Tower of Power build with 893, MBM, Volt 6 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 100 Old 04-14-2016, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
The dip doesn't look nearly as bad now. But the peak looks pretty bad... ill pull mine out and play with it this weekend and see if something could be causing that like some diffraction or something.

Is there any possibility that having the woofer magnet close to an inductor or just the crossover board in general could be causing any issues? I know a lot of us are limited in where we can place the circuit boards depending on if we make them ourselves or use the premade ones. I know at least my L&R speakers are like this.

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post #62 of 100 Old 04-14-2016, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Good question, I had thought about that too. As pictured I the first page my crossovers are on the floor of the enclosure below the bottom woofer. There should be a couple inches of space but it is a big powerful magnet..
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post #63 of 100 Old 04-14-2016, 05:56 PM
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For the MBMs with the flat packs from DIY Sound Group. If i did the math correctly which is doubtful. Based on the formulas on the sheet that comes with the port tube the center tube should be cut down to 4.66" for the center tube? Can you confirm if I have that correct?

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post #64 of 100 Old 04-14-2016, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been modeling it but haven't decided on a final tuning. Haven't cut the port tubes yet. Today I finally got more T-nuts so the baffle on the first one is currently curing.

What tuning frequency did you model to get that port length?
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post #65 of 100 Old 04-14-2016, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by strakele View Post
I've been modeling it but haven't decided on a final tuning. Haven't cut the port tubes yet. Today I finally got more T-nuts so the baffle on the first one is currently curing.

What tuning frequency did you model to get that port length?
I modeled 36hz however. I just picked that from the 3 different frequency's listed on the diy page. I am really out of my depth with this.

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post #66 of 100 Old 04-15-2016, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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With the included port tube and using the Precision Port site calculator, I cut 3 lengths tuned to the frequencies written on them so I can experiment a bit.



Baffle going on:



Bit of denim insulation - not sure if this is enough...



And in place ready for testing!



Tomorrow I'll test response with port on top and bottom and do some full range measurements to see how everything is integrating. I'll be starting off with them bridged and running off of Sub 1 output from my AVR with Sub 2 going to the true subs with their on-board crossover turned all the way down to 50Hz.
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post #67 of 100 Old 04-16-2016, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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After lining the other with denim insulation, caulking the edges, and some issues with a couple screws not wanting to thread in properly, both MBMs are in place and making sound!

And here they are with my new 65" TV. It just looks small compare to the speakers...



Haven't run Audyssey yet. Started with manual EQ using the Denon's GEQ for the 893's and the PEQ in the iNuke for the MBMs.

893's crossed at 200Hz. Still the dip at 400 but I got them pretty smoothed out.



MBM's



And whole system with the subs (no EQ on the subs since Audyssey was off):



There's some room to better integrate the subs, but I didn't touch anything on them other than lowering the crossover.


Wife and I went through a bunch of cool songs with the volume cranked grinning ear to ear - laughing even. This system is AWESOME. By far the most fun home system we've heard. The 893's provide the dynamics and detail with great snap. The MBMs produce the great punch and growling midbass we were after with the added benefit of making the subwoofers sound a lot better as well. We still plan on DIYing some new subs, but even now with the little 250W 10's, it's very impressive.

So yeah. Very happy.

So on to finishing. Need to cut the angle pieces for the sides and back. I have a bunch of grill guides now and need to make the frame for the bottom section grill. Also got a 45 chamfer router bit today that I'm going to run over the front edges. Baffle will be black, rest of the towers will hopefully match the new TV stand. Looking at veneer and laminate and stuff for that. Also got some mounts for the Volts. Progress is probably gonna get a bit slower since I'm about to get a lot busier. I was trying really hard to have everything make sound by this weekend, so at least that was accomplished.
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post #68 of 100 Old 04-24-2016, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I set out yesterday to do a couple measurements then flip the MBMs over to see if the response was any different with the woofer closer to the ground. But I got sidetracked with tuning and Audyssey and other stuff.

Anyway, first up, here's the raw un-EQ'd response of both MBMs together with a 200Hz LPF. I've been running them bridged off one sub out from the receiver so I haven't bothered taking independent left/right measurements yet. All graphs are 1/24 octave resolution, no smoothing, 50 averages around the MLP.



