Mag MDR865, 867, 868 HD DVRs w/DVD Burners, Line Inputs, Editing, Rec Modes, USB 3.0 - Page 39 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1141 of 1176 Old 03-16-2019, 08:31 AM
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Blu-ray was pretty popular in Europe and the UK right up until HD DRM became mandated and recorders finally stopped including the recorder burner. Last couple of years they have only.. included larger and larger hard drives and no Inputs. Although they too only included SD inputs.

I dislike assuming rights management drove the recorders out of the market, not consumer demand.. but I tend to believe this is the case. Consumers of today would probably still buy a Blu-ray recorder even if it down resolution recorded HD content to SD, in fact people of today have gotten more tech savvy and computer friendly. Playing a video file and streaming off Netflix is by no means a simple affair.

Last edited by jwillis84; 03-16-2019 at 08:45 AM.
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post #1142 of 1176 Old 03-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
Blu-ray was pretty popular in Europe and the UK right up until HD DRM became mandated and recorders finally stopped including the recorder burner. Last couple of years they have only.. included larger and larger hard drives and no Inputs. Although they too only included SD inputs.

I dislike assuming rights management drove the recorders out of the market, not consumer demand.. but I tend to believe this is the case. Consumers of today would probably still buy a Blu-ray recorder even if it down resolution recorded HD content to SD, in fact people of today have gotten more tech savvy and computer friendly. Playing a video file and streaming off Netflix is by no means a simple affair.
I saw your earlier post before you edited it and was a bit confused on a few things you said. But since you changed it I won't comment on the other issues you raised.

In general people today might be more tech savvy, but that doesn't translate to some of the issues we encounter on this forum. The process described by zinger919 and solgato62 is not the easiest thing if you're not familiar with certain programs such as were mentioned. Just because someone can use an iPad or iPhone does not mean those skills translate to PC use. In fact, a lot of people don't even have a computer because they can use the iPad or iPhone to do the few things they need to do like check their email. But these are the same users who would appreciate something like the Magnavox recorders as they are fairly simple to use if you read the manual.

Why someone though would buy a bluray recorder if it could not fully utilize HD resolution does not make sense. The Magnavox already does this anyway with DVD's. If you're going the bluray route, then you would want the best resolution. If you already have a bluray player attached to a tv, you can use the processes discussed by zinger919 and solgato62 to get the files on the computer, and you can just burn them on a regular DVD to play on a bluray player and it will be in HD if that is what the original file was. Granted, you won't have the chapter markers, menus etc. but the file is still HD and regular DVD blanks are cheaper than bluray ones.

Finally, you mention that "Playing a video file and streaming off Netflix is by no means a simple affair." Do you mean on a computer or a streaming bluray player? For either, it is not difficult. If you mean to capture that file, that is another matter.
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post #1143 of 1176 Old 04-20-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zinger919 View Post
Here's the metadata for a show recorded on a MDR867 in DR mode:
Code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<item id="FU_A00010031002/" parentID="root/FU_00020000/FU_00020012/" refID="FU_00010136_0000010200" restricted="1">
<dc:title>60 Minutes</dc:title>
<upnp:class>object.item.videoItem</upnp:class>
<dc:date>2019-02-17T19:00:00</dc:date>
<upnp:scheduledStartTime>2019-02-22T23:30:00</upnp:scheduledStartTime>
<upnp:scheduledEndTime>2019-02-23T00:00:00</upnp:scheduledEndTime>
<funai:recMode>DR</funai:recMode>
<funai:discontinuous>0</funai:discontinuous>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:DLNA.ORG_PN=MPEG_TS_HD_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=0;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" bitrate="1567268" duration="00:54:17" size="5104594944" updateCount="2">http://192.168.11.145:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:DLNA.ORG_PN=AVC_TS_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="1280x720" bitrate="1500000">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_000001080003020016e36001_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:DLNA.ORG_PN=AVC_TS_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="1280x720" bitrate="750000">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_00000108000302000b71b001_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:DLNA.ORG_PN=AVC_TS_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="1280x720" bitrate="300000">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_00000108000302000493e001_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:FUNAI.CO.JP_PN=AVC_TS_SD_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="640x360" bitrate="187500">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_000001090006050002dc6c01_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:FUNAI.CO.JP_PN=AVC_TS_SD_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="320x180" bitrate="125000">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_000001090009060001E84801_SRO.m2ts</res>
<res protocolInfo="http-get:*:video/vnd.dlna.mpeg-tts:FUNAI.CO.JP_PN=AVC_TS_SD_NA_T;DLNA.ORG_OP=10;DLNA.ORG_CI=1;DLNA.ORG_FLAGS=01100000000000000000000000000000" duration="00:54:17" resolution="320x180" bitrate="75000">http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_00000109000906000124F801_SRO.m2ts</res>
 </item>
Note the 1st resource line (<res) is unique in that:
  • it has the highest bitrate
  • it doesn't list a resolution
  • it is the only one to list size= & updateCount=
  • it is the only one that lists MPEG as opposed to AVC and the only one with HD in the PN= field
  • the MRL http://192.168.1.132:55247/dms/contents/FU_00010136_0000010200_SRO.m2ts is 25 characters shorter than all the others.
That's what I mean by the short MRL. It doesn't have the extra 25 characters ("_" + 24 digit hex) that tell the 86x to down-convert to the corresponding resolution/bitrate. IMHO that's the one you want for downloads.

The trick is sometimes, due to DLNA flakiness or God knows what, you won't even see the short MRL. Not a problem - just remove the 25 chrs from the MRL as highlighted in the above bottom 6 resource lines & go with that.

