MBM-12 First Observations and Question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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MBM-12 First Observations and Question

I just finished a pair of MBM-12's from Erich. Built them in 2.25 cubic foot enclosures with two 10" ports in each. They are situated on each side of the TV in cabinets about 6 feet apart. I had an existing VS-18.1 underneath the TV. I powered them up today with a Dayton SA1000 amplifier and listened to them, comparing them against the 18" vented from Chase. While I love the extension of the Chase sub and the volume it can produce in my 3600 cubic foot room, the bass in the 65-100hz range has never been that punchy. My mains are 12" tannoy dual concentrics built in good size ported boxes, receiver is an Anthem with ARC engaged. The MBM-12's, which I believe are tuned around 38hz or so, absolutely slam in the kick drum region. I have been a drummer for about 25 years, played in a larger scale cover act for 10, and produced and recorded quite a bit in my home studio over the years, so I am quite focused on how drums are reproduced in the system.


My first impression is that these sound punchy and wonderful. I cranked up a few concert blurays at lunch, and the kick drum/bass guitar sounds fabulous. Drum mixes I questioned before (Noel Gallager at O2, for example), sound much better. The 18" chase has a really nice response for HT between 20-35 hz, but even with EQ I wasn't getting the sound I was after. Problem solved! Highest recommendation thus far.
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post #2 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 04:45 PM
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How do you have them integrated? Sharing subwoofer channel?


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post #3 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the real issue though: how can I integrate the MBM's into my system? I'd rather not switch back and forth between music and HT systems with different subs. The tannoys are -3dB at 60hz. I have them crossed over at 80hz. Ideally, I would like the Chase to cover 17-40hz, the MBM's to cover 40-100hz, and the tannoys to catch the rest. Here are my ideas, thoughts welcomed.


1) Buy a miniDSP 2x4 and two 2 channel amps. Run the tannoys as "large" 3 ways in the system. Keep the 18" vented on LFE duty.
2) Run the MBM-12's with the 18" vented both on sub duty, but use a Mini DSP or DSP amp as a crossover to limit frequency overlap. Would lose stereo bass as compared to 1, above, to the extent that even exists under 100hz.
3) the cheapest idea thus far was to get a second SA1000 sub amp (which has a crossover) at $340, install passive crossovers on the tannoys at 100hz, and run the Anthem's pre outs to the 2nd SA1000 for mono bass in a quasi 3 way.
4) Ive tried running all subs together of the SA1000, but I don't think that's a great plan because the frequency plots aren't the same....


The biggest question is whether to try to integrate them as subs, or use them to create a 3 way with my existing 2 way concentric mains.


Thoughts?

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post #4 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I can run them all of one SA1000, but I was just running the MBM's alone for purposes of the early evaluation. It didn't sound bad running all 3 subs at once, though the bass was a bit muddy from 60-80hz. See my other response regarding thoughts on integration.


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How do you have them integrated? Sharing subwoofer channel?


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post #5 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 05:01 PM
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It gets complicated that's for certain. Have you tried raising your crossover?


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post #6 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 05:04 PM
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What about a couple of nu3000dsp's? You could use it to power the tanoys and the mbm's. Then you could use the dsp in the inuke to mess with crossover and other room correction as needed.


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post #7 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought about that. Though admittedly Behringer has improved of late, I'm still leery of the brand. I've also read some complaints about the shrill high end, not sure if those have any substance. Are those complaints legit? Is the fan mod easy? I love the idea of having a parametric to use.


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What about a couple of nu3000dsp's? You could use it to power the tanoys and the mbm's. Then you could use the dsp in the inuke to mess with crossover and other room correction as needed.


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post #8 of 18 Old 03-24-2016, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to mess around with 120 later tonight. That's as high as the Anthem goes, if I recall right. Certainly with external crossover in a 3 way, you could go as high as 200-250 I bet. The tannoys have a 12" woofer, so I've got fine extension above 100hz.


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It gets complicated that's for certain. Have you tried raising your crossover?


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post #9 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 10:38 AM
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Kind of depends on what you like. If you run them too hot the higher crossover can make things sound weird. The inuke fan is loud, but I keep mine in a closet so I haven't modded. I'm not familiar with the anthem. Does it power your mains or do you have external amplification?


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post #10 of 18 Old 03-25-2016, 11:50 AM
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Glad to see you're liking them - your review sounds like they do exactly what I'm wanting mine to do.

