FEEDBACK TO THE FCC: FireWire Problems with Cable STB's - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 192 Old 10-18-2007, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

Apparently WBZ wants the Firewire signal to be encrypted. So WBZ will most likely continue to send the rc_descriptor.

I believe it's CBS corporate policy. They were (are) big proponents of the Broadcast Flag.

The silly part is that the device that's probably the least used to capture content is penalized. I'd have to think that more folks are using ATSC or QAM capture cards rather than Motorola STB's with 1394.

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post #152 of 192 Old 11-17-2007, 02:21 PM
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I have contacted Motorola about this problem and they have stated they have no intention of removing support for the Broadcast Flag.

Further, Motorola thinks that they have no responsibility to fix it either. Technically i think they are right as well, since there is no provision in the repeal that states the Broadcast flag cannot be interpreted. Also, it appears the May 6, 2005 Court of Appeals ruling states that the FCC can't even regulate Cable boxes.

It also seems like it is mostly inserted at the affiliate level. Some of our sites always have CBS HD with the rc flag, while some never have it.

It would appear to me that the best approach now is to maybe engage the FCC to put out an amendment to regulation 47 CFR 76.1904 to include the use of a Broadcast flag as well.
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post #153 of 192 Old 04-04-2008, 12:36 PM
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ok, I got the SCIAtl 3250HD and firewire works to DVHS on all the SD and 720P HD Signals. For some Reason 1080i signals are pixelly and audio dropouts, I am thinking that the JVC i'm using is busted garbage so I am going to try a different DVHS and see if I can record 1080i shows to tape.
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post #154 of 192 Old 04-04-2008, 05:02 PM
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Most of us can't get either 720p or 1080i to work without freezing up:
https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=593271

You MAY be able to dump a HD recording from SA8300HD to DVHS....

The only WORKING Firewire box I know is SA3250HD (I was using Passport & now Navigator).
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post #155 of 192 Old 04-05-2008, 12:57 AM
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I was able to get FirWire to work from a Motorola 6416 cable box. It sent a PRISTINE signal to my Mitubishi DLP, and also worked to record on my laptop. It isn't something I use, I just wanted to play with it. I wish I could find a receiver that would output over 1394.

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post #156 of 192 Old 04-06-2008, 09:21 AM
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What service provider do you have. I have no end of trouble with COMCAST eastern PA with their "ignorance" of the firewire port. FCC compliance? BS They provide a port that is undependable in content with their DVR functions. I am using it for the most benign device. Not a computer, no bit torrent, just a digital VHS deck from JVC that works well. Comments?
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post #157 of 192 Old 04-08-2008, 07:49 AM
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I had Insight, which is half-owned by Comcast or something. They don't support the Firewire port, but it worked fine. It just will NOT send any DVR or guide information. It is pure audio and video. That's all. That is a function in the box. IDK if any software changes would change that.

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post #158 of 192 Old 05-13-2008, 09:11 AM
 
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I have 2 Motorola DCH 6200's connected via firewire to MythTV, and they work near-flawlessly (occasionally channel-change to a movie channel takes 2 tries). I requested STB's with enabled fw ports when I ordered HD service from Mediacom (in NE NC), and even though the salesman or the guy that installed them didn't know what I was talking about, they worked without any further interaction with Mediacom.

Nothing appears to be 5c encrypted (I can watch/record all channels including premium) with the possible exception of the "Music Choice" channels which I'm unable to tune. This could be due to the fact that the data rate I'm getting from those channels is only 10% as fast as everything else, though. Not a big deal, since when I want to listen to music, I'll play an Internet stream.

I've been very pleased with Mediacom.
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post #159 of 192 Old 05-16-2008, 11:20 AM
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I've been recording over firewire to my JVC HDM5000 D-VHS since Jan. 2005, using one 6412, five 3412s, and one 3416. Every box I've used from Comcast has had firewire enabled. With the 3400 series, once I regain the handshake between the D-VHS and DVR by unplugging the DVR and plugging back in again, I can record multiple recordings and can fast-forward or rewind programs on the DVR and re-sync the audio and video for recording just by stopping the program and starting it again, which allows me to record multiple portions of shows easily. I can also watch D-VHS tapes without losing the hanshake. But the next day if I want to record further, I have to unplug the DVR again to regain the handshake. I usually bunch recordings to my D-VHS when I don't mind losing the guide info for a day.