BTW, I believe the 25 extra characters in the "long" MRLs are consistent, ie; they will be the same for a given resolution/bitrate for ALL titles.
Code:
res:     bitrate:     MRL string:
1280x720 1500000 ==> _000001080003020016e36001
1280x720  750000 ==> _00000108000302000b71b001
1280x720  300000 ==> _00000108000302000493e001
 640x360  187500 ==> _000001090006050002dc6c01
 320x180  125000 ==> _000001090009060001E84801
 320x180   75000 ==> _00000109000906000124F801
Conspicuously absent is 720x480. I guess that's why there's no high-speed dubbing to DVD.
Thanks again to zinger919 and solgato62 for their information regarding streaming/downloading files from the Magnavox 867/868 and also jwillis84 for his work and information regarding extraction of files from hard disk recorders.

I am using a Macintosh Mac Mini quad-core i7 computer, 16GB, Mac Mojave 10.14.3, but I would imagine that older systems should work fine for the programs mentioned here.

I finally got around to trying out zinger919's excellent explanation regarding file/program extraction from the Magnavox 867 (or 868) using my Macintosh computer. It does work quite well as previously explained. I do record all of my programs in DR (Direct Mode) so if you do not do that, your output may be different. Here's what I did:

-First use VLC to find the programs on the Magnavox by using the Local Network sidebar, then double clicking Universal Plug 'n Play, then the Magnavox model will appear on the right hand side of the screen, drop down the HDD, then All. Using the 3.06 version which is the latest one for Mac, not all of the contents on my Magnavox drive appeared. It seemed to cut off the last five or so as there seems to be a limit as to how much will show in the window. Also, make sure you have the URL designation checked under the View Menu/Playlist Table Columns so you can see the address which you will need to download. I then tried an older version of VLC (2.28) which listed all of my programs as well as the multiple URL's zinger919 mentioned in earlier posts (although not every single URL) so if one version of VLC doesn't seem to work, try another. Also, it takes a few seconds for the contents to appear in the window.

-Next, find the show you want to download to your computer. Just double click on a program using the short URL as zinger said when you have multiple ones for the same show. Once you double click on it, it should start to play in a separate window almost immediately. Here is an example of a short URL from my Magnavox: <http://192.168.1.65:55247/dms/contents/FU_0001000D_0000010200_SRO.m2ts>

The others similar to this one have much longer URL's and will be of lower quality. One way you can tell that they are not of the same quality is that when you double click one to play, it takes a good 5-10 seconds before it starts as it is being converted by the Magnavox before being sent to VLC. To copy the URL while playing the video in VLC, go the the Window menu, select Media Information, then General tab and the URL is at the bottom ready to be copied under Location. Also, under the Codec Details tab you can see what the resolution is to make sure you have the correct one. For example, a program recorded on a tv channel with 1080i resolution should be listed as 1920x1080 if you used DR mode.

-After you have copied the URL, you then need to open the Terminal program on the Macintosh which is found in the /Applications/Utiliies folder on your hard drive. Launch the program and then you are ready to download using the
curl -O command. For example, if I was going to download the example above, this is what I would have listed after my admin name (jkmini) in Terminal:

<jkmini$ curl -O http://192.168.1.65:55247/dms/contents/FU_0001000D_0000010200_SRO.m2ts>

When you press return, the process will start and a screen showing the file size and percent transferred will give you an idea of how long it takes. In my example, the program was about 60 minutes of 1080i video and two channels of audio and it took nearly 6 minutes to download with a file size a little over 3GB. The command wget was mentioned by others but that is not available in Terminal while curl is although wget can be added I believe.

-Once you have downloaded the file, it will be in your /Users folder where you can then edit it, copy it somewhere else, or burn it to a disc. Since I want to archive some shows, burning to disc is going to be used as I can also give them to older relatives who do not stream or understand some technology but know how to play a DVD or BD. As I mentioned previously, one feature missing in the Magnavox dvr's is dual layer dvd burning which came in handy for longer shows. But now that downloading the high quality files is available, you might as well burn to bluray if you have that type of recorder hooked to your computer as I do. I have an LG LGBE14NU40 model I purchased about four years ago and it works well but I have used it more for DVD and CD recording with some BD use.

-If you want to prepare and record to disc on a Mac, there are not as many free programs out there as Windows users have. But there is really only one you need for the task here and that is tsMuxerGUI. This program does not convert the files or tamper with the quality but prepares them for disc recording. Quit the Terminal program, and start tsMuxerGUI, add the file you just downloaded from your /Users folder or just drag it to the top input window, select Bluray ISO to have the program prepare the file for recording, then click Start muxing. It only takes a minute for smaller files and more for larger ones. When it is finished, you will have an ISO file ready to be recorded to disc. Mac computers have the recording capability built in to the Finder so all you have to do is put in a blank bluray disc in your recorder, right click on your iso file, and then burn to that blank. This takes anywhere from 5-10 minutes on average including verification of the disc. This disc is then playable on the computer but more importantly, on a regular bluray player connected to a television. I am currently using a Sony UBP-X800 which is also a UHD player and it plays fine on that.

Here is a link to disc recording for Mac and Windows users that also mentions some of the programs I use as well as others:

https://www.howtogeek.com/310705/how...-ray-disc/amp/

The only issue I encountered with one file was that when I was bringing it into tsMuxerGUI, it either didn't add it or gave me some type of error message. I quit the program and restarted and tried it again and it worked. So there is some trial and error here for that part but downloading from the Magnavox is quite easy. Also, some of you might have Toast for disc burning or similar but you really don't need commercial programs unless you want to have a disc with menus etc. You can add multiple programs using the Join command in tsMuxerGUI, but they will just play one after the other with no menus but if you want to fill up a bluray disc with a few shows, that is one option.

I hope this helps someone with the downloading/disc burning process.
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post #1144 of 1176 Old 04-21-2019, 08:51 AM
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Pandora's box

After a week or so of "production line" processing (mainly to get some free space on my '867), I offer the following observations:

  • You can have fast, hi-res, &/or compact videos. Pick any 1-1/2.
  • You will probably NEVER see all the titles on your 86x from VLC or djmount on a PC. Thanks DLNA.
  • Downloading a "short" MRL may seem slow, but if you try copying that same file from computer to a (eg:) USB stick, you'll see it really isn't. It's just a BIG honkin file!
  • solgato62 is right: you'll really want to edit titles to add a date to the name. It'll pay off later.
  • Those poor souls still burning to DVD on your 86x; with up-converted playback, you're really not missing that much.