And here's about as flat as I can get them using the iNuke DSP (couple tweaks from previous post):



Here's both full towers with subs. Manual graphic EQ on the 893's, iNuke DSP on the MBMs, no EQ on the subs (with a little bit of tweaking of the sub phase knobs which helped the dip at 70Hz a little):



After that I decided to see what Audyssey XT32 would do with it instead of switching up the orientation of the MBMs. One thing to note, if you plan on running MBMs off a sub out, you'll likely need to set a LPF via an amplifier prior to calibrating. I had just been using the internal crossover of the Denon with no LPF on the amp since I didn't see the need to stack crossovers. But obviously that's all off when calibrating, and I think it confused Audyssey when it heard such a wide range signal coming from the sub. Due to the efficiency of the Magnum 12 higher in the frequency spectrum, Audyssey probably measured the -3 dB point to be at like 100Hz. So I kept getting an ambient noise too high or signal too low error. After setting a LPF in the amp, everything worked fine.

It did a pretty nice job. After doing a couple tweaks in the iNuke software post calibration, here's the MBM + sub response:



And the whole system:



Not bad

Sounds good too. It boosted the top end quite a bit compared to my manual tune. It's now pretty flat to 17KHz whereas before there was a somewhat gradual roll off starting around 6KHz. Low end is obviously much smoother.

Some gee whiz facts. Audyssey would generally set the levels of my old Jamo S606 towers to +2.5 dB. It set the 893's to -7.5 dB. The Jamos were rated at 89db/2.83V at 6 ohms, so I was expecting about 5dB difference in levels. 10dB certainly surprised me. So that's pretty cool. Also, it chose a 120Hz crossover for the 893s. Obviously not an issue since I'm crossing them at 200Hz to the MBMs, but would have been annoying if I was trying to cross them to a sub at 60-80Hz.
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post #69 of 100 Old 05-09-2016, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post
I set out yesterday to do a couple measurements then flip the MBMs over to see if the response was any different with the woofer closer to the ground. But I got sidetracked with tuning and Audyssey and other stuff.

Anyway, first up, here's the raw un-EQ'd response of both MBMs together with a 200Hz LPF. I've been running them bridged off one sub out from the receiver so I haven't bothered taking independent left/right measurements yet. All graphs are 1/24 octave resolution, no smoothing, 50 averages around the MLP.



And here's about as flat as I can get them using the iNuke DSP (couple tweaks from previous post):



Here's both full towers with subs. Manual graphic EQ on the 893's, iNuke DSP on the MBMs, no EQ on the subs (with a little bit of tweaking of the sub phase knobs which helped the dip at 70Hz a little):



After that I decided to see what Audyssey XT32 would do with it instead of switching up the orientation of the MBMs. One thing to note, if you plan on running MBMs off a sub out, you'll likely need to set a LPF via an amplifier prior to calibrating. I had just been using the internal crossover of the Denon with no LPF on the amp since I didn't see the need to stack crossovers. But obviously that's all off when calibrating, and I think it confused Audyssey when it heard such a wide range signal coming from the sub. Due to the efficiency of the Magnum 12 higher in the frequency spectrum, Audyssey probably measured the -3 dB point to be at like 100Hz. So I kept getting an ambient noise too high or signal too low error. After setting a LPF in the amp, everything worked fine.

It did a pretty nice job. After doing a couple tweaks in the iNuke software post calibration, here's the MBM + sub response:



And the whole system:



Not bad

Sounds good too. It boosted the top end quite a bit compared to my manual tune. It's now pretty flat to 17KHz whereas before there was a somewhat gradual roll off starting around 6KHz. Low end is obviously much smoother.

Some gee whiz facts. Audyssey would generally set the levels of my old Jamo S606 towers to +2.5 dB. It set the 893's to -7.5 dB. The Jamos were rated at 89db/2.83V at 6 ohms, so I was expecting about 5dB difference in levels. 10dB certainly surprised me. So that's pretty cool. Also, it chose a 120Hz crossover for the 893s. Obviously not an issue since I'm crossing them at 200Hz to the MBMs, but would have been annoying if I was trying to cross them to a sub at 60-80Hz.


Did you ever get back around to flipping the MBM's to see if it made a noticeable difference?

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post #70 of 100 Old 05-11-2016, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever get back around to flipping the MBM's to see if it made a noticeable difference?
Not yet, but it's on the list for this weekend. Much less free time recently.
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post #71 of 100 Old 05-13-2016, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever get back around to flipping the MBM's to see if it made a noticeable difference?
Here it is.



Blue is woofer on bottom, yellow is woofer on top. Basically identical other than the little extra spike at 265Hz.




And here is with the same EQ applied to both. Blue is woofer on bottom, green is woofer on top.