I'm also considering the integration aspect and these are my ideas, in order of preference based on ease and cost:

1. Set AVR crossover to 40Hz, run speaker outs to the speakers, then preouts to iNuke 1000DSP for high/low pass crossovers for the MBM's. Only flaw here is speakers and MBM will both be playing the 40-150Hz region, though the speakers will be naturally rolling off at 80Hz. Might work, might not. In my other audio experience a bit of overlap isn't as big a deal as some people make it out to be and can be beneficial at times. The speakers will have to be able to handle the lower crossover though. There's also the possibility of doing some low frequency EQ cuts in the receiver to help the speakers then "add it back" via boost in the iNuke EQ, or adding some passive components to create a 120-150Hz high pass for the speakers.

2. Set AVR crossover to around 120Hz, Sub 1 out to iNuke with 40Hz high pass for MBM, Sub 2 out to subs then turn onboard subwoofer low pass down to 40Hz. No more stereo midbass, but like you said, there isn't a whole lot of it to begin with. Also gives the MBMs a good share of the LFE signal. Means I'm back to one channel of true subwoofer processing, but with some phase adjustment that shouldn't be too big of an issue.

3. Mini DSP with dedicated amp channels for each speaker and MBM. Most flexible, most expensive. Would like to avoid this option if possible.

Interested to see which direction you go.
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post #11 of 18 Old 03-26-2016, 09:15 AM
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I feel the easiest way to use the MBM's to get the best results is to run both MBM's and the subwoofers off the subwoofer/LFE channel with some sort of DSP to integrate/crossover the subs and MBM's so they work well together. You can change the crossover to the speakers to whatever you want, move it up higher to let the MBM's cover more midbass or leave it as is.

The issue when trying to use the AVR speaker output for the mains and the pre out for the MBM's is that there is no independent delay adjustment for the speakers (the side that will likely need the extra delay) so ideal integration between the two will be hard to achieve.
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post #12 of 18 Old 03-26-2016, 10:37 AM
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Good point. Delay in the mbm relative to the speakers due to the processing in the amp was also a concern I had.
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post #13 of 18 Old 03-27-2016, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I feel the easiest way to use the MBM's to get the best results is to run both MBM's and the subwoofers off the subwoofer/LFE channel with some sort of DSP to integrate/crossover the subs and MBM's so they work well together. You can change the crossover to the speakers to whatever you want, move it up higher to let the MBM's cover more midbass or leave it as is.

The issue when trying to use the AVR speaker output for the mains and the pre out for the MBM's is that there is no independent delay adjustment for the speakers (the side that will likely need the extra delay) so ideal integration between the two will be hard to achieve.
I am just about to pull the trigger on a pair of MBM's. I am confused on connecting them now. I originally thought the way to connect them was to take the pre-amp out from the AVR from the Left and Right Channel to their own inuke 3000dps then filter 80-150hz to the MBM and then 150hz up to my front speaker (1099). Your suggesting using the LFE channel as the splitting point instead of the Front Left and Right channels?

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1099, Volt 6, Volt 6 Atmos builds
MBM 12s Build
Pair of Mini-Marty's with Dayton UM18-22
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post #14 of 18 Old 03-27-2016, 11:58 PM
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I've also been salivating over a pair of flex12's..

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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
The issue when trying to use the AVR speaker output for the mains and the pre out for the MBM's is that there is no independent delay adjustment for the speakers (the side that will likely need the extra delay) so ideal integration between the two will be hard to achieve.
So I was looking into solutions for integration of a second set of speakers, for me specificly [computer source], all this trouble with preamps and preouts why isn't there a 2 in/4 out on sweetwater.. then I thought what if I just got another usb dac like a behringer uca202? Tonight I grabbed another avr from the basement and used my PCs optical, found out I could play 2 sources simultaneous w/ Voicemeeter and EQ/Delay them seperately w/ equalizer apo but I wasn't sure how to align them or if they needed alignment. Is there a test I could do w/ this umik-1 I've been playing with? Even if I don't go that 2usb dac route I guess an avr with preouts wont solve this problem?
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post #15 of 18 Old 03-28-2016, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmithny06 View Post
I am just about to pull the trigger on a pair of MBM's. I am confused on connecting them now. I originally thought the way to connect them was to take the pre-amp out from the AVR from the Left and Right Channel to their own inuke 3000dps then filter 80-150hz to the MBM and then 150hz up to my front speaker (1099). Your suggesting using the LFE channel as the splitting point instead of the Front Left and Right channels?
If you are using external amps with DSP built in like the iNuke DSP or an external DSP before the amps to split the preout signal between the speakers and MBM's then that will work correctly as it allows you to adjust delay and crossover slopes of both the MBM and main speakers independently.

