Update on my prior DVR+ vs. HDHomeRun Connect Quatro vs. TV tuner performance comments (in case anybody's interested):

I've now had an opportunity to test the three against one another under some variety of conditions, with identical or near-identical antenna setups. The keywords here being "some variety" and "near-identical." It would appear, from my experiences, that the HDHomeRun Connect Quatro tuners perform as well as, and perhaps better than, the tuner in our Samsung LN46D630 TV, and certainly better than the tuners in the DVR+.

Of course: YMMV

And I've yet to compare them under challenging weather conditions, as we haven't had any since I got the HDHR on the rooftop antenna.

Technical note: To get the HDHR on the outside antenna, I had to split the coax outside the house. Then it's split again at the HT equipment to feed the TV and the DVR+. This means the TV and DVR+ realize a 3dB or greater signal loss compared to what the HDHR gets. (Likely decreased SNR, as well.) However I will note that experimenting by removing that 2nd splitter did not appear to have any effect on the TV's performance on marginal signals. I estimate my total path loss to TV/DVR+ to be in the realm of 10dB. The estimated noise margins here, for the stations of interest, are well in excess of that--not even taking into account antenna gain.

Monday, June 11: Saturday we had some pretty decent breezes, with a bit of gusting and on-and-off misting. There was occasional brief, very brief, disruptions on at least two of our three problem stations, maybe all three, but nothing I'd have noted if I wasn't purposely tracking it. Today, Monday, we've got quite a bit of fairly gusty wind. Only intermittent disruption on one of our problem stations, and that not even remotely bad enough to be even annoying, much less make it unwatchable. Checked the DVR+. It's disrupting more severely and more frequently, but also not bad enough to make the program unwatchable, per se.

A week ago or so I re-aimed the rooftop antenna to a bearing that was the clearest between the trees, which is about 20° (seat-of-the-pants estimate) off the median bearing of the stations of interest. My impression is that's helped reduce interference from the trees blowing around.

S/N is probably not affected much if there's a preamp in the line before the split.

With no preamp, it should be as you'd expect: 3 or 4 dB less signal = 3 or 4 dB lower S/N. The primary noise source is the tuners themselves, so N is essentially constant for each tuner, and S/N is therefore proportional to S.

But a preamp introduces its own (typically lower) noise, then amplifies both S and N by the same amount. If the gain is enough, the amplified noise coming out of the preamp will be significantly more than the noise introduced by any of the tuners. So the tuner noise is essentially irrelevant, and S/N is "locked in" by the preamp.

Luckily, most preamps "lock in" a somewhat better S/N than most tuners have, so it's usually worthwhile to use a preamp if any of your signals are weak.

BTW, multi-tuner devices (this would include both the HDHR and the DVR+) generally include an integrated preamp for the same reason, although its gain is usually lower than a typical standalone preamp. That's why splitting the signal within multi-tuner devices generally isn't as much of a factor as one might naively think.

Some evidence CM may not have had a choice about discontinuing the DVR+ (this quote is from a review of E*'s AirTV box): Yes, that rather sounds like the DVR+ too. Anyone remember how "whole-home" was being promised from the very beginning of the DVR+? As you may know E* makes (made) the Slingbox as well as the DVR+. So it sounds like they discontinued not only the DVR+ but also the Slingbox (!) and are now putting all their eggs in the AirTV basket. Also sounds like anyone wanting a Slingbox better get one while they can, a la the DVR+ last fall....

To me, that makes it sound like it was all E*'s decision, not CM's. Which makes sense: it's always seemed to me that the DVR+ and Stream+ are complementary products, not competitive ones. I think CM wanted a streaming box with an OTA DVR "plus," and an OTA DVR with a streaming "plus," and was planning on selling both, but got the DVR+ rug pulled out from under them by E*, so they halfheartedly rebranded the Stream+ as the "successor" product on a few of their DVR+ Web pages. That would also explain why they missed the last Christmas shopping season, as well as why the Stream+ was rushed onto the market before it was ready.