New Vizio P65 too

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post #72 of 100 Old 05-16-2016, 10:01 AM
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Alright, here's a comparison the response with the mids wired out of phase:



Green is in phase, blue is out of phase. So I think they were wired right to begin with, judging by the even lower output at 350-400Hz, as well as the dip at 2KHz at the crossover between the mids and compression driver.

Now what? I did check the location and value of each component of the crossover on these before installing them, so I don't think it's an issue like the one Volt that just had an incorrect component in the kit.
Did you ever figure out what was causing the dip around 400Hz/500Hz then a boost at around 1kHz? I ran REW last night on the first 893 I built and got the same thing. I thought it was room related but after running 4 Volt 6's and seeing a very flat response I figured it was more the speaker's response.
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post #73 of 100 Old 05-16-2016, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Did you ever figure out what was causing the dip around 400Hz/500Hz then a boost at around 1kHz? I ran REW last night on the first 893 I built and got the same thing. I thought it was room related but after running 4 Volt 6's and seeing a very flat response I figured it was more the speaker's response.
Nope. I figure it has to be in the crossover since the raw response of the midrange drivers themselves is pretty flat. @tuxedocivic mentioned he was going to look into it.

Audyssey does what it needs to make them flat. It boosts quite a bit more than I would have expected though. There's a bit of cut around 1KHz but a lot of boosting going on around 500Hz and above 6KHz.
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post #74 of 100 Old 05-16-2016, 12:38 PM
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Sorry i haven't worked with my 893 at all. Ja00, could you post your response?

Ill definitely have a look at what's going on. You guys have me wondering what this could possibly be. I get nothing like that.

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post #75 of 100 Old 05-16-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Sorry i haven't worked with my 893 at all. Ja00, could you post your response?

Ill definitely have a look at what's going on. You guys have me wondering what this could possibly be. I get nothing like that.

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I ran some more tests and it looks like the 500Hz dip is more room related, at least in my case, so I am not worried about it. The 1kHz though is persistent regardless of where I place the speaker in the room and changing orientations. Here's an average curve of 6 or so measurements I took. The 150Hz dip is also room related.



A couple of things to note:
1. I only started using REW yesterday so it may be all possible that I am doing this wrong.
2. I do not have the foam gaskets behind the mids, so they are not flush against the baffle. I wonder if this is causing the problem.
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post #76 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I would think the second point isn't a big deal since they're sealed back mids. Plus they already have a smaller gasket from the factory that should be more than adequate. Other than the peak at 1K your curve looks pretty normal so I don't think you did anything wrong.

The biggest clue for me was when I measured one of the mids by itself with no crossover to be very flat. That curve is posted maybe a page back in this thread. Unless simply mounting it to the baffle causes the dip/peak, it seems to me that it would have to be crossover related. I don't know a whole lot about passive crossover design so I can't be sure at this point though.
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post #77 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 08:17 AM
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Some other things to consider: Did you move the mic between measurements? The mic's position relative to other things changes response in the same way that moving the speaker does. Did you measure only on-axis? Cabinet noises are generally not directional and their influence can be seen more clearly off-axis. (Obviously, you need both for comparison.)
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post #78 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 08:38 AM
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Could it be caused by diffraction then? I see you have 90 degree corners (baffle edges), I have that as well. Will the rounded corners help with this?

When you measured the mid, were they mounted on the cabinet?

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post #79 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 09:36 AM
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Some other things to consider: Did you move the mic between measurements? The mic's position relative to other things changes response in the same way that moving the speaker does. Did you measure only on-axis? Cabinet noises are generally not directional and their influence can be seen more clearly off-axis. (Obviously, you need both for comparison.)
I did both horizontal and 90 deg orientation, all on axis. Saw differences in higher freq but not so much in the low freq when changing mic positions. When at horizontal, the mic was pointed directly at the speaker. Mic height was adjusted to be the same level as the compression driver for all tests.

Honestly I am not too worried about it, especially since it can be eq'd out. I'm sure even if I don't eq it beforehand, Audyssey will most likely be able to make it flat.
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post #80 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 01:42 PM
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I would think the second point isn't a big deal since they're sealed back mids. Plus they already have a smaller gasket from the factory that should be more than adequate. Other than the peak at 1K your curve looks pretty normal so I don't think you did anything wrong.

