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post #2581 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bryan_CoxPHX View Post

For some reason the WD Green drives do not record/play well (ie. many glitches) when used as an eSATA external HDD combined with an SA/Cisco DVR. Let us know how your Green AV HDD works with the Moxi.

Apparently, the Western Digital Green Drive fluctuates the spin speed in order to save power ("IntelliSpin"). So, while the Seagate drives that come with the Moxi spin at a constant 7200 RPM, will the WD Green Drives do the same if installed inside a Moxi? And if the WD Green Drive doesn't spin at 7200 RPM always if inside a Moxi, would that even negatively affect the Moxi?
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post #2582 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by geodon005 View Post

Sourball:

here is the reply I received fromMoxi's Customer Care on this issue:

The HDCP service, for copyright protection reasons, disables the component and composite outputs for video. Audio however can still be output.

If you wish to back up to a DVD for educational purposes, you only need to connect the Moxi to the inputs on the DVD recorder, then connect the DVD player's outputs to the TV, so the DVD recorder will act as a pass-through device recording everything you watch on the DVR. You shouldn't need to connect the DVR directly to the TV when connecting it this way.

Please note that some DVD recorders recognize Macrovision flagging for content protection, so you might not be able to record certain/any programs.


I am going to try simply removing my HDMI connection from the Moxi and run component cables from it to my DVD recorder along with a digital coax audio cable and see what happens.

Geodon005

Thank you very much, you explained this better then the answer I received from the MOXI customer care person I got when I inquired via their email support.

I'm not using HDMI, with this particular TV, for some reason, video has always played better using the RGB hookup. I do however use HDMI with the Blu Ray player. It has video adjustments in player that along with TV video adjustments gets a superior picture, but I need both device adjustments to achieve it.

From what I'm understanding from you is that the extra component Video OUT located on the MOXI can't be also hooked up at same time and is disabled and therefore can't be used when MOXI is hooked up directly to TV. So to use DVD recorder I need to disconnect RGB from TV and reconnect directly to DVD recorder on the occasions I'd like to DVD record something. Okay I can do that. Although I think it's strange and at the very least annoying that MOXI can't handle this like every other Cable DVR box I've ever used over the past years. I've always been able to use the extra video OUT to run programming into the DVD recorder. Anyhow, Thanks again.
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post #2583 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by marcInNH View Post

When I tried this the other night I immediately saw that the score of the hockey game had changed before I got to the see the goal...

Haha, we have the same application in mind here... BTW, Let's Go Pens!!! I've gotten fairly decent at being able to block the score with my hand while I rewind when I screw up on the Comcast DVR.

I'm not sure I agree that nothing else needs to change, although I'm still not entirely clear on how it works now. It sounds like the "jump" button is usually "swap tuners" unless there is only one free tuner, in which case it becomes a "previous channel" button. Is that accurate? Does that mean in general there is no "previous channel" button? What does it do on the 3T box, cycle between all 3 tuners? If that's how it works, one bad implication seems to be the "Jump" button may or may not dump the buffer depending on what else the box is doing.

Regardless, what you suggested (remembering pause state and position per-buffer [and probably per-box in to account for mates]) certainly sounds like a beneficial change and would probably go a long way towards solving the problem.
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post #2584 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by marcInNH View Post

Count me as one who agrees about the PIP angle. I like that feature a lot. Eliminating a major function like PIP is quite different, IMO, from not supporting it in the first place. I'd be very upset if I purchased a solution that supported it and then it was later removed (via software upgrade more so than a hardware update - I just wouldn't buy the newer hardware if it didn't suit my needs).

I guess in the final analysis most people view their own requirements/desires as the critical ones. Kind of human nature...

Again, though, the original point I was making about pause not being supported when switching between channels doesn't really relate directly to the more complex topic of buffer management (at least, it *need* not in a simple implementation). None of the existing buffer management would need to change. Alongside the existing buffer state would be a new piece of state that indicated a previous pause offset within the buffer (or not)...

Regarding the whole buffering issue FWIW, I thought I’d add my 2¢. One must keep in mind one of the major features of the Moxi. That is its streaming capability. Think of it as ownership of the tuner and its cognate buffer. Each device in the Moxi environment can “own” only a single channel/buffer which is the combo that is currently being viewed (or recorded). Once you switch to another tuner, you give up the previous tuner/buffer combo for use by another device within the network. Therefore, maintaining a pointer to indicate when channel was switched becomes irrelevant. Nevertheless, I agree that it is fairly easy to accommodate the feature of maintaining a pointer in a previously switched buffer however this adds to the logical complexity of switching. Which is why, I suggest that Moxi took the simpler path.

The logic might look like the following:
  1. Press Jump button (This would require that “jumping” is not simply switching the currently viewed tuner’s channel but to move to the second tuner/buffer combo)
  2. Has channel/buffer been accessed by another device (eg. Mate)? Yes/No
  3. If Yes, then Do you want to bump the device? Yes/No (Keep in mind that if the tuner/buffer was accessed by another device, then the issue of a pointer becomes irrelevant; previous buffer is lost.)
  4. If #2 is No, then do you want to pick up pointer? Yes/No
  5. If Yes, go to pointer
  6. If No, go to Live TV

See how this complicates matters? I hope this sheds some light on the issue. With self-enclosed DVR such as what the cable companies provide “ownership” of the tuner is irrelevant. I’ll amend this post with a logic diagram later this evening.

