Channel Master DVR+ Owners Thread - Page 578 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17311 of 17432 Old 02-23-2020, 09:49 AM
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I like the microphone thingy on the remote ....

Looks like you're posting in the wrong forum.
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post #17312 of 17432 Old 02-23-2020, 12:01 PM
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You know... if I would smoke something prescriptional, I'll definitely find a micro-camera's thingy inside of flat remote of the DVR+
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post #17313 of 17432 Old 02-23-2020, 08:13 PM
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Just checked today and I have 14 days worth of guide.
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post #17314 of 17432 Old 02-23-2020, 08:49 PM
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Yes I seem to have 14 days of guide also but all my network channels ABC, NBC CBS and Fox all say unknown event during prime time, not very useful.
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post #17315 of 17432 Old 02-25-2020, 09:14 AM
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Here's a new one for me: last night my DVR+ said it was recording a show (it was an Unknown Event) but it wasn't recording it. I guess I have had once or twice in the past where it said it recorded a show but the show was nowhere to be found, I've just never caught it in the act.
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post #17316 of 17432 Old 02-25-2020, 10:43 AM
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Weird. Was the red light on during the event?
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post #17317 of 17432 Old 02-25-2020, 11:41 AM
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Weird. Was the red light on during the event?
I don't think so.
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post #17318 of 17432 Old 02-27-2020, 04:15 PM
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Yesterday evening I encountered the limits of PSIP data acquisition following a reboot. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you wait 25 minutes following a reboot the DVR+ will have a full boat of PSIP data for all the channels, allowing you to see how much PSIP data each channel provides in your broadcast area. About 5 minutes after yesterday's evening reboot I began recording a program on one channel, but watched a program on another channel. Programs on both channels were an hour in length. About 25 minutes after the reboot I pulled up the Guide during a commercial break on the channel I was watching live. I noticed that only the first serving of PSIP data had loaded for all the channels, and even then it was limited to program titles. No program descriptions had loaded. I checked the recording schedule and noticed that while all the programs were still scheduled, none of them had program descriptions.

I concluded two things from this. One is that when both tuners are in use there is zero chance of PSIP data acquisition for all channels other than the two that are in use, for as long as both tuners are in use. The second is that the first serving of PSIP data must have been downloaded in the brief time between when the reboot completed and when I began recording on one channel and watching another. It got me to wondering if the lag between when the DVR+ reboots and when it can first begin recording (3-5 minutes or so) is purposeful, and intended to let the Guide populate with a minimum amount of data. Sort of like priming the pump. It doesn't seem to have any effect on the scheduled recordings, as they were all still listed in the schedule, albeit minus program descriptions. But in the Guide they didn't even have titles, even though their grid boxes were still outlined in red. My guess is that they would still record without any issues, but the title may be "Unknown Event" in the recording list unless they acquire the data to fill in the correct title by the time the recording ends. That raises the interesting possibility that you could have a folder full of recordings named "Unknown Event", with only the time and channel to clue you in on what they are.
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post #17319 of 17432 Old 02-27-2020, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
when both tuners are in use there is zero chance of PSIP data acquisition for all channels other than the two that are in use
This surprises you? PSIP data is in the data stream. If a tuner is available, it can walk the guide updating PSIP data. If no tuner is available, where exactly do you expect that PSIP data to come from?
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post #17320 of 17432 Old 02-27-2020, 08:15 PM
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This surprises you? PSIP data is in the data stream. If a tuner is available, it can walk the guide updating PSIP data. If no tuner is available, where exactly do you expect that PSIP data to come from?
I'm not surprised by the fact that it happens. Just a bit surprised that the process is so much more layered than I thought it was. I was kind of expecting it to download the data in much bigger chunks than it does. In the first 5 minutes it appears that only the first three hours of program titles are downloaded. Then after that it seems that it alternately download program titles and program descriptions. Once completed, the program descriptions come and go fairly frequently, disappearing and reappearing constantly. But the program titles are static once they appear. Maybe this is to schedule recordings as soon as possible when the data is available. I've also noticed that while program descriptions show in the grid when the Info button is pressed they more often than not disappear when I switch to that channel, then reappearing a few minutes later.
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post #17321 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 12:25 AM
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When I got my first digital to analog converter, I was surprised to find it had an EPG. (We used to subscribe to TV Guide.) That guide was one channel at a time. You had to go from channel to channel to see what was on. I was really impressed with the DTVPal which did this in the background and cobbled together a grid style guide. I'm not sure I would want collection of guide data to take priority over watching or recording of programs.
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post #17322 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
I'm not surprised by the fact that it happens. Just a bit surprised that the process is so much more layered than I thought it was. I was kind of expecting it to download the data in much bigger chunks than it does. In the first 5 minutes it appears that only the first three hours of program titles are downloaded....
There is no "downloading" involved. The guide data is in the digital stream received by the tuner. The data for the current time and a few hours in the future is present in the stream quite frequently (and it's quite possible that the title data is more frequent than the description data), and then data further out in time occurs less frequently. Since the DVR+ is scanning from one channel to the next after a reboot, the chances of it finding the frequent data in the stream at the time it looks at a specific channel are higher than the chances of finding the less frequent data. As it gets out to 2 days or more, those records occur much less frequently in the stream (if at all). So you are right, it is layered, but the DVR+ has no control whatever over how often the guide data shows up in the stream. The best it could do is linger longer on each channel to see what data comes around, but that would be at the expense of getting all the channels' guide data loaded quickly.