When I had a 6412, I didn't have to unplug the DVR to regain the handshake -- I had to turn the power off to both the 6412 and D-VHS, and then turn the power on first for the 6412 and then the D-VHS, and every two months or so when that didn't work unplug and plug -- but it was easier to lose the handshake initially, as any playing of a tape would cause it to be lost, and any fast-forwarding or rewinding on the 6412 would lose it as well. still, I could always get a handshake and record. A firmware update in Nov. 2006 all but ruined the 6412, and I've only used 3400 series DVRs since.

Comcast (Berkeley, CA)
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post #160 of 192 Old 05-21-2008, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

The only WORKING Firewire box I know is SA3250HD (I was using Passport & now Navigator).

I spend 2 hours discussing the matter with TimeWarnerCable in Cincinnati since they disabled the Firewire ports on my SA3250HS stbs by upgrading from Passport to Navigator 2 weeks ago:
  1. TWC says that I shouldn't had the Firewire port enabled to begin with.
  2. TWC says that the FCC regulation is BS and that they don't have to comply to regulation 47 CFR 76.640.
  3. Finally, I have a PVR MCE2005 setup that isn't capable of changing double digit channels when the two digits are the same (i.e. 77, etc.)
  4. I can't use Firewire to at least change channel in a more reliable way anymore.
Thoughts?

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post #161 of 192 Old 05-24-2008, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postal64 View Post

Thoughts?

TWC = The Entertainment Industry (TEI).

TEI doesn't care about laws except to abuse them to sue Grandma for accidentally hearing a song or seeing a show somewhere that she didn't pay for (even though someone else already paid for it).

TEI only wants to rob you and tell you what to think.

TEI is gay and does many gay things like this.
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post #162 of 192 Old 06-20-2008, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by postal64 View Post


TWC says that the FCC regulation is BS and that they don't have to comply to regulation 47 CFR 76.640.

They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.
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post #163 of 192 Old 06-25-2008, 08:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toadtaste View Post

They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.

LOL, you're right. The FCC has absolutely NO authority over the cable companies whatsoever because the cable companies don't communicate anything at all.

So what are we to do? Boycott the Entertainment Industry? LOL, let's shut down all of our prisons while we're at it...I don't have a problem with releasing thousands of murderers onto the streets, do you? As long as they're not murdering *ME*, right?

What's wrong with murder, anyway? You got a scientific explanation to back that up or just something written in a book of fairy-tales?

(See how easy this is?)
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post #164 of 192 Old 06-26-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toadtaste View Post

They are correct on this one. When the FCC tried to force the Broadcast flag to be implemented on every Cable Box, it was determined that the FCC has NO authority over Cable Boxes at all.

No, they determined no such thing. For one thing, the court case was about consumer electronics in general, not (specifically) cable boxes - for instance, D-VHS VCRs, tuners for computers, etc. More importantly, the regulation that was struck down tried to forbid anyone from manufacturing and selling devices that didn't honor the broadcast flag, which was deemed beyond the FCC's authority. However, they've always had the authority to issue regulations for cable companies, and this decision doesn't change that. So, while they can't really forbid someone from making cable boxes that, say, don't support firewire, they do have the authority to forbid cable companies from using them (or as the firewire regulation actually says, from offering only such boxes).
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post #165 of 192 Old 07-02-2008, 12:08 PM
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One of the reasonings provided for rejecting the broadcast flag case was that(quoting the case) "Congress never conferred authority on the FCC to regulate consumers' use of television receiver apparatus after the completion of broadcast transmissions."

I don't argue that the cable companies are regulated, they of course are. It is the boxes themselves that are leased out i question the regulation of. I would include the boxes that the cable companies provide as part of the repeal, as the FCC was attempting to force these in specific to respect the broadcast flag.
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post #166 of 192 Old 07-02-2008, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toadtaste View Post

One of the reasonings provided for rejecting the broadcast flag case was that(quoting the case) "Congress never conferred authority on the FCC to regulate consumers' use of television receiver apparatus after the completion of broadcast transmissions."

