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post #2971 of 3322 Old 05-29-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck666 View Post
Grabbed a new 1TB vox model with life time for $285 last week.
Was that from TiVo or 2nd hand?
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post #2972 of 3322 Old 05-29-2018, 02:59 PM
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It was new on Amazon. I got the last one......

You have to check almost daily. They come and go. Last week, there were two guys selling for $299. I waited and got lucky. Nothing just now, either.

Good Luck
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post #2973 of 3322 Old 05-29-2018, 04:34 PM
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If you can wait for Black Friday(Cyber Monday), they will be on sale, if the last couple of years are any indication.
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post #2974 of 3322 Old 06-26-2018, 02:36 AM
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Not sure the past couple years are any indication. My first two Roamios were $299.99 summer sales (May) and nothing this year. The DVR+ was very good for TiVo shoppers. Monopoly is no fun unless it's yours.
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post #2975 of 3322 Old 06-26-2018, 07:32 AM
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Not sure the past couple years are any indication. My first two Roamios were $299.99 summer sales (May) and nothing this year. The DVR+ was very good for TiVo shoppers. Monopoly is no fun unless it's yours.
Good point!There doesn't seem to be much competition in the OTA dvr market.

Kind of suprising to me,with all the cord cutters.I get the streaming angle(I do it myself) but I'd hate to not have my antenna and Roamio OTA(or something similar)

If they do have a sale later this year I may pick up another.
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post #2976 of 3322 Old 06-26-2018, 12:25 PM
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There doesn't seem to be much competition in the OTA dvr market.
I think the competition is the market itself... when you consider the return on your "investment" DVRs are super cheap. There just aren't that many interested and you aren't going to generate interest by giving them away.

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post #2977 of 3322 Old 07-03-2018, 06:38 PM
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I noticed the other day that my Tivo guide data is only filled in to eight days out, even though I can skip as far out as 12 days. Could have sworn it used to be fully filled. Network connection menu shows successfully connected too. Has anyone else with a Tivo OTA noticed this?
Normal on mines here in the LA area ...

Currently goes out to about 5:00 PM on 7/16 (or near 13 days).

Roamio OTA ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk
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post #2978 of 3322 Old 07-03-2018, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post
Normal on mines here in the LA area ...

Currently goes out to about 5:00 PM on 7/16 (or near 13 days).

Roamio OTA ...

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk
I forced it to connect, and sure enough all the guide data is fully populated now out to the very end. Problem solved, and all is well with the world again.
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post #2979 of 3322 Old 07-04-2018, 04:27 AM
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I forced it to connect, and sure enough all the guide data is fully populated now out to the very end. Problem solved, and all is well with the world again.
If you want almost real time guide status, just check this thread on TCF: https://www.tivocommunity.com/commun....547931/unread
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post #2980 of 3322 Old 07-04-2018, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
Good point!There doesn't seem to be much competition in the OTA dvr market.
TiVo's main competition in the OTA DVR market is Tablo and, to a lesser extent, DIY solutions that involve a SiliconDust HD HomeRun network tuner plus additional software/hardware (e.g. Plex, Channels, etc.). Of course, all those products represent ways to integrate OTA TV into popular streaming devices such as Roku, Apple TV, etc.

A year or so ago, TiVo had been planning to debut an updated OTA DVR called the Mavrik and it was also going to be a network-based solution that worked with a TiVo app on various streamers, much like Tablo. But then that project got axed for whatever reason. Perhaps a victim of management/strategy changes after the company's integration with Rovi post-merger?

Anyhow, a couple of months ago TiVo announced that they will no longer handle manufacturing for any of their products. They said they've struck a deal with an unnamed consumer electronics firm to handle retail manufacturing and hardware marketing. (TiVo will continue to focus on software/service.) It's probably Arris, the same company who is manufacturing the new model TiVos for cable companies. Although with the retail devices, it sounds like they'll still be prominently branded with only the TiVo name/logo as opposed to Arris.

So with regards to the Roamio OTA, I guess the question is whether Arris (or whoever the company is) will just take the existing design and produce some more of them that are exactly the same or if they'll roll out some updated version, perhaps with an updated chipset that can better run the new TiVo Hydra operating system and various apps (possibly based on the Bolt platform?). Could they work with TiVo to come up with an Android TV-powered box (like the new ChannelMaster Stream+) that uses a TiVo app/UI for OTA DVR functionality while relying on Google Play to provide the app platform?