Last edited by frank70; 02-28-2020 at 10:25 AM.
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post #17323 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 12:50 PM
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I'm not sure I would want collection of guide data to take priority over watching or recording of programs.
Definitely not for watching, but I think there is an inherent trade off involved when it comes to recording, at least guide scheduled recording. If the data is not there, a recording can't be scheduled. So in theory, if someone simultaneously records one program and watches another program long enough they could miss a scheduled recording. Of course, if the PSIP guide worked as it is supposed to this would be far less of a problem. And by working I mean constantly scanning when the DVR+ is on and a tuner is available, and frequently scanning when the DVR+ is in standby mode. The reason why I believe a scheduled reboot is the best way to keep PSIP data up to date is because the DVR+ performs the most comprehensive scan possible when the reboot completes. And that's true if the DVR+ is in standby or on when the reboot completes.

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There is no "downloading" involved. The guide data is in the digital stream received by the tuner.
I know. That's just me being loose with the rhetoric. I guess "extract", or "extract and curate" would be a better term for the way PSIP data is handled.

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The data for the current time and a few hours in the future is present in the stream quite frequently (and it's quite possible that the title data is more frequent than the description data), and then data further out in time occurs less frequently. Since the DVR+ is scanning from one channel to the next after a reboot, the chances of it finding the frequent data in the stream at the time it looks at a specific channel are higher than the chances of finding the less frequent data. As it gets out to 2 days or more, those records occur much less frequently in the stream (if at all). So you are right, it is layered, but the DVR+ has no control whatever over how often the guide data shows up in the stream. The best it could do is linger longer on each channel to see what data comes around, but that would be at the expense of getting all the channels' guide data loaded quickly.
It would be interesting to see the architecture for how GuideBuilder and other PSIP products handle this from moment to moment. Stations can easily set the length of PSIP data they provide to their viewers. But I wonder if they can also control how often the various layers are pumped into the broadcast signal, or if there is a static algorithm that is used. I also wonder why program descriptions are so transient in the DVR+. Maybe they are just low on the hierarchy when it comes to memory management, or maybe it's just another symptom of the memory leaks.

