Only for the last year or so. Since Rovi bought TiVo, the guide is frequently wrong.

But, like you said, the descriptions are longer.

Most certainly. Tivo/Rovi data is horrible compared to Gracenote. I'm very happy Google is getting their data from Gracenote. They made the right choice.

That's because Tivo used to use Gracenote (good guide), and now use Rovi (horrible guide).

I'm checking Gracenote for 10/21/18 8pm on BBC America. It has the wrong season, episode and description. Titantv.com has right season & episode but generic data. TiVo and tvguide.com have everything wrong except the program name.

Nothing's perfect.

With PSIP the descriptions are sometimes the generic descriptions you mention, but other times are the full descriptions. It changes from week to week. I also think that with PSIP the program data is "a la carte". In other words, stations and networks get it from whoever they want, or even provide it themselves. In my area there are two stations that broadcast the Charge! network. The plot descriptions of movies on one channel tend to be very simple and are usually one sentence in length, but sometimes two. The other station broadcasting the Charge! network displays full plot descriptions, frequently with the names of the actors in the movie. I had always assumed that networks provided PSIP data to individual stations, but that may not be the case.

I've no idea how my "Nature" series got set to 'Name Contains' but I reloaded it making sure 'Name Contains' was not selected.

It has now ignored many "Nature Cat" cartoons and recorded a desired "Nature" show.

Note that I'm still on 134R and PSIP Data, this requires a daily check to assure shows aren't occasionally skipped.

I rely on the more accurate and complete Titan-TV for much better program descriptions including initial release dates on re-runs, going back to the '50s or '60s for MeTV and other archive channels. I also appreciate their "View Additional Airings" which can bypass "2-Tuner" limitations for many shows. Titan-TV also allows going back up to 12 hours to see a guide for shows recorded several hours ago.
Art

You're killing me Joe. I bet for every mistake you find on Gracenote, I could find a hundred on Rovi. They're not even in the same universe. It's not just what you see, but all the other stuff you don't, like new/repeat flags and original air dates that Rovi doesn't even bother with. To find one mistake, then lump them together and say nothing's perfect makes me cringe.

I think you're on to something. If you cancel a scheduled recording, but then history gets cleared (either by you or just by the fact that there's just not much space allotted for history+scheduled recordings), the DVR+ can't remember that you didn't want that show recorded; so when it sees it again the next time it loads the guide data for that channel, it says, "Aha! My master wants shows with this name recorded, so I'll schedule this one to record." Hence it comes back.

Probably necessary to keep the history so the DVR+ can remember that you canceled the recording of that particular episode. But of course, with all the dummy recordings, there won't be much space left for history, so the DVR+ may still "forget" and reschedule it from time to time.

It's too bad the DVR+ doesn't use part of that 16GB internal storage (I think even models with internal 1 TB drives have the 16GB chip) to store a longer recording history. A good history (along with good guide data) is key to Tivo-like recording options like "record only episodes I don't have" or "record only episodes I never had," so the DVR+ wouldn't record the same episode of a show it had already recorded, which I've always thought would be more useful than the "record only new episodes" option CM gave Internet guide users.

WMC also uses Rovi by default. Rovi does supply original air dates, which is useful to sort by when you're trying to archive an entire series. But the dates are occasionally wrong, and when they're wrong they stay wrong every time the episode is rerun. Rovi never fixes mistakes of this sort. This is especially annoying because "original air date" seems to be the one piece of metadata that I can't correct in a .wtv recording file. (There's a bug in Windows Explorer on Win 7 that M$ never fixed, and no documentation I can find on the .wtv format, so I can't even write a utility to fix it myself.) So if the date is wrong, the episode ends up out of order, and there's nothing I can do to fix it.

I record all three of the NCIS series and I have never experienced the issue you describe.

I haven't either. Are you using the Internet guide? The problem may be specific to PSIP guides, which both Greasemonkey and PilotArt reported using.

I'm well aware. The Rovi switch is why I stopped using WMC entirely. I'm lucky if 20% of the programs in my guide have the correct OAD, if they have it at all. I never had to worry about that with Gracenote. It just worked. Now I have to jump through all kinds of hoops to work around Rovi's terrible guide data.

Well, I'm sorry but I certainly spoke too soon on this issue.

It recorded one "Nature Cat" cartoon this morning and had two scheduled for this afternoon.

Definitely set for "Name Matches" not "Name Contains".

Deleted series and cleared history, will re-schedule after flash into 135R.

PSIP Requires a close watch, but it's still far easier to schedule than my DVD Recorder in every way.

Manual Recording is available up to 14 days ahead, but unless "renamed", aren't easy to keep track of long term. The DVD Recorder still excels for long term storage anyway.
Art

If I were less lazy, I'd get a Schedules Direct subscription, set up EPG123, and have WMC back the way I want it.

