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post #631 of 710 Old 02-09-2016, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dan4081 View Post
I agree with you here. This movie is probably the most unoriginal blockbuster made in a long, long time. Probably have to go all the way back to, um, well, all the way back to Jurassic World since.....oh, nevermind.....
Aw, crap; don't give oink any ammo..
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post #632 of 710 Old 02-09-2016, 07:03 PM
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Not the article, but the whole "plagiarizing" thing.
This movie is probably the most unoriginal blockbuster made in a long time.
Ah, yes, we have discussed that before. I thought that Valero's article took it a bit past what we've all mentioned, though, by illustrating that it wasn't just that so much of the story was unoriginal, but that the way those swiped elements were worked into the story actually hurt the heart and sole of the movie.
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post #633 of 710 Old 02-09-2016, 07:54 PM
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How many people complained about the similiarities between The Terminator and Terminator 2? Just because Arnold becomes the good guy doesn't change the fact that the story is still more of the same. Does that make T2 a bad movie? Of course not, far from it. But there's still a robot after Sarah and her son, there's still a protector, there's still Judgement Day, there's still time travel, there's still the big showdown at the end, yet some things changed. T2 played with its own universe and its references to the first film. In The Force Awakens I see the same kind of approach, the familiar elements are here to tell us that this is Star Wars, but I see plenty of new material that make me look forward to the next chapter.
That's an interesting contrast, but ultimately it fails.

There are huge differences between the narratives of T1 and T2. You can start with the introduction of a new terminator that is completely different, not just from the T-800, but from anything else audiences had seen before in any movie. Add in all the other elements that weren't seen before: Sarah institutionalized, the moral dilemma over what to do with Miles Dyson, the unfolding elements that would shape John Conner, the extended vision of man's future. And, sure, Arnold now plays a good guy, but it goes beyond that. He's now protector and stand-in father to John, showing much more depth than just the single-minded savage and ruthless killing machine in the first film.

Of course, with any sequel you have the dual advantage and hindrance of using established characters, so there is some repetition there. And both are essentially sci-fi, time-travel, chase movies, so there's another shared element and expectation. You're not going to suddenly switch genres and get a romantic comedy. But T2 is a good example of taking a world from an earlier movie, and both expanding and improving on it, exploring more themes, while also giving the audience a fresh storyline that felt new and substantially different.

That's not the case with The Force Awakens. Instead of getting a greater and grander story, we got so many throwbacks to the original that it felt overly derivative, a point readily conceded by critics, even those have gushingly praised it.

Even so many of the new elements were either just repaintings of the old, or so poorly explained or illustrated that they had no impact. We don't have a Rebellion anymore, we have a Resistance. The major difference is, uh, um, the name? We don't have the Empire, we now have the First Order. And they're completely different because they, well, um, are different in some way. There's no evil Emperor, we now have an evil Supreme Leader. You get the idea. Maybe these and the other entities are completely different. I'll grant that they certainly could be. We just have nothing to base it on from what we saw in the film.

Look at what we learned in T2 compared to the original Terminator, with how Skynet formed, what formed John Conner, etc. Contrast that to what we gleaned of the Star Wars universe in TFA. Some minor updates on the old characters (overwhelmingly negative, depressing, and regressive) combined with some new, but hastily-developed characters.

Like you, I'll quickly admit that TFA also made me look forward to the next chapter, but it's out of a hope of seeing something new and fresh, not just a generic regurgitation of what we've all seen before.

Scott

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post #634 of 710 Old 02-09-2016, 11:30 PM
 
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FWIW and before it gets lost in the shuffle...I enjoyed watching the movie with Ms. Oink at my local Cineplex.


Unfortunately, as the credits were running, my Movie Critic hat went on...
I'll probably/eventually buy the UHD BD release, but until then I don't have an overwhelming desire to see it again...



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post #635 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 04:13 AM - Thread Starter
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That's not the case with The Force Awakens. Instead of getting a greater and grander story, we got so many throwbacks to the original that it felt overly derivative, a point readily conceded by critics, even those have gushingly praised it.
I think I agree with you more than it seems, it's just that I didn't find the throwbacks derivative, because there's much more to enjoy in TFA. I like where it's headed. I left the theater far more satisifed than when ep.1-2-3 came out, which were our last Star Wars experience, and that didn't taste good. TFA is nostalgic, yet "modern" (i.e it feels current by 2015's standards), visually faultless - ultimately a interesting new take on this universe (including the throwbacks, which for me were nods, acknowledgements and respect for the orginal material, not derivative work), and I'm ready to follow Rey and the new gang on their next journey. The bridge that represents TFA between the old Star Wars and the new Star Wars was (again, for me) a very enjoyable experience. I only saw it twice at the theater because I don't want to know it by heart before I buy it on Blu-ray
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post #636 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by srw1000 View Post
That's an interesting contrast, but ultimately it fails.

