TV18ipal quasi anechoic graphs. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 06-08-2020, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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TV18ipal quasi anechoic graphs.

1 ) is the final curve. Two cabinet orientations. Blue = port and woofer equidistant to microphone. Orange is sub oriented normally.

Blue is the truer curve relative to other subs with ports+mic on front baffle(equidistant to mic). But Orange is also important as you can see some minor frequency anomalies minimized when the woofer is facing at the mic. Measuring a sub like this (port and woofer on different baffles) does present challenges when you are trying to find a way to present it all in ONE curve that is easily compared to a subwoofer with everything on one baffle. In room none of this matters as the acoustical energy of the subwoofer will be reflected. But outside, you can see the small differences involved.

2) is the final curve, woofer+port equidistant, but with a new "room size" adjustment specific to the TV18 models.(Large, 50%, small) I am still experimenting with the final room size control curves but this is very close. Note---the sudden rise in the bottom curve around 16hz is wind noise. In fact all of the roughness in the deeper bass is wind noise. But it should be easy enough to eyeball that out for everyone.

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post #2 of 16 Old 06-08-2020, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, I understand that some "wiggles" might seem odd because so many graphs we see aren't measured outside in the wind or with large baffles between the mic and the woofer(s). In fact in many cases the frequency response a manufacturer presents on their website isn't even a "measurement"...it's just a simulation. Yeah, those typically look very good

Anyway, here is the same unit, tv18ipal, with the mic NF(nearfield) to the woofer. This removes the wind, a large truck that is 1/8th mile away, and all that. Of course with the mic an inch from the woofer the port contribution won't be shown in this graph but you can see the dip which indicates the port "tune"....about 12.5hz here. But the main thing this shows is the smooth >35hz woofer contribution. And this is unsmoothed. If I put in even 1/6th smoothing it would basically be ruler flat..

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post #3 of 16 Old 06-09-2020, 12:57 PM
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Thanks for the graphs. If there is 12db of room gain I could see this easily hitting it's advertised specs. With the room size set to large it's going to dig deep. Nice and smooth response too, it looks great. With regards to decibel output, does this sub design have anything out of the ordinary compared to the B&C specs for the neo and Ipal? At what decibel level and frequency does port noise become audible?

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post #4 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 09:05 AM
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I’m not good at reading this sorta stuff. How does the TV18 stack up against the FV18?

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post #5 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
Thanks for the graphs. If there is 12db of room gain I could see this easily hitting it's advertised specs. With the room size set to large it's going to dig deep. Nice and smooth response too, it looks great. With regards to decibel output, does this sub design have anything out of the ordinary compared to the B&C specs for the neo and Ipal? At what decibel level and frequency does port noise become audible?
We're down about 6dB from 15hz to 100hz. Most manufacturers would spec that as +/-3dB / 15-100hz / measured quasi anechoic. So I think 15hz extension is automatic regardless of room environment. Under that the rolloff is a little steeper so it makes exact in room predictions more difficult. I'd say 10-12hz is a given in anything less than 7500 cu-ft though. And even up to 10,000+ cu-ft, 12hz should be strong.

Nothing special about the woofers, just the same B&C Neo based, Italian made, high BL, high sensitivity, extreme thermal, with inductance control as well

There is no way to answer the question about port noise. We would have to define exactly what port noise is, very specifically, to address that in terms of an exact SPL level versus an exact frequency. With well over 100 TV36 subs in the field(maybe 150+?) I don't recall seeing much in the way of complaints regarding port noise on those although there may have been some comments I missed as my time spent here can be sporadic. And the laminar port flow capabilities of the TV18 cabinet is almost exactly half. So half the amp+half the woofer compliment matched with half the port flow. This wasn't accidental..

There are several very important aspects to port flow. These have been well documented and peer reviewed.

* The port flaring is just as important as the port size.

* You should avoid curves in the port whenever possible.