I'm now using avidemux on a ~7yr old quad core linux box to trim, transpose, & compress MDR86x videos in one swell foop. It takes longer to process than a "real time" burn on the MDR & eats up ~360% (out of 4 cores=400%) cpu. Luckily that spare 1/2 core is enough to provide a responsive system, so I can let avidemux churn in the background while I do other things (like download the next .m2ts).

For a 1080i title, I typically run a 2-pass, avg bitrate = 3200 h264 video conversion, & copy the small audio stream (unless it's a music related title). I don't de-interlace 1080i titles & use an mp4 output container. The resulting .mp4 is typically ~ 60% the size of the source .mt2s.

Since purchasing a BD burner, I no longer down-convert 1080 to 720. However, I burn MP4s to a DATA BD, not a BluRay video disc. My BluRay player plays them just fine, as will most "smart" TVs, if you put them on a USB stick. I like the mp4 container since it allows "chasing" (start playing right after the download is initiated) a download. I've found downloading & chasing gives better results than streaming on old (eg: 16yr old laptop) hardware.

I typically use VLC to browse & get the MRLs for a group of titles - typically a whole folder on the MDR. Just select a range of titles, "Add to Playlist", then "Save Playlist to File" in .m3u format. I've included a q&d perl script below that I call "qdvr" that scans these .m3u files for a given title & spits out all matches therein. It spits out multiple matches in different colors & automagically trims "long" MRLs to "short" ones. For example, I download a .m3u playlist with VLC & name it "wget.m3u", then type:
Quote:
qdvr midsomer
it returns something like:
Quote:
#EXTINF:36066,midsomer 2019 0406
http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/contents/FU_0001014C_0000010200_SRO.m2ts
cmd is:
wget http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/contents/FU_0001014C_0000010200_SRO.m2ts -O midsomer__2019_0406.m2ts

#EXTINF:36066,midsomer 2019 0413
http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/contents/FU_00014700_0000010200_SRO.m2ts
cmd is:
wget http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/contents/FU_00014700_0000010200_SRO.m2ts -O midsomer__2019_0413.m2ts
If you'd like a copy, give me a shout & I'll send you a link. Won't try to post here because, interestingly enough, the CODE formatting tags break the code!

Last edited by zinger919; 05-06-2019 at 12:39 PM. Reason: interesting how [CODE] tags break code
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post #1145 of 1176 Old 04-21-2019, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinger919 View Post
After a week or so of "production line" processing (mainly to get some free space on my '867), I offer the following observations:

  • You can have fast, hi-res, &/or compact videos. Pick any 1-1/2.
  • You will probably NEVER see all the titles on your 86x from VLC or djmount on a PC. Thanks DLNA.
  • Downloading a "short" MRL may seem slow, but if you try copying that same file from computer to a (eg USB stick, you'll see it really isn't. It's just a BIG honkin file!
  • solgato62 is right: you'll really want to edit titles to add a date to the name. It'll pay off later.
  • Those poor souls still burning to DVD on your 86x; with up-converted playback, you're really not missing that much.

I'm now using avidemux on a ~7yr old quad core linux box to trim, transpose, & compress MDR86x videos in one swell foop. It takes longer to process than a "real time" burn on the MDR & eats up ~360% (out of 4 cores=400%) cpu. Luckily that spare 1/2 core is enough to provide a responsive system, so I can let avidemux churn in the background while I do other things (like download the next .m2ts).

For a 1080i title, I typically run a 2-pass, avg bitrate = 3200 h264 video conversion, & copy the small audio stream (unless it's a music related title). I don't de-interlace 1080i titles & use an mp4 output container. The resulting .mp4 is typically ~ 60% the size of the source .mt2s.

Since purchasing a BD burner, I no longer down-convert 1080 to 720. However, I burn MP4s to a DATA BD, not a BluRay video disc. My BluRay player plays them just fine, as will most "smart" TVs, if you put them on a USB stick. I like the mp4 container since it allows "chasing" (start playing right after the download is initiated) a download. I've found downloading & chasing gives better results than streaming on old (eg: 16yr old laptop) hardware.

I typically use VLC to browse & get the MRLs for a group of titles - typically a whole folder on the MDR. Just select a range of titles, "Add to Playlist", then "Save Playlist to File" in .m3u format. I've included a q&d perl script below that I call "qdvr" that scans these .m3u files for a given title & spits out all matches therein. It spits out multiple matches in different colors & automagically trims "long" MRLs to "short" ones. For example, I download a .m3u playlist with VLC & name it "wget.m3u", then type:
it returns something like:
Here's the script. If you're not comfortable on the command line, read no further. If you have perl on your computer, it should work without too much fuss. You can name it whatever you want (& will remember). Make it executable & edit as needed for default m3u fspec, dl program, etc. Even if you're not a perl expert, it's 95% plain english. Real perl/regex experts, please - no judging.
Code:
#!/usr/bin/perl

use Env;
use strict;
use warnings;

my (
     $argh,
     $prog,
   );

my $m3u="wget.m3u";

my $usage = <<"END_MESSAGE";

 this script groks a dvr m3u file for a
 show title & returns all corresponding MRLs.

