Tv2112 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-28-2020, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Tv2112

The two usual disclaimers:

1) This may or may not ever see production.

2) And if it makes it to production it will almost certainly undergo a few design updates along the way.

Having said that, it does sound amazing. Really packs a lot into a (somewhat) manageable size.

It is the sub on the left.

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post #2 of 17 Old 07-02-2020, 06:31 AM
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Tom
I know this is still in development but would this be comparable to a TV3612? Are there any audible differences between the 18&21?

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post #3 of 17 Old 07-02-2020, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom
I know this is still in development but would this be comparable to a TV3612? Are there any audible differences between the 18&21?
It may end up in two options.

1 = 2112 with our 1920w ICE platform.

2 = 21ipal with the SP 4000w platform.

The TV2112 with Ice, probably 1.5 to 2dB under the TV3612 overall(avg from say 12-100hz).

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post #4 of 17 Old 07-02-2020, 10:57 PM
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How about a comparison between the TV18 and TV21's output? A TV3612 is never gonna fly for me in my situation, but a shorter sub will, so the duel would be between a TV18 and TV21.

In its current incarnation, is the enclosure shorter vertically than the TV18? Looks like it might be from the pic. If so, how likely is it to stay the way it is versus, say, converted to a downfiring port and a taller chassis like the TV18? The TV18 is a bit tall in my space as its height encroaches into the field of view of the television, so something slightly shorter but with even more oomph would be an interesting proposition.

Man, the available price range between the TV18/IPAL and the TV36 is a bit squeezy. Gonna jam a TV21 in there, eh?

If it ends up in that price range and the size is manageable, you could have a real winner on your hands for folks who want max performance without going with a double-tall (and double-heavy) sub.


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post #5 of 17 Old 07-03-2020, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
How about a comparison between the TV18 and TV21's output? A TV3612 is never gonna fly for me in my situation, but a shorter sub will, so the duel would be between a TV18 and TV21.

In its current incarnation, is the enclosure shorter vertically than the TV18? Looks like it might be from the pic. If so, how likely is it to stay the way it is versus, say, converted to a downfiring port and a taller chassis like the TV18? The TV18 is a bit tall in my space as its height encroaches into the field of view of the television, so something slightly shorter but with even more oomph would be an interesting proposition.

Man, the available price range between the TV18/IPAL and the TV36 is a bit squeezy. Gonna jam a TV21 in there, eh?

If it ends up in that price range and the size is manageable, you could have a real winner on your hands for folks who want max performance without going with a double-tall (and double-heavy) sub.
This one is about 24(w) x 26(h) x 26(d). This one won't change to a DF port. It may get a little larger though...depth and height wise. But if it does I'd hope not more than another inch or so.

The pricing is TBD but with a custom B&C 21, Ohio ICE, Ohio built and finished cabinet with our unique and very popular satin finish, 5 year warranty, blah blah...I'd argue anything in the ballpark of $3000 shipped would be quite a bargain. But that is difficult to gauge to some degree as there really isn't much competition to set the market.

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post #6 of 17 Old 07-03-2020, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
This one is about 24(w) x 26(h) x 26(d). This one won't change to a DF port. It may get a little larger though...depth and height wise. But if it does I'd hope not more than another inch or so.

The pricing is TBD but with a custom B&C 21, Ohio ICE, Ohio built and finished cabinet with our unique and very popular satin finish, 5 year warranty, blah blah...I'd argue anything in the ballpark of $3000 shipped would be quite a bargain. But that is difficult to gauge to some degree as there really isn't much competition to set the market.

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From my ignorance I thought, "TV2112 has a bigger driver and amp than TV1812, so the TV2112 should be more expensive. Compared to the TV3612 with its 2 18" drivers and much larger enclosure but same amp, surely the TV3612 is more expensive." The $3000 ballpark is surprising to me, but I know zero about the economies of woofers. Not that a few hundred dollars would make or break sales at this price range, but it's definitely interesting to see how this fits into the product range.


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post #7 of 17 Old 07-03-2020, 06:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
How about a comparison between the TV18 and TV21's output? A TV3612 is never gonna fly for me in my situation, but a shorter sub will, so the duel would be between a TV18 and TV21.
missed this earlier.

The tv18 is basically half a tv36. So -6.

Given that I'd put the tv2112 at about 3-4dB higher(avg from 12-100hz) weighted to the top end. Meaning it may be 1-2 higher 15hz and 5-6dB higher 100hz.

