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post #1 of 16 Old 11-19-2017, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Need a little help with SVS Ultra speakers

Hello,

I own the SVS Ultra 5.1 speakers with PB2000 subwoofer for some time now. (2 years Approx.). Installed them in my small dedicated HT room (16 feet x 11 feet x 8.5 feet). Recently i went ahead with twelve DIY 4'x2', Roxul Rockwool 100kg/m3 ,acoustic panels. Also did ceiling treatment with 2'x2' perforated tiles with a backing of Roxul Rockwool 48kg/m3.The floor is covered with a heavy carpet.There are also a lot of cutains inside the room.

Earlier my Left, center and right speakers were behind my big 120 inch non-acoustically transparent screen. A friend suggested to install a small screen and remove the hinderence the screen was posing to the speakers. Now the small screen is behind the speakers and i have positioned the speakers somewhat close to the listening position and now they seem to be optimally placed as far as their placement is concerned.

THE PROBLEM:- Now after acoustic treatment there is a lot of harshness in the overall system sound. The tweeters draw a lot of my attention towards them.The harshness seems to be associated with loud scenes and certain high frequency movie scenes.

I have turned down the treble to -6db to in an attempt to remove some of this harshness.

Is this harshness due to the SVS Ultra's aluminum dome tweeter?

Or There is something wrong with the acoustic treatment?

I did put acoustic foam on the panels to tame some of the harshness.

(The pic of my room is also attached )

Please help me with this.

Thanks in advance
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Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #2 of 16 Old 11-20-2017, 07:18 AM
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Do you have a dB meter or an i-phone (there is a dB meter app). Might be good to see how loud your volume is where you are getting too much HF and it sounds harsh. Did you rerun the YPAO on the yamaha? It may have boosted the tweeters when they were behind the screen and now they are not blocked.
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post #3 of 16 Old 11-20-2017, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Shenefelt View Post
Do you have a dB meter or an i-phone (there is a dB meter app). Might be good to see how loud your volume is where you are getting too much HF and it sounds harsh. Did you rerun the YPAO on the yamaha? It may have boosted the tweeters when they were behind the screen and now they are not blocked.
I did run the YPAO after acoustic panel installation. It may be that all the mids and some of the low's are being absorbed and high's are only being reflected , leading to large boosting of the high's. Seems like the panels and ceiling is doing nothing for the high frequency absorption.

Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #4 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 05:00 AM
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I doubt that the ceiling tile is impacting mids and lows very much. It should cut down on highs. Remember, a 3 dB cut (half the power) is just audible. Call SVS and see what they say. I have found them quite helpful. Again do you have an iPhone or android that you can get a dB meter app for and measure the sound pressure levels where you find the problem? If not get the app or get a little radio shack meter for under $20 on ebay. It can be useful. If super loud maybe you are over driving the speakers. A little aluminum dome tweeter is not a compression drive designed for super high volumes. The 3050 should be pretty good and not be clipping but I cannot say if you do not know the actual dB levels. The front speakers are more forward than they were unless you moved the screen back, not just smaller. The change from behind where the screen is now shown to beside the screen is a MAJOR factor in high frequency level. They may be closer in addition to not being blocked by the screen. Other than cutting echo reflection I cannot see your sound volume drastically being impacted by ceiling tile or side acoustic panels. Should be a lot better though in terms of no echo with some muffling of highs.

I had a Yamaha 3050 and it seemed more than adequate on front channel amplification so I doubt it is clipping unless you are getting up into the +105 dB range of volume on non pure bass effects. I think the SVS are reasonably efficient. For normal dialogue (not loud passages of special effects) anything over about 80 dB (a setting on the Anthem of -20 dB) is irritating to me. Try to get a measurement of actual at seat dB volume. What "dB level" of the Yamaha volume control are you at when it is harsh? On my new Anthem receiver anything over about -20dB on the volume dial is getting pretty loud at the special effects noises. At -5dB on my Anthem high frequency on "The Accountant" gunshots on the farm can reach 115 dB on low frequency special effects. and the high frequency "crack" on one shot can almost cut you in half. Comes across at live level right next to a rifle. My high frequency JBL compression drivers are built for loud though. They can take 15 watts (and do not due to the crossover) but at a couple of watts directly to them you would not stay in the room. Usually small dome tweeters are not capable of super high levels of sound. Find out what you are "asking" them to do (How loud METERED is it when they are harsh), then call SVS.
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post #5 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 06:57 AM
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Generally enthusiasts experience the opposite problem after room treatments - the highs are a bit muted and mellow. This of course makes the system quite listenable at louder levels with less fatigue. First time I've read the highs were harsher after treatments. I suspect it's YPAO overcompensating for the treatments with some treble lift on the EQ. I would check to see if YPAO has some equivalent setting to Audyssey Reference (as opposed to Audyssey Flat). Audyssey Reference rolls of the highs a bit in comparison to Flat (which extends the response flat to 20+ kHz). You might also want to try simply temporarily disabling YPAO entirely to see if the highs calm down.
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post #6 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 07:06 AM
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i found when i set up my ultra towers that i could not toe them in like i did my old DT8040s. Those I had to aim the tweeters directly at my head because they had a very narrow zone of good sound and a dramatic change off axis.