The biggest clue for me was when I measured one of the mids by itself with no crossover to be very flat. That curve is posted maybe a page back in this thread. Unless simply mounting it to the baffle causes the dip/peak, it seems to me that it would have to be crossover related. I don't know a whole lot about passive crossover design so I can't be sure at this point though.
The mid is pretty flat when measured without the XO. The box does have a diffraction peak around 800hz. That combined with the XO making the response like a hat leads to a peak at 1khz. What concerns me is the magnitude of the peak. You guys have peaks greater than 5db. I certainly didn't get that. So ill be taking a look at my XO and seeing if something went wrong. Thankfully a peak can be easily eq'ed out, but I'd prefer everybody have the correct response without the eq bandaid. I really dont think that 400hz dip is right. Something seems wrong there but i dont know what it could be.

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post #81 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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All of the measurements I post are at the MLP with the mic being swept around while collecting 50 averages. When I measured the mid it was being held on top of the enclosure, not mounted to it. Not super scientific but I just wanted to see if the same dip and peak were present in the raw response.

FWIW here's the EQ Audyssey did to get the flat curve from a few posts back.



Quite a lot of boosting like I mentioned.
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post #82 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 07:46 PM
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I just got back from measuring mine again. I dont get anything like what has been posted here. I will go over my components one by one to make sure they're all in spec and match the provided XO schematic. Not sure what to think. Im measuring both in room and anechoic and not getting the peak or the dip.

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post #83 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 09:22 PM
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All of the measurements I post are at the MLP with the mic being swept around while collecting 50 averages. When I measured the mid it was being held on top of the enclosure, not mounted to it. Not super scientific but I just wanted to see if the same dip and peak were present in the raw response.

FWIW here's the EQ Audyssey did to get the flat curve from a few posts back.

Quite a lot of boosting like I mentioned.
Curious to see what the response would be like if you had the microphone fixed in one spot at MLP and taking the same 50 sweeps.
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post #84 of 100 Old 05-17-2016, 10:37 PM
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Here's some more sweeps I ran today.


Blue is mids without XO mounted in baffle
Red is completed speaker without changing drive signal level
Purple is what I got yesterday for the same speaker with the output adjusted to 75dBSPL pink noise. I inverted the speaker today so that may account for the small differences.

If I am reading this correctly, the mids are pretty flat even when mounted in baffle, there may be 2-3dB peak just below 1kHz. The XO should add very little in that area, say another 1-2dB at or just a smidge above 1kHz. So the net should be way less than the >5dB we are seeing.

Is it possible we got more sensitive mids than what was used in the original design?
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post #85 of 100 Old 05-18-2016, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I just got back from measuring mine again. I dont get anything like what has been posted here. I will go over my components one by one to make sure they're all in spec and match the provided XO schematic. Not sure what to think. Im measuring both in room and anechoic and not getting the peak or the dip.
I thought I remembered reading in the development thread that the midrange changed partway through due to availability? Or was that the 1099? Wondering if ja00 is onto something with the thought about our actual midrange drivers being different from yours?

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Curious to see what the response would be like if you had the microphone fixed in one spot at MLP and taking the same 50 sweeps.
I can do that this evening most likely. But since your head has 2 separate ears and you don't sit locked in a vice, I don't find taking measurements and making changes based on one point in space to be of much value which is why I generally sweep the mic around the MLP.
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post #86 of 100 Old 05-18-2016, 06:29 PM
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The mids never changed that I'm aware of. Erich sent me a baffle and mids and they worked. I might be getting some things sent from him here soon so Ill ask him to send me a pair of mids to double check things out. I still plan to check everything in the XO against the schematic as well.

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post #87 of 100 Old 05-18-2016, 06:36 PM
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A quick reminder of what the anechoic response looks like:



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post #88 of 100 Old 05-19-2016, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah so the dip and peak are still in the anechoic response, just very minor compared to what we're seeing in room. That looks like -2dB at 400Hz and +3dB at 920Hz. I wonder why the issues in that octave are so much more pronounced in our measurements. The anechoic curve above 2KHz is almost exactly the same as what I get in my living room. It would make more sense to me if differences were lower in frequency but I wouldn't expect much room interference up near 1KHz.

Could you post an in-room response for comparison?
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post #89 of 100 Old 05-19-2016, 12:12 PM
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Ill get an in room response soon.

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post #90 of 100 Old 05-19-2016, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strakele View Post
I thought I remembered reading in the development thread that the midrange changed partway through due to availability? Or was that the 1099?
The midranges on the 1099 went from the neo magnet buyouts to the ferrite after the first or second preorder maybe 2 years ago.

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