Note that they refer specifically to "broadcast transmissions." The case was about the broadcast flag that was intended specifically for over-the-air transmissions (cable already had its own copy protection, 5C).

Quote:


I would include the boxes that the cable companies provide as part of the repeal, as the FCC was attempting to force these in specific to respect the broadcast flag.

Actually they weren't trying to force them in specific to respect the broadcast flag - it was to be any electronic device for receiving TV transmissions. Given the FCC's authority to regulate a wide variety of things about the cable industry, I'm certain you'd have to go to court to determine whether this ruling applies to cable boxes or not. (Your argument would be one side, the other would be that the FCC can regulate cable and that their authority over cable boxes comes from that). I agree that your argument could be seen as correct and you might win the case, but I do think it would require a new case - the existing ruling isn't specific enough with respect to cable boxes to make this a settled issue for them.
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post #167 of 192 Old 07-03-2008, 12:37 PM
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I guess i'm just speculating as to why a leased cable box is no longer required to have a 1394 functioning and why this is pretty much a dead thread as far as communicating issues to the FCC about it.

I guess the other question would be why the FCC would want the 1394 to be functional but then try to "remotely" disable it.

Anyway i know cable companies are buying settop devices that do not have 1394, disabling it by default if it does as well as television stations requiring that the 1394 is turned off to provide service.
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post #168 of 192 Old 07-05-2008, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftjab View Post

I've been recording over firewire to my JVC HDM5000 D-VHS since Jan. 2005, using one 6412, five 3412s, and one 3416. Every box I've used from Comcast has had firewire enabled. With the 3400 series, once I regain the handshake between the D-VHS and DVR by unplugging the DVR and plugging back in again, I can record multiple recordings and can fast-forward or rewind programs on the DVR and re-sync the audio and video for recording just by stopping the program and starting it again, which allows me to record multiple portions of shows easily. I can also watch D-VHS tapes without losing the hanshake. But the next day if I want to record further, I have to unplug the DVR again to regain the handshake. I usually bunch recordings to my D-VHS when I don't mind losing the guide info for a day.

When I had a 6412, I didn't have to unplug the DVR to regain the handshake -- I had to turn the power off to both the 6412 and D-VHS, and then turn the power on first for the 6412 and then the D-VHS, and every two months or so when that didn't work unplug and plug -- but it was easier to lose the handshake initially, as any playing of a tape would cause it to be lost, and any fast-forwarding or rewinding on the 6412 would lose it as well. still, I could always get a handshake and record. A firmware update in Nov. 2006 all but ruined the 6412, and I've only used 3400 series DVRs since.

Your response describes a system very close to mine. Was a 6412 and now a 3416. JVC recorder is HM-DH5U. Whenever I got it working the recordings were fine. Lot's of opportunities for loss of control. TV is large screen Philips LCOS that has been superb on all inputs. I only use the Component output of the JVC to watch, in order to avoid HDMI complications. The issue that has been impossible to fix on this one or our other combo of a 6416 and a HMDH40000U, is lack of voice sync with the video. The voice is at least 1 sec late. Fine on screen but permanently out of sync on the recording. Hit or miss? Less than 10% of the time are we lucky. Now the 6416 won't record at all on the 40000. The HMD5 is in for repair now that it won't record/play or pass any signal thru. It shows the functions on the screen but no video or sound. Before that happened the firewire was the bad guy on sound. Is the voice sync over firewire a Motorola/COMCAST problem? [email protected]
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post #169 of 192 Old 07-05-2008, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toadtaste View Post

I guess i'm just speculating as to why a leased cable box is no longer required to have a 1394 functioning and why this is pretty much a dead thread as far as communicating issues to the FCC about it.

It was never required that all cable boxes have 1394, only that the cable company give you a cable box with it if you ask for one. That requirement is still place, it's just that many cable companies are not following it (and the FCC apparently can't be bothered to enforce it).

Quote:


I guess the other question would be why the FCC would want the 1394 to be functional but then try to "remotely" disable it.

