Little Bro to the 1099 - Development thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 437 Old 07-27-2015, 07:43 PM
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The chance of the 893 having flat packs and a custom shipping box made up before that 30 day mark probably would have been pushing it anyway. There's a lot of work that goes into these types of speaker kits when they use so many custom parts.

I don't want to get front baffles cut until I have the mids because if by some chance there was any change in the frame production, they would all be wrong.

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post #62 of 437 Old 07-27-2015, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The chance of the 893 having flat packs and a custom shipping box made up before that 30 day mark probably would have been pushing it anyway. There's a lot of work that goes into these types of speaker kits when they use so many custom parts.

I don't want to get front baffles cut until I have the mids because if by some chance there was any change in the frame production, they would all be wrong.
Thanks for the update on the website Erich. I'm going to try and wait this 893 out. Please let me know if pre-ordering will help you out - if so i'd be glad to send payment. Some of your other new kits sound interesting too! Cinema 6 and Concentric 8 options....

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post #63 of 437 Old 08-07-2015, 07:49 PM
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post #64 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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The pre-order is up on this. If people are sitting on the fence waiting for measurement data, it is coming. I'll put it in this thread. The rain moved in last week and I haven't gotten to do it. I have some preliminary stuff I can post up if the weather doesn't let up this weekend. For now I'll give you some subjective info:

The 893 is a modest 93db/w/m. I always rate conservatively in the free field. When used as expected, below/next to a TV or solid screen, the effeciency increases to over 95db/w/m quite easily. The sound character and balance is quite similar to the 1099 for matching and to continue the trend. I took off a little smidge of the sizzle up top although I've preserved the forward presentation of dialogue. The 1099 had one complaint and that was that it was to bright for some people and I think if it was taken down a notch, nobody would complain. So hopefully this is on the money. Two different speakers can never be exactly the same, but I think I got really close.

The 893 has several advantages to the 1099:

- The first is that it is obviously quite a bit smaller. This speaker fits quite comfortably under my 39" panasonic upstairs in my living room. I think it'll look quite good under anything 50" and up. It can also fit into entertainment centers comfortably as well.

- The woofer to mid XO is lower, about 500hz. This combined with the smaller drivers means there is absolutely no horizontal issues with this speaker at all. I watched a movie literally 45° off axis and could understand the entire dialogue. The only tonal shift was the directivity of the waveguide. The 1099 did create nulls around 30° off axis. Although I don't think that was an issue for the 1099, this certainly is nice for living rooms with flanking couches where people lounge around and watch TV way off axis - you'll hear everything!

- This speaker is sealed with about 80hz F3. This is nice for a couple reasons. For one, construction is really simple. Combined with the sealed back mids, this thing is a snap to put together (see vid in Post 1). The other is that it is really tolerant of EQ in the low frequencies and without any port phase shift, integrating with subs should be dead easy. Whether you do this manually or with Audyssey, it should be a snap. The woofers can also be ported in a larger box (talk to me for details) and get an even lower F3 = 35hz! Be warned, it takes a big box. But if you have space for a floor standing speaker, this can really do bass well. The trade off here was sensitivity. We just knew an 8XX speaker wasn't going to be 99db sensitive, so Erich decided using a woofer that could do bass really well was the right way to go. I agree, the output potential is still rather incredible with this speaker. 2x8" pro woofers is a lot of output

Hope that offers some preliminary insight. I'm open to any questions. If there's some data you'd like, let me know before I go and measure and I'll try and capture it. I generally don't display HD due to the difficulty of interpretting it. It's not a linear/comparible piece of data.
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post #65 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 08:53 AM
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......and pre-ordered!!!!!!!!!!!
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post #66 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
- The woofer to mid XO is lower, about 500hz. This combined with the smaller drivers means there is absolutely no horizontal issues with this speaker at all. I watched a movie literally 45° off axis and could understand the entire dialogue. The only tonal shift was the directivity of the waveguide. The 1099 did create nulls around 30° off axis. Although I don't think that was an issue for the 1099, this certainly is nice for living rooms with flanking couches where people lounge around and watch TV way off axis - you'll hear everything!
For my and everyone else's clarity here, this point of comparison between 893 and 1099 is referring to the horizontal configuration of each. Right?