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post #8 of 17 Old 07-03-2020, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
From my ignorance I thought, "TV2112 has a bigger driver and amp than TV1812, so the TV2112 should be more expensive. Compared to the TV3612 with its 2 18" drivers and much larger enclosure but same amp, surely the TV3612 is more expensive." The $3000 ballpark is surprising to me, but I know zero about the economies of woofers. Not that a few hundred dollars would make or break sales at this price range, but it's definitely interesting to see how this fits into the product range.
Once you get into these size cabinets the costing doesn't change all that much. It is largely based on man hours involved. Remember, these guys aren't working for 50 cents an hour.. We have a smaller cabinet but one that has a rather unique and time intensive port design. It won't surprise me if the quote for these cabinets is more than the tv36.

Woofer customization is expensive. Just a generic example. $5000 in costs just to get to sample approval(remember, I'm flying samples in from Italy). Minimum order quantity + pricing on custom 21 from B&C? Put it this way, there's a reason why we don't see a bunch of small ID companies using customized B&C stuff..

I can use the tv36 woofers on multiple other products. Right now, these new 21 inch designs will be used on one product.

So if I have $50,000 of *12* series 18 inch woofers inbound I can split that between 7(?) products. $50,000 of one woofer SKU used on 1 product? Ouch.

Warehouse space? say 80 sq-ft for the 12 series 18 inch---dvided by 7.

There's just a lot that goes into it all.

And then I always try to put myself in a potential customer's shoes too. Someone has $2500-3000 budget, can't do a 4ft tall refrigerator, wants max performance down to say 12hz, a 5 year warranty, Cabinet fit and finish that looks amazing, good customer service, a trade in policy most consider generous...

What are there going to tell me they are going to go with instead? I understand some may say "warranty length means nothing to me, I'm fine with a truck bedliner/DIY looking finish, trade up policy means nothing, being able to have my emails answered after the sale isn't important, B&C Neo is just another woofer, blah blah.

And that is fine too, different strokes. BUT---when all of that "stuff" has zero value to them--- they shouldn't be considering a PSA product anyway to be honest.

EDIT-PS.

Also, imo, we need to realize what a value the TV3612 is at $2799 shipped as well. Built in Ohio amp, Built AND finished in Ohio cabinet, Dual Italian 18 inch woofers, 5 year warranty. It is an incredible cost/quality/performance balance in my biased opinion and it has dominated it's marketplace from day one. So using that as a *typical* bar for other products...I mean I understand your POV...but it's a tough bar to aim for every time..


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post #9 of 17 Old 07-04-2020, 07:46 AM
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Tom, thanks for the deep dive into what all goes into the cost of a sub. The thing I forgot and didn't account for was that these are custom-designed drivers that you have to pay to have designed and manufactured at a minimum quantity. Combined with the TV36 being priced lower than its performance would normally command, which puts pressure on the price range for the TV21 to fit into, the potential pricing of the TV21 makes complete sense to me. Basically until the new 21" woofer can take advantage of the economy of scale by seeing use across a line of products, the TV21 would target the max-performance non-fridge market, which would overlap in pricing with the "low end" of the low-tuned dual-driver range of products.

Following this line of thought, it would be interesting to speculate where a hypothetical TV30 would fit into the range, and if such a product would even make sense at all as the performance may or may not justify the extra size vs the TV21 or even the TV18.


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post #10 of 17 Old 07-04-2020, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom, thanks for the deep dive into what all goes into the cost of a sub. The thing I forgot and didn't account for was that these are custom-designed drivers that you have to pay to have designed and manufactured at a minimum quantity. Combined with the TV36 being priced lower than its performance would normally command, which puts pressure on the price range for the TV21 to fit into, the potential pricing of the TV21 makes complete sense to me. Basically until the new 21" woofer can take advantage of the economy of scale by seeing use across a line of products, the TV21 would target the max-performance non-fridge market, which would overlap in pricing with the "low end" of the low-tuned dual-driver range of products.

Following this line of thought, it would be interesting to speculate where a hypothetical TV30 would fit into the range, and if such a product would even make sense at all as the performance may or may not justify the extra size vs the TV21 or even the TV18.
The issue with a v30 or tv30 is it would be the same cost to build as the 18 inch options. Size could be a little smaller but not much. So we'd have a TV3012 at say 2699 versus 2799 for the TV3612. Maybe 2599. But in either case I don't see much sales potential.

My main concerns right now are three. it's like Monty Python and the keeper of the bridge..

1) entering and re-setting the market <$1000 (both sealed and vented)by leveraging china cabinets. This will have the much needed ancillary benefit of relieving some pressure on the two finish booths in Ohio which have been our production bottle neck for a long time now.

