should be allowed to listen to without earplugs.


As far as bass goes that will depend on you and your wallet. I have two svs plus 12's and two diy 18's. And just recently acquired two picowreckers. With the 12's and 18's I was happy but I think the picowreckers so far are blending with the 1099's really awesome. Just the pico's alone are violent. when the bass hits playing music, you know it hits, my chairs and pictures are shacking and my vision gets blurry if I listen too long at loud levels. LOL
Thanks for the advice. I've been trying to go separates for a long time, so that I can just change the pre/pro whenever I want to upgrade (or downgrade), but glad to know I can start with just an AVR, but your AVR has a serious amp in it (so does my current Pioneer Elite SC-07). Maybe I'll just use that, and start slow with the front 3, sub/sub amp, and the surrounds, then upgrade to ATMOS, and eventually separate amps.

Why the Volt 6 from the ceiling instead of the 8 or 10? Is there really not a lot going to be coming out of them?

Just read about the pico, very interesting. I've got a ton of space, so I will probably go with something similar, but bigger.
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post #149 of 213 Old 02-03-2016, 09:06 AM
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Man, the 1099's and 18s make that TV look small lol. 70 is the size I'm planning on getting as well.

And I believe your front 3 blend very nicely - it looks like maybe only 3 or 4 inches of height difference between the mid/tweet section in your center vs left and right. Now imagine your 1099 towers were about a foot taller so the mid/tweet section was right in line with the middle of the TV, resulting in a ~16+ inch height difference to the center. Do you still think it would be as smooth? That's how my current setup is and I can tell you it's not awesome. I'm sure the nice dispersion and controlled coverage of the waveguide speakers held in this regard though.
I do have the center tilted up just so the waveguide points toward MLP and even with a 16 inch difference with it pointed toward you, the sound I believe will portray coming from center of TV. Once you have the fronts EQ'd it will make a big difference.
I do have a 110" ceiling mounted screen that comes down for night and the 70" is used mostly for day viewing.


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post #150 of 213 Old 02-03-2016, 09:36 AM
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I do have the center tilted up just so the waveguide points toward MLP and even with a 16 inch difference with it pointed toward you, the sound I believe will portray coming from center of TV.
I do have my center pulled past the front edge of the cabinet it's in and aimed up toward the listening position, though I admit I haven't tweaked the angle down to the fraction of an inch. Perhaps that's worthy of more experimentation. But I've always found it very difficult for a speaker to image anywhere other than where it is when it's the only speaker playing that content.
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