When i did that with the ultra towers, the sound was really really bright and fatiguing and i wasn't enjoying them much for a few weeks. So i toed them in less...a straight line from the tweeter now goes maybe 1-2 feet on either side of my head. It fixed my problem.

You might not have noticed the brightness when the speakers were behind the screen -- they are bright speakers.

Worth a try anyway.

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post #7 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Shenefelt View Post
The change from behind where the screen is now shown to beside the screen is a MAJOR factor in high frequency level.

What "dB level" of the Yamaha volume control are you at when it is harsh?
Dear Shenefelt,

Yes , moving the screen behind the speakers lead to an immediate and noticeable change in overall sound signature of the left, center and right speaker front soundstage.

Actually we tested this a numerous times, whenever friends came visiting for a movie together. Thats why i took the decision to see what will be overall sound now. Apart from that i did the acoustic panel treatment and ceiling tiles the same time.

I am only using Yamaha RX-V3050 at -5 db to -14 db's. Treble at -4.0db and bass at +2.5db. PEQ at "natural".

Harshness seems to crept in as i move from -14db to roughly -8db , with maximun harshness at -5db.

Thanks

Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #8 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post
Generally enthusiasts experience the opposite problem after room treatments - the highs are a bit muted and mellow. This of course makes the system quite listenable at louder levels with less fatigue. First time I've read the highs were harsher after treatments. I suspect it's YPAO overcompensating for the treatments with some treble lift on the EQ. I would check to see if YPAO has some equivalent setting to Audyssey Reference (as opposed to Audyssey Flat). Audyssey Reference rolls of the highs a bit in comparison to Flat (which extends the response flat to 20+ kHz). You might also want to try simply temporarily disabling YPAO entirely to see if the highs calm down.
Hello dear Ed Mullen sir,

I am also quite surprised at this phenomena i.e highs getting harsher after treatment.
I have run YPAO a number of times with different placements of the front Left, right and Center speakers.I use the "nautral" PEQ setting which rolls off the high's and somewhat gives a less harsher sound when compared to the "Flat" setting.
The only time the sound sounded a little less harsh was when i removed the toe in and put them in front facing position.

A friend suggested to put some acoustic foam and napkin combo in front of the tweeter in the speaker grill , pics attached.
The result of this is a little more decrease in harshness at high frequencies.
But still i want more control over that.

Sir, is it safe to do that i.e to put some acoustic foam and napkin combo in front of the tweeter , i mean, can this damage the tweeter or is it safe?

Thanks
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post #9 of 16 Old 11-21-2017, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbkillian View Post
When i did that with the ultra towers, the sound was really really bright and fatiguing and i wasn't enjoying them much for a few weeks. So i toed them in less...a straight line from the tweeter now goes maybe 1-2 feet on either side of my head. It fixed my problem.

You might not have noticed the brightness when the speakers were behind the screen -- they are bright speakers.

Worth a try anyway.
Thanks chrisbkillian, i think i'm also facing the same thing with the ultra speakers

Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #10 of 16 Old 11-22-2017, 06:30 AM
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You really need to get either a Radioshack dB meter (under $25 on ebay usually) or a phone app that can measure sound pressure level (SPL) in the room. Use the C weighting on the meter. I have had two of the Radioshack meters over the years but cannot recommend another brand since I never had any other brand. They are pretty accurate within 2 decibels. If you are running the speakers at near 85 decibels on dialogue section of a movie at your listening distance I would expect harshness. at any higher volume. Does the sound hurt your ears if standing within a foot of the speaker? That is probably near 95 dB. Way too loud. The loudness of your speakers is not only dependant on the setting level on yourYamaha receiver it is also dependent on the efficiency of your speakers. What this means to you is that a setting of -6 db B on your volume dial on the Yamaha is only telling you you are getting close to maximum level, not how loud it is in the room.