I'll probably do that someday; just haven't "gotten around to it" yet. I'm thinking it's a PSIP-specific bug since it didn't happen for me on 135R. But then again, I didn't recheck after a day or two. Fingers crossed.... My DVD recorder is my PC, but that requires Pachinko's "DVR+ Lister" to pull the recordings, AVIDemux to edit out the commercials, and "DVD Styler" to turn them into something that a DVD player can use. All free, but a lot of work involved. I think that's why those Magnavox 865/866/867 DVR/DVDRs are so coveted, despite their shortcomings: they make this sort of thing easy.

I get a few oldies channels where the episode description is correct in the recorded menu, but when watching the show, the title remains correct, but the description is for a completely different series. I wonder if this is a human, content management error at the station/network level. Maybe that they work from a template and forget to update specific fields/windows.

There definitely has to be some human element to these errors. TBD programming has a "Midday Matinee" feature where they showcase indie movies. One of the movies in the cycle is called "Ripped". The TBD plot describes the movie being about two stoners who smoke CIA marijuana in 1986, then wake up in 2016. The movie that TBD broadcasts however, is a 1960's comedy spoof where a specially trained chimp launches a rocket which sends the technicians (who are also a pop band) to a planet where a battle of the sexes is taking place. There are two movies titles "Ripped", with the stoner version being created in 2017 and the 60's spoof in 2014. If the meta data were gathered by computers there would be a unique ID number like an ISBN to associate it with the right film. But a stoner intern at TBD might read the plot description for the 2017 movie and choose the first title that matched, in this case being the 2014 version. That said, I also believe there has to be a significant element of data collection by machines, especially at the local level for PSIP. Local stations aren't going to pay someone to spend the day typing in titles and programming descriptions when they don't really care about PSIP in the first place.

Yesterday zap2it showed my favorite team was playing on Fox, a team I don’t get to see because I don’t live there. So I was really excited. I checked the CM guide from 135r and it showed Xploration non stop for 3 hours. I decide to take a chance and do a Manuel record in case it was wrong. Sure enough the game was on and I was able to record it. CM 135r wrong again.

That's interesting. Although I believe it happens on Saturday mornings, my PSIP guide shows various programming like truck races and the like airing on the local Fox affiliate. But what actually airs during those hours is non-stop Xploration Station. Kind of the opposite of what you are experiencing. My guess is that local affiliates have an option of what to air, and the various guide providers--i.e. Zap2It and PSIP in this case haven't yet updated the data they provide for the guides we actually see. I've noticed that these Guide malfunctions are common when a channel has changed programming by adding a new network to their subchannel lineup. Sometimes it takes several weeks for it to be corrected.

In the US, PSIP is provided by pretty much the same sources as provide other guide data. For example: In september, TVAnswers had a post targeted at stations themselves on things to do to keep guide and PSIP intact once their station moved frequencies. For PSIP - they listed the providers that would need to be contacted as:
TitanTV Inc, Gracenote, and Rovi.

I would imagine that just like a listings service can choose compact or detailed show descriptions (as you can see when comparing different listings services that use Rovi or Gracenote) - a station can also choose the level of detail of the data provided to them.

That's pretty much what I thought, even though one might naively think that (since each station broadcasts its own schedule), PSIP would always be the most accurate (albeit very short-term) source of guide data! But instead, it seems the stations must first send their local schedules to the "big 3" guide providers, then hope that whichever one they use for their PSIP data reflects back their updates before the shows air

BTW I've also noticed that the DVR+ Internet guide descriptions often alternate between compact and detailed descriptions, often for the same series! PBS's Nova is notorious for this. Generally all the reruns PBS airs within one week of the original airing have the same description (either compact or detailed, but not mixed), but if the same episode runs again months later, the description may have switched from compact to detailed or vice versa. The bias seems to be for detailed descriptions for original airings and compact descriptions for later reruns, but even that's not a hard rule AFAICS.

I always thought it was a hybrid of local origination, network and guide services that provided the data, and was integrated into an EPG used for PSIP. If it all comes from a service like those mentioned above that might explain why we don't see on the fly updates to the PSIP schedule when sports programming runs long. But it also means that there is no good reason why we aren't getting at least a week of PSIP data from the local stations who transmit the signal to end users. If all the local stations are getting a full guide's worth of data, i.e. what we see when we look at an Internet page showing the grid of all the channels for a Zip Code, one designated channel could be used to provide a full 2 weeks worth of data for all channels. If all a local station receives from the service provider is the data for their channel, they could easily broadcast two weeks woth of data in their signal.