There are huge differences between the narratives of T1 and T2. You can start with the introduction of a new terminator that is completely different, not just from the T-800, but from anything else audiences had seen before in any movie. Add in all the other elements that weren't seen before: Sarah institutionalized, the moral dilemma over what to do with Miles Dyson, the unfolding elements that would shape John Conner, the extended vision of man's future. And, sure, Arnold now plays a good guy, but it goes beyond that. He's now protector and stand-in father to John, showing much more depth than just the single-minded savage and ruthless killing machine in the first film.

Of course, with any sequel you have the dual advantage and hindrance of using established characters, so there is some repetition there. And both are essentially sci-fi, time-travel, chase movies, so there's another shared element and expectation. You're not going to suddenly switch genres and get a romantic comedy. But T2 is a good example of taking a world from an earlier movie, and both expanding and improving on it, exploring more themes, while also giving the audience a fresh storyline that felt new and substantially different.

That's not the case with The Force Awakens. Instead of getting a greater and grander story, we got so many throwbacks to the original that it felt overly derivative, a point readily conceded by critics, even those have gushingly praised it.

Even so many of the new elements were either just repaintings of the old, or so poorly explained or illustrated that they had no impact. We don't have a Rebellion anymore, we have a Resistance. The major difference is, uh, um, the name? We don't have the Empire, we now have the First Order. And they're completely different because they, well, um, are different in some way. There's no evil Emperor, we now have an evil Supreme Leader. You get the idea. Maybe these and the other entities are completely different. I'll grant that they certainly could be. We just have nothing to base it on from what we saw in the film.

Look at what we learned in T2 compared to the original Terminator, with how Skynet formed, what formed John Conner, etc. Contrast that to what we gleaned of the Star Wars universe in TFA. Some minor updates on the old characters (overwhelmingly negative, depressing, and regressive) combined with some new, but hastily-developed characters.

Like you, I'll quickly admit that TFA also made me look forward to the next chapter, but it's out of a hope of seeing something new and fresh, not just a generic regurgitation of what we've all seen before.

Scott
I agree that the setup for the conflict for this trilogy is starting out very similar to the original. But on the other hand, what exactly would you want? More movies about politics? A formed Jedi order acting as a Galactic peace keeping force? That is essentially what you would be left with if the "happy ending" that Ep 6 hinted at came to be. We've seen that storyline too. Even the Thrawn books, which were probably the most popular of the EU, followed much the same template. Yes I know it's not canon, but it is an indicator that this framework is a successful one for creating a compelling and enjoyable arc. You have to have a big bad enemy that requires the heroes to unite. It's very likely to be a light vs. dark conflict at the heart of it. Focusing on how they were the same shortchanges what was added.

Could they have setup the conflict a bit differently? Sure. But you would still have a light side/dark side angle. The films have always been about the Skywalker family, so something with the descendants will figure into it. If you do a small character driven arc you'd have the fans complaining about the lack of grandeur. You go big and you essentially have what we got. 2 forces aligned behind the dark/light vying for the fate of the galaxy.

Again it's not a perfect movie. But looking at all the great character moments from the new and old cast added onto the new locations and you have something that, while not wholly original, has enough heart to satisfy. At least for me.

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post #637 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Morpheo View Post
I think I agree with you more than it seems, it's just that I didn't find the throwbacks derivative, because there's much more to enjoy in TFA. I like where it's headed. I left the theater far more satisifed than when ep.1-2-3 came out, which were our last Star Wars experience, and that didn't taste good. TFA is nostalgic, yet "modern" (i.e it feels current by 2015's standards), visually faultless - ultimately a interesting new take on this universe (including the throwbacks, which for me were nods, acknowledgements and respect for the orginal material, not derivative work), and I'm ready to follow Rey and the new gang on their next journey. The bridge that represents TFA between the old Star Wars and the new Star Wars was (again, for me) a very enjoyable experience. I only saw it twice at the theater because I don't want to know it by heart before I buy it on Blu-ray
I wish I could agree with you, but we're quite far apart.

I'll grant you that I want to see where the story goes, but some of that is due to TFA just not going very far. I'll also agree that there wasn't anything technically flawed with the visuals, but that's just a small part of the movie going experience.

As far as an "interesting new take" on Star Wars, I must have missed that part. There wasn't much new to see. Perhaps some small alterations to what we've seen before, but nothing really groundbreaking or fresh.

But we do both agree that we want to see the next episode. And we both want t to be good. We can at least settle on that.