It sounds like you've really worked some miracles when it comes to horizontal directivity of a horizontal speaker. What made that more achievable with this collection of drivers than it was on the 1099?
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post #67 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 09:53 AM
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Yes, he is talking about the horizontal configuration. The lower xo from the woofers to the mids means that the two smaller mids are even closer together when compared to the longer wavelengths of the lower frequency sound. This allows the two mids to behave more like a single point source - so the off-axis interactions common in side-by-side driver configurations are largely gone or at least pushed way outside the normal listening position.

It's a set of fairly easily understood priorities in center speaker design, but finding the midrange driver capable of it while sounding good makes the job much harder.
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post #68 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post
Yes, he is talking about the horizontal configuration. The lower xo from the woofers to the mids means that the two smaller mids are even closer together when compared to the longer wavelengths of the lower frequency sound. This allows the two mids to behave more like a single point source - so the off-axis interactions common in side-by-side driver configurations are largely gone or at least pushed way outside the normal listening position.

It's a set of fairly easily understood priorities in center speaker design, but finding the midrange driver capable of it while sounding good makes the job much harder.
We're talking about the lower end of the mid passband. Keeping them acting as a point source should only have limited their upper end.
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post #69 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Yup the center, thanks for catching that.

Part of why the 1099 isn't quite as good here is cause of the sensitivity I was trying to achieve. I crossed higher for bandpass gain and it also was where the drivers "like" being crossed (phase and stuff). Everything worked out well around 700 for the 1099. Everything worked well at 500hz for the 893. It didn't seem like at issue for the 1099 design so I lived with it. But in this iteration the horizontal lobing is basically obliterated.
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post #70 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 10:45 AM
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We're talking about the lower end of the mid passband. Keeping them acting as a point source should only have limited their upper end.
You're right. I had my head on backwards. I think if you apply my argument to the high end of the woofers' passband it adds up.
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post #71 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
The pre-order is up on this. If people are sitting on the fence waiting for measurement data, it is coming. I'll put it in this thread. The rain moved in last week and I haven't gotten to do it. I have some preliminary stuff I can post up if the weather doesn't let up this weekend. For now I'll give you some subjective info:

The 893 is a modest 93db/w/m. I always rate conservatively in the free field. When used as expected, below/next to a TV or solid screen, the effeciency increases to over 95db/w/m quite easily. The sound character and balance is quite similar to the 1099 for matching and to continue the trend. I took off a little smidge of the sizzle up top although I've preserved the forward presentation of dialogue. The 1099 had one complaint and that was that it was to bright for some people and I think if it was taken down a notch, nobody would complain. So hopefully this is on the money. Two different speakers can never be exactly the same, but I think I got really close.

The 893 has several advantages to the 1099:

- The first is that it is obviously quite a bit smaller. This speaker fits quite comfortably under my 39" panasonic upstairs in my living room. I think it'll look quite good under anything 50" and up. It can also fit into entertainment centers comfortably as well.

- The woofer to mid XO is lower, about 500hz. This combined with the smaller drivers means there is absolutely no horizontal issues with this speaker at all. I watched a movie literally 45° off axis and could understand the entire dialogue. The only tonal shift was the directivity of the waveguide. The 1099 did create nulls around 30° off axis. Although I don't think that was an issue for the 1099, this certainly is nice for living rooms with flanking couches where people lounge around and watch TV way off axis - you'll hear everything!

- This speaker is sealed with about 80hz F3. This is nice for a couple reasons. For one, construction is really simple. Combined with the sealed back mids, this thing is a snap to put together (see vid in Post 1). The other is that it is really tolerant of EQ in the low frequencies and without any port phase shift, integrating with subs should be dead easy. Whether you do this manually or with Audyssey, it should be a snap. The woofers can also be ported in a larger box (talk to me for details) and get an even lower F3 = 35hz! Be warned, it takes a big box. But if you have space for a floor standing speaker, this can really do bass well. The trade off here was sensitivity. We just knew an 8XX speaker wasn't going to be 99db sensitive, so Erich decided using a woofer that could do bass really well was the right way to go. I agree, the output potential is still rather incredible with this speaker. 2x8" pro woofers is a lot of output

Hope that offers some preliminary insight. I'm open to any questions. If there's some data you'd like, let me know before I go and measure and I'll try and capture it. I generally don't display HD due to the difficulty of interpretting it. It's not a linear/comparible piece of data.