Don't you just wish HDMI would crawl off to some darkened corner and die a sad, lonely death?
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post #2585 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sourball View Post

Is there anything in MOXI's 3 tuner configuration that would prevent using the OUT component video connection to the IN of DVD/VCR recorder and block video from being sent to DVD/VCR recorder? I can't get video from MOXI OUT to other devices' IN's, although I can send audio from MOXI OUT to other devices. I've changed video wires without success. I have tested with other device over this same connection (Play Station 2 and a DVD player) and the video comes through just as it should. Could MOXI have a bad video out connection, could the FIOS Cablecard or something else be disabling or interfering with the Video connection? I'm stumped. Any suggestions?

Thanks

IIRC, you cannot use the Moxi's HDMI output and its component output at the same time. Are you using HDMI to your TV? If so, disconnect the HDMI cable from your Moxi, reboot your Moxi, and I bet your component video now is OK.
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post #2586 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by marcInNH View Post

Count me as one who agrees about the PIP angle. I like that feature a lot. Eliminating a major function like PIP is quite different, IMO, from not supporting it in the first place. I'd be very upset if I purchased a solution that supported it and then it was later removed (via software upgrade more so than a hardware update - I just wouldn't buy the newer hardware if it didn't suit my needs).

I guess in the final analysis most people view their own requirements/desires as the critical ones. Kind of human nature...

Again, though, the original point I was making about pause not being supported when switching between channels doesn't really relate directly to the more complex topic of buffer management (at least, it *need* not in a simple implementation). None of the existing buffer management would need to change. Alongside the existing buffer state would be a new piece of state that indicated a previous pause offset within the buffer (or not)...

Regarding the whole buffering issue FWIW, I thought I’d add my 2¢. One must keep in mind one of the major features of the Moxi. That is its streaming capability. Think of it as ownership of the tuner and its cognate buffer. Each device in the Moxi environment can “own” only a single channel/buffer which is the combo that is currently being viewed (or recorded). Once you switch to another tuner, you give up the previous tuner/buffer combo for use by another device within the network. Therefore, maintaining a pointer to indicate when channel was switched becomes irrelevant. Nevertheless, I agree that it is fairly easy to accommodate the feature of maintaining a pointer in a previously switched buffer however this adds to the logical complexity of switching. Which is why, I suggest that Moxi took the simpler path.

The logic might look like the following:
  1. Press Jump button (This would require that “jumping” is not simply switching the currently viewed tuner’s channel but to move to the second tuner/buffer combo)
  2. Has channel/buffer been accessed by another device (eg. Mate)? Yes/No
  3. If Yes, then Do you want to bump the device? Yes/No (Keep in mind that if the tuner/buffer was accessed by another device, then the issue of a pointer becomes irrelevant; previous buffer is lost.)
  4. If #2 is No, then do you want to pick up pointer? Yes/No
  5. If Yes, go to pointer
  6. If No, go to Live TV

See how this complicates matters? I hope this sheds some light on the issue. With a self-contained DVR such as what the cable companies provide “ownership” of the tuner is irrelevant. I’ll amend this post with a logic diagram later this evening.

Don't you just wish HDMI would crawl off to some darkened corner and die a sad, lonely death?
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post #2587 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

My biggest concern is the reports of all recordings being lost. That is completely unacceptable in all circumstances short of catastrophic hardware failure.

Having been a ReplayTV user (we have five) for nearly a decade now, it is a real bummer to lose recorded shows -- it's happened to me several times over the years, most recently a little over a month or so ago.

With the RTVs, though, one can move recorded shows off the unit to another hard drive where you can easily make backups while not losing the ability to stream the shows back to the RTVs for multi-room viewing or to burn to DVD. I used to burn a lot of stuff to DVD, but I've basically abandoned that process except for stuff I want to take when I travel. I have a huge video collection stored -- and backed up -- that way, and I'll really miss that functionality.

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Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Not to mention the general topic is upgrading the internal drive. The whole process with Moxi can be easily likened to what TiVO has already gone through I SERIOUSLY doubt that ever really HURT TiVO and could make an argument that it helped them... dollars to donuts some bought it because it was well know how to do that.

I couldn't agree more: I've replaced/upgraded hard drives, power supplies, etc in our RTVs, something that has kept them going, and going, and going. I wouldn't have kept adding RTV units without that ability because it would have really chapped my hide to spend the money for the units & activations only to lose the unit three months or a year after the warranty was up. After the first time of sending one back for "inexpensive" service (replacing a failed hard drive) and having the unit returned minus power supply screws which I found out when the power supply failed a couple of months later, I'd much rather be able to do simple things like that myself where I know what the quality of the workmanship is.

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Originally Posted by geodon005 View Post

here is the reply I received fromMoxi's Customer Care on this issue:

The HDCP service, for copyright protection reasons, disables the component and composite outputs for video. Audio however can still be output.