I did observe one other interesting phenomenon. There are one or more stations in the area that are adding/removing channels or doing other signal related work that causes my DVR+ to be 5 minutes slow following a reboot, though it fixes itself in about a week or so. Since my reboots occur at 6:00AM/PM the DVR+ clock reads about 5:57AM/PM after the reboot completes. In that 5 minute window the Guide shows "Unknown Event" for the current but incorrect time slot for every channel where the current program ends at the top of the hour. That means that the stations terminate the data stream as soon as the program ends, but this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the exact time on the station clock, which is frequently not accurate. So their GuideBuilder is apparently getting its time from somewhere other than the station itself.
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post #17324 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 02:06 PM
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It would be interesting to see the architecture for how GuideBuilder and other PSIP products handle this from moment to moment. Stations can easily set the length of PSIP data they provide to their viewers. But I wonder if they can also control how often the various layers are pumped into the broadcast signal, or if there is a static algorithm that is used. I also wonder why program descriptions are so transient in the DVR+.
Well, I looked this up and the suggested rep-rate for EIT-0 table (program titles and times, upcoming 3 hour slot) is every 0.5 seconds; for EIT-1 (next 3 hour slot) is every 3 seconds; for EIT-2 and EIT-3 (next 3 hour slots) is every minute. After that (12 hours), the suggested rep-rate for EIT-4 on up is every minute. The suggested rep-rate for the optional ETT table is every minute, and this contains program description text. So if the DVR+ lingers listening to a given channel for a second before moving on to the next channel, it might take a little while to happen upon and extract an EIT-1 and considerably longer to extract EIT-2, EIT-3 and later, and ETT tables (whereas EIT-0 data would fill in pretty much as the channel scan progresses). Of course, a given channel may not adhere to the recommended rep-rates.


Only EIT-0 through EIT-3 are mandatory, but I've seen stations in my area that don't even provide the mandatory 12 hours; and good luck on finding many stations that provide more than a day even though the protocol supports up to 16 days.
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post #17325 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 03:01 PM
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Atsc.org created a document, https://www.atsc.org/wp-content/uplo...roadcaster.pdf, which gives guidelines for things like how often the EITs in PSIP should be transmitted.

A little background: EITs (Event Information Tables) are 3-hour tables of EPG data. Each table describes a 3-hour block of programming starting at 0:00, 3:00, 6:00, etc. up to 21:00 UTC. (Every time in PSIP is UTC. Thus, your tuner has to know your time zone in order to translate PSIP data to your local time.) Whichever 3-hour block contains the current time of day is called EIT-0, the next 3-hour block is EIT-1, and so on up to however much guide data the station broadcasts. The FCC only mandates that stations broadcast EIT-0 through EIT-3 (12 hours, although much of EIT-0 may be in the past, depending on where the 3-hour block starts, so you may see as little as 9 hours of upcoming programming), but many stations broadcast more.

The above document recommends that EIT-0 be sent every 0.5 second (so twice per second) and EIT-1 be sent every three seconds, but that EIT-2 and up only be sent once per minute. That guarantees a quick loading of the current show's title (in EIT-0) and a reasonably quick loading of the next show (in EIT-0 or EIT-1), but if most stations follow that recommendation, it would take a full minute to download all the guide data it's broadcasting, and that would have to be repeated for every active channel. DFW has something like two dozen channels, so that would take nearly half an hour to download the whole mess. (But then, the document also recommends that stations provide 3 days of guide data. In DFW, only PBS seems to follow that recommendation.) If both tuners could be used at once (on the DVR+, that might be during standby, or when watching a pre-recorded show or using an Internet app) you could cut that in half. It'd still take over 10 minutes though. No wonder folks like DVRs with four tuners!

Luckily most stations do broadcast the "out" EITs much more often than that. Moreover, tuners like the DVR+ usually expect that, and don't sit on each station for a full minute when scanning in the EPG data.
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post #17326 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 04:11 PM
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After that (12 hours), the suggested rep-rate for EIT-4 on up is every minute. The suggested rep-rate for the optional ETT table is every minute, and this contains program description text. So if the DVR+ lingers listening to a given channel for a second before moving on to the next channel, it might take a little while to happen upon and extract an EIT-1 and considerably longer to extract EIT-2, EIT-3 and later, and ETT tables (whereas EIT-0 data would fill in pretty much as the channel scan progresses).
But that still means that if the DVR+ scanned every channel for 1 second every three hours, even if it is in standby, there should be no problem in keeping PSIP data up to date enough so that no series recording would be missed. Since I've noticed that many channels are not scanned when only one channel is being watched ot only one tuner is being used to record a program, someone really dropped the ball on this feature of the DVR+.