    SYNATX:
 $0 <show name> [<m3u file>] (default = wget.m3u)  
END_MESSAGE

my  @Color  = (
   "\033[1;31m",
   "\033[1;32m",
   "\033[1;33m",
   "\033[1;34m",
   "\033[1;35m",
   "\033[1;36m",
);
my $bw  = "\033[0m";

# die ($ARGV[0]);

while ( $argh = shift (  @arg V ) )
{
 chomp $argh;
 if ( -f $argh  && $argh =~ /\.m3u$/ )
 {
  $m3u = $argh ;
 }
 else
 {
  $prog = $argh ;
 }
 chomp ($prog, $m3u);
}

unless (defined $prog ) 
{
 print $usage ;
 die("\n");
}

unless ( -f  $m3u )
{
 print (" enter a m3u playlist file to search \n" ) ;
}

open( my $infil, '<', $m3u ) or die "Could not open file '$m3u' $!";

my $ic = 0;

while ( my $line = <$infil> )
{
 next unless ( $line =~ /$prog/i );
 my $mrl = <$infil> ;
 chomp ($line, $mrl );

 # we need to shorten any long mrls like:
 # http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/conte...36001_SRO.m2ts
 # to:
 # http://192.168.1.145:55247/dms/conte...10200_SRO.m2ts
 my $mrlength = length ($mrl);
 # print "\$mrlength = $mrlength \n";
 if ( $mrlength > 75)
 {
  # print " mrl before: $mrl\n";
  # $mrl =~ s/^(FU_.*?_.*?_).*/\1SRO.m2ts/;
  $mrl =~ s/(FU_........_.........._).*$/$1SRO.m2ts/;
  # print " mrl  after: $mrl\n";
 }

 my $t1 = my $t2 = $line;
 $t1 =~ s/,.*$?//;
 $t2 =~ s/^.*,//;
 $t2 =~ s/ /_/g;
 $t2 .= ".m2ts";

 print ( "\n $t1, $color[$ic]${t2}${bw}\n $mrl\n    cmd is:\n $color[$ic]wget $mrl -O ${t2}${bw}\n");
if ( $ic == 5 ) { $ic = 0; } else { $ic ++;}
}
Great information but it seems like a lot of work what you've described and since the compressed final product is not going to be as good as the original, what's the point unless you're short on disc space. I prefer the highest quality possible. The Magnavox does a great job when recording an HD program and processing it to record on DVD but if I can have the original in 1080i or 720p depending on the channel, that's what I will use.

As for the bluray discs, I use the bluray ISO format in tsMuxerGUI since that allows for chapter markings while recording the MP4 file to a BD or DVD in data format will play in a bluray player but not allow for chapters unless I'm mistaken. Also, data discs don't start playing automatically like a DVD or BD will if you're looking for simplicity as I do when giving discs to others to use.
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post #1146 of 1176 Old 04-23-2019, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeldo View Post
Great information but it seems like a lot of work what you've described and since the compressed final product is not going to be as good as the original, what's the point unless you're short on disc space. I prefer the highest quality possible. The Magnavox does a great job when recording an HD program and processing it to record on DVD but if I can have the original in 1080i or 720p depending on the channel, that's what I will use.

As for the bluray discs, I use the bluray ISO format in tsMuxerGUI since that allows for chapter markings while recording the MP4 file to a BD or DVD in data format will play in a bluray player but not allow for chapters unless I'm mistaken. Also, data discs don't start playing automatically like a DVD or BD will if you're looking for simplicity as I do when giving discs to others to use.
Now that I've compared my mp4s side-by-side to the original, I have to admit, the original is better. Not so much in sharpness/detail but in color richness/depth. I'll have to look at other options, but probably not BluRay video. That would exclude over half my playback devices. The 3200 kbps setting I used for the x264 codec is ~ 60% the original bitrate (hence the ~60% copy size), but higher bit-rates seemed counter-productive to my eyes.

I like the mp4 format for its portability & the ability to start playing as soon as a download is initiated, but I'll either have to find better x264 settings for color, a better mp4 codec, or experiment with MKV & TS containers that let me copy the video stream (I wouldn't mind the processing time saved either). There's a lot to learn - probably a million options with containers, codecs, & settings & I'm definitely still learning.

Last edited by zinger919; 04-23-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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post #1147 of 1176 Old 04-23-2019, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinger919 View Post
Now that I've compared my mp4s side-by-side to the original, I have to admit, the original is better. Not so much in sharpness/detail but in color richness/depth. I'll have to look at other options, but probably not BluRay video. That would exclude over half my playback devices. The 3200 kbps setting I used for the x264 codec is ~ 60% the original bitrate (hence the ~60% copy size), but higher bit-rates seemed counter-productive to my eyes.

I like the mp4 format for its portability & the ability to start playing as soon as a download is initiated, but I'll either have to find better x264 settings for color, a better mp4 codec, or experiment with MKV & TS containers that let me copy the video stream (I wouldn't mind the processing time saved either). There's a lot to learn - probably a million options with containers, codecs, & settings & I'm definitely still learning.
I'm still learning as well but you know more about the technical possibilities than I do. Also, I just don't have the time to experiment as much as I would like with the whole process which is one reason why I have tried to keep the workflow as simple as possible. I'm just glad I can get those programs off the Magnavox fairly easily if nothing else for archiving in case the drive were to fail. Thanks to you again for your great tutorials here.
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post #1148 of 1176 Old 05-25-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_peele View Post
I have the 865 which takes a 500GB HDD.
There are two models recommended by Funai, the WD MQ01ABF050 and the WD WD5000LUCT-63RC2Y0.


For the 867 they recommend the DT01ABA100V and the WD10EURX-63UY4Y0.
For the 868, the DT01ABA200V and the WD20EURX-63T0FY0 are recommended.



For this 865, I used a Hitachi Travelstar Z5K500 HTS545050A7E680. (Because I already have them)

I have successfully used the Hitachi Travelstar in the Philips 3575, 3576, and Magnavox H2160.

For those systems, I installed a PATA to SATA adapter ($10) and modified the HDD mounting plate for a 2.5" drive.

You can also use the Hitachi Travelstar in the Magnavox H2160-A, the 513 and the 515 without the adapter.


I don't know if the 865 will take a larger drive so I just ordered a 1 TB Hitachi Travelstar HTS541010A9E680 to try to "upgrade" the 865 to 1TB.
It has a sata 3 interface (6GB) while the 865 uses a sata 2 interface (3GB). Doesn't matter.