Will also be interesting to see how service cost is treated given that the profits for hardware and services will be going to two separate companies. For awhile now with the Roamio OTA, it's only been available with lifetime service included. But if I were Arris, I'd want to sell as many hardware units as possible, so I imagine that they'll be available without lifetime included at a lower price. Then you'd go through TiVo to activate the unit and purchase a monthly, annual or lifetime service plan.

I suppose it's also possible that Arris looks at the Roamio OTA figures over the past year or two and decides that it doesn't make sense to move forward with a product in that market segment right now. Who knows? Lots of uncertainty in TiVo-land these days...
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post #2981 of 3322 Old 07-04-2018, 04:38 PM
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Good point!There doesn't seem to be much competition in the OTA dvr market.

Kind of suprising to me,with all the cord cutters.I get the streaming angle(I do it myself) but I'd hate to not have my antenna and Roamio OTA(or something similar)

If they do have a sale later this year I may pick up another.
The problem is that the primary motivator for cord cutters is cost. Not everyone, but most people. Developing and supporting a product for people who do not want to spend a lot of money is not what companies do.

At the same time, there are competitors at the bottom -- from the $30 single tuner DVRs to smart televisions. Today, for instance, for a hundred bucks less than a TiVo Roamio, you can buy a 55" TCL 4k HDR television with a Roku interface. Plug a $15 thumb drive into this and you can pause, rewind, and fast foward for 90 minutes. It has a decent EPG and streams just about anything pretty well. No second remote, no setup. It just works. For $297. If you just put up an antenna to save on your cable bill, that nice television is going to be more attractive than a DVR.
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post #2982 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wizwor View Post
The problem is that the primary motivator for cord cutters is cost. Not everyone, but most people. Developing and supporting a product for people who do not want to spend a lot of money is not what companies do.

At the same time, there are competitors at the bottom -- from the $30 single tuner DVRs to smart televisions. Today, for instance, for a hundred bucks less than a TiVo Roamio, you can buy a 55" TCL 4k HDR television with a Roku interface. Plug a $15 thumb drive into this and you can pause, rewind, and fast foward for 90 minutes. It has a decent EPG and streams just about anything pretty well. No second remote, no setup. It just works. For $297. If you just put up an antenna to save on your cable bill, that nice television is going to be more attractive than a DVR.
Hmm, not seeing the $297 TCL that you speak of...unless it's the refurb, ship-to-store one. The regular one is $378. But, I digress. In regards to the tv or dvr being more attractive, well sure, you have to have something to watch content on. But, with people's lifestyles these days they can't or don't wish to schedule their lives around a television schedule. Thus, if a person gives any thought at all to "cord cutting" that includes an antenna then a DVR will definitely be a part of their plan, whether it's the $30 single-tuner or a $400 four-tuner is their choice. If a person is satisfied with whatever is being aired when they happen to sit down in front of the television or happy with just streaming content then they should have cut the cord a long time ago and a DVR is just a dust-catcher for them, anyhow.

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post #2983 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 07:26 AM
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The problem is that the primary motivator for cord cutters is cost. Not everyone, but most people. Developing and supporting a product for people who do not want to spend a lot of money is not what companies do.

At the same time, there are competitors at the bottom -- from the $30 single tuner DVRs to smart televisions. Today, for instance, for a hundred bucks less than a TiVo Roamio, you can buy a 55" TCL 4k HDR television with a Roku interface. Plug a $15 thumb drive into this and you can pause, rewind, and fast foward for 90 minutes. It has a decent EPG and streams just about anything pretty well. No second remote, no setup. It just works. For $297. If you just put up an antenna to save on your cable bill, that nice television is going to be more attractive than a DVR.
In my instance,as well as others,being able to pause and rewind for 30,60,90 minutes is just one of the things I need a DVR for.I like to be able to record and watch a show whenever I like,be able to pause or stop the show and resume when I want.Record more than one show or event at a time.