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That guarantees a quick loading of the current show's title (in EIT-0) and a reasonably quick loading of the next show (in EIT-0 or EIT-1), but if most stations follow that recommendation, it would take a full minute to download all the guide data it's broadcasting, and that would have to be repeated for every active channel. DFW has something like two dozen channels, so that would take nearly half an hour to download the whole mess. (But then, the document also recommends that stations provide 3 days of guide data. In DFW, only PBS seems to follow that recommendation.) If both tuners could be used at once (on the DVR+, that might be during standby, or when watching a pre-recorded show or using an Internet app) you could cut that in half. It'd still take over 10 minutes though. No wonder folks like DVRs with four tuners!
The "nearly half an hour" figure certainly corresponds with my observations, though I think we should be clear that by "channels" in this case it is the RF bandwidth assigned by the FCC. Though the DFW area has around two dozen active RF channels, I am currently on the cusp of having 100 viewing channels, and the DVR+ will pick up the PSIP data for all viewing channels sharing an RF. This is true, even if multiple stations are sharing an RF channel, as we certainly know to be the case in the DFW area. That would also mean that someone in a market with fewer RF channels wouldn't have to wait as long as we do in this area to see the maximum amount of PSIP data their local stations provide. But anyone should be able to calculate the time needed to see the full amount based on the numbers you provided.
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post #17327 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 04:44 PM
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Yesterday evening I encountered the limits of PSIP data acquisition following a reboot...
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... It would be interesting to see the architecture for how GuideBuilder and other PSIP products...
With the problem you found with obtaining PSIP data while both tuners in the DVR+ are being used for Recording and Viewing, and with the responses by frank70 and JHBrandt, I again bring up the subject of using Zip Code 00000 instead of a nearby zip code. I've checked 3 times since my last comments of the zip code 00000 subject, and each time the entire PSIP EPG appeared up to date.

I am not recording anything with the DVR+ and only take it out of standby to check that 00000 provided PSIP data for all chanels. I have not checked every time slot (only the current time, 3 hours out, and 6 hours out), and I use the Page Down key to avoid touching many channels. If my findings are correct about zip code 00000, it's use should eliminate reboots twice per day, and should eliminate the new problem you've discovered. Of course, I understand the problem of trying 00000 while recordings are planned, especially since this technique originated from CM!
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post #17328 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 05:06 PM
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Yes RF channels not subchannels.

Assuming the guidelines are followed, three seconds per channel would be enough to keep the guide updated for the next 6 hours (assuming also that the scans were done near the start of a new EIT-0). And that's all you need to make sure you don't miss any name-based recordings. Of course anything further out would be pretty spotty (just whatever the tuner happened to catch during those three seconds) but that kind of scan would only take just over a minute.

Still, you'd need a free tuner for that one minute every three hours....
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post #17329 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 06:02 PM
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Which is better?

So....as we enter March 2020, which is better/more reliable , Using your zip code/internet or PSIP? Or does it vary by location or other factor?

Indirectly Outta Compton
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post #17330 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 06:26 PM
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With the problem you found with obtaining PSIP data while both tuners in the DVR+ are being used for Recording and Viewing, and with the responses by frank70 and JHBrandt, I again bring up the subject of using Zip Code 00000 instead of a nearby zip code. I've checked 3 times since my last comments of the zip code 00000 subject, and each time the entire PSIP EPG appeared up to date.
My Zip Code is currently set for 00000, but I am still running the reboot sequence because I've got so many series recordings that I can't afford (well, technically don't want to risk missing) to miss. When the summer rerun season starts I should be able to bypass the timer and I'll see how it works for me. Or:

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So....as we enter March 2020, which is better/more reliable , Using your zip code/internet or PSIP? Or does it vary by location or other factor?
I nominate @crabboy to test the Zip Code theory. Anybody second the nomination?
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post #17331 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 11:27 PM
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I nominate @crabboy to test the Zip Code theory. Anybody second the nomination?
We have (at the current time) Dish, which includes local channels. I don't use my DVR+ for a lot. So if there's something I can do, let me know.
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post #17332 of 17432 Old 02-28-2020, 11:57 PM
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Lightbulb Combatting the Unknown Event