PSIP can accommodate up to 16 days of guide data, if a station wanted to invest in the equipment and manpower to maintain their own guide. (And I don't believe it would cost that much, either.) In the past, I've seen KXAS/5 broadcast almost a week's worth of PSIP, so I know it can be done if a station wants to.

Sadly, though, it didn't last. It is a bit of a PITA to maintain, and not many devices use more than a day's worth of PSIP, if they use it at all; at this point I think it's basically just the DTVPal, CM-7000Pal, CM-7400, a few old CECBs, and offline DVR+ users. Even all together, that's still probably only a tiny fraction of a percent of a station's total viewers.

The way the PSIP protocol was designed precludes one station sending guide data for another, but there's no reason a different protocol couldn't be designed that did allow that. In fact, that's basically what the old TV Guide On-Screen service was. One station (typically a market's CBS affiliate) broadcast a weeks' worth of guide data for all the stations in the market. Too bad Rovi killed it.

Yeah -- with the EIT table dividing up the day into 8 3-hour blocks, the only thing a station is required to do is to have the current block accounted for as well as the next 3 blocks. Although it would be nice to have a longer period - it would likely also introduce some complexity that is likely not worth it when taking into account the small number of consumers using it or any changes needed in the overnight download of data into the next day's EIT blocks -- not to mention the varying levels that tuners support it. I don't believe there is any guideline on how much of the EIT a tuner must pull -- or if the long description of an event in the ETT table is referenced at all. I know I can certainly see a huge difference when comparing the bedroom TV, the living room TV, and my Franken-Iview. The bedroom TV doesn't access the ETT table at all. Only the program listing in the EIT is referenced. The Samsung in the living room accesses the ETT - but interestingly provides no way to scroll longer descriptions. It only displays a set number of characters. The Mediasonic (which after the firmware swap is now my Franken-Iview) actually has the most complete - but only goes out 12 hours (or less - if a station is near the end of the current 3 hour block).

Stations will only do what is legally required with PSIP. And even then - if something goes wrong, it has very little impact to the majority of viewers who either use cable/satellite/TiVo, etc. Last year, I had a problem with a station's STT table in the PSIP. While trying to record my wife's daily programs, the station broadcasting 'Rachael Ray' would have time entries that were all over the map. One day it would be 5 minutes slow .. the next 5 minutes fast .. or anywhere in between. It was a process of weeks trying to get a response from a station engineer (who was actually in another city at a station owned by the same company). When finally communication was established with the engineer and I was able to describe the problem with somebody who knew what I was talking about, he let me know that items like this were extremely low on station manager's priority list. In fact, further conversation clued me in on how much OTA stations don't value the OTA portion at all. If stations didn't have to broadcast OTA in order to keep the valuable spectrum ... they wouldn't. OTA viewers are less desirable to a station than one who is paying a provider (either OTT or traditional cable/satellite). Retrans fees put local stations back on the same field as cable stations -- getting advertising dollars as well as subscriber retrans dollars (as opposed to earlier must-carry where only ad dollars were brought in). OTA viewers (whether rightly or wrongly) are viewed by advertisers as less desirable. So stations are just simply not going to invest a ton of effort in a system that brings in a minority of viewers -- especially when those viewers aren't terribly valued by station management and ownership. Perhaps ATSC 3.0 will address this -- as pitches made to stations are touting the ability to deliver targeted advertising ... something that advertisers find more valuable than sheer bulk numbers. In such a system, OTA viewers could once again be valuable (and potentially more valuable than other viewers). In my area, I don't expect ATSC 3.0 until long after other larger markets transition. Hell - I remember only getting the Vikings in HD a full 2 years after most everybody else in the country was watching the NFL in HD. :-)

"In fact, further conversation clued me in on how much OTA stations don't value the OTA portion at all. If stations didn't have to broadcast OTA in order to keep the valuable spectrum ... they wouldn't. "

Trust me, we do value OTA customers. Most cable/satellite companies receive our signal over the air for re transmission. A few get us via fiber or IP. Without that transmitter we would lose a lot of customers, not just people using antennas. And we do take PSIP seriously. I manage the PSIP servers for a 12 station group. I get called if something is wrong.

When TVGOS went away a lot of DTVPal users started contacting their local stations and asking for longer PSIP guides. That was often successful - as I mentioned, KXAS used to load up a week's worth (although it dwindled down during the week until they loaded it back up again). But of course, over time folks moved on to other DVRs that either used an Internet guide like the DVR+, or just displayed a day's worth of PSIP like the iView and HomeWorX. As a result the demand for long PSIP guides dwindled, and most stations in my area (D/FW) let their guides slip down to the 12-48 hour range. (PBS is an exception with 72 hours or so.) It became a kind of vicious cycle: as fewer and fewer devices did anything with long PSIP guides, fewer stations provided it. As fewer stations provided it, fewer manufacturers designed devices to display it.