Nice write up. I would love to see the measurements. Sounds like you hit a home run.
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post #72 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 03:54 PM
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The 893 had more overall development time than any speaker kit yet. There was a lot of time spent finding mids that would perform the way we needed for this model. I have prototypes from other companies that were tested until we eventually decided the OEM Celestions would work. These ended up being the same 4" mids Tom Danley uses in one of his Synergy or Unity speakers (I can't recall which). At least that's what someone told me.

There wasn't a waveguide with the proper proportions to work for the 893.......so one was designed that still held the SEOS angles and dimensions of the other models. This took quite a while with me doing a little guesstimating on the needed depth and things like that. In the end, they worked great. Basically the waveguide was initially designed to work with the 893.

There wasn't a 16 ohm 8" woofer anywhere that would do 80hz in a smaller sealed box and still handle lots of power, and have decent sensitivity. So I asked Eminence if they could help build something that would work. After a few different prototypes, these rubber surround woofers were chosen. Eminence did a great job meeting the requirements. Tux and I did consider a higher sensitivity model using the same custom 16 ohm 8" woofers used in the 88-Special, and the other dual 8" woofer kits. That would have certainly been the easier way to go, but we agreed to go for a smaller sealed enclosure that could be turned into a full range tower if anyone wanted to.

At some point we discussed using a dome tweeter in this model with the rubber surround 8" woofers, and then a compression driver in a model using the higher sensitivity 8" pro woofers from the 88-Special. But in the end, this is what we both settled on. I'm not sure either of those other ideas will ever be done, because I don't think there's much of a need. This kit hit's right in the middle of both.


I have to say, Eminence was very excited to see these speakers get done. No one noticed but at some point earlier in the year they posted pictures of the 1899 and the 1099 on their Facebook page. And of course Celestion also came through with the mids. And with them being sealed back drivers, there's no need for a separate compartment inside the enclosure, so assembly is very easy.

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post #73 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 03:59 PM
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By the way, if anyone can help come up with a name for this little bugger, let me know. It should end in 'sive'. I originally thought 'Cohesive-893' just because of how it came together, but I'm not so sure.

I think I should make a category called "The Impressive's" for the Elusive 1099, Intrusive 1899, and this model.

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post #74 of 437 Old 09-03-2015, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
By the way, if anyone can help come up with a name for this little bugger, let me know. It should end in 'sive'. I originally thought 'Cohesive-893' just because of how it came together, but I'm not so sure.

I think I should make a category called "The Impressive's" for the Elusive 1099, Intrusive 1899, and this model.
In line with tuxedocivic's comments regarding off axis listening, dispersive fits
I am looking forward to pre ordering these
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post #75 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 04:49 AM
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Do you have a roundabout size on the ported 89X speakers? Also, did you get a chance to test this setup and would it require a different crossover?

Thanks a lot! You do great work!
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post #76 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
By the way, if anyone can help come up with a name for this little bugger, let me know. It should end in 'sive'. I originally thought 'Cohesive-893' just because of how it came together, but I'm not so sure.

I think I should make a category called "The Impressive's" for the Elusive 1099, Intrusive 1899, and this model.
Given the story of its creation? The time it took? The fact that it outperforms its big brother in several ways?

The Definitive 893.
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post #77 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 06:39 AM
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I wouldn't say it outperforms the 1099, just does things a little differently.

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post #78 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 06:59 AM
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Would the 893 work well as a center for the Fusion 15"s ? The 88 spec is so tall i'm not sure I can make it work under the tv Or should i just go with 1099's and 893 center. Do the 1099's have midbass like a Fusion 15? I have 4 diy 15in subs for low end and my current speakers are Polk Monitor 70/cs20/ monitor 30/40 for surrounds. Music is where Im not happy with my setup and not sure which direction to go.
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post #79 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 08:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you have a roundabout size on the ported 89X speakers? Also, did you get a chance to test this setup and would it require a different crossover?
I should measure it and post the dimensions here. It's about 10" wide, 28" tall, and maybe 12" deep... just going by memory. I'll try and remember to measure it.

I'll be testing it hopefully this weekend. I mean, I've tested it a lot, just not the final stuff that I want for presentation. If it keeps raining I'll present some things I have now just for preliminary purposes.