If you wish to back up to a DVD for educational purposes, you only need to connect the Moxi to the inputs on the DVD recorder, then connect the DVD player's outputs to the TV, so the DVD recorder will act as a pass-through device recording everything you watch on the DVR. You shouldn't need to connect the DVR directly to the TV when connecting it this way.

Please note that some DVD recorders recognize Macrovision flagging for content protection, so you might not be able to record certain/any programs.

Ahhh . . . I'd not thought of that. We'll be keeping one or two RTVs with lifetime activation in service, so that may be a solution, albeit clunky, for me. It'll be a bummer to lose HD on that stuff, but it's better than nothing, for now.

I have some more questions about the analog dongle, the Guide, and Moxi functionality this time.

How dependent is Moxi on the Guide?

RTVs, of course, are different than Moxis, but our current situation is that 8 days ago, Tribune Media Services erroneously dropped the non-digital channel lineup listings. Since RTV (and Windows Media Center, BTW), use Tribune Media Services for their guides (I hope I'm explaining it correctly), two our our RTVs that are hooked up just to coax are completely crippled: we can get only a fraction of the channels we can get hooking the coax directly to an ancient TV, and we can't record anything even manually.

We're still waiting for the fix, which was promised Saturday and Sunday and Monday and . . .

This isn't the only Guide problem we've run into. I guess TWC in this area frequently plays musical channels on stuff we don't watch, and when there's a channel or Guide update (I don't know which) which are never announced in advance & with no notification afterwards, it wipes out scheduled recordings even on channels which haven't moved until someone notices & I go into Setup to reselect TWC. Very frustrating.

And, getting Guide errors corrected isn't always prompt. The most recent time there was a problem was in January when the guide listed 6 digital & 1 HD channel TWC had dropped and didnt' list a new HD channel. It took almost a month for that error to be corrected. Since the new HD channel wasn't listed in the Guide, the only way we could view it was to bypass the RTV and view through the STB with its Guide.

So, while I've won the purchasing decision discussion, I'd like to better understand how this works with the Moxi -- it's always a better scenario in this house when I'm aware of potential problems in advance so I can mention them in passing to my dh . . . then when something happens and he's ready to play the blame game , I can remind him I told him of the possibility

The analog dongle question really is just more of the above. While we currently have no problem with whatever channels are analog on the RTVs with HD STBs because the "digital lineup" Guide correctly includes those channels, I'm wondering if the analog tuner added by the dongle will experience the same limitations at our RTVs hooked to coax until the Guide is eventually corrected?

If so, it might be better for me to wait until that's corrected, although the bigger part of me is really resenting the heck out of being down two tuners to record. Even if the analog dongle won't work until the analog lineup Guide for this area is fixed, we'd still have six tuners to record digital channels rather than the three (down from five) we're got now that's causing domestic disharmony when we're short places to record.

I'll greatly appreciate any info -- TIA!
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post #2588 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by domino92024 View Post

IIRC, you cannot use the Moxi's HDMI output and its component output at the same time. Are you using HDMI to your TV? If so, disconnect the HDMI cable from your Moxi, reboot your Moxi, and I bet your component video now is OK.

No HDMI being used. Presently RGB component hookup is going from MOXI and out to TV. Would also like to use the extra Video OUT from MOXI and send video to DVD recorder. Apparently can’t be done. MOXI only allows 1 Video feed.
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post #2589 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 03:17 PM
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Hm, my next stumbling block is the network connections. I was hoping to use powerline since I already have a couple Netgear XAV101's, I was hoping I could buy a couple more for $120 and call it a day. But, unfortunately although I get 150+ Mbps (reported by the diag utility) between the adapters where they were, I moved one around to various rooms and saw rates as low as the mid-20's which isn't going to cut it.

I don't think running cat 5 is going to be viable (105 year old, 3 story house, plaster walls, etc), so I guess I'll probably try MoCA. Any advice there? I'm leaning towards the Actiontec because they all seem to be basically the same hardware and it's the cheapest - especially considering I need 3 and they're the only ones that seem to sell singles.
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post #2590 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sslund View Post

How dependent is Moxi on the Guide?

Moxi is 100% dependent on the guide. When Comcast upgraded my system and added about 30 new HD channels, the Moxi could tune in the channels but couldn't record any of them. I waited patiently for 5 days for the guide to populate on its' own, but it never happened. I had to contact Moxi support to get the ball rolling. It took about 2 days from the time I contacted Moxi until the new channels were added.

What is even more annoying to me is that the guide data for many of my local stations is often wrong. The shows themselves are listed in the correct timeslot, but the episode details are incomplete or incorrect. This causes huge problems for series recordings because of the dopey 30 day rule. It is constantly incorrectly flagging shows I have not recorded yet as duplicates, and every night I have to manually go and force the Moxi to record them. If Moxi is going to supply us with shoddy guide data, the least they could do is give us a "Record All with Duplicates" option like Tivo.
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post #2591 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 04:51 PM
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More on the Moxi Guide dependency issue. I own two ReplayTV's. A fabulous feature of ReplayTV is the ability to set a manual record. You can easily tell Replay the channel and date and time and ReplayTV will record it. No guide necessary at all.