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post #11 of 16 Old 12-04-2017, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Shenefelt View Post
Do you have a dB meter or an i-phone (there is a dB meter app). Might be good to see how loud your volume is where you are getting too much HF and it sounds harsh. Did you rerun the YPAO on the yamaha? It may have boosted the tweeters when they were behind the screen and now they are not blocked.
Hello Shenefelt,

Thanks for your valuable advice, i measured my dB levels at my listening position with an android app, i don't know how correct it is, but i got a fairly good idea as to what was happening.The dB levels were high at my main Listening position, not a lot high, but enough to cause percieved harshness.
Now i am training my ears to listen at reasonable loud levels.

Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #12 of 16 Old 12-04-2017, 08:54 PM
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My iphone app is about 3 db different from my little radio shack app. There is more of a variation in instant levels than between the meters. Usually for a movie, voice is around the 60 to 75 dB range and strong special effects maybe going up into the 90's with a lot of speaker power to go much over 100 dB in anything other than subwoofer sound. Speaker levels other than subwoofer are rarely over 100 dB from what I have listened to.
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post #13 of 16 Old 12-04-2017, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Shenefelt View Post
My iphone app is about 3 db different from my little radio shack app. There is more of a variation in instant levels than between the meters. Usually for a movie, voice is around the 60 to 75 dB range and strong special effects maybe going up into the 90's with a lot of speaker power to go much over 100 dB in anything other than subwoofer sound. Speaker levels other than subwoofer are rarely over 100 dB from what I have listened to.
.
Yeah, during quiet scenes i am getting around 60 to 72 dB's and during strong special effects i get around 75-81 db's. and i adjust the receivers volume level to maintain these db levels for all the movies i watch.

There are a few strange phenomena that i observed and i want to share:

First, whenever i used my HTPC the sound was never harsh. All the harshness came when i watched movies via my Marantz UD7007 bluray disc player.

Secondly, i tried various HDMI cables, i could atually hear the whole sound signature change, which i never noticed earlier.

Strange but true.

Sony 55A8F OLED TV, Sony X900E LCD TV, Yamaha RX-A3050 reciever, Epson 5300 1080p projector, SVS Ultra Tower Surround Sound 7.1.2 system, SVS PB2000 Subwoofer, SVS SB1000 Subwoofer, Marantz UD7007 Universal Disc Player, LG UP970 UHD Player, Braun 16:9 projector screen.
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post #14 of 16 Old 12-05-2017, 03:15 AM
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Have you tried listening to the marantz on headphones to the marantz feed to your receiver through the audio out rca jacks.? That could rule out any hdmi cable problem. Maybe it is the speakers? That disk player is very decent. I have an older Marantz SA8004 cd player that was a high quality unit back a while and it seems fine. CD not dvd or video of any kind but good digital and analogue outs and decent sound. Your level is a little high but should not be too high to be listenable. Your volume level is not one that should overtax anything. I am usually in the lower 60's for dialogue and under 8o for most non hot sound effects. I get up into the 80's and 90's on some loud movie scenes and if pushed can get up into the 100 to 105 dB on peaks. How hot is the sound when you get it up into the 80's on non bass stuff that is loud? Maybe check back with SVS to see what the speakers should do on the top end. Back to the aluminum dome tweeters. I kind of like that type since all my treble at home (except my atmos) are aluminum diaphragm or titanium diaphragm compression drivers. They can push out 106 dB per watt at a meter so usually run in the milliwatt range. A guy who did some car installation for me hated the metal dome tweeters but they never bothered me. See what SVS says the dome tweeters can take in power or dB volume. Maybe you are one who is super sensitive to the treble end and the speakers are just not for you. Personally my ears are bad is some of the treble region and I cannot stand infinity car speakers.
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post #15 of 16 Old 04-10-2019, 06:13 AM
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I have a similar setup . using a Yamaha 3050 the harshness to me comes from the upper mid range . the ypao doesn't do a very good job imho . what ive done to rid this , for music I turn DRC off . I use custom eq settings , main culprits seem to be in the 1.00KHz ,2.00KHz and 2.52KHz ranges . mine are -3.5 , -3 and -2.5 next is the 8.00KHz set -3 . first 3 are 78.7Hz -1.5 , 78.7HZ -1.0 and 396.8Hz +2 . your room ect is surely different then mine but this works well for me and my room is full of hard surfaces and 24'x24' ! im also using a single sb 2000 . give it a try , cant hurt ! I also have a set of Paradigm studio 60's that ive used very similar eq settings for or the brightness/harshness will annoy you the death !

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post #16 of 16 Old 04-10-2019, 06:58 AM
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treatment placememt

I am no expert but did you check the placement of your treatments with a mirror after you moved your speakers. they look from the pic that there missing the first reflection point. hard to tell from the angle of the pic. I find the ultras on the bright side as well.

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