That's the impression I have.


That's what I've wanted all along.


And that's what I'm now getting, without CM, E*, Sling, Dish, what-have-you. It was their business to lose, and lose it they did.

Simple TV DVR, DVR+, and TiVo? Maybe: https://thedesk.matthewkeys.net/2018...top-making-dvr.

Hard to believe everyone suddenly decided OTA is dead...unless it is...or they are surrendering low margin customers to the new android devices. Something is up.

It's hard to believe that Tablo TV might end up being the last polished OTA DVR, but here we are...

May not be as bad as it sounds: IOW it sounds like they're adopting Channel Master's business model.

Also:
I'm very adverse to subscriptions which is one reason I 'cut the cord' five years ago.

I may watch for reports about their new hardware and then see if they again offer "Lifetime" subscription at a reasonable cost.
Art

And will probably use a Technicolor box like everyone else.

Arris is the most likely bet out of the gate. Arris already is making many of the MSO partner boxes. The newest Mini is identical to the Arris box that was out almost a year before for some MSO groups.

From my perspective, I'm personally OK sticking with the DVR+ until ATSC 3.0 is in my area and I am forced to switch...or the DVR+ dies.


The hardware is performing good, and no major complaints.


As for future hardware, I'm probably going to build my own DVR if nothing is available. Lots of options using various hardware (old computer, Raspberry Pi, or another device paired with a tuner card) and software options should be increasing with the homebrew OTA fans.


The Stream+ isn't working as I would like it. Lots of recordings failing and the SD card support is non-functional depending on the cards I use (including reputable brands from reputable retailers).


OTA where I live seems to be on the decline - now that more options that are cheaper are available for live content and legacy providers are starting to drop prices slightly to compete.


I'll enjoy what I have now, but I'm also starting to look ahead to what my next setup will be.

Hi,

Anyone think/know if the new Amazon Fire TV cube coming out 6/21 can control the CM DVR+ ?

Rich

Page that lists the compatible boxes.

In the past, whenever I've done a cold boot I have left the DVR+ on for a while to make sure the Guide gets repopulated. But the other day I had a wild hair going on, so I decided to run an experiment by shutting off the DVR+ as soon as the cold boot had completed and I had programming images on my screen. I then went out and mowed the lawn and did some yard work. A couple of hours later I turned the DVR+ on and noticed that every channel that gathers PSIP data was populated. Not only that, there were program descriptions for many of these channels, even the ones I never watch.

I see two possibilities for this. One is that the data was retained during the cold boot and was dropped in afterwards. The second is the DVR+ is able to scan for PSIP data while in standby, or has an intermittent state between standby and being fully on that allows it to scan for PSIP data. To test which theory is correct, I will have to wait until many/most of the channels I don't watch are showing "Unknown event", then reboot the DVR+ and shut it off immediately after rebooting. This last time I never checked the status of the channels before doing the cold boot.

If it is simple a matter of the old data being retained through a reboot, then all this means nothing. But if the DVR+ does scan while in standby (or even performs a full scan while rebooting) then it bodes well for a suggestion made by @JHBrandt to use a programmable timer to schedule reboots:

Relevant post

A programmable timer would go a long way to solving two problems: The PSIP problem, and the need to regularly reboot the DVR+ to clean the pipes out and fix memory leak problems. In regards to the PSIP problem, it would also benefit me by eliminating the need for dummy recordings. I would gain 20 slots in the 55 limit if I could eliminate them. The only downside to using a programmable timer would be the need to schedule any reboots around scheduled/manual recordings. I've noticed that if you reboot 5-10 minutes before a scheduled recording it might not start on time, and it seems the DVR+ has to get its bearings back before it will.

My DVR+ HDMI output wasn't being sent or being read by my receiver so I rebooted the DVR+. This was several days ago. After the reboot Channels that weren't being populated in the guide, for months, are all now being populated. Couldn't be more pleased with my DVR+.