Also, ReplayTV has an auxiliary RCA input jack, and you can manually record from that source no matter what is being fed to it.

Of course, the negative of ReplayTV is that it is a single tuner, analog only. (The only time I ever lost recordings on my ReplayTV is when there was a total crash of the hard drive. I never lost recordings when there was a reset/reboot the way I have twice now with Moxi.)

The Moxi has no ability to manually input a scheduled recording. Should what you want to record not be in the TV Guide, you are out of luck. Plus, if you schedule a recording from the TV Guide and then that TV Guide entry somehow disappears, your scheduled recording disappears as well.
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post #2592 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by midas89 View Post

More on the Moxi Guide dependency issue. I own two ReplayTV's. A fabulous feature of ReplayTV is the ability to set a manual record. You can easily tell Replay the channel and date and time and ReplayTV will record it. No guide necessary at all.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, I believe you are incorrect. RTVs, of course, require activation to work. If you don't have a Guide (which requires activation), you cannot record TV at all. At least, that's what we're experiencing with our two RTVs with Guide issues.

Perhaps you can record from one of the other inputs without the Guide -- I haven't tried -- but unless I'm missing something and the three RTV custmore service agents I've spoken with are mistaken, there isn't a way schedule any TV signal recording or even initiate a manual record without a Guide. Even just hitting the Record button to record one of the limited channels we're getting through the RTV with no Guide won't initiate a record even though it looks like it will. Presumably, it's a form of subscription protection, which I guess would be fine, but it also screws people like me who have valid activation/subscriptions but Guide problems.
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post #2593 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sslund View Post

Unless I'm misunderstanding, I believe you are incorrect. RTVs, of course, require activation to work. If you don't have a Guide (which requires activation), you cannot record TV at all. At least, that's what we're experiencing with our two RTVs with Guide issues.

Perhaps you can record from one of the other inputs without the Guide -- I haven't tried -- but unless I'm missing something and the three RTV custmore service agents I've spoken with are mistaken, there isn't a way schedule any TV signal recording or even initiate a manual record without a Guide. Even just hitting the Record button to record one of the limited channels we're getting through the RTV with no Guide won't initiate a record even though it looks like it will. Presumably, it's a form of subscription protection, which I guess would be fine, but it also screws people like me who have valid activation/subscriptions but Guide problems.

Sslund, if I am wrong, of course I will apologize for being mistaken. And of course, I hope no one else gets upset that we are talking about ReplayTV on a Moxi Forum. (I promise it will stop.)

This is my understanding of ReplayTV. (I have been a ReplayTV owner since the very beginning, many years ago. I currently still use two 5500 series to record non-freeQAM stations since I only use my Moxi with the Free-QAM stations right now.)

Once your ReplayTV has been activated and you have downloaded the initial guide and your analog stations appear, you could theoretically unplug the Ethernet cable and leave it out forever. Every day, ReplayTV will try to connect, and give you a message that it cannot. Of course, eventually the TV Guide will show no data, but the stations will still be there. At this point, you have the option of doing manually scheduled records of just the date and time and channel number in perpetuity.

Now, I must point out that I bought the Lifetime Subscriptions on my ReplayTV's. I do not know if one has the monthly payment plan the software will disable manual scheduling if it cannot call in once a month to see if payment has been made. But for mine, which again show Lifetime Subscription, I can do manual scheduled records based on date and time and channel input only for as long as the hardware lasts...and I would not need the guide updates from the Internet to do this. (As you know, with the Moxi, if you don't get the guide updates from the Internet, you cannot do any recording, etc. That was basically my main point.)
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post #2594 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by midas89 View Post

This is my understanding of ReplayTV. (I have been a ReplayTV owner since the very beginning, many years ago. I currently still use two 5500 series to record non-freeQAM stations since I only use my Moxi with the Free-QAM stations right now.)

Once your ReplayTV has been activated and you have downloaded the initial guide and your analog stations appear, you could theoretically unplug the Ethernet cable and leave it out forever. Every day, ReplayTV will try to connect, and give you a message that it cannot. Of course, eventually the TV Guide will show no data, but the stations will still be there. At this point, you have the option of doing manually scheduled records of just the date and time and channel number in perpetuity.

Now, I must point out that I bought the Lifetime Subscriptions on my ReplayTV's. I do not know if one has the monthly payment plan the software will disable manual scheduling if it cannot call in once a month to see if payment has been made. But for mine, which again show Lifetime Subscription, I can do manual scheduled records based on date and time and channel input only for as long as the hardware lasts...and I would not need the guide updates from the Internet to do this. (As you know, with the Moxi, if you don't get the guide updates from the Internet, you cannot do any recording, etc. That was basically my main point.)

There's been a lot of Tivo discussion here , so I hope a couple of RTV/Moxi discussions will be tolerated.

Again, I don't believe you are correct, and if you are, please explain how you accomplish it. Our two currently Channel Guideless RTVs are a 50xx with monthly activation and a later 55xx with lifetime activation, which is what you have, yes?

