The Official AVS Dish DTVPal DVR Topic! - Page 649 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19441 of 19720 Old 10-06-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRANK43 View Post
Why would stations change to Standard Time on the 5th of October? the actual date this year is November 5th. The old change, which the PAL uses, is the last weekend of October. I know the timers can start to go haywire about 30 days before the new change date. That's what screwed them up when they changed the start and stop dates.
Frank, I don't mean to sound like P. Smith but we have been discussing this issue every 6 months for the last five years!

My data here is also mixed -- at this time the DTVPal does NOT indicate a time change on Nov 5th. Data for all stations was correct all summer, now several stations are indicating that DST is NOT being observed. All my conclusions come from observing the DTVPal Diagnostics.
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post #19442 of 19720 Old 10-06-2017, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
Frank, I don't mean to sound like P. Smith but we have been discussing this issue every 6 months for the last five years!

My data here is also mixed -- at this time the DTVPal does NOT indicate a time change on Nov 5th. Data for all stations was correct all summer, now several stations are indicating that DST is NOT being observed. All my conclusions come from observing the DTVPal Diagnostics.

I know, I'm the guy with all the mexican stations messing up my time that you helped me with. I interpreted Shultdw "stations" as the actual TV stations maybe he ment the stations in the guide.

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post #19443 of 19720 Old 10-06-2017, 12:52 PM
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The stations didn't actually change - what they did is they started broadcasting that they would change on the 5th at 2 AM. But there's no month field in that particular PSIP table, so they can only say "the 5th," not "Nov. 5th."

The problem is, many of them started broadcasting that info on Oct. 5th, which has frequently fooled our Pals in the past into changing that very day, instead of waiting a month. (The Pals always change back the next day, when the stations are still reporting they're on DST but will change on the 5th.)

Looking at schultdw's data, it appears this year some of them didn't start reporting the upcoming change until 4 AM. I don't know if that delay helped his Pal avoid making the same mistake this year.

It also appears a couple of stations in our area think the change will happen Oct. 29. That hasn't been correct for about 10 years, so those two stations must be really slow about updating their systems.

Last edited by JHBrandt; 10-06-2017 at 12:57 PM.
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post #19444 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 10:08 AM
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Had to switch out the UPS on the Pal and now it's loading OK - can watch TV - but getting this error:
Quote:
An error has occurred with the hard disk drive. Please unplug your DTVPal from the power outlet for 15 seconds. A647
Did that several times and it's still not spinning. No fan either. I have a local technician who has replaced some capacitors before. So what might it be and is it fixable?
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post #19445 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 10:22 AM
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I Would open it and connect the HDD to PC and will run diagnostics, like MHDD from bootable CD or Victoria under Windows
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post #19446 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 11:07 AM
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I Would open it and connect the HDD to PC and will run diagnostics, like MHDD from bootable CD or Victoria under Windows
No Windows here. (We've had this discussion before . . .) No clues what might be going on? At least I have a spare (2 in fact) so just fired one up. Would like to get the broken one fixed though. Anyone else???
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post #19447 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by golinux View Post
Had to switch out the UPS on the Pal and now it's loading OK - can watch TV - but getting this error:


Did that several times and it's still not spinning. No fan either. I have a local technician who has replaced some capacitors before. So what might it be and is it fixable?
By UPS did you mean the power supply board in the Pal? It sounds like there's no power getting to the HDD or fan. (It's hard to tell with the fan though; it only spins when the MB gets warm enough.) Check your connections; if those are OK your new power supply board may be bad.

If your power supply board is bad, there are two possible solutions:

  1. Externalize the HDD so it doesn't need power from the board
  2. Or just replace the power supply board again

If you need another power supply board, I have a Pal with a bad MB but a good power supply board. PM me.
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post #19448 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
By UPS did you mean the power supply board in the Pal? It sounds like there's no power getting to the HDD or fan. (It's hard to tell with the fan though; it only spins when the MB gets warm enough.) Check your connections; if those are OK your new power supply board may be bad.
I switched the Uninterruptible Power Supply not the power supply board. But that may indeed be bad. Will know after we have a look hopefully tomorrow.

Quote:
If your power supply board is bad, there are two possible solutions:

  1. Externalize the HDD so it doesn't need power from the board
  2. Or just replace the power supply board again
Might consider an external enclosure. Thanks for reminding me.