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Originally Posted by Greasemonkey View Post
But in the Guide they didn't even have titles, even though their grid boxes were still outlined in red. My guess is that they would still record without any issues, but the title may be "Unknown Event" in the recording list unless they acquire the data to fill in the correct title by the time the recording ends. That raises the interesting possibility that you could have a folder full of recordings named "Unknown Event", with only the time and channel to clue you in on what they are.
After recording a scheduled program listed as "Unknown Event", the title is blank, i.e., nothing. And yes I have seen folders with blanks as the name. They can be manipulated just as another folder's entry. What I used to do is edit the recordings after the fact to change the name to be correct or some shortened version.

What I discovered is that the name can be fixed before the recording. In the Guide where a scheduled recording says "Unknown Event", press the "OK" button. A selection list comes up for "Cancel the Recording", "Edit the Recording" or "Edit the Series". Select "Edit the Recording". The window that comes up shows the proper name of the show but it cannot be changed. Instead of selecting "Cancel", select "Update". The data, seemingly unchanged, is saved and the recording will have the correct name even though the Guide still shows "Unknown Event".

Likewise, when you schedule a manual recording, the name can be set before saving the entry to avoid a meaningless name assigned by the DVR+.
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post #17333 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 12:09 AM
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Lets me bring some tidbits to your discussion of building EPG by DVR/STB. My base is own experience in writing programs [made DLLs for TSreader] for parsing SI tables [PSIP].

Before you'll start beating me - yes, the DLLs are working on PC under Windows OS, I'll tell you - the DVR/STB have multicore chip with HW decoders of video/audio compressed streams. Perhaps low end, because each STB mfg want squeeze each penny out of each component the device. Economics !
So, for good grasp of the theme, we will accept similarity between those two [PC and DVR].

Now, the stream - TS. Transport stream.
Some obvious info about it: one TS aka a mux does reside on one RF channel (transponder for sats) and contain PIDs, eg separated sub-streams what are carry system info [PSIP] and data (time stamps, UDP for some, pictures for audio channels, etc.) and compressed video/audio for "channels".
PSIP consist many deferent tables. You could find more info in A-53 standard.

Here is different point for your thoughts - DVR OS simultaneously processing one current mux (or two, if there are two physical OTA tuners, or four ..) . It will decompress A/V packets of that channel(s) what you're watching/recording and parse PSIP tables same time. Question is how powerful CPU/cores to do that simultaneously ?
If there is a bottleneck, then FW developers using prioritizing mechanism and a scheduler/manager to control the tasks. But it should be in that time ranges/limits what define PSIP rotation and allow deliver smooth video/clear audio for viewers.

As for my DLLs, I have at my disposal pretty powerful PCs with multi core CPU supporting multithreading, so I didn't experienced problems with watching channel by VLC and parsing many PSIP/PIDs/tables as I'm wish.

PS. For curious minds, we could arrange simple project - I'll provide you new DLL what would give you stats of PSIP data as a compliment of TSreader parser of PSIP tables. From your side it will require a PC with Windows + OTA tuner [USB stick is OK, check compatibility with TSreader] + TSreaderLite + my DLL and your time and willing to dig into the adventure.
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post #17334 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 12:12 AM
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This is true, even if multiple stations are sharing an RF channel, as we certainly know to be the case in the DFW area.
Stations cannot share an RF channel. All the sub-channels on an RF channel come from the same signal so the PSIP data for all sub-channels is supplied when you are tuned to any of the sub-channels.