Then can you tell us the industry reason(s) why stations don't provide a longer, if not the longest guide data set that is possible? Since you manage the PSIP servers, what is the labor difference between providing 1 day of data vs. 7 days or 14 days? Also, as an industry insider, what do you see in the future for broadcast television as it relates to products like the DVR+ and others that focus on OTA television instead of streaming? Do you see ATSC 3.0 as the final nail in the coffin for such products, or a whole new ball game with new products that don't require an Internet connection to watch and record programs, and access guide data to schedule them?

Your viewers are lucky to have you. I'm a proponent of OTA -- I still believe it is a better way for local communities to be served by local broadcasters. But I also get that it doesn't have the same appeal to advertisers and owners. In your own setup, for example, if most of your pay-TV distribution was done through fiber or IP, would the OTA transmission still have the same value? Right now - it appears that the biggest value it has is for the ability to get programming to viewers who will bring in retrans dollars. Believe me - I wish OTA was held in the same regard as other consumption means. Over at TCF, I recall reading a thread from somebody working in television advertising at their station and echoing what I was told. Station advertisers and owners didn't have a high opinion of the OTA portion when compared to the pay-TV distribution. If your station ownership does - it is an increasingly rare environment and your viewers are fortunate to have you.

I wonder if most of the problem is in tuner support itself? Depending on which tuner I use - I see a wide variety of what's available. So when I see 8 hours of PSIP data for my channel -- is it because that is all that is available? Or is it because that is all my tuner will display and there might be more?

A side note about streaming: The darn kids today don't bode well for the future of OTA. I keep reading countless posts by the young-uns on social media stating that they would like to see a particular event (which is broadcast OTA) .. but the station isn't available streaming. Internet delivery and on-demand viewing seem to be the only options considered. In a rural setting - I get it. The absolute hell I've experienced (and currently experiencing) trying to get a system that gets the 3 available stations in my remote area (with transmitters in 3 different directions) makes me completely understand why people abandon OTA reception. In urban areas, however, indoor antenna setups would be ridiculously easy in most cases. Perhaps the mobile aspect of ATSC 3.0 will help in that respect - bringing reception possibilities to the mobile phones and small screens that demographic currently uses most of the time for their media consumption.

I think if that were the sole reason I would see that in the PSIP data I see on my DVR+. As @JHBrandt stated, our local PBS station provides about 72 hours of PSIP data. Other full power stations in our top 5 market provide about 40 hours, and some full power stations provide much less than that. Indie stations and less than full power stations are all over the map in what they provide. The capabilities of a tuner/DVR no doubt play some role, but I think they would just clip off the extra data and show what they are capable of showing if the PSIP data exceeded their limit.

I hope so, although I'm not optimistic. It would require phones to include ATSC 3.0 tuners - and probably antennas as well, since I doubt any antenna that could be built into a standard-sized cell phone could pick up even UHF OTA from more than a few miles from a transmitter (although SFNs, which aren't an option for ATSC 1.0, could help with ATSC 3.0 coverage). Remember, OTA TV is being pushed down to lower UHF frequencies which have longer wavelengths, thus requiring bigger antennas than the higher UHF frequencies used by phones. (As for VHF, fuhgeddaboudit.)

I don't see phone manufacturers flocking to include the necessary tuners unless they're paid to - and I certainly don't see cell phone users futzing around with antennas! Even a simple whip antenna would be too much for the kids these days

It's worth noting that mobile digital TV was tried before, first with Qualcomm's MediaFLO, then with ATSC M/H, but it failed both times. But to be fair, that may be due partly to those being separate services (sort of like another, hidden subchannel), which tempted their adopters to try to "monetize" the service by encrypting it and selling subscriptions, rather than relying strictly on ad revenue as with traditional TV. At least that mistake won't happen again with ATSC 3.0, because mobile service isn't a separate, distinct offering; it's just a side benefit of 3.0's modulation type (OFDM vs. 8VSB).

That's correct. The DVR+ is exceptional though. Since it was designed to display a 14-day Internet guide, it could probably display 14 days of PSIP too, if any station bothered to air that much.

But try the ATSC tuner built into your TV sometime. If you're lucky, it'll display not only what's on now, but also what's on next! Or try a typical converter box. The best is probably a HomeWorX or iView, or possibly a CM-7004: tune it to PBS and (if you wait several minutes), you'll see 24 hours of guide data.

I do have one old converter box (an Apex DT250) that would show up to 3 days. Dish made a DTVPal converter box as well as the better-known DVR; both go up to 7 days! And one (the Channel Master CM-7000 converter box) would show 12 hours. But those were the standouts. There may be a few others, but everything else I've tried was worse.