Whether I have satellite or OTA programming,I need a DVR.I do understand,most DVR's manufactured are a loss item factored into cable and satellite packages .I hope another player(ChannelMaster perhaps) ups their game to give Tivo some competition.They did before.
As I said before,If Tivo has another sale,I'll probably buy another box.
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post #2984 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 04:52 PM
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If you just put up an antenna to save on your cable bill, that nice television is going to be more attractive than a DVR.
After almost 20 years of DVRing... no DVR no watching OTA... it's that simple. At this point the image is so degraded (via sub-channels) I have almost abandoned OTA already. Yet another of my (five major networks I watch) channels has dropped to SD image at best. Down for "maintenance" one night and the next day the image looks SD at best where they were almost HD the day before. After a few emails they never even responded to the screen images I sent... For the heck of it I happened to look at my OnePass Manager and I have a whopping three series for that channel.
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post #2985 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
In my instance,as well as others,being able to pause and rewind for 30,60,90 minutes is just one of the things I need a DVR for.I like to be able to record and watch a show whenever I like,be able to pause or stop the show and resume when I want.Record more than one show or event at a time.

Whether I have satellite or OTA programming,I need a DVR.I do understand,most DVR's manufactured are a loss item factored into cable and satellite packages .I hope another player(ChannelMaster perhaps) ups their game to give Tivo some competition.They did before.
As I said before,If Tivo has another sale,I'll probably buy another box.
Of all the cord cutters I know, only two have DVRs who did not get them from me. Amazingly, when people who have an antenna come into my home and see a TiVo, DTVPal, or DVR+, no interest is generated. You and I are one type of consumer, but there are others. Those who choose an antenna over cable or satellite are less likely to spend a lot of money on set top devices.
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post #2986 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 05:00 PM
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After almost 20 years...I have almost abandoned OTA
Yet another example of the fading market for high end OTA devices.
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post #2987 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 05:31 PM
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Yet another example of the fading market for high end OTA devices.
I don't consider the $199 (what I paid) Roamio to be an high-end device... even at $399 based on its typical usage I think it's a relative bargain.
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post #2988 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 06:59 PM
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I don't consider the $199 (what I paid) Roamio to be an high-end device... even at $399 based on its typical usage I think it's a relative bargain.
It doesn't matter, you are no longer a potential OTA consumer.
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post #2989 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 08:03 PM
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It doesn't matter, you are no longer a potential OTA consumer.
Sure I am. If my TiVo dies tonight I'll be buying a "DVR" tomorrow. As my previous statement the Bang for the Buck is so high why not...
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post #2990 of 3322 Old 07-05-2018, 09:11 PM
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At this point the image is so degraded (via sub-channels) I have almost abandoned OTA already. Yet another of my (five major networks I watch) channels has dropped to SD image at best. Down for "maintenance" one night and the next day the image looks SD at best where they were almost HD the day before.
Use kmttg to view the bitrates of the recordings on your TiVo's. I would be interested in knowing what you get for the HD channel of the majors -- ABC, NBC, CBS & Fox.

I'm getting (out of Philly):
ABC = ~7.5 Mbps
NBC = ~8.2 Mbps
CBS = ~15.7 Mbps
Fox = ~12 Mbps

No question that the bitrate has substantially degraded on ABC, NBC & Fox from what it was soon after the DTV transition occurred. NBC is the most shameful IMHO -- they used to be ~15.5 for a 1080 feed and have dropped to nearly half of that -- with a very noticable drop in PQ. I have to laugh now when I read people post about the "pristine quality" of OTA.

One of these days I'm going to bring my laptop over my daughters house, connect to her TiVo's and see what her bitrates are for her FIOS feeds of the majors.

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post #2991 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 04:58 AM
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Use kmttg to view the bitrates of the recordings on your TiVo's. I would be interested in knowing what you get for the HD channel of the majors -- ABC, NBC, CBS & Fox.

I'm getting (out of Philly):
ABC = ~7.5 Mbps
NBC = ~8.2 Mbps
CBS = ~15.7 Mbps
Fox = ~12 Mbps
No question that the bitrate has substantially degraded on ABC, NBC & Fox from what it was soon after the DTV transition occurred. NBC is the most shameful IMHO -- they used to be ~15.5 for a 1080 feed and have dropped to nearly half of that -- with a very noticable drop in PQ. I have to laugh now when I read people post about the "pristine quality" of OTA.
One of these days I'm going to bring my laptop over my daughters house, connect to her TiVo's and see what her bitrates are for her FIOS feeds of the majors.
You are very lucky to get those numbers. I also used to get about 15Mbps for CBS and NBC. But that was a few years ago when they had no subchannels. Now you have this:
WPVI 720p 2 subs (1 720p)
WTXF 720p 3 subs
KYW 1080i 1 sub
WCAU 1080i 1 sub
My ABC feed is about 6Mbps. Since I have cable, most of the 1080i networks are about 11 to 12Mbps. My best feed is ESPN at 12.5Mbps even though it's 720p. Both my CBS and NBC channels have three subs now.