Are you referring to the broadcast flag? They wanted a way to let you record some things but not others. For cable, there has always been a way to to do this, which is the 5C copy protection mechanism. They can mark programs as "copy freely," "copy once," or "copy never." The broadcast flag was a way to extend this to broadcast TV.

Quote:


Anyway i know cable companies are buying settop devices that do not have 1394, disabling it by default if it does as well as television stations requiring that the 1394 is turned off to provide service.

The cable companies don't want to provide support for any problems with 1394, and since they're not required to give it to you unless you ask for it, the default setup is to not have it or to disable it.

I believe it's true that some channels (although not actually very many) do request copy protection, but legally only pay-per-view and video-on-demand channels can be protected with "copy never," meaning that 1394 can only be completely disabled for those. The most restrictive copy protection that other channels can apply is "copy once," meaning that you could record from those channels onto, for instance, a D-VHS recorder, but you could not then make a second-generation copy from the tape.

The bottom line is that very few people are using (or trying to use) 1394, so there aren't enough people complaining to get any attention either from the cable companies or from the FCC. It's rather sad because for a lot of people it means the end of the ability to record cable TV to removable media.
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post #170 of 192 Old 07-09-2008, 03:26 PM
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Full disclosure: I am too technologically-challenged to comprehend a great of this thread - though that hasn't stopped me from being engrossed in it. My recording objectives are fairly straightforward; there is an occasional show that I record to DVR and that I would like to archive while minimizing analogue transfers. When I discovered that my Motorola 3412 had two Firewire ports, I (naively) thought that I could simply connect to my mini dv cam to record and then archive the tape. Hasn't worked - either for material on the DVR - or when I try live on any channel. On the contrary, one port at least does no harm…the other causes the sound to disappear. The Comcast feedback was 1394 ports are enabled but not supported.
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post #171 of 192 Old 07-09-2008, 03:49 PM
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Unfortunately DV is different from the format used for digital TV. Because of this, even though both the cable box and mini DV camcorder both use firewire, they won't work together because they don't "speak the same language" over it, so to speak.
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post #172 of 192 Old 07-09-2008, 07:03 PM
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Thanks. I appreciate the info - even if it wasn't the result I was hoping for.

So, is my best (and only) archive plan B to go S video to the cam? (Heretofore, I've used composite connections to save to disc or to tape.)
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post #173 of 192 Old 07-09-2008, 08:18 PM
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If you have a computer with 1394, the channel is not copy protected, and you can get around the various problems described in this thread, then possibly you could record to the computer. (You could even then convert the recording to DV and copy it to tape if you wanted to.) But if you want an easy way to do it, that probably won't be such a good option.

The only easy way I can think of is what you suggested, record from s-video.
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post #174 of 192 Old 10-10-2008, 01:06 PM
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Everything was working fine until recently. I could transfer from Comcast DVR to JVC d-vhs. Now if I try to even watch the dvr recording with the JVC set to firewire input I get a black screen or the image will remain frozen. As soon as I change inputs on the JVC playback on DVR resumes. While black screen is on for DVR playback and I switch TV to JVC input I see the DVR recording playing back in HD but without any audio.I checked Comcast secret menu and it hasn't changed with regard to firewire as best as I can tell. I can still record live HD off of cable box and ON DEMAND. What I end up doing is going to my sister's house to offload HD off her Motorola box. Same box but different cable company. Only the usual handshake problems. Anyone have the same problem recently?
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post #175 of 192 Old 10-28-2008, 06:39 AM
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Hi have been using the Firewire form my Comcast HD box (non-DVR) for a long time. However, it looks like my box has now a hardware issue. Keeps restarting.
What is the latest model HD box (non-DVR) from Comcast that I want and has a working Firewire port?
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post #176 of 192 Old 10-28-2008, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boothman View Post

I checked Comcast secret menu and it hasn't changed with regard to firewire as best as I can tell.