Of course every design will be a balance between many different considerations based on size, price, inventory hits, etc. So each manufacturer will have tough choices to make.

Honestly I never though these would be so popular. I keep looking at them as "2/3rd the price for 1/2 the performance" compared to the well established TV36 series. So it must be size. But these are BIG...but I guess there's a sweet spot in there between "BIG" and "too BIG" for many people.

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post #6 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dasanii19 View Post
I’m not good at reading this sorta stuff. How does the TV18 stack up against the FV18?
bases only on the graphs posted here? pretty similar overall. Little edge here, little edge there. Nothing that indicates one product is better.

Two large low tuned subs with quality 18 inch woofers and good amps. You're getting a good product either way.

In my experience in communicating with customers some of the things they find appealing about Power Sound have nothing to do with a "graph" and these seem to set us apart from everyone else to some degree.

TV18 cabinets are made and finished 100% here in Ohio. (see pictures attached).

We hand assemble every ICE amplifier here in Ohio using a proprietary feature board+DSP design that is sourced from Canada(along with the aluminum plates for the amps).

The woofers are offshore though. Italy to be specific. This is kind of unusual as 99.99% of the time when an audio manufacturer sources something "off shore" it is done so as purely a cost cutting strategy. But in our case, when we moved to the B&C woofers, our costing per woofer actually increased. And it increased significantly. But we weren't worried about counting beans, all we were worried about was maximizing performance+build quality.

When people find out that purchasing a Power Sound product means supporting 15-20 different "mom and pop" size vendors all across the USA and Canada---that seems to resonant.

We have a bumper to bumper 5 year warranty.

We do offer trade in credit on every product every sold.

Now, some might look at all of this and say "I don't care about a trade in policy, I don't care about warranty length, I don't care about ICE amplification with proprietary DSP, I don't even care were anything is made" And all that is okay too. Once you eliminate all of that we're probably more "just another good subwoofer mixed in with a half a dozen other brands".

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post #7 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 01:49 PM
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It's nice that Tom doesn't crap on other brands... I can't say that about other guys...
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post #8 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
We're down about 6dB from 15hz to 100hz. Most manufacturers would spec that as +/-3dB / 15-100hz / measured quasi anechoic. So I think 15hz extension is automatic regardless of room environment. Under that the rolloff is a little steeper so it makes exact in room predictions more difficult. I'd say 10-12hz is a given in anything less than 7500 cu-ft though. And even up to 10,000+ cu-ft, 12hz should be strong.

Nothing special about the woofers, just the same B&C Neo based, Italian made, high BL, high sensitivity, extreme thermal, with inductance control as well

There is no way to answer the question about port noise. We would have to define exactly what port noise is, very specifically, to address that in terms of an exact SPL level versus an exact frequency. With well over 100 TV36 subs in the field(maybe 150+?) I don't recall seeing much in the way of complaints regarding port noise on those although there may have been some comments I missed as my time spent here can be sporadic. And the laminar port flow capabilities of the TV18 cabinet is almost exactly half. So half the amp+half the woofer compliment matched with half the port flow. This wasn't accidental..

There are several very important aspects to port flow. These have been well documented and peer reviewed.

* The port flaring is just as important as the port size.

* You should avoid curves in the port whenever possible.

Of course every design will be a balance between many different considerations based on size, price, inventory hits, etc. So each manufacturer will have tough choices to make.

Honestly I never though these would be so popular. I keep looking at them as "2/3rd the price for 1/2 the performance" compared to the well established TV36 series. So it must be size. But these are BIG...but I guess there's a sweet spot in there between "BIG" and "too BIG" for many people.