2) exploring potential usage for the new 21 inch woofer we have been discussing. Right now, I have one cabinet for 21 stuff---the tv42. The sheer size of that will minimize potential sales. The new TV2112 cabinet will be popular. But I will be bringing in 100-200 of these new 21 inch woofers. I doubt I will sell 200 TV2112 in 6 months, I doubt 100. And inventory turns...for us...I don't want to hear about more than 3 months max. So now what? Maybe a S2112 but to be frank---sealed isn't really the flavor of the month right now. AND, point back to #1 above...I need to have high confidence in sales potential to add anything to our Ohio finish booths. The TV2112 will be added. So fingers crossed it does ok. Maybe a china cabinet S2112. Maybe. That could be pretty attractive price wise. Down side is I have another SKU to maintain via a logistics chain stretching around the globe while having no room here already. Upside, it could also be a help in lessening the Ohio finish booth overload.

I already have three sub designs on the way for final sample approval from china + the three speakers. So 6 total. S2112 would be 7. When you have little room in the warehouse already---7 x 100(the usual MOQ from china)...it will be a problem needing solving.

3) Finishing off a small speaker idea I've wanted to pursue for a long time now. A smaller co-ax in a cabinet about 1/3rd the size(cu-volume) of the MT110.

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post #11 of 17 Old 07-04-2020, 10:57 PM
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A smaller co-ax in a cabinet about 1/3rd the size(cu-volume) of the MT110.
I, undoubtedly along with MANY others, would be all over that!

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post #12 of 17 Old 07-05-2020, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MentatYP View Post
From my ignorance I thought, "TV2112 has a bigger driver and amp than TV1812, so the TV2112 should be more expensive. Compared to the TV3612 with its 2 18" drivers and much larger enclosure but same amp, surely the TV3612 is more expensive." The $3000 ballpark is surprising to me, but I know zero about the economies of woofers. Not that a few hundred dollars would make or break sales at this price range, but it's definitely interesting to see how this fits into the product range.
Once you get into these size cabinets the costing doesn't change all that much. It is largely based on man hours involved. Remember, these guys aren't working for 50 cents an hour..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] We have a smaller cabinet but one that has a rather unique and time intensive port design. It won't surprise me if the quote for these cabinets is more than the tv36.

Woofer customization is expensive. Just a generic example. $5000 in costs just to get to sample approval(remember, I'm flying samples in from Italy). Minimum order quantity + pricing on custom 21 from B&C? Put it this way, there's a reason why we don't see a bunch of small ID companies using customized B&C stuff..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I can use the tv36 woofers on multiple other products. Right now, these new 21 inch designs will be used on one product.

So if I have $50,000 of *12* series 18 inch woofers inbound I can split that between 7(?) products. $50,000 of one woofer SKU used on 1 product? Ouch.

Warehouse space? say 80 sq-ft for the 12 series 18 inch---dvided by 7.

There's just a lot that goes into it all.

And then I always try to put myself in a potential customer's shoes too. Someone has $2500-3000 budget, can't do a 4ft tall refrigerator, wants max performance down to say 12hz, a 5 year warranty, Cabinet fit and finish that looks amazing, good customer service, a trade in policy most consider generous...

What are there going to tell me they are going to go with instead? I understand some may say "warranty length means nothing to me, I'm fine with a truck bedliner/DIY looking finish, trade up policy means nothing, being able to have my emails answered after the sale isn't important, B&C Neo is just another woofer, blah blah.

And that is fine too, different strokes. BUT---when all of that "stuff" has zero value to them--- they shouldn't be considering a PSA product anyway to be honest.

EDIT-PS.

Also, imo, we need to realize what a value the TV3612 is at $2799 shipped as well. Built in Ohio amp, Built AND finished in Ohio cabinet, Dual Italian 18 inch woofers, 5 year warranty. It is an incredible cost/quality/performance balance in my biased opinion and it has dominated it's marketplace from day one. So using that as a *typical* bar for other products...I mean I understand your POV...but it's a tough bar to aim for every time..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]


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I agree that the TV36 is probably the best deal around. If you’d asked me about it a month ago I would have said there’s NO WAY I could put that in my room! Now that I’ve rearranged my setup it’s a perfect fit!

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post #13 of 17 Old 07-05-2020, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I, undoubtedly along with MANY others, would be all over that!
Maybe, we'll see. What sets our current speakers apart from the 99% is sensitivity, the ability to sound effortless even with demanding source material at loud volume levels.

There isn't really any way to do better than our current MT110 and MT110 w/china cabinet in terms of size/price/performance. So using that as a step off point what I hear most from potential customers is "smaller" and "cheaper". But the hurdles with both are now we're going to minimize our sensitivity advantage. You can't do "smaller + much less expensive" and maintain anything remotely close to 95dB true sensitivity. Remember, TRUE sensitivity here. Not the way many other brands "spec" sensitivity as they add 6dB(!)..