How does one access the secret menu on the Scientific Atlanta boxes?
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post #177 of 192 Old 10-28-2008, 06:11 PM
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A friend of mine has Comcast cable with a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 that contains two firewire jacks. This box is a 480I standard definition DVR box with two firewire jacks. When I tried to connect a D-VHS machine I soon discovered that both the firewire jacks on the cable box are disabled. I contacted Comcast customer service technician to see if they would enable the firewire ports so my friend could use it with a D-VHS. The Comcast rep informed me that they disable all firewire jacks on all of their cable boxes since they do not want people doing external recording. Comcast also offers a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 with two E-SATA connections instead of two firewire jacks that allows one to connect external hard drives for recording when the internal hard drive is full. The Comcast Rep said that he believed the E-SATA jacks are disabled also on all their boxes. I informed the Comcast rep that Direct TV and Dish Network allow customers to connect external hard drives for recording (Of course Direct TV and Dish Network have no firewire jacks on the boxes).
I then asked the Comcast Rep if they offered a HDTV box for rental with a firewire jack enabled. The customer service rep informed me that they also disable the firewire jacks on all boxes including the HD boxes. I informed the rep that they suppose to offer a HD digital cable box with a firewire connection. Legally the law says cable companies are required to provide a HD box with an active firewire connection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewire
I know the D-VHS format is dead but possible maybe as late as 2009 BLU-RAY standalone recorders might be released in the USA that have firewire connections to record in 1080I quality from digital cable boxes. Once BLU-RAY standalone recorders are released the firewire jack will be more popular. Has anyone been able to get a working Comcast box with firewire? Reading the threads it sounds like most cable companies will only provide a non DVR HD box with a working firewire connection. I hope that the two way cable agreement will allow people to purchase their own equipment and the consumer will be able to buy a digital HD cable box with firewire. Of course if the cable companies can turn these firewire ports off and refuse to turn them on then the firewire ports are useless.
My friend has had Verizon FIOS in their area for over a year. I am trying to get my friend to switch to Verizon that offers better picture quality and more channel selection. Hopefully Verizon keeps the firewire ports enabled on their HD boxes. Anyone here have Verizon FIOS with a active firewire port?
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post #178 of 192 Old 10-29-2008, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Anyone here have Verizon FIOS with a active firewire port?

Yes, I record from my Verizon FIOS Motorola DVR to my JVC D-VHS almost every day.

The only glitch is that I must unplug the DVR and reboot before each recording. Otherwise the audio on the recordings will have lip-synch lag.
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post #179 of 192 Old 10-31-2008, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dneily View Post

Yes, I record from my Verizon FIOS Motorola DVR to my JVC D-VHS almost every day.

The only glitch is that I must unplug the DVR and reboot before each recording. Otherwise the audio on the recordings will have lip-synch lag.

ever since I've had a Comcast Motorola DCH series DVR rather than the DCT series, I no longer have to unplug and reboot before each recording to my JVC D-VHS. the audio sync remains. if FIOS also has the DCH series, I'd suggest swapping.

I posted about this in the DCH thread in June, and the firmware upgrade since then has cured the lack of recording light problem on the DCH:

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post14119571

Comcast (Berkeley, CA)
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post #180 of 192 Old 11-14-2008, 03:04 PM
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My friend switched to Verizon and is using the Motorola 6416 HD DVR and 3 Motorola 6200 HD set top boxes. Both boxes have two active firewire connections. I was able to successfully record 1080I with no problems. In fact on the 6416 HD DVR I connected two D-VHS's and they were able to make two of the exact same recordings of a 1080I or 720P program at the same time using one cable box.
After several hours of testing the boxes and VCR's they did not need rebooted. The Verizon master broadcast picture quality is the best I have seen compared to satellite and cable. Only pre-recorded BLU-RAY discs looked better then Verizon FIOS.

When connecting two D-VHS's to one cable box, I-1 and I-2 show up in the indicator when changing channels on the VCR's. Since all three devices are connected this allows one to make two perfect bit for bit recordings at the same time from the cable box. It also allows the VCR's to do perfect bit for bit dubbing between two D-VHS machines even when the cable box is turned off. Now if one unplugs the power to the cable box the I-link connection is broken between the two VCR's. It is great to have two firewire connections on a cable box. I wish more cable boxes did.
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