On both machines, when I've tried to schedule a manual record without a Channel Guide, it's impossible once you get to the screen where you have to choose a channel. Without a Channel Guide, there are no channels to choose from.

Similarly, when hitting the red Record button, everything looks fine, but nothing in fact records on both units. When going to the Replay Guide, I find Manual Records of less than a minute, which is the expected behavior.

According to DNNA, both of these events are by design, so if you've found a way around it, please share
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post #2595 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by sslund View Post

There's been a lot of Tivo discussion here , so I hope a couple of RTV/Moxi discussions will be tolerated.

Not that I'm the thread police but I think RTV/Moxi comparisons are fine although troubleshooting RTV issues is probably better suited for a new thread (where it's more likely to get attention from other RTV users as well).

Anyways, midas89 - you lost all your recordings twice and had to return your unit twice, and they blamed it on "hard drive problems" both times? That does worry me, definitely. Did you get any further details from them about it? It would be tough to risk voiding warranty in that situation but hooking the drive up to a PC could be enlightening (see what the diags say, scan for bad sectors, etc). Have you had any problems with your 3rd unit?
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post #2596 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 08:00 PM
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If you go into your ReplayTV right now. Menu. Manual Record. You can set ReplayTV to record something for May 10, as one example. And there is no TV Guide entry for May 10 right now, correct? Try it. It works.

The ReplayTV TV Guide doesn't vanish after the two weeks of program listings have passed with the ReplayTV unable to connect to the Web. (Again, I have Lifetime Subscription.)

But also, I had one of my ReplayTV's (lifetime subscription) off the Internet for about 3 weeks. I booted it up without the Ethernet cable plugged in.

My ReplayTV Guide was still there, it had all the channels, but no specific TV show data in the time slots. I was able to both set a manual record by selecting the channel number, date and time...and I was able to connect RCA cable from my Motorola set top box and set ReplayTV to manually record Input One at a set date and time (of course I had to manually tune my Motorola set-top box to the channel I wanted broadcast to the ReplayTV).

I have not tried this in a long time, so maybe something changed. But I assume it will still work.

Seriously, it worked. Again, one must activate the ReplayTV first to get the stations and the TV Guide. One must pay. But once you pay, as long as your stations have not changed, why would the Grid guide listing the stations disappear just because the program listings disappeared? Wouldn't it just have no data in the boxes? Does your station list in the TV Guide vanish after two weeks of ReplayTV not downloading new TV show info?
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post #2597 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Not that I'm the thread police but I think RTV/Moxi comparisons are fine although troubleshooting RTV issues is probably better suited for a new thread (where it's more likely to get attention from other RTV users as well).

Anyways, midas89 - you lost all your recordings twice and had to return your unit twice, and they blamed it on "hard drive problems" both times? That does worry me, definitely. Did you get any further details from them about it? It would be tough to risk voiding warranty in that situation but hooking the drive up to a PC could be enlightening (see what the diags say, scan for bad sectors, etc). Have you had any problems with your 3rd unit?

Todd, sorry again about the ReplayTV stuff. Please forgive me.

As you know, since Feb., 2010, I have owned 3 three-tuner Moxis. The first two had bad hard drives, as confirmed by Moxi. They never told me anything more than the drives are bad. They replaced the first two models. (I lost programs, as you know.)

I still have the third Moxi and yes I am experiencing problems. I have not lost data, though. I get pixelation. I get skipped scenes. I also get bad time counts on the bottom bar often. It usually corrects itself. I have also gotten lost channel identifiers in the Grid guide. And I have had to reboot the device a couple of times.

Everything above is tolerable, but I try to watch the recorded shows a quickly as possible.

The problems in my first two units were way worse, obviously.

My feeling is that I do have some kind of hard drive issue in the third Moxi, but it's not too serious. No crashes like in my first two.

Please know that from November through Feb., I owned and used a two-tuner Moxi with no problems whatsoever. It ran like a dream.

And yes, I know that there are people who have three-tuner Moxi's with no hard drive issues.

Please know that I have two ReplayTV's with no issues whatsoever. So, it is not my cable system. And again, Moxi ran the logs and determined my problem was real. Plus, when you lose recorded shows after a freeze and crash and reboot, and it takes over 10 minutes to boot, you can bet your butt you have a hard drive failure somewhere.
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post #2598 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 08:22 PM
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One more thing: I love the Moxi. I love having 3 tuners ("24" on Fox, "Two and a Half Men" and "Big Bang Theory" on CBS/"Dancing With The Stars" on ABC, as one example).

My plan: I am hoping my hard drive stays working until the warranty expires. At that time, assuming it has been shown one can put in a bare drive (I know I can also attempt a clone), I intend to purchase and install hopefully a better hard drive (still have not decided to either stick with the Seagate or jump to the Western Digital). My point: even with the big problems I have had, I still love the Moxi and its three tuners. And I love Moxi Customer Care.
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post #2599 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 08:43 PM
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Thanks for the summary; I've only been following this thread for a week or so and paging back through the past month or so, so I hadn't followed your whole ordeal - that is definitely troubling. I tend to record stuff and let it sit until I'm in the mood to watch it, and having 500G (or more) at my disposal is probably going to lead to even more of that. My wife records and watches stuff more quickly and I'm sure she's not going to be happy if we plunk down $1k and have to deal with lost shows and other problems. Maybe it's just an anomaly but that's a lot of bad luck for one person...
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post #2600 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Haha, we have the same application in mind here... BTW, Let's Go Pens!!! I've gotten fairly decent at being able to block the score with my hand while I rewind when I screw up on the Comcast DVR.