When I throw a dart at the wall for the size and price stuff I figure a good starting point might be 1/3 the size and 1/2 the price. The latter assumes all assembly and testing is in Ohio, using B&C drivers.

From there, it is just wherever the design takes you as it evolves during initial proto-type, measurements, listening sessions.

There's just tons of mass/clearance stuff all the time out there that are anywhere from $100 to $500 a pair. So the market is already saturated. Just go to crutchfield and click on "bookshelf" All sorts of big name brands, all sorts of styling options.

So we'll see. If these sound really good it would be easier to move forward. If they are sort of "meh" putting the idea aside indefinitely is always an option.

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Another new 21 is here for testing in the tv2112 cabinet. Some customization here specific to this product line.

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Another new 21 is here for testing in the tv2112 cabinet. Some customization here specific to this product line.

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oh boy, more options to evaluate. Months ago I was begging for single 21" Ipals for each corner and I gave up on that dream realizing TV18 Ipals would be enough. Now I'm afraid to dream again in case these don't come to market. Very smart to up the WAF on this model BTW. Are these custom B&C drivers an easier load than the Ipals? Is that why we're seeing them by themselves instead of the Ipal version? I love the array of options this company continues to develop. I'm sure I'm flying too close to the sun on wings of pastrami when I hold out hope for an S42 Ipal with 6K SP amp but every time I think "you know what would be great...Tom comes out with exactly that. Exciting company to follow.

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oh boy, more options to evaluate. Months ago I was begging for single 21" Ipals for each corner and I gave up on that dream realizing TV18 Ipals would be enough. Now I'm afraid to dream again in case these don't come to market. Very smart to up the WAF on this model BTW. Are these custom B&C drivers an easier load than the Ipals? Is that why we're seeing them by themselves instead of the Ipal version? I love the array of options this company continues to develop. I'm sure I'm flying too close to the sun on wings of pastrami when I hold out hope for an S42 Ipal with 6K SP amp but every time I think "you know what would be great...Tom comes out with exactly that. Exciting company to follow.

Tim
Being able to offer two versions of a new design often spreads out all of the associated costing involved to make it all more feasible. So a S42ipal along with a S4212 for example.

The issue all along with anything using dual 21 inch Ipal woofers is cost. Those would likely be in the $4000-4250 range each. The woofers are just so expensive. And then you have the speaker power 4-6kw stuff. Not exactly cheap either..

I experimented with the 21ipal in a couple of different sealed designs way back when I first got them(18 months ago?). Finishing off a S42ipal would be relatively easy for production at this point. I'D say 95% of the DSP is already done.

The thing is we have so many balls in the air right now. For me to add to it all with another new cabinet from Cincinnati I would need a reasonable number of pre orders. One isn't it. Not even two. I would need a minimum of 8 for me to consider fast tracking it all and having shipping within say 8-10 weeks.

So, for EXAMPLE, a non refundable 33% pre order at $4200 each. 8 minimum needed. Balance due when we ship.

I'm probably going to regret saying this but --- if we had 8 orders(total of 8 units) I could commit to finishing the design and should be able to have it shipping in 8-10 weeks with no problem at all. Maybe even 6 weeks if all the stars aligned.

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Being able to offer two versions of a new design often spreads out all of the associated costing involved to make it all more feasible. So a S42ipal along with a S4212 for example.

The issue all along with anything using dual 21 inch Ipal woofers is cost. Those would likely be in the $4000-4250 range each. The woofers are just so expensive. And then you have the speaker power 4-6kw stuff. Not exactly cheap either..[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I experimented with the 21ipal in a couple of different sealed designs way back when I first got them(18 months ago?). Finishing off a S42ipal would be relatively easy for production at this point. I'D say 95% of the DSP is already done.

The thing is we have so many balls in the air right now. For me to add to it all with another new cabinet from Cincinnati I would need a reasonable number of pre orders. One isn't it. Not even two. I would need a minimum of 8 for me to consider fast tracking it all and having shipping within say 8-10 weeks.

So, for EXAMPLE, a non refundable 33% pre order at $4200 each. 8 minimum needed. Balance due when we ship.

I'm probably going to regret saying this but --- if we had 8 orders(total of 8 units) I could commit to finishing the design and should be able to have it shipping in 8-10 weeks with no problem at all. Maybe even 6 weeks if all the stars aligned.

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Wow, S4212 and S42 Ipal would be amazing. Even though it's faster than my upcomong HT time table I'd take a pair at pre-order prices before I'm even ready for them. My fingers are crossed other are interested as well. As Kevin Costner said if you build it (with a 21") they will come.

Tim

Last edited by Dockside HT; Today at 06:34 PM.
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