Quote:
If you need another power supply board, I have a Pal with a bad MB but a good power supply board. PM me.
Thanks, I just may do that.
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post #19449 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 02:04 PM
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I had one HDD fail that gave that same warning message. It was the original 250 GB that was in 'Pal #1 I bought from Dish. New drive worked fine. I have another one, the bedroom 'Pal, that about half the time it loses and regains power I get that HDD error message, but so far it's always come back by unplugging from the AC, waiting 20 sec or so and plugging it back in. Happens to be the one HDD I've used that isn't spec'd for "AV" use.
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post #19450 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
I had one HDD fail that gave that same warning message. It was the original 250 GB that was in 'Pal #1 I bought from Dish. New drive worked fine. I have another one, the bedroom 'Pal, that about half the time it loses and regains power I get that HDD error message, but so far it's always come back by unplugging from the AC, waiting 20 sec or so and plugging it back in. Happens to be the one HDD I've used that isn't spec'd for "AV" use.
Well, I tried that several times and it didn't work for me. Maybe I'll try one more time. I guess a reformat won't work either if the drive is 'invisible'. The drive is a 1tb WD media drive that I had put in years ago. Still have the original 250 to drop back in if that's the failure point. I don't mess with hardware but fortunately know someone who's very good at it.
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post #19451 of 19720 Old 11-30-2017, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post
No Windows here. (We've had this discussion before . . .) No clues what might be going on? At least I have a spare (2 in fact) so just fired one up. Would like to get the broken one fixed though. Anyone else???
Oops, then take gsmartcontrol for linux, run short and extensive self-tests and post SMART before tests and after
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post #19452 of 19720 Old 12-01-2017, 08:21 AM
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OK. Thanks. That I have installed.

Update: The technician uses gsmartcontrol so will get to the bottom of this early next week. Stay tuned.

Last edited by golinux; 12-02-2017 at 07:33 AM.
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post #19453 of 19720 Old 12-04-2017, 03:59 PM
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Hard drive was dead!

That says it all. gsmartcontrol couldn't even mount/read the drive. Popped in the old one and all better. No bulging caps either so an easy fix. Just ordered another WD10EURX because I know it works. Is there a list anywhere of more recent compat drives?
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post #19454 of 19720 Old 12-04-2017, 05:08 PM
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I don't think anyone has compiled a list, but just about any SATA drive of 1TB or less (down to 80GB IIRC) should work.

For the record, we have seen a handful of 1TB SATA drives that don't work, so make sure you can return one if you can't use it.
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post #19455 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 10:28 AM
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The Pal that I'm using until the new hard drive arrives is catching a LOT of fringe stations. That almost never happened on the other Pal. IIRC, there is a way to permanently block those unwanted channels but can't seem to find it. Anyone know where/what that is? Or am I imagining that there is a way to stop this daily annoyance.
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post #19456 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 10:53 AM
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You can't turn off the auto scan. Be nice if they'd included that as an option. But you can delete those channels and they should stay deleted. Menu 3,2,2,1 .

I think you're in the Austin area? Probably the snow front that blew over you caused some temporary long distance reception.
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post #19457 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
You can't turn off the auto scan. Be nice if they'd included that as an option. But you can delete those channels and they should stay deleted. Menu 3,2,2,1 .

I think you're in the Austin area? Probably the snow front that blew over you caused some temporary long distance reception.
You can hide those channels but you can't stop them from being used to calculate the current time. And typically any channel not received and held in memory gains about 8 seconds a day. Further, when a large number of stations have the same amount of error, the DTVPal can't eliminate them from the time calculations.

Take my current situation: 8 locals correct time, 5 outliers about +300 seconds gaining 8 seconds a day, 1 outlier at +700 seconds - has not been received for months. The DTVPal calculates the time using the 8 locals and 5 outliers, clock error +75 seconds gaining 3 or 4 a day.

If/when the error reaches +90 seconds and that will happen in a few days if we don't get some skip, I'm going to do a rescan and start over.

I recommend you wait a couple of days and do a rescan and two warm boots.

On a side note, I wonder if I can keep my two DTVPal's running until the ATSC 3.0 recorders come out, assuming that they do.

Last edited by Pete-N2; 12-09-2017 at 11:42 AM.
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post #19458 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
You can't turn off the auto scan. Be nice if they'd included that as an option. But you can delete those channels and they should stay deleted. Menu 3,2,2,1 .