Further experimentation has yielded additional data. This afternoon I checked the Guide to see what was going on. I noticed that two series of channels were displaying the dreaded "Unknown Event" message. One was the local Ion affiliate. The other was what I believe is an LP station that broadcasts Vietnamese programming on two of their subchannels. The LP station broadcasts 6 subchannels in addition to their primary channel. The Guide displays program titles for these channels, but I don't recall ever seeing program descriptions. The Ion affiliate has 4 subchannels in addition to their primary channel, and does display program descriptions in addition to the titles. But both were blank this afternoon, making it a perfect day to test some theories.

I set my DVR+ to the local Fox affiliate so that it wouldn't reboot into one of the channels I was testing. I unplugged the power cord from the back of the DVR+ and waited approximately 30 seconds before plugging it back in. As soon as I saw broadcast images I powered it down. Then the waiting began. I downloaded and ran BleachBit on my laptop, which netted me almost 3GB of reclaimed space. But after 2 hours it began wiping the free space, and when it displayed a message telling me that it had about 600 minutes remaining I killed the program and got back to science.

I hit the power button on the DVR+, and as soon as it displayed channel images I used the Guide and switched to the Ion affiliate (because it would be the one to show program descriptions), Sure enough, both titles and program descriptions had been collected and populated into the Guide. I then arrowed up the Guide to the LP station. It also had program titles for its channels, but of course no program descriptions. A quick flip through the rest of the Guide showed program titles for all the channels that usually display them.

Given that I have no reason to distrust the data, I can now draw some conclusions:

1. Since the two observed channels didn't display program titles or descriptions before the reboot, it seems clear that existing Guide data is not saved during a reboot and set back in place when it is finished.

2. That leaves the other two possibilities I mentioned in my earlier post: The DVR+ is scanning simultaneously while rebooting, or it runs a scan following a reboot.

3. While I have no proof, I tend to doubt that it is scanning during a reboot and do have one piece of evidence to support that belief. After a cold reboot I have seen channels with no program titles or descriptions in the Guide, with the same channels displaying program titles and descriptions 30 seconds later. It still could be that the DVR+ is scanning during the reboot, but doesn't finish until some time after it is completed.

4. That leaves running a scan following a reboot as the only remaining possibility. What is still unclear however, is whether the DVR+ runs this scan while in standby, or if there is an intermediate state between standby and fully on that is initiated to run a scan. Either way, it tends toward the positive regarding using a programmable timer to initiate reboots as a way to keep the Guide up to date. At some point I will probably pursue this possibility, but with Salvation coming back on Monday evening it will have to wait. I like the idea of being able to reclaim 20 recording slots and eliminating the manual recordings. But for maximum effectiveness a reboot rescan would need to be programmed on the timer to run every 6 hours. Programming it every 12 hours would replicate what I get with dummy recordings, but I still have blind spots on some channels that only provide 6 - 9 hours of Guide data.

Something else should be considered in all this. I seem to remember from past cold boots that if the DVR+ is on when the reboot is initiated, it remains on when completed. But if the DVR+ is off when the cold boot is initiated, it powers down when completed. Unfortunately, either method turns the power on for my TV during the process. I don't know if this is true for all TV's, or just mine because it is a Samsung. The DVR+ power button will frequently power on my TV when I turn on the DVR+, but it has never turned it off. The downside as it relates to the DVR+ is that if it stays on, it's going to stay on for a minimum of 4 hours because of the Power Options choices. 4 hours is the minimum, with Off, 5 hours and 6 hours being the others.