Tom V.
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I think many people are like me and want more than one sub woofer to get a more smooth response in their rooms and also for better coverage. The extra +6db that the TV36 offers is great for large rooms but I couldn't even begin to take advantage of it in my 2400cuft room. I think the TV18 is so popular because it has the same low tune that can deliver strong 10hz ULF and provide the same coverage as 2x TV36 while costing less and being a bit smaller as well. Most people are in medium to small rooms and don't want the extra size or need the +6db that the TV36 has to hit reference. I could be wrong but that is why I went the way I did. Buying 2x TV36 would cost more than 2X TV18 and ultimately they can both do their thing at reference in my room so I'd rather have the smaller and cheaper TV18.
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post #9 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
I think many people are like me and want more than one sub woofer to get a more smooth response in their rooms and also for better coverage. The extra +6db that the TV36 offers is great for large rooms but I couldn't even begin to take advantage of it in my 2400cuft room. I think the TV18 is so popular because it has the same low tune that can deliver strong 10hz ULF and provide the same coverage as 2x TV36 while costing less and being a bit smaller as well. Most people are in medium to small rooms and don't want the extra size or need the +6db that the TV36 has to hit reference. I could be wrong but that is why I went the way I did. Buying 2x TV36 would cost more than 2X TV18 and ultimately they can both do their thing at reference in my room so I'd rather have the smaller and cheaper TV18.
Yeah, those are very good points. Sometimes I miss the forest for the trees.

I bet we see an influx of low tuned vented products that combine much smaller size(compared to the tv18) with price tiers reaching well below the 1000 mark at some point. They always say the market abhors a vacuum.

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post #10 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 05:56 PM
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[/quote]

I think many people are like me and want more than one sub woofer to get a more smooth response in their rooms and also for better coverage. The extra +6db that the TV36 offers is great for large rooms but I couldn't even begin to take advantage of it in my 2400cuft room. I think the TV18 is so popular because it has the same low tune that can deliver strong 10hz ULF and provide the same coverage as 2x TV36 while costing less and being a bit smaller as well. Most people are in medium to small rooms and don't want the extra size or need the +6db that the TV36 has to hit reference. I could be wrong but that is why I went the way I did. Buying 2x TV36 would cost more than 2X TV18 and ultimately they can both do their thing at reference in my room so I'd rather have the smaller and cheaper TV18.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more. It’s not that one TV1812 costs 2/3 one TV3612 with half the output, it’s that I want TWO subs and can’t AFFORD two TV3612’s. That’s what makes the TV1812 so appealing. And it’s also much smaller!
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post #11 of 16 Old 06-11-2020, 06:27 PM
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The extra +6db that the TV36 offers is great for large rooms but I couldn't even begin to take advantage of it in my 2400cuft room. I think the TV18 is so popular because it has the same low tune that can deliver strong 10hz ULF and provide the same coverage as 2x TV36 while costing less and being a bit smaller as well. Most people are in medium to small rooms
I couldn’t agree more. It’s not that one TV1812 costs 2/3 one TV3612 with half the output, it’s that I want TWO subs and can’t AFFORD two TV3612’s. That’s what makes the TV1812 so appealing. And it’s also much smaller![/QUOTE]This is the exact reason why I wouldn't be able to get a TV3612...let alone TWO of them lol cuz I have an actual Living room! With two kids! So the TV18 will be a perfect fit with plans to add a 2nd one down the road.

Now if I had a dedicated home theater room...then yes TV36/TV42S all day.
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post #12 of 16 Old 06-12-2020, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I couldn’t agree more. It’s not that one TV1812 costs 2/3 one TV3612 with half the output, it’s that I want TWO subs and can’t AFFORD two TV3612’s. That’s what makes the TV1812 so appealing. And it’s also much smaller!
This is the exact reason why I wouldn't be able to get a TV3612...let alone TWO of them lol cuz I have an actual Living room! With two kids! So the TV18 will be a perfect fit with plans to add a 2nd one down the road.

Now if I had a dedicated home theater room...then yes TV36/TV42S all day.[/QUOTE]

I wonder how many times we could do this ratio? Now that I've seen it spelled out like this.