People wonder why I have an AVR connected to my TiVo but still have a 1080p television. At least it sounds good. Even though my feed has five 4k channels on their lineup, they have no signals. I predict that your daughter's FiOS will have the same bit rates for the same networks. Only Comcast has started to change their 1080i cable feeds to 720p H.264 so far. That hurts.

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post #2992 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 07:23 AM
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Use kmttg to view the bitrates of the recordings on your TiVo's. I would be interested in knowing what you get for the HD channel of the majors -- ABC, NBC, CBS & Fox.
I don't use kmttg and they are what they are... here is a response however the initial one was it looks fine from my house... since I didn't ask to quote his response I changed the call letters.

We are in the process of replacing our encoders.
Things looked much better when we were just sending out 2 channels: XXXX and HTSN.
Along the way, we added a third, the LiveWell Network.
Then we lost Livewell and HTSN but gained the 3 Katz channels.
So, yes, XXXX is jockeying for bits alongside 3 other channels. The new encoders’ algorithms will help with better compression, resulting in a better picture all around.
Stay tuned, big improvements on the way.
Trust me, I’m very much anticipating these improvements.
Thanks for watching!

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I don't use kmttg and they are what they are... here is a response however the initial one was it looks fine from my house... since I didn't ask to quote his response I changed the call letters.
If you get curious, there's a formula for MPEG-2 recordings.

size (in GB) * 8192 / length (in minutes) / 60 = Mbps.

My recording of Elementary is 4.37GB. That's 9.94 Mbps. Not very good for CBS.
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post #2994 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 11:58 AM
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With the new information of dividing a second time by 60 I get:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post
If you get curious, there's a formula for MPEG-2 recordings.

size (in GB) * 8192 / length (in minutes) / 60 = Mbps.

My recording of Elementary is 4.37GB. That's 9.94 Mbps. Not very good for CBS.
My market OTA:
KTCA=PBS=1080i=3.66GB=5Mbps Actually 6.1Mbps
KTCA=PBS=1080i=2.81GB=3.84Mbps Actually 4.68Mbps
WCCO CBS=1080i=6.41GB=8.75Mbps Actually 10.68Mbps
KSTP=ABC=720p=6.29GB=8.59Mbps Actually 10.48Mbps
WFTC=FOX9.1=720p=2.98GB=4.07Mbps Actually 4.97Mbps
KMSP=FOX9.9=720p=4.12GB=5.63 Actually 6.87
KARE=NBC=1080i=4.7GB=6.42Mbps Actually 7.83
KPXM=ION=720p=3.96GB=5.41Mbps Actually 6.6Mbps
CW=haven't recorded anything all year! Used to watch several CW(or teens network) shows but nothing interests us now.

All above using Joe's GBx8192/Length in min, something doesn't seem right

Impressions:
Very disappointed in my second PBS channel, less than 5Mbps I knew FOX was bad(also less than 5Mbps but at least I have a second option thats not quite as sucky

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post #2995 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 12:22 PM
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My market OTA:
KTCA=PBS=1080i=3.66GB=5Mbps
KTCA=PBS=1080i=2.81GB=3.84Mbps
WCCO CBS=1080i=6.41GB=8.75Mbps
KSTP=ABC=720p=6.29GB=8.59Mbps
WFTC=FOX9.1=720p=2.98GB=4.07Mbps
KMSP=FOX9.9=720p=4.12GB=5.63
KARE=NBC=1080i=4.7GB=6.42Mbps
KPXM=ION=720p=3.96GB=5.41Mbps
CW=haven't recorded anything all year! Used to watch several CW(or teens network) shows but nothing interests us now.
All above using Joe's GBx8192/Length in min, something doesn't seem right
Wow. KCTA has five channels, all 1080i. That's some multiplexing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Cities_PBS

Other than the low bit rate, is something confusing? Pick a program and we can compare file sizes.
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post #2996 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post
Wow. KCTA has five channels, all 1080i. That's some multiplexing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Cities_PBS

Other than the low bit rate, is something confusing? Pick a program and we can compare file sizes.
You said your Elementry was 4.37GB for a 60 minute show, you said that=9.94Mbps
In my market Elementry is 6.41GB(per info screen on OTAtivo), 6.14x8192=50298.88
50298.88/60=838 or what I figured must be 8.38Mbps......how can my file size be larger than yours but a lesser bitrate what is your formula again?