You should be able to use an external drive without the internal one. They're independent.
I use 1TB WD Elements SE (They were on sale at Office Max for $49)


Hope this helps.
jon_peele Post #995
Read your post with great interest, thank you for sharing
your experience and SKIP procedure.

My Magnavox MDR865H/F7 500GB Hard Drive needs replacement.

Current OEM HDD Installed:
TOSHIBA 500GB (2.5-inch, 7mm, 5,400rpm, SATA, AF)
(below: from label on top of HDD)
TOSHIBA
Disk Drive: MQ01ABF050
Drive REV: ASP AA00 / AM001G
DC+ 5V 1.0A: Date: 16JUN2015

(Q#1.) In matching the (OEM) Toshiba replacement, how important is matching
the letters and numbers on the second line, Drive REV: "ASP AA00 / AM001G" ?
Does the replacement HDD, need to match any of the old numbers or letters?

(Q#2.) Does the "ROM" chip from the old HDD PCB (board), need to be removed
and installed on the new replacement HDD PCB (board)?

Thank you in advance for your reply.
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post #1149 of 1176 Old 05-28-2019, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoe View Post
jon_peele Post #995
Read your post with great interest, thank you for sharing
your experience and SKIP procedure.

My Magnavox MDR865H/F7 500GB Hard Drive needs replacement.

Current OEM HDD Installed:
TOSHIBA 500GB (2.5-inch, 7mm, 5,400rpm, SATA, AF)
(below: from label on top of HDD)
TOSHIBA
Disk Drive: MQ01ABF050
Drive REV: ASP AA00 / AM001G
DC+ 5V 1.0A: Date: 16JUN2015

(Q#1.) In matching the (OEM) Toshiba replacement, how important is matching
the letters and numbers on the second line, Drive REV: "ASP AA00 / AM001G" ?
Does the replacement HDD, need to match any of the old numbers or letters?

(Q#2.) Does the "ROM" chip from the old HDD PCB (board), need to be removed
and installed on the new replacement HDD PCB (board)?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

A#1 The Drive REV refers to the drives pc board revision and shouldn't matter.


A#2 No. Formatting the drive should take care of the matching requirement. (See below)

If you can't format the drive then do this first (Or if you can format the drive but the 865 still isn't happy):
1. Turn the power on.
2. Remove the disc on the tray and close the tray.
3. Press [ >> ], [3], [1], [0] buttons on the remote control in this order.
4. To perform the matching process, press [7], [8], [9] buttons on the remote control in this order within 3 seconds.
5. After the process completes, the result is displayed next to the “Status:” on the screen. (“SUCCESS” at success or “ERR24” at error.)
6. Press [STANDBY/ON] button to turn the power off.
7. Unplug the AC cord.


To format the drive:

HDD format is needed after replacing the HDD. Enter the Self Check Mode and complete HDD format by following the procedure below.
1. Turn the power on.
2. Using the remote, put the unit into HDD mode. Remove the disc on the tray and close the tray.
3. Press [ >> ], [0], [7], [9] buttons on the remote control in this order. The unit enters Self Check Mode
4. Connection check for loader and HDD starts automatically.
5. Press (stop) button on the remote control. On the screen, “HDD is formatted. Are you sure?” message is displayed.
6. Select “Yes” and HDD format begins.
7. When the initializing is completed, HDD & DVD recorder exits the Self Check mode and turns off the power automatically.

Note: The HDD format may take a while. Do not unplug the AC cord for approximately 1 minute.


Hope this helps.


PS - If all of the above is a bit confusing you could just connect an external drive and configure the 865 to record the programs to it rather than the internal HDD.

Last edited by jon_peele; 05-28-2019 at 02:01 PM.
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Excellent directions

jon_peele –

WOW, thank you so much for your detailed explanation and procedures for replacing the HDD in my Magnavox 865 DVR. I'm sure there will others to follow (Re: HDD replace), that will also find your information, most valuable and appreciated. Not being a Magnavox repair person, I find your detailed step-by-step, an excellent approach to cover all levels of users. All to often when dealing with high tech, replies are in high tech as well, and for the common Joe-the-Plummer (type), more questions arise than what they started with.
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post #1151 of 1176 Old 05-29-2019, 06:54 PM
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jon_peele adds, can use an external HDD on 865

jon_peele-
Per your suggestion, an external HDD.
Have added and using a *WD My Passport* USB 3.0, while I deal with replacing my internal HDD, my new 865 came with, but I don't find the recordings as crystal clear as that of the internal HDD. Had I discovered this brand new 865 had a bad HDD, I would have sent it back, but didn't see a problem till some 3 weeks after delivery, exceeding the 2 week return policy. I'll just bite the bullet and fix it myself, as I don't have much faith in Walmart.
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post #1152 of 1176 Old 05-30-2019, 02:20 PM
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Robertoe,
What is the Recording Mode set for? DR, FHD1, FHD2, HD or SD?
(Schedule Recording) (New Program) (Rec to External 1) Mode (in the upper right)
If it's set to SD it's not going to look as sharp.
On a 1 TB External Drive:
DR records for only 113 min's ( ~2 hours)

FHD1 records for 170 min's (~3 hours)

FHD2 records for 364 min's (6 hours)

HD 720p records for 904 min's (15 hours)

SD 480p records for 1437 min's (~24 Hours)
I record to an external drive using FDH2.
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post #1153 of 1176 Old 05-31-2019, 12:51 PM
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Magnavox 865 HDD replace

jon_peel --
Thanks for the (recording speed) reminder, I forgot about that detail.
Like you, my Magnavox 865 records on the FHD2 setting, with good results.

The new Toshiba MQ01ABF050 replacement ordered is in route, and I look forward to following your (post # 991 & 1149) install and format instructions.
Will post results following install, format and test.
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post #1154 of 1176 Old 06-01-2019, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoe View Post
jon_peel --
Thanks for the (recording speed) reminder, I forgot about that detail.
Like you, my Magnavox 865 records on the FHD2 setting, with good results.