Say 2/3rd the price of the tv18 for 2/3rd the performance and 2/3rd the size? It is an interesting path and like stated "the marketplace abhors a vacuum" so IF there is a demand, the product will appear. That is just how things work. There are so many quality ID vendors that I'm sure most/all of them are thinking the same. Quality, low tuned subs <$1200, <$1000, maybe under $800? Who knows. It will be an interesting second half of 2020 I'd reckon.

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post #13 of 16 Old 06-12-2020, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I wonder how many times we could do this ratio? Now that I've seen it spelled out like this.

Say 2/3rd the price of the tv18 for 2/3rd the performance and 2/3rd the size? It is an interesting path and like stated "the marketplace abhors a vacuum" so IF there is a demand, the product will appear. That is just how things work. There are so many quality ID vendors that I'm sure most/all of them are thinking the same. Quality, low tuned subs <$1200, <$1000, maybe under $800? Who knows. It will be an interesting second half of 2020 I'd reckon.

Tom V.
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This is why I'm anxiously hoping the TV1512 comes to fruition. I also want dual subs but I just don't have adequate space for the TV1812. Good work Tom.
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post #14 of 16 Old 06-13-2020, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhelliott2 View Post
I couldn&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t agree more. It&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s not that one TV1812 costs 2/3 one TV3612 with half the output, it&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s that I want TWO subs and can&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t AFFORD two TV3612&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s. That&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s what makes the TV1812 so appealing. And it&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;s also much smaller!
This is the exact reason why I wouldn't be able to get a TV3612...let alone TWO of them lol cuz I have an actual Living room! With two kids! So the TV18 will be a perfect fit with plans to add a 2nd one down the road.

Now if I had a dedicated home theater room...then yes TV36/TV42S all day.
I wonder how many times we could do this ratio? Now that I've seen it spelled out like this.

Say 2/3rd the price of the tv18 for 2/3rd the performance and 2/3rd the size? It is an interesting path and like stated "the marketplace abhors a vacuum" so IF there is a demand, the product will appear. That is just how things work. There are so many quality ID vendors that I'm sure most/all of them are thinking the same. Quality, low tuned subs <$1200, <$1000, maybe under $800? Who knows. It will be an interesting second half of 2020 I'd reckon.

Tom V.
Team Power.[/QUOTE]

With production at full capacity how long before you offer a Chinese cabinet TV1812? The initial impressions are pretty amazing! I may have to scrape and save for these after all. Hopefully the savings from the cabinet will help.

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post #15 of 16 Old 06-18-2020, 09:26 AM
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Like others have said, for me it's more about the size than the cost. I have three PSA 15" subs in my living room and have been toying with the idea of getting two TV18's to replace them. I can make room for 2 big boxes, but not 2 huge ones. I know the pre-order will end very soon so I probably won't pull the trigger. I doubt I could sell three subs locally in a short amount of time, and I'd imagine shipping would kill the trade in value. Hmmm, I wonder how much dropping off/picking up would save me? I have a truck and family in PA, so I could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone.
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post #16 of 16 Old 06-18-2020, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Like others have said, for me it's more about the size than the cost. I have three PSA 15" subs in my living room and have been toying with the idea of getting two TV18's to replace them. I can make room for 2 big boxes, but not 2 huge ones. I know the pre-order will end very soon so I probably won't pull the trigger. I doubt I could sell three subs locally in a short amount of time, and I'd imagine shipping would kill the trade in value. Hmmm, I wonder how much dropping off/picking up would save me? I have a truck and family in PA, so I could potentially kill 2 birds with one stone.
If you have three V1500, and drop off/pick up---roughly about $725-775 for 2 TV1812 subs without boxing(but wrapped in a protective liner for travel.

This assumes the three v1500 are in very good condition including the grills.

If you ship back(with the labels I provide) and we ship the new subs to you it is $520 more(and this assumes you have all of the original boxing). If we have to include 3 new boxing sets with the TV1812 shipment that is another $90 total.

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