You may possibly get two different stations on the same RF channel, but not at the same time. This can happen with weak signals from far away where which one you get depends on the weather.
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post #17335 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by crabboy View Post
We have (at the current time) Dish, which includes local channels. I don't use my DVR+ for a lot. So if there's something I can do, let me know.
Pretty much the same thing @pachinko is doing: Unplug your DVR+ from the Internet and change the Zip Code to "00000". Reboot the DVR+ to establish a clean slate and to have the Guide fully populated at the start of the experiment. Then set up a few guide scheduled series recordings on a variety of channels--major networks, indi channels, etc. Programs that air once a week or less will provide the best results for the experiment.Tune the DVR+ to a relatively irrelevant channel that won't be used for recording anything. Turn off the DVR+ and leave it in standby mode for a day or so. After the waiting period has ended, turn the DVR+ back on. Without changing the channel, pull up the Guide and start paging though it to see if the PSIP data is up to date. It is important to not change the channel because doing so will cause the PSIP data to update for every channel you tune to. Page through all the channels for the current time, then click to about 4 hours later and run through the list again. If the PSIP data is being maintained you're off to a good start. If any recordings were schedule during this period, check the recording list. You can either watch them or delete them as desired. Then check the history, verify that no recordings were missed or skipped, then clear the History. Turn the DVR+ off and wait another day, then repeat the process of paging through the Guide to see if the PSIP data is current. Delete/watch any recordings and check/clear the History. Every day or so repeat this process. As long as the PSIP data is being maintained enough to ensure scheduled recordings are occurring as they should the "00000" Zip Code is doing its job. Run the experiment for 2 weeks and if no recordings were missed I'd say it was a success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahanner View Post
Stations cannot share an RF channel. All the sub-channels on an RF channel come from the same signal so the PSIP data for all sub-channels is supplied when you are tuned to any of the sub-channels.
They may come from the same signal, but channels from different stations are sharing that signal. Here's what we have in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex: KTXD is broadcasting on virtual channel 47, but is transmitting on RF 23. They have their primary channel and 4 subchannels (47.1 - 47.5). KUVN has a primary channel and 3 subchannels (23.1 - 23.4). They are broadcasting on virtual channel 23, but transmitting on RF 33--with the exception of subchannel 23.4, which is sharing RF 23 with KTXD. But KTXD assigns their "sixth" channel the virtual channel number of 23.4, so it appears in the numerical list with the other virtual 23 channels. We also have KSTR, which is broadcasting on virtual channel 49, but is transmitting on RF 33. KSTR has 1 primary channel and 2 subchannels (49.1 - 49.3). But channel 49.2 is being transmitted on RF 23, just as virtual channel 23.4 is.

So in reality, KTXD (RF 23) is transmitting 7 channels (1 primary channel and 6 subchannels), but two of those channels belong to two different television stations. KSTR and KUVN are transmitting 5 channels on RF 33, while KTXD is hosting the other two (one for each station) on RF 23. In terms of PSIP data, tuning to either virtual channel 23 or virtual channel 49 will cause the PSIP data to update for both of those channels since they are all being transmitted on RF 33. Likewise, tuning to KTXD will update the PSIP data for not only channels 47.1 - 47.5, but also 23.4 and 49.2 because they are being transmitted on RF 23. Now, granted, KUVN and KSTR are both owned by Univision, so them using RF 33 is not really a big deal. But KTXD, which is broadcasting a channel for each of them is owned by Cunningham Broadcasting. But in theory, all three of these stations could be owned by tree separate entities and doing the same thing.
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Last edited by Greasemonkey; 02-29-2020 at 11:01 AM.
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post #17336 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pachinko View Post
After reading Channel Master's reason for using Zip Code 00000 to get automatic PSIP guide data on all channels, I decided to unbox my audio broken DVR+ and try the 00000 Zip Code. To my surprise, the guide data MOSTLY kept up to date.

I did not use the DVR+ for several days (dim blue light), but when I checked the guide (by paging through it) it was up to date except for a few TBDs. I did not check every time frame, just the current and next time frames, but I did check all local channels.

I did the experiment twice, separated by 3 or 4 days. I did not reboot the DVR+, nor did I make any recordings that would ensure all channels were accessed periodically to force those channel to update. From what I see, CM is correct in stating that the ENTIRE GUIDE automatically stays up to date when the zip code is 00000.