I'm not sure I agree that nothing else needs to change, although I'm still not entirely clear on how it works now. It sounds like the "jump" button is usually "swap tuners" unless there is only one free tuner, in which case it becomes a "previous channel" button. Is that accurate? Does that mean in general there is no "previous channel" button? What does it do on the 3T box, cycle between all 3 tuners? If that's how it works, one bad implication seems to be the "Jump" button may or may not dump the buffer depending on what else the box is doing.

Regardless, what you suggested (remembering pause state and position per-buffer [and probably per-box in to account for mates]) certainly sounds like a beneficial change and would probably go a long way towards solving the problem.

You raise an interesting point about the 'jump' button. I'm not entirely sure how it works under the covers with respect to the buffers. Can do some testing here, perhaps, to understand the specifics.

Bruins fan here. C'mon, the Pens don't need any help! Ahhhh... but the B's may well...

Agreed about the per-box state being needed, too, to account for the mates.
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post #2601 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:21 PM
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Replacing internal HDD vs. Moxi® Software and Services End User Agreement

No one has mentioned the extensive, Moxi® Software and Services End User Agreement (Dec. 1, 2008): http://moxi.com/us/support/MC4R/Moxi...doc.pdf#page=9

Does this mean mess with the Moxi or use it in a way incosistant with Moxi's desire, That your account could be terminated?

"End User Agreement: The binding agreement that applies to your possession and use of the Moxi® software and Moxi services provided in connection with your Moxi hardware products."

"Any use, maintenance, repair or storage of the Moxi hardware products that does not comply with the terms of any agreement regarding your use of the Moxi hardware products and/or any applicable software or service agreements."

"any hardware products that have had a cover or casing opened or improperly accessed,"

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post #2602 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Operon View Post

Regarding the whole buffering issue FWIW, I thought I’d add my 2¢. One must keep in mind one of the major features of the Moxi. That is its streaming capability. Think of it as ownership of the tuner and its cognate buffer. Each device in the Moxi environment can “own” only a single channel/buffer which is the combo that is currently being viewed (or recorded). Once you switch to another tuner, you give up the previous tuner/buffer combo for use by another device within the network. Therefore, maintaining a pointer to indicate when channel was switched becomes irrelevant. Nevertheless, I agree that it is fairly easy to accommodate the feature of maintaining a pointer in a previously switched buffer however this adds to the logical complexity of switching. Which is why, I suggest that Moxi took the simpler path.

The logic might look like the following:
  1. Press Jump button (This would require that “jumping” is not simply switching the currently viewed tuner’s channel but to move to the second tuner/buffer combo)
  2. Has channel/buffer been accessed by another device (eg. Mate)? Yes/No
  3. If Yes, then Do you want to bump the device? Yes/No (Keep in mind that if the tuner/buffer was accessed by another device, then the issue of a pointer becomes irrelevant; previous buffer is lost.)
  4. If #2 is No, then do you want to pick up pointer? Yes/No
  5. If Yes, go to pointer
  6. If No, go to Live TV

See how this complicates matters? I hope this sheds some light on the issue. With a self-contained DVR such as what the cable companies provide “ownership” of the tuner is irrelevant. I’ll amend this post with a logic diagram later this evening.

I do see your point about the added complexity of maintaining pause state. I'm not certain that's necessarily the definitive answer though (though it could be). With respect to bullet items 2 and 3 above, it makes sense that previous buffer was lost if the tuner associated with it was accessed by another device (unless of course the other device was tuning to the same channel that was previously being buffered).

While I'm sure the tuner allocation/utilization algorithm could be modified to deal with the multi-device issues in the context of this feature (pause time saved on previous channel), doing so may impact other device features that involve the tuner usage algorithm(s). I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to suggest that modifying that algorithm would be easy, or even warranted. I do maintain, though, that the save-pause-time feature would indeed be easy to implement if it were *solely added* to the existing tuner management strategy implemented in the Moxi. Even if everything you wrote is right on the money, if the buffer associated with the pause time in question no longer exists (due to dancing tuners) when one next changes back to that channel then live tv is played. If the buffer is still there then the pause time can be used to resume playout where it was earlier paused. It's that simple... Yes, some users might be bothered in a multi-device environment when they keep seeing a previously paused buffer disappear due to 'tuner dancing', but so what? There is no access to the feature at all today, so adding it can only be a benefit in those situations where it is available (because tuners haven't danced), right? There is no mandate to change the tuner utilization strategy in the context of this suggestion...

For what it's worth, I'm in a multi-device setup, but rarely have a mate in use at the same time the main Moxi is in use. In such a situation this feature would almost always be available for use.