The new Toshiba MQ01ABF050 replacement ordered is in route, and I look forward to following your (post # 991 & 1149) install and format instructions.
Will post results following install, format and test.
If you really want the best quality as it originally appeared especially in HD, you should always use the DR mode. Maybe there's not always a huge difference with some content, but if you're saving any of it you would want DR. You can always convert it later using a computer or saving to the DVD drive.
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post #1155 of 1176 Old 06-02-2019, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoe View Post
jon_peel --
Thanks for the (recording speed) reminder, I forgot about that detail.
Like you, my Magnavox 865 records on the FHD2 setting, with good results.

The new Toshiba MQ01ABF050 replacement ordered is in route, and I look forward to following your (post # 991 & 1149) install and format instructions.
Will post results following install, format and test.

In my post 1149 I said "3. Press [ >> ], [3], [1], [0] buttons on the remote control in this order."
I should have said Press [next], [skip], [3], [1], [0] buttons on the remote control in this order.
Also to format the drive I said "3. Press [ >> ], [0], [7], [9] buttons on the remote control in this order."
That should have been Press [next], [skip], [0], [7], [9] buttons on the remote control in this order.
Next is the [>>|] button just above [+] on the remote.
Sorry about that...
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Decipher SKIP codes for replaced HDD

jon_peele –
Since my last post, my new Toshiba MQ01ABF050 HDD replacement arrived,
and was installed in my Mag.865.
Following your directions:
1. Install replacement HDD.
2. Power On DVR.
3. On remote : HOME button > MEDIA MANAGER > (select) HDD MENU.

Slight problem.
Top choice: HDD MENU (grayed out)
Middle choice: DVD RECORDER MENU (grayed out)
Bottom choice: EXTERNAL HDD MENU (highlighted)
[NOTE: I disconnected my External HDD before starting the above 1, 2, 3, directions]

Procedure stopped, and unit unplugged.
Need to read-up and decipher what each SKIP code addresses: SKIP 1-2-3 / 3-1-0 / 0-7-9 / 7-8-9,
and figure out what direction to pursue.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoe View Post
jon_peele –
Since my last post, my new Toshiba MQ01ABF050 HDD replacement arrived,
and was installed in my Mag.865.
Following your directions:
1. Install replacement HDD.
2. Power On DVR.
3. On remote : HOME button > MEDIA MANAGER > (select) HDD MENU.

Slight problem.
Top choice: HDD MENU (grayed out)
Middle choice: DVD RECORDER MENU (grayed out)
Bottom choice: EXTERNAL HDD MENU (highlighted)
[NOTE: I disconnected my External HDD before starting the above 1, 2, 3, directions]

Procedure stopped, and unit unplugged.
Need to read-up and decipher what each SKIP code addresses: SKIP 1-2-3 / 3-1-0 / 0-7-9 / 7-8-9,
and figure out what direction to pursue.


SKIP 0-7-9 Format the Harddisk

SKIP 1-2-3 Check Firmware Version (The latest is 1.00.15) (There aren't going to be any more updates)

SKIP 3-1-0 Match the Main PC Board to the Harddisk

SKIP 3-2-1 Check DVD (Provides usage info)

SKIP 4-5-6 Test Modes (You don't need this one)
SKIP 6-5-4 Firmware Update (If you're at 1.00.14 You don't need this one)
SKIP 7-8-9 HDMI EDID DISP (You don't need this one)
SKIP 9-8-7 Manual Process Adjust (Sets up DVD+ and DVD-) (You don't need this one)


So, with the new internal drive installed and the external drive disconnected, do [>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9]
Try to record a program. If it works you're done.
I don't think that the HDD will be highlighted until you record a program. I could be wrong (bad memory).
If you can't format the drive or record a program then do [>>|],[skip],[3],[1],[0] and format if needed.
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Magnavox 865 HDD replace

jon_peele –

Amazing and Thank You immensely, for sharing your knowledge and helping with my HDD replacement project and questions. I'm sure over time, your How-To HDD Replace Posts, will answer a lot of folks as their 865/867/868 machines mature and need attention. Your SKIP code identification(s), demystifies many (previous) posts I've read in this DVD Recorder, AVS Forum.

Currently, my Mag.865 has remained unplugged these last 2-3 days, just in case you came back with a *Soft Reset* recommendation.
Will attempt below Format process tomorrow, and reply with results.


Per jon_peele Instructions –

[a] So, with the new internal drive installed and the external drive disconnected, do [>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9].
Try to record a program. If it works you're done.
I don't think that the HDD will be highlighted until you record a program. I could be wrong (bad memory).

[b] If you can't format the drive or record a program then do [>>|],[skip],[3],[1],[0] and format if needed.

LEGEND: For inquiring minds.
[>>|] = # 22 (Next) button > Remote Control > 868/867/865 Owners Manual > EN-12.
[skip] = # 3 SKIP button > Remote Control > 868/867/865 Owners Manual > EN-12.
.
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SKIP Codes Failed on Mag.865 HDD Replace

jon_peele –

Have tried each SKIP code suggested no less than 4 times each, and in different configurations,
from 2 to 10 seconds after start, and all SKIP codes failed to enter HDD or start format on HDD.
Codes Tried:


[>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9] –and– [skip],[0],[7],[9] –and– [>>|],[0],[7],[9] –and– [skip],[>>|],[0],[7],[9]
[>>|],[skip],[3],[1],[0] –and– [skip],[3],[1],[0] –and– [>>|],[3],[1],[0] –and– [skip],[>>|],[3],[1],[0]
[>>|],[skip],[0],[1],[3] –and– [skip],[0],[1],[3] –and– [>>|],[0],[1],[3] –and– [skip],[>>|],[0],[1],[3]

Thank you for your assistance.
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post #1160 of 1176 Old 06-06-2019, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertoe View Post
jon_peele –

Have tried each SKIP code suggested no less than 4 times each, and in different configurations,
from 2 to 10 seconds after start, and all SKIP codes failed to enter HDD or start format on HDD.
Codes Tried:


[>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9] –and– [skip],[0],[7],[9] –and– [>>|],[0],[7],[9] –and– [skip],[>>|],[0],[7],[9]
[>>|],[skip],[3],[1],[0] –and– [skip],[3],[1],[0] –and– [>>|],[3],[1],[0] –and– [skip],[>>|],[3],[1],[0]
[>>|],[skip],[0],[1],[3] –and– [skip],[0],[1],[3] –and– [>>|],[0],[1],[3] –and– [skip],[>>|],[0],[1],[3]

Thank you for your assistance.