EDIT: My evening dummy recordings just finished up, so I decided to test the power question. The results are bad for me, but quite possibly great for others. I first did a cold boot from standby mode with the TV off. The DVR+ went through its routine, then promptly powered down to standby when finished. Unfortunately (for me anyway), my TV powered up as soon as the DVR+ power cord was plugged in to the unit. I then performed a warm boot with both the DVR+ and TV powered down. I had inverse results. While my TV didn't turn on during the process, the DVR+ didn't return to standby when it completed. The conclusion here is that if your TV doesn't turn on when performing a cold boot (with the DVR+ in standby), using a programmable timer is a potentially great way to keep your PSIP data up to date. I'd suggest programming it to reboot between 3 and 4 times a day. But definitely when you know you aren't going to be recording anything. The fact that my TV turns on during a cold boot pretty much kills it for me, though I might at least be able to live vicariously through the success of others.

There is also one final and disappointing conclusion. Finding out about a reboot scan just adds one more item to the list of Lost Opportunities for Channel Master. If the DVR+ can scan following a reboot, it wouldn't have been hard for CM/E* to program it to scan at set intervals, or give the user the ability to set those intervals. How much time and labor did CM waste when users complained about PSIP quality, and were told to change the Zip Code or do other things that didn't help? Maybe they didn't care, or maybe the actually wanted to herd people to the Internet guide because Rovi collected data or for some other reason. I don't know, and it's water under the bridge now. But that list of Lost Opportunities is a fairly long list, and it's really disappointing because it didn't have to end like that.

They (actually E*) did! Firmware 108R does this and keeps a PSIP guide populated without the need for dummy recordings or periodic reboots. But they broke it in later versions. (FWIW, I don't believe they broke it intentionally.)

BTW, setting the Zip code only affects the Rovi-supplied Internet guide. Rovi uses it to determine the correct stations to download for your area. It has no effect on PSIP, since that comes from the stations themselves.

For me, reverting to 108R will probably be the best way to go. But it will be a while before I can check it out. When I first contacted CM about my PSIP problems they told me to change the Zip Code, and added that a "Zip Code closer to the station" is better. I then asked if "closer to the station" meant the physical studio, or the transmission antenna. They told me to try both. So they were either jiving me, or didn't know what I was talking about.

CM's customer service is pretty useless. Probably 98% of DVR+ owners use the Internet guide, so the "go to" response for any guide issues was "try changing the Zip code." Of course, if they had actually listened to you, they would (well, might) have realized you weren't even on the Internet, so that wouldn't do any good.

If you do try 108R, keep in mind it was written before the "enhanced" remote came out, so you may need to use the "flat" remote for everything to work. Also, there are some differences in navigating the guide (you used the colored buttons instead of FF/Rew/Skip).

I guess for those with the Internet guide who are missing stations, trying a Zip code closer to the station's transmission tower makes some sense. The closer Rovi thinks you are to a transmitter, the more likely that Zip code is to include it in the guide. But that doesn't always work. For most Zip codes, Rovi just assigns a market ID and just gives you all the stations in that market. If you receive some out-of-market stations, you usually need to contact Rovi and get them to add the stations you're missing to your Zip code. I guess it's no wonder CM didn't want to tell folks that.

Would have been nice if CM had just allowed DVR+ owners to enter a 2nd Zip. That would have solved a lot of Internet guide problems.

With "try a factory reset" right behind that for any other problems they didn't want to deal with.

I do have the flat remote, but didn't know about the navigation differences. I like the current method of navigating the Guide, but the colored buttons wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. I think 114R was the version that came with my DVR+. When I do revert back, what am I going to lose in the way of scheduled recordings, etc.

I know people with DirecTV who have the ability to program several Zip Codes in to get local weather information for various cities. They have to switch between them one at a time to see the different weather information, But it would have been cool if the DVR+ EPG would have integrated several Zip Codes into the overall channel display. That way people who are able to receive channels from more than one market would have had a really nice Guide setup--even if they had to use an antenna rotor to actually watch the channels.

Lost opportunities...

I haven't tried reverting a DVR+ specifically to 108R, but typically when reverting firmware nothing is lost (except of course Internet apps - I think 108R just had Vudu as "channel 200" and nothing else - but you don't use the Internet apps anyway).