Lastly, I tried the same scenario (pause on channel 1, switch to another channel, then switch back to channel 1 hoping for playout to resume where it was paused earlier) after first setting channel 1 to record. Still no dice... When switching back to channel 1 you are still greeted with live tv playout, even though the tuner had been explicitly locked on channel 1 via a record request earlier. All of the tuner utilization strategy discussion goes out the window at this point. I can't fathom any reason for playout to not resume where it had been paused earlier in this case... Why isn't this the standard functionality?
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post #2603 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Not that I'm the thread police but I think RTV/Moxi comparisons are fine although troubleshooting RTV issues is probably better suited for a new thread (where it's more likely to get attention from other RTV users as well).

Sorry for the confusion -- I was asking about Moxi channel guides and loss of functionality because of my experiences with RTVs. I'm definitely not looking for troubleshooting because there's nothing wrong with my RTVs . . . the problem is with the Channel Guide.

From the responses from two Moxi owners, it seems the same problem would happen with Moxis just as with RTVs if there are channel guide problems. Which is currently the case in my area -- if a channel lineup disappears, then the Moxi won't work at all. Perhaps that's something everyone else is already aware of, and perhaps I missed earlier discussions of this limitation in this thread. I thought I'd read all the previous posts in this thread, but there's a lot to read & I could well have missed earlier comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by midas89 View Post

If you go into your ReplayTV right now. Menu. Manual Record. You can set ReplayTV to record something for May 10, as one example. And there is no TV Guide entry for May 10 right now, correct? Try it. It works.

No it doesn't. Not if you don't have a Channel Guide. Which is our situation. We haven't changed cable companies, and there have been no changes to our channel lineup. Our RTVs are activated. But we have no Channel Guides -- they completely disappeared last Saturday with no warning . . . there one minute, gone the next. Again, one cannot manually record anything without a Channel Guide. Even an out-of-date one as in your example works, but not having a Channel Guide at all makes it impossible to record anything at all.

Go to your RTV now and give it a try. Hook your cable coax directly to the RTV, and then make the change in Menu, Network and Input Settings by setting your only cable input to ANT/CATV -- choose "Cable," and then choose "Other Service Provider" to simulate what happens without a Channel Guide, then Keep All Settings. Let your RTV connect the mother ship, then tune to any channel you can receive using straight coax, and try a Manual Record. It doesn't work without a Channel Guide.

I think we were kind of talking apples & oranges here, but it seems the answer to my original question about how much of Moxi's functionality is dependent on the Channel Guide is that it's the same or more restrictive as with RTVs: if you have no Channel Guide, you can't record anything. And, if you know something is going to be on channel X at Y time but that info doesn't appear in the guide for some reason, you can't set a manual record for channel X at Y time for Z minutes to catch it, if I'm correctly understanding.

I'm still curious about the analog dongle -- do folks with analog dongles have a separate Guide that only lists analog channels or how does that work so that you're ensuring that you're correctly scheduling analog channels only on the fourth tuner?
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post #2604 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by geodon005 View Post

Sourball:

here is the reply I received fromMoxi's Customer Care on this issue:

The HDCP service, for copyright protection reasons, disables the component and composite outputs for video. Audio however can still be output.

If you wish to back up to a DVD for educational purposes, you only need to connect the Moxi to the inputs on the DVD recorder, then connect the DVD player's outputs to the TV, so the DVD recorder will act as a pass-through device recording everything you watch on the DVR. You shouldn't need to connect the DVR directly to the TV when connecting it this way.

Please note that some DVD recorders recognize Macrovision flagging for content protection, so you might not be able to record certain/any programs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by domino92024 View Post

IIRC, you cannot use the Moxi's HDMI output and its component output at the same time. Are you using HDMI to your TV? If so, disconnect the HDMI cable from your Moxi, reboot your Moxi, and I bet your component video now is OK.

Not being able to use the composite or component video out while using the HDMI out, is a big deal for me also. I use my cable DVR's Dedicated Record out to VCR all the time, Also this feature can act as quasi fourth tuner. (I use it to output to a DVD-HDD Recorder to edit and burn recorded programing to DVD all the time.) The upcoming switch to Passport may also disable this function also though

Quote:
Originally Posted by LongRufus View Post

Moxi is 100% dependent on the guide. When Comcast upgraded my system and added about 30 new HD channels, the Moxi could tune in the channels but couldn't record any of them. I waited patiently for 5 days for the guide to populate on its' own, but it never happened. I had to contact Moxi support to get the ball rolling. It took about 2 days from the time I contacted Moxi until the new channels were added.

What is even more annoying to me is that the guide data for many of my local stations is often wrong. The shows themselves are listed in the correct timeslot, but the episode details are incomplete or incorrect. This causes huge problems for series recordings because of the dopey 30 day rule. It is constantly incorrectly flagging shows I have not recorded yet as duplicates, and every night I have to manually go and force the Moxi to record them. If Moxi is going to supply us with shoddy guide data, the least they could do is give us a "Record All with Duplicates" option like Tivo.

100% dependent on the guide and it's accuracy, doesn't help to sway my either.