Don't give up. It's tricky. you must enter this entire sequence within 3 seconds [>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9].
It sounds like you're entering the sequence 2 to 10 seconds after you turn the power on.

After the unit is powered on, wait until it finished it's boot up process, i.e. you see a stable channel on the TV.
It doesn't matter how long you wait after you see the channel displayed.

Then enter the sequence within 3 seconds, You should see the format screen appear on the TV. After it gives you the status, hit [OK] to format.
The [>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9] is the correct and only sequence you need to format,
Same for matching the main board to the HDD. [>>|],[skip],[3],[1],[0] is the only correct sequence.


It rook me several attempts (understatement) the first time I tried this on an 865. Hitting 5 buttons within 3 seconds is not that easy (for me anyway).
I had to think out how I would enter the sequence. Right thumb [>>|], left thumb [skip], right thumb [0], left thumb [7] and [9]
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Magnavox 865 HDD Replacement. Success

jon_peele –

SKIP code instructions (Post #1160), How To enter HDD Format screen = Success.
So what was different? "The devil is in the details"

Instructions on several AVS threads, in re: Replacing Magnavox HDD, SKIP Codes, *None, No One, Nada* identified 'exactly' when to enter the SKIP Codes? ---
[?] When activity is first seen in the (front) DVR Display Window ?
[?] While the DVR is "Loading" ?
[?] After the DVR is finished loading and is operating ?
Seems like a trivial detail, but was critical as I later found out.


From my computer experience, many computer service procedures require the user to enter (keyboard) instructions while their computer is Booting-Up (example: How to enter 'Safe Mode'). As a result, I was following that same (thought) process when entering the SKIP Code sequence; [to wit], at first indication of the DVR, Starting-Up and while Loading, which turned out to be wrong.


All instructions (including yours, until this mornings post) said, "[...] entire sequence within 3 seconds [>>|],[skip],[0],[7],[9]" , when in-fact it should have said:

(1.) Power ON the DVR.
(2.) Wait till the DVR is finished Starting up, Loading and Operating. (couple minutes)
(3.) Enter the SKIP Code Sequence [>>|] , [skip] , [0] , [7] , [9].
[Note] Take no longer than 3 seconds to enter the SKIP Code Sequence. If access was unsuccessful, try again, entering-in the sequence faster.
(4.) After completing the HDD Format SKIP code procedure above, Press the "REC" button on the Remote Control and record a short 10-20 second clip to the HDD, to initialize and activate the HDD. (that short recording, should show up in the recorded TITLE list)
(5.) Finished, and ready to use your new internal HDD.

My waiting till after the DVR 'Started', 'Loaded' and 'Fully Operational' (I waited 4 minutes after power ON), then entered-in the SKIP Code sequence quickly, allowed me into the 'Self Check' screen, on my very first try. (guess all those thumb exercises paid off)
From that 'Self Check' screen, I was able to Format my new HDD replacement, thereby making it compatible with the DVR.

The 'Self Check' screen also identified, the Toshiba HDD purchased from: OWC, was neither 'Brand New' nor 'Unused', as I was assured prior to placing my order. With a POH (Power On Hours) of 13,827 hours, I will be contacting OWC in the very near future.

Thank you, jon_peele for your assistance. I was getting totally wacked-out ... not from this replace HDD matter, but from sitting through 20 minutes of commercials to watch a 60 minute show.
.

Last edited by Robertoe; 06-10-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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post #1162 of 1176 Old 06-08-2019, 04:38 AM
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Robertoe - Glad to hear that it finally worked out. Like you, I use the skip commercial button a lot.
I guess that the skip code for matching the main board to the hdd is only when the main board is replaced, not the hdd.

I sold my 865 on eBay some time ago to buy an 867.
The 867 has two tuners allowing me to record two channels simultaneously.
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Magnavox 865 HDD replace

My Son claims that DVR's are old-school, and streaming is the future, but he has yet to reply when I compare his $175. a month cable bill, to my (OTA) Over the Air, Free. To each, his own.
(Sorry, getting off topic)

******************

One thing I would like to add, in regards to Magnavox Maintenance, for those who's units (all models) recordings are stalling, skipping or having issues, is to use the simple, "Soft Reset", which can resolve a lot of quirks with the HDD as it becomes corrupted from recording, and deleting over and over again.
Unlike a desktop or laptop computer, the Magnavox does not have free software available for HDD maintenance, even though the HDD should be defragged from time-to-time, or when issues arise.

Soft Reset, How To.
See Post # 3016 (01-27-2009) from Member 7558037 for step-by-step instructions.
Easy, painless and excellent results.

Last edited by Robertoe; 06-14-2019 at 03:31 PM.
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post #1164 of 1176 Old 06-10-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_peele View Post
Robertoe - Glad to hear that it finally worked out. Like you, I use the skip commercial button a lot.
I guess that the skip code for matching the main board to the hdd is only when the main board is replaced, not the hdd.

I sold my 865 on eBay some time ago to buy an 867.
The 867 has two tuners allowing me to record two channels simultaneously.
jon_peele, I've read with interest the guidance you've been providing as I have one of the 867 models (as well as a 535) which is working well, but which I know will one day need a new HDD. Fortunately, that day is not yet here, but your comment regarding the firmware update skip code that identified v1.00.15 being the last version for that model makes me ask whether your unit came with it or if you updated it from v1.00.14. If you updated it yourself, how did you get that *.dr70 file which Magnavox/Funai supply as the update (it's compressed within the ZIP file one actually downloads) to install? My unit doesn't recognize it as valid, and neither Maggy nor Funai will provide any further information despite repeated queries (and several frustrating phone chats) about a process that would prove successful.