I think you're in the Austin area? Probably the snow front that blew over you caused some temporary long distance reception.
It's been happening since I switched the Pals out over a week ago when it was 80 and sunny with new channels being found every day. The now broken Pal rarely found new channels.
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post #19459 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golinux View Post
The Pal that I'm using until the new hard drive arrives is catching a LOT of fringe stations. That almost never happened on the other Pal. IIRC, there is a way to permanently block those unwanted channels but can't seem to find it. Anyone know where/what that is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
You can't turn off the auto scan. Be nice if they'd included that as an option. But you can delete those channels and they should stay deleted. Menu 3,2,2,1.
I suppose you could power down the Pal overnight, perhaps with one of those old-fashioned electrical timers, but that might affect your program guide.

Normally deleted channels will stay deleted. The Pal keeps a record of them, which is how it knows not to add them back - but occasionally, it seems like that doesn't work and a deleted channel comes back anyway. Probably happens when the station makes changes on their end, such as adding or changing subchannels.

Also, the record of receiving the channel appears to affect the time calculation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
You can hide those channels but you can't stop them from being used to calculate the current time. And typically any channel not received and held in memory gains about 8 seconds a day. Further, when a large number of stations have the same amount of error, the DTVPal can't eliminate them from the time calculations.
The method to hide them, by the way, is to use parental controls. Set an easy-to-enter, easy-to-remember password (I use 9999). Then it's 3,1,4; lock the out-of-area channels, and select "Hide Locked Channels."

You'll have to enter the password when protecting or unprotecting recordings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-N2 View Post
On a side note, I wonder if I can keep my two DTVPal's running until the ATSC 3.0 recorders come out, assuming that they do.
The question of ATSC 3.0 DVRs is still up in the air, I think. My guess is, they will eventually appear, but the recordings will be encumbered to some extent by DRM, so you may not be able to play them on devices other than the one that recorded them. You may not even be able to skip commercials (which would pretty much defeat the purpose, IMO)!

I certainly could be wrong, but I think we'll find ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 co-existing for quite a while. There is neither a mandate for new equipment to be 3.0-capable nor a mandated transition date, so I think ATSC 3.0 will become like HD Radio: many stations will broadcast 3.0 signals, and those of use who want (and can afford) UHD, HDR, WGG, DD9.7.5, ABC, 123, and XYZ will invest in the equipment to receive it (and put up with the encumbrances), but most folks will stick with ATSC 1.0 for a very long time.
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Last edited by JHBrandt; 12-09-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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post #19460 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
The method to hide them, by the way, is to use parental controls. Set an easy-to-enter, easy-to-remember password (I use 9999). Then it's 3,1,4; lock the out-of-area channels, and select "Hide Locked Channels."
Any disadvantage to using Delete Channels, MENU,3,2,2,1? (Select channels and DELETE)
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post #19461 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 07:15 PM
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Most tropo channels don't come in often enough to be work keeping around, so I just delete them. But if you have one that comes in pretty much every night, you could hide that one during the day, then unhide it at night when it's working and won't get in the way of your surfing. This could happen if a channel is around 70 miles away, i.e., just over the horizon (given typical TV tower height).
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post #19462 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 07:32 PM
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Freezing after loading

Just got a Pal I hope to fix. Wondering if this story brings any obvious suggestions before I take it to a shop.
Was told it was freezing up after channel scanning. Hoped it was just a bad hard drive, but no. Replaced the (factory original) HD with a 1TB, sealed it back up, started it, saw the loading screen, did a channel scan, saw all local channels on the found list, started viewing a broadcast. But within 30 seconds, it started to freeze. Unplugged, waited a minute, plugged back in, same: Loads fine but freezes in seconds.
Unplugged, inserted a USB drive with F208 in root directory and an "update" folder, plugged back in, but didn't notice any obvious updating. Just loaded and froze.
Any advice before reopening and checking capacitors? Or what could the issue(s) be? Many thanks!
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post #19463 of 19720 Old 12-09-2017, 10:39 PM
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you must check capacitors during, actually before(!), HDD replacement... sure, open again and check visually, but better use ESR device, it's intact measure;
while the DVR is open, open tuner's cans, get freezing spray (from Fry's), wait for channel's freeze and spray OTA tuner chip in that small can, if no changes - try to cool demod chips next to tuner's cans
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post #19464 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by P Smith View Post
you must check capacitors during, actually before(!), HDD replacement... sure, open again and check visually, but better use ESR device, it's intact measure;
while the DVR is open, open tuner's cans, get freezing spray (from Fry's), wait for channel's freeze and spray OTA tuner chip in that small can, if no changes - try to cool demod chips next to tuner's cans
Man, I thought I knew enough to check around a little, but ya lost me with most of that.
Open tuner's cans?
Demod chips?
And when I spray the tuner chip, what do I look for/want to happen/hope doesn't happen/do next based on what happens?