I don't like being tethered to my cable DVR, But it sound like it is my only option for my purposes at the moment.

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post #2605 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Hm, my next stumbling block is the network connections. I was hoping to use powerline since I already have a couple Netgear XAV101's, I was hoping I could buy a couple more for $120 and call it a day. But, unfortunately although I get 150+ Mbps (reported by the diag utility) between the adapters where they were, I moved one around to various rooms and saw rates as low as the mid-20's which isn't going to cut it.

I don't think running cat 5 is going to be viable (105 year old, 3 story house, plaster walls, etc), so I guess I'll probably try MoCA. Any advice there? I'm leaning towards the Actiontec because they all seem to be basically the same hardware and it's the cheapest - especially considering I need 3 and they're the only ones that seem to sell singles.

I had inadequate wiring as well, and after a bunch of research elected to go with MoCA. I now have three of the Actiontec ECB2200 (aka HME2200 sometimes) and they just work. I started with a two pack and then added another after I saw how well they were working. I still plan on measuring the throughput at some point, but for now I have no problems at all streaming to a mate. I've got at least three non-amplified splitters on the coax infrastructure and haven't had an issues to speak of. I've got one at each Moxi unit (one DVR and one mate), and the third providing access to the ISP uplink...
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post #2606 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by marcInNH View Post

I now have three of the Actiontec ECB2200 (aka HME2200 sometimes) and they just work.

Cool, thanks! The only thing that gives me pause about that one is that you can't set the encryption password, and I can't seem to find a consumer source for a low-pass/PoE filter. Probably just paranoia but I don't like the thought of a neighbor getting a MoCA bridge and ending up on my LAN (either intentionally or inadvertently). Maybe Comcast already has filters installed that will prevent that from happening?

Still, at $225 for 3 Actiontec's vs. $360 for 4 Netgears, I don't know if I'm *that* worried about it.

Ha - now look, I'm thread-jacking after poking at the RTV guys
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post #2607 of 7531 Old 04-17-2010, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Ha - now look, I'm thread-jacking after poking at the RTV guys

And gals

Seriously, the networking info is helpful. Assuming I can convice my dh to crawl under the house yet again to string more Ethernet, I'm planning on going that way. But, the possibility always exists that he'll finally rebel, in which case I'll have to look at alternatives because I Don't Crawl Under Houses.

So, the discussions of MoCA and how it's working is very helpful to me
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post #2608 of 7531 Old 04-18-2010, 12:22 AM
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Sslund, sorry for any confusion. Of course, you must have the channels listed at the left of the guide. What I was saying is that you don't need the actual program listings to do a manual record. (ReplayTV.) With Moxi, however, since there is no manual record capability, not only must you have the channels listed in the grid guide at the left, you must also have the actual program listed inside the grid guide to schedule that program. So if Moxi were ever to go under, we might all be screwed. (But that's not going to happen, of course.)

Sorry to hear your ReplayTV's lost the channel lineup. That sucks. I hope you can get that resolved.
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Cool, thanks! The only thing that gives me pause about that one is that you can't set the encryption password, and I can't seem to find a consumer source for a low-pass/PoE filter. Probably just paranoia but I don't like the thought of a neighbor getting a MoCA bridge and ending up on my LAN (either intentionally or inadvertently). Maybe Comcast already has filters installed that will prevent that from happening?

Still, at $225 for 3 Actiontec's vs. $360 for 4 Netgears, I don't know if I'm *that* worried about it.

Ha - now look, I'm thread-jacking after poking at the RTV guys


If you d not mind the used market, you can get some MoCA devices on the cheap.
Try searching for
M1424WR or MI424WR

Info on how to configure these is
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1145636
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post #2610 of 7531 Old 04-18-2010, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by todd_j_derr View Post

Cool, thanks! The only thing that gives me pause about that one is that you can't set the encryption password, and I can't seem to find a consumer source for a low-pass/PoE filter. Probably just paranoia but I don't like the thought of a neighbor getting a MoCA bridge and ending up on my LAN (either intentionally or inadvertently). Maybe Comcast already has filters installed that will prevent that from happening?

Still, at $225 for 3 Actiontec's vs. $360 for 4 Netgears, I don't know if I'm *that* worried about it.

Ha - now look, I'm thread-jacking after poking at the RTV guys

I don't blame you for considering the security angle. I'm not real concerned by it, since I'm in a neighborhood that doesn't cause me much pause there (distance between homes, nice family area, etc.).

If I ever do get to the point of concern, though, I'll likely just order a cheap diplexer (for example: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...LAID=220403098 since the filters seem hard to find) and connect it inside my home where the coax enters... Of course this isn't guaranteed to NOT cause problems in some realm of the spectrum being used, depending upon one's particular setup/situation...

It is kind of silly that the DES password can't be changed on the Actiontec units. Then again, the lack of management available on them likely contributes to the lower cost... Others have probably determined the reality of this now, but I did just shoot off a message to Actiontec support asking about changing the DES password...

edit: I was being kind of glib when I talked about, and linked to, a cheap diplexer. I'd try to find the highest performance one (best stopband rejection), and perhaps focus on the Channel Master ones when actually purchasing...
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