Oh we have 2 PBS channels(same company) in my market and also 2 FOX channels(same company).
The reason I listed PBS twice isn't because of the 2 channels.......Oh I get it, some of my recordings were made of regular PBS while others were off our PBS "Life" channel, which has many of whats on the regular PBS channel but at different times and several programs that aren't currently on regular PBS. That explains why I consistently had 2 different sets of numbers for PBS, one was for 2.1(regular PBS HD) and the other was for 2.3 or PBS Life.
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post #2997 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
You said your Elementry was 4.37GB for a 60 minute show, you said that=9.94Mbps
In my market Elementry is 6.41GB(per info screen on OTAtivo), 6.14x8192=50298.88
50298.88/60=838 or what I figured must be 8.38Mbps......how can my file size be larger than yours but a lesser bitrate what is your formula again?
Your CBS: 6.14GB, so 6.14 * 8192 = 50237.48
50237.48 / 60 minutes = 837.29
837.29 / 60 = 13.95Mbps

Not that bad. I used Win 10 calculator. I don't have kmttg loaded, but when I did they agreed (very close).

My CBS is WYOU with three subs. WCCO has one sub. BTW, 8192 converts bytes to bits.

Last edited by JoeKustra; 07-06-2018 at 01:10 PM.
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post #2998 of 3322 Old 07-06-2018, 06:54 PM
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Not the way I really wanted to update my OP but it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
With the new information of dividing a second time by 60 I get:

My market OTA:
KTCA=PBS=1080i=3.66GB=5Mbps Actually 6.1Mbps
KTCA=PBS=1080i=2.81GB=3.84Mbps Actually 4.68Mbps
WCCO CBS=1080i=6.41GB=8.75Mbps Actually 10.68Mbps
KSTP=ABC=720p=6.29GB=8.59Mbps Actually 10.48Mbps
WFTC=FOX9.1=720p=2.98GB=4.07Mbps Actually 4.97Mbps
KMSP=FOX9.9=720p=4.12GB=5.63 Actually 6.87
KARE=NBC=1080i=4.7GB=6.42Mbps Actually 7.83
KPXM=ION=720p=3.96GB=5.41Mbps Actually 6.6Mbps
CW=haven't recorded anything all year! Used to watch several CW(or teens network) shows but nothing interests us now.

All above using Joe's GBx8192/Length in min, something doesn't seem right

Impressions:
Very disappointed in my second PBS channel, less than 5Mbps I knew FOX was bad(also less than 5Mbps but at least I have a second option thats not quite as sucky
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post #2999 of 3322 Old 07-07-2018, 10:01 PM
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So much easier to just use kmttg and read the bitrate directly off the screen.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #3000 of 3322 Old 07-08-2018, 11:04 AM
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So much easier to just use kmttg and read the bitrate directly off the screen.
Agreed ....

Though I still want to get TSreader up and running once I decide on a good compatible ATSC tuner USB dongle to act as a source for the program so I can see all a broadcast station's PAT, PMT, and PSIP metadata

Anyway, for now the data rates for the LA market here as reported by kmttg for the big four networks are very good numbers I guess ...

KCBS-DT 2-1 1080i (CBS) - 15.59 Mbps

KNBC-DT 4-1 1080i (NBC) - 14.59 Mbps

KABC-DT 7-1 720p (ABC) - 9.52 Mbps

KTTV-DT 11-1 720p (FOX) - 13.7 Mbps

Note: KCBS has one 480i SD secondary subchannel (DECADES). KNBC has one 480i SD secondary subchannel (COZI). KABC has one 720p HD secondary subchannel (Live well) and one 480i SD one (Laff).

KTTV has two "virtual" secondary subchannels. One 480i SD version of the primary HD subchannel on 11-1. And one 480i SD channel (LIGHT TV). But uses the RF spectrum of KCOP-DT (on RF ch. 13), which FOX owns for them. And uses PSIP mapping to KTTV 11-2 and 11-3.

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