When powering the speakers by the AVR's internal amplification and running the L/C/R preout to the amps for the MBM's you are only able to adjust delay and crossover on the MBM's (assuming you are using some kind of DSP in the MBM amp or external before the MBM amp). That is where the issues arises because you often need delay on the highpass side of a crossover to get things to integrate correctly (in this case the speakers where you are unable to do any of those functions).
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post #16 of 18 Old 03-29-2016, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
If you are using external amps with DSP built in like the iNuke DSP or an external DSP before the amps to split the preout signal between the speakers and MBM's then that will work correctly as it allows you to adjust delay and crossover slopes of both the MBM and main speakers independently.



When powering the speakers by the AVR's internal amplification and running the L/C/R preout to the amps for the MBM's you are only able to adjust delay and crossover on the MBM's (assuming you are using some kind of DSP in the MBM amp or external before the MBM amp). That is where the issues arises because you often need delay on the highpass side of a crossover to get things to integrate correctly (in this case the speakers where you are unable to do any of those functions).


That explains it. Thanks

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post #17 of 18 Old 03-31-2016, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Update: I ordered a XLS-1502 to power the MBM's. I am going to run both the MBM's and sub on a Y-cable on my sub out and use the bandpass filtering on the XLS-1502 to limit the MBM's to the 40-100hz (or possibly 120hz based on experiments with speakers and beers) range and use my sub crossover on the sub amp set at 40hz low pass. That should really give me what I want in terms of being able pump the MBM's for music listening if I want, reduce the sub bass, etc. Once I get the levels close to even, I'll run ARC or REW and see where I'm at in terms of a plot. So far, the MBM's have a fantastic punch when listening to well-recorded drums, among other percussive instruments. I'm still in my 30's, but love Toto's Falling In Between Live as a reference bluray. Simon's drum solo sounds unreal in terms of the tight punch the MBM's provide from 60-80hz. Kick drum and floor toms sound killer. It probably also doesn't hurt that the MBM's are at floor level, whereas my mains are almost 4 feet high and some of the 60-80hz range was being lost. I'll update once again once I get the setup in place.
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post #18 of 18 Old 04-05-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
If you are using external amps with DSP built in like the iNuke DSP or an external DSP before the amps to split the preout signal between the speakers and MBM's then that will work correctly as it allows you to adjust delay and crossover slopes of both the MBM and main speakers independently.

When powering the speakers by the AVR's internal amplification and running the L/C/R preout to the amps for the MBM's you are only able to adjust delay and crossover on the MBM's (assuming you are using some kind of DSP in the MBM amp or external before the MBM amp). That is where the issues arises because you often need delay on the highpass side of a crossover to get things to integrate correctly (in this case the speakers where you are unable to do any of those functions).
Ok, so not that crazy considering what gets thrown around here but have a question about my setup

Current
LCR = fusion 8s, SL/SR = volt 6. Currently two JL w7s that just aren't cutting it, simply too small to keep up
Denon 2310ci, multi channel in, no preouts
computer with equalizer APO currently HDMI to receiver

Proposed
computer via USB to u-dac8
SL/SR to denon via multi in, denon powers them
L+R to miniDSP 2x4, cross over at 250hz (as suggested by @tuxedocivic ), HP L and R to multi in, denon powers 250hz+ on fusion 8s, LP L and R to individual mono block icepower amps for MBM
C to another miniDSP 2x4, cross over at 250hz, HP C to multi in, denon powers 250+ on fusion 8, LP C to individual mono block icepower amp for MBM

SUB (.1) would get added to LCR via equalizer APO

3xMBM Flex 12s tuned to 17/24, each sitting below their respective L C R fusion 8s

Denon essentially in pure mode as all processing done prior to

net new purchases based on what i have: 1x minidsp u-dac8, 2x minidsp 2x4 (~430, about what it would cost me to get a receiver that even has preouts, still would be plagued by some of the issues above) ninja edit: oh, and of course some mbm 12s and wood for boxes. flat packs are too tall, only have 23.5" below screen, would keep same depth as flex 12 for the port considerations, just add in additional volume to the width

Please poke holes + additional questions below

have i done too much to avoid some of the pitfalls from above? I have attempted to cut off the time delay issues mentioned above

will the flex 12s make it up to 250hz?

SL\SR below 80hz (when the volts roll off) would essentially be lost, i doubt there is much down there that i need?

do i still really need a sub for 15-30, or will room gain + having used 3xMBM be enough bass. not a super bass head, but want something that can reach deep when called upon

thanks for taking the time!

Last edited by datrumole; 04-05-2016 at 05:33 PM.
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