It would be nice if a couple other folks can afford to verify this NICE (but odd) feature! If true, it would have been beneficial had we known earlier, and especially beneficial when the internet EPG goes away.
I somehow missed this when you posted it, but your experience aligns with @pilotart 's. It seems when the DVR+ is left in standby, it keeps the PSIP guide reasonably up to date. But @Greasemonkey 's experiment seemed to show that when you periodically turn the DVR+ on (even if just to check the guide), things start to go wonky after about 40 hours or so. IOW, the PSIP guide stays updated as long as you don't need it

What firmware version are you on? (PilotArt is on 115R.)
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post #17337 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 06:40 PM
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Stations cannot share an RF channel.
Well, it depends on what the meaning of "station" is.

If "station" refers to the enterprise operating the transmitter, you're absolutely correct. In a given market, only one transmitter can use a given RF channel at a time. ATSC doesn't work like FM, where the strongest signal is "captured" and weak ones on the same frequency aren't heard. If you have two transmitters operating on the same RF channel, you receive neither. We had that situation in DFW at the end of repacking, when a low-power station forgot to turn off their transmitter and blocked reception of a full-power station for miles.

But if "station" refers to the collection of subchannels sharing the same major channel number in a market (for example, 23.1 through 23.4), the FCC now allows what they call "channel sharing," wherein a station operating one transmitter leases some bandwidth to another station, so that one RF channel carries subchannels from multiple stations. For example, in DFW, we have 23.1, 23.2, 23.3, 49.1, and 49.3 all on RF 33. That's what @Greasemonkey was referring to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rahanner View Post
All the sub-channels on an RF channel come from the same signal so the PSIP data for all sub-channels is supplied when you are tuned to any of the sub-channels.
Correct. In the case of channel sharing, the PSIP must contain guides for subchannels from both stations.
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post #17338 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I somehow missed this when you posted it, but your experience aligns with @pilotart 's. It seems when the DVR+ is left in standby, it keeps the PSIP guide reasonably up to date. But @Greasemonkey 's experiment seemed to show that when you periodically turn the DVR+ on (even if just to check the guide), things start to go wonky after about 40 hours or so. IOW, the PSIP guide stays updated as long as you don't need it

What firmware version are you on? (PilotArt is on 115R.)
The DVR+ is running version 135R.

Just for fun, I'm leaving the DVR+ ON (not in Standby) to see if that has any effect. No recordings are scheduled, and I won't even access it for a couple of days.
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post #17339 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pachinko View Post
The DVR+ is running version 135R.

Just for fun, I'm leaving the DVR+ ON (not in Standby) to see if that has any effect. No recordings are scheduled, and I won't even access it for a couple of days.
Actually you can't leave it on all the time. It automatically switches to standby after a time and the longest time it can be set for is 6 hours. Also, when it is on, one of the tuners is always in use. I don't know how that figures into your experiment though.
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post #17340 of 17432 Old 02-29-2020, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHBrandt View Post
I somehow missed this when you posted it, but your experience aligns with @pilotart 's. It seems when the DVR+ is left in standby, it keeps the PSIP guide reasonably up to date. But @Greasemonkey 's experiment seemed to show that when you periodically turn the DVR+ on (even if just to check the guide), things start to go wonky after about 40 hours or so. IOW, the PSIP guide stays updated as long as you don't need it
It should be noted that when I did the experiment to test how different FW versions worked with PSIP I didn't have the Zip Code set to 00000. I also didn't leave the DVR+ in standby, nor did I run the experiment with no recordings scheduled. So at a minimum, programs that recorded would have populated the Guide for the channels that recorded unless there was such a long gap between recordings that the guide data was lost. Hopefully @crabboy will be able to duplicate what @pachinko is doing. That said, my PSIP guide lost data on channels that never recorded anything, and by the time I pulled the plug I had a sea of "Unknown Events" throughout most of the Guide. Clearly the Zip Code method would be the ultimate method if it works. But shortly after I bought my DVR+ I contacted CM about the Guide not staying populated and they never suggested using a Zip Code of 00000 to make it work. They actually suggested changing the Zip Code to an area closer to the tower, despite the fact that I told them I wasn't connected to the Internet. I am also under the belief that PSIP would work for a while if the Zip Code was set to any other Zip Code in the country as long as the DVR+ isn't connected to the Internet since that data is provided by the stations.
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