There are some menu differences too, but nothing major IIRC. 115R and earlier had an option to delete channels, but not hide them; 123R and newer are just the opposite, with an option to hide channels but not delete them.

Glad to hear that. I've already downloaded 108R, and have that and the instructions for reverting in a folder on my desktop. All I need is some time to do it and not screw up anything that is already in place. Losing scheduled recordings and fritzing my DVR+ are my main worries, and with CM out of the loop I'm hesitant to risk anything. Since they quit selling the DVR+ about the only disaster I can deal with myself would be a crashed HDD. I know I can always plug an external in, and I also think I could replace the internal HDD by cracking open the case and replacing it with the exact same model. If it turns out that 108R doesn't fix the PSIP issues I'll probably jump up to 134R to be done with the red light issue and keep the dummy recordings.

I bought a DVR+ when they ran the half price sale. I should have bought two-85% of my Tivo for 25% the money.

I was using a 1 TB Toshiba drive, a 2.5 inch drive powered by USB. When my Series 3 Tivo died, I took out the recently installed replacement drive, a 3.5 inch Western Digital Purple. I had to get a case and power supply for it, for $20, but afterwards...

What a difference. OK, the Purple is a surveillance video drive optimized for vid and the Toshiba a general purpose drive, but the DVR + is much more responsive when watching recordings. Well worth it.

The $150 and $144 sales were great deals, and they put pressure on TiVo to drop their prices too. I've heard TiVos have gone back up now that the DVR+ is out of production and there's no longer any real competition (CM-7004? Stream+? Give me a break).

Do you have the model # of the Toshiba HDD that performed poorly with the DVR+?

Wasn't the Toshiba HDD been selling as DVR+ with internal HDD ?

The 1t Roamio w/Lifetime goes for $400. Still about half what their OTA DVRs w/Lifetime were going for before the DVR+ and about half what the All In Bolt goes for.

Probably seen the last of the $200 Roamios, though, and I would not be surprised to see significant price/feature creep going forward.

It's an external 1TB drive in a black case, 2.5 inches.

V76300-c

It worked mostly. Occasionally it would hang while deleting things, but changing out to the WD Purple made the CM unit go from four stars to five...

Thanks. I added your report to my DVR+ HDD compatibility post here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/42-hd...l#post45885905

Happy to help. My experience with Tivo taught me that they are very picky as to the drives they recommend, and I bought the WD Purple from Weaknees as part of an upgrade kit. Further research showed that video drives "are different". Memory is a funny thing with video.....The drives in my Sony HDD 250 lasted seven and eight years, but when they went, new parts were NLA and the unit no longer supported by Sony. Drives had to be formatted by Sony-so you were (last acronym) SOL

TLR Spend the extra money and buy an HDD optimized for Video use....

Thanks for your work on the resource...very helpful.

I've had 2 DVR+ units for long enough that both are out of warranty. I haven't been watching much TV recently, but still have them auto-recording a few programs. So every couple of weeks I power them up and delete any recordings I don't want.

About a week ago I discovered that the older unit didn't display anything, so I rebooted it (held down the power button on the unit until the light changed to bright red), and I see the DVR+ logo on my TV. After the usual reboot time, the signal to the TV was gone again, just as before the reboot.

During the intervening days I've seen the red light go on for recording a program.

I tried again today, but with no signal to the TV again, I unplugged the power cable on the back of the dvr. After waiting a bit, I plugged it back in, and watched the DVR+ logo on the TV, and then it went dark. I manually pressed the power button on the front of the unit to change it from soft blue to bright blue, but still no signal to my TV.

I suppose the good news is this doesn't seem to be a cable/hdmi connection problem, since I do get something (the logo) displayed on my TV. The bad news is I cannot do anything with the DVR itself because I cannot see any menus.

I've unplugged it to see if cooling it off for a while might help.

Any suggestions?

If it is an external hard drive try unplugging that and see what happens. If it is internal HHD that might be the issue.