I'm not sure what you mean by a different XO? It's an entirely different speaker than the 1099 and does require a different XO. That's what I've been working on since May. If you use the 1099 XO in this speaker it won't sound good.

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The fact that it outperforms its big brother in several ways?
Ya just to be clear adding to what Erich said... Although there are some things I've mentioned that are better, the 1099 still has other attributes that are better. The 99db/w/m sensitivity for one. You probably know this, I'm just stating it to make sure others understand. I'd hate for someone to junk their 1099 and buy this speaker and wonder what the fuss is about haha.

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Would the 893 work well as a center for the Fusion 15"s ? The 88 spec is so tall i'm not sure I can make it work under the tv Or should i just go with 1099's and 893 center. Do the 1099's have midbass like a Fusion 15? I have 4 diy 15in subs for low end and my current speakers are Polk Monitor 70/cs20/ monitor 30/40 for surrounds. Music is where Im not happy with my setup and not sure which direction to go.
Tough question. Both the Fusion 15 / 88 Special and the 1099 / 893 setups would probably be excellent. The 1099s don't have much natural midbass. That is, if you just plug them in and let them play. But dual 10s are capable of just as much mid bass as a 15 if you need. The DIYSG kits all have a lot of similarities, but you're asking about two very different setups actually. I haven't heard the Fusion 15 / 88 special either. I wouldn't say the 893 doesn't match the Fusion 15, but I'd suspect it matches the 1099 better.

Hope that helps, sorry not very definitive.
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post #80 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 09:02 AM
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Thanks Tux, been saving extra cash(alot of late weekend nights running sound) for a year to be able to buy some nice diy LCR. Makes the decision hard for me since money doesnt grow on trees in my yard
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post #81 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you able to demo some of them? If you live in a populated area you stand a good chance of being near someone who owns 1099s or Fusion 15s.
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post #82 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 09:49 AM
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Or hold out for 1299 that has a good chance of fruition. =D
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post #83 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 10:07 AM
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Ya know, I have no doubt that all the diy speakers sound great, I try to read all the GTG threads and watch what people say...sometimes tho you hear someone say a model is lacking bass and you see they are tuned to 45hz, well we use jbl srx 715 tops in the band pa and they have good bass as the specs say fr 43-53hz. Am i understanding something wrong?
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post #84 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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The tuning doesn't tell the whole story. I put a slope down to the tuning on my designs to get the port tune as far away from 80hz as possible. So it might have extension to 45hz but it's "lacking" below 80. The room is so influential in the bass also. My room has a lovely wide peak at 50hz that make almost all speakers sound heavy bass. If it was a suck out every speaker would sound weak.

The 1299 will come some day I hope. No idea yet what it'll be like.
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post #85 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 11:05 AM
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Thanks for explaining that.....that makes more sense to me....the pa speaker has less of a slope then. i will look at the graphs on all the speakers to get a better read on this...ty
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post #86 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by a different XO? It's an entirely different speaker than the 1099 and does require a different XO. That's what I've been working on since May. If you use the 1099 XO in this speaker it won't sound good.
Sorry I didn't eplaine well. Will the ported 89x (X because the efficiency would be different?) require a different crossover than the sealed 893?
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post #87 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 12:59 PM
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Tux or Erich,

How will the 893 center work with the Cheap Thrills? Or is the 88 Special a better match? Just curious.
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post #88 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Sorry I didn't eplaine well. Will the ported 89x (X because the efficiency would be different?) require a different crossover than the sealed 893?
Oh ok, I see the confusion. The ported version will still be 93db effecient, it'll just extend much deeper (35hz roughly). The XO will be the exact same, just the box will be different. So someone could build floor standing boxes instead of the sealed box and put the baffle on it like a double baffle and get quite a bass happy speaker. Baffle would go on something like this: http://zaphaudio.com/Waveguidetmm.html
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post #89 of 437 Old 09-04-2015, 01:13 PM
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I actually like the look of that double baffle. I'm excited to see how the results for the speaker look. I'd have to put the sealed versions on stands so they would take up the same space essentially with less range.

Thanks for the quick response and the awesome design. Looking forward to how this turns out.
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post #90 of 437 Old 09-08-2015, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I got measurements and I'll be posting them tonight hopefully
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