Thank you!

Edit: And if this is potentially a Christmas gift and we're two weeks away, should I just opt for the repair center or does this sound possibly easily fixable?
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post #19465 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 07:05 AM
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should I just opt for the repair center or does this sound possibly easily fixable?
What repair center do you know of that works on these?

.
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post #19466 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 07:11 AM
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according 19K+ posts in the thread, no one service had courage for fixing the DVR (exclude simple task for just replacing bulged capacitors);
perhaps you will be lucky one
oh, check first pages of the thread - you'll find pictures of main PCB with the tuner's cans and demod chips near them
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post #19467 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 07:13 AM
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What repair center do you know of that works on these?

.
Ha, yeah, I used a bad choice of words. I just mean there are a couple local shops willing to take a look.
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post #19468 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 08:49 AM
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I would start by looking for bulging electrolytic capacitors. If you find any, they obviously need replacing and are fairly easy to replace.

Check inside the shielding around the CPU. There are a couple in there that can go bad too.

If you don't see any that are visibly bulging, you can check the electrolytic capacitors with an ESR meter to see if they need replacing anyway. You probably don't have one of those, but your local repair shops might. They'll also have cooling spray to see if the freezing-up is being caused by something overheating.

Since you've already tried a new HDD, if it's anything beyond bad capacitors, it's going to be a tough repair. (Most of the Pal's parts are tough or impossible to find nowadays, unless you have another bad Pal with a different bad part. It's also tough or impossible to desolder/resolder surface-mount components without the proper equipment.) Your best bet is to isolate the problem to either the motherboard or the power supply board by swapping one of the boards between two Pals, then hope you can find a Pal where the other board is bad. Then you can swap boards and get one working Pal out of the two bad ones.

@ed_in_tx may have some good repair suggestions too.
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post #19469 of 19720 Old 12-11-2017, 12:21 PM
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I've seen C34 and to a lesser extent C242 under the larger shield cause lockups.
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post #19470 of 19720 Old 12-12-2017, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I would start by looking for bulging electrolytic capacitors. If you find any, they obviously need replacing and are fairly easy to replace.

Check inside the shielding around the CPU. There are a couple in there that can go bad too.

If you don't see any that are visibly bulging, you can check the electrolytic capacitors with an ESR meter to see if they need replacing anyway. You probably don't have one of those, but your local repair shops might. They'll also have cooling spray to see if the freezing-up is being caused by something overheating.

Since you've already tried a new HDD, if it's anything beyond bad capacitors, it's going to be a tough repair. (Most of the Pal's parts are tough or impossible to find nowadays, unless you have another bad Pal with a different bad part. It's also tough or impossible to desolder/resolder surface-mount components without the proper equipment.) Your best bet is to isolate the problem to either the motherboard or the power supply board by swapping one of the boards between two Pals, then hope you can find a Pal where the other board is bad. Then you can swap boards and get one working Pal out of the two bad ones.

@ed_in_tx may have some good repair suggestions too.
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Originally Posted by ed_in_tx View Post
I've seen C34 and to a lesser extent C242 under the larger shield cause lockups.
Quote:
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you must check capacitors during, actually before(!), HDD replacement... sure, open again and check visually, but better use ESR device, it's intact measure;
while the DVR is open, open tuner's cans, get freezing spray (from Fry's), wait for channel's freeze and spray OTA tuner chip in that small can, if no changes - try to cool demod chips next to tuner's cans
Thank you to all, first and foremost. Great community here.
A local shop has agreed to give it a try, and this info might help. The tech said it would help to have a schematic or wiring diagram (not just a user manual). Anyone have one of those for the DTVPal or CM-7000PAL?
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