Since mine has the v1.00.14 firmware and seems to be working okay, I've become resigned to leaving it as is unless you've got a solution. Thanks very much for all the good information about HDD replacement and skip codes, regardless.
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post #1165 of 1176 Old 06-13-2019, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhvance View Post
jon_peele, I've read with interest the guidance you've been providing as I have one of the 867 models (as well as a 535) which is working well, but which I know will one day need a new HDD. Fortunately, that day is not yet here, but your comment regarding the firmware update skip code that identified v1.00.15 being the last version for that model makes me ask whether your unit came with it or if you updated it from v1.00.14. If you updated it yourself, how did you get that *.dr70 file which Magnavox/Funai supply as the update (it's compressed within the ZIP file one actually downloads) to install? My unit doesn't recognize it as valid, and neither Maggy nor Funai will provide any further information despite repeated queries (and several frustrating phone chats) about a process that would prove successful.


Since mine has the v1.00.14 firmware and seems to be working okay, I've become resigned to leaving it as is unless you've got a solution. Thanks very much for all the good information about HDD replacement and skip codes, regardless.

Go to http://funaiport.com/upload/firmware...07_000.bin.zip Unzip it and you'll get the binary file (.bin)
Burn that onto the root of a blank DVD (no folders, no other files)
Just load that DVD onto the Magnavox like you were going to watch a movie.
You'll see a FW upload screen pop up showing you the FW's present version and the version that's on the disk.
Click Yes if you want to apply the FW update. But, before you do, read the following:

From the Magnavox website, an explanation of what the FW change does: "A program name of Title List may become the program name before one. Correspondence with an application renewal"

It's your call.
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post #1166 of 1176 Old 06-16-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_peele View Post
Go to http://funaiport.com/upload/firmware...07_000.bin.zip Unzip it and you'll get the binary file (.bin)
Burn that onto the root of a blank DVD (no folders, no other files)
Just load that DVD onto the Magnavox like you were going to watch a movie.
You'll see a FW upload screen pop up showing you the FW's present version and the version that's on the disk.
Click Yes if you want to apply the FW update. But, before you do, read the following:

From the Magnavox website, an explanation of what the FW change does: "A program name of Title List may become the program name before one. Correspondence with an application renewal"

It's your call.
Got it, thanks -- I'll decide whether to install later, but at least have that option which wasn't available with their *.dr70 version.
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post #1167 of 1176 Old 06-16-2019, 05:26 PM
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MDR867 processing tweaks

RE: processing HD vidoes from mdr867s. I was wondering why solgato62 was using handbrake to compress after editing with avidemux, since avidemux is capable of compression also. Now I know better. I struggled with the compression settings in avidemux, but never got the quality I was looking for.

With handbrake however, great looking compressed copies are easy, thanks to the built in presets. Not to mention the very handy "batch" mode built into the interface that lets you pile up as many titles as you want in a cue, with identical or different settings, & dutifully churns through them unattended.

So now my workflow goes like this:

  • record in DR mode on the 867. Only editing I do there is renaming & possibly splitting
  • wget the "short" mrl & and trim as needed with avidemux on the pc
  • convert & compress with handbrake. 720p mp4s in my case (480p for secondary channel recordings)


For a while, I was copying streams to a .ts container to maintain the recording's original quality. Only problem was I couldn't use that format anywhere except on PCs without converting first. The MP4s play on every device I have & with the quality of handbrake's compression, I don't miss "lossless" copies at all.

I don't worry about chapters since my players will typically fast-forward (& reverse) an mp4 at 128x. That means I can get to the middle of a 2hr recording in less than a minute. With a mkv format, that same player could only manage 2x FF & 1x reverse.

In the end, it all depends on your individual desires & equipment, but with this process, I have finally achieved contentment. Cheers!
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post #1168 of 1176 Old 07-09-2019, 08:32 AM
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DVD/Bluray media goes the way of the Floppy..

Verbatim was sold to CMC Magnetics at the end of June 2019.

It is uncertain that CMC will continue to produce blank media under the Verbatim brand.

As this is considered the last of the "good" media for DVD and Bluray recorders.. it appears the day has come when blank media will go the way of many media formats before it, floppies tape casettes and LPs.
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post #1169 of 1176 Old 07-09-2019, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
DVD/Bluray media goes the way of the Floppy..

Verbatim was sold to CMC Magnetics at the end of June 2019.

It is uncertain that CMC will continue to produce blank media under the Verbatim brand.

As this is considered the last of the "good" media for DVD and Bluray recorders.. it appears the day has come when blank media will go the way of many media formats before it, floppies tape casettes and LPs.
Here is the article with this excerpt first:

"CMC has manufactured Verbatim-branded optical media for a while now using Verbatim’s technologies, so change of ownership is not expected to result in change of quality."

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14597...rom-mitsubishi

And another:

"However, CMC has already been producing CDs with the Verbatim logo beforehand, so the change of ownership of the company will not affect the quality of its product, and may even lead to a price reduction of Blu-ray Disc."

https://www.elinfor.com/news/the-opt...ompany-p-11150

Last edited by jkeldo; 07-09-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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post #1170 of 1176 Old 07-09-2019, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkeldo View Post
H
"However, CMC has already been producing CDs with the Verbatim logo beforehand, so the change of ownership of the company will not affect the quality of its product, and may even lead to a price reduction of Blu-ray Disc."
That would be interesting -- if CMC continues to use Verbatim BD-R technology. I've been using Optical Quantum BD-R for years at half the cost of Verbatim BD-R. They have been very dependable, but if Verbatim BD-R prices were to drop down to match, I would give them a try.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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