Scott

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post #638 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 07:42 PM
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I agree that the setup for the conflict for this trilogy is starting out very similar to the original. But on the other hand, what exactly would you want? More movies about politics? A formed Jedi order acting as a Galactic peace keeping force? That is essentially what you would be left with if the "happy ending" that Ep 6 hinted at came to be. We've seen that storyline too. Even the Thrawn books, which were probably the most popular of the EU, followed much the same template. Yes I know it's not canon, but it is an indicator that this framework is a successful one for creating a compelling and enjoyable arc. You have to have a big bad enemy that requires the heroes to unite. It's very likely to be a light vs. dark conflict at the heart of it. Focusing on how they were the same shortchanges what was added.
I'll start by briefly mentioning the Thrawn books. I bought them, tried to read them, but they never captured my imagination. Just like TFA, it was a story with Star Wars trappings, but it didn't feel like Star Wars. It became too much of a chore to read, and I have up about 3/4 of the way through the first book.

Now, on to your main point. My happy ending comment wasn't directed at the state of the galaxy, it was about the personal success of our heroes. Luke became a true Jedi Master by reaching through to his father and finding a way to redeem him, all while battling against temptation to turn to the dark side in order to defeat an immediate adversary. Han had finally found a place of leadership for himself, truly turning into a selfless hero. And Leia was able to move past her tough chick persona, realize that she had found the love of her life, while strengthening her position of authority in the Rebellion. That those three heroes (and those around them) were able to crack the iron-clad hold of the Empire was icing on the cake, but it was their individual successes that the audiences most identified with. After all, through those movies, they had become like friends to us.

Looking at the bigger picture, it's not unexpected or illogical that the galaxy would have fallen into chaos after the fall of the Empire. Various factions would likely spring up, some growing out of Imperial remnants, some from the idealistic Rebels and Old Republic, the Huts and other criminal elements would also see an opening to expand their influence, and you could even have other new factions vying for power. There's a fresh bed for all kinds of infighting, sabotage, espionage, and conflict. And behind all of that you can still have your light side struggling against the dark side. That's certainly expected and necessary in a Star Wars movie.

And that may actually exist, we just didn't see it in this movie. Even the opening crawl or some toss-away lines could have been used to address it. Kind of like in Empire where Han mentions the bounty hunter they ran into on Ord Mantell. Just that one phrase opened up a host of scenarios in the minds of the viewers, and is an example of how the scope of the movie expanded in a sequel with just a single sentence.

So, let's imagine a galaxy either in flux or still in chaos. And let's think of our heroes as heroes, and how they may have influenced the outcomes and grown themselves over those 30 years. Perhaps at least some of them could have developed into successful mentor roles. It seemed like they had that idea in store for Luke, but even with the knowledge of what befell his father, he still failed miserably. Maybe there's a really good story there, but we just don't know it yet. Han and Leia both regress, and their ideal love ends up failing. That's what I meant about the betrayal of the happy ending. There's no reason that they should have had easy sailing, after all conflict adds interest, but is it too much to ask for at least one of them to not be a loser?

And maybe this was one of the mistakes of the film. They might have been better off just relegating the original cast to a cameo, or killing them all off in the first half of the movie, a la Obi-Wan.

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Could they have setup the conflict a bit differently? Sure. But you would still have a light side/dark side angle. The films have always been about the Skywalker family, so something with the descendants will figure into it. If you do a small character driven arc you'd have the fans complaining about the lack of grandeur. You go big and you essentially have what we got. 2 forces aligned behind the dark/light vying for the fate of the galaxy.

Again it's not a perfect movie. But looking at all the great character moments from the new and old cast added onto the new locations and you have something that, while not wholly original, has enough heart to satisfy. At least for me.
I agree with you here. But I'll go back to the example you had in your earlier post. Jakuu is isolated, and a good place to hide someone. But why create a planet that is identical to Tatooine? There are a ton of different planet types that could also be sparsely populated: Mountains, Oceanside, islands, caves, savannahs, tropical, or even something more otherworldly. But instead they go back to what we've seen before. As if the parallels between Luke and aren't already clear enough. How much effort would it have taken to do something just a little more original? Or heck, why not just go back to Tatooine?

Now, that's just a planet, and planets are not the heart and soul of Star Wars. But symptomatic of the same lack of vision that can be applied to virtually every element of the movie. Maybe they can turn this all around with the next film, and I'm hoping that they do. But it turns out that J.J. just didn't have it in him to make a worthy Star Wars movie, despite the superfluous window dressing.

Scott

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post #639 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 08:29 PM
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I guess I have a vastly different perspective on movies in general. Heaven knows I've spent weeks tolerating a real POS because my services were called upon to work on the movie. In fact, professionalism dictates I give even a POS my best work. Other films may have not been high art, but entertaining, interesting, and made by a team that didn't just "call it in;" they invested in making the best product they could. Some of those were big hits, others were not and were sometimes the most rewarding.

All the critical piety in many of the discussions here is just too much. I guess I'm just more tolerant of this movie and others for their craftsmanship and levels on which they do deliver to get caught up in flaws. You guys need to get your Writers Guild and DGA cards and go to work if you are so sure of your criticisms.
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post #640 of 710 Old 02-10-2016, 08:45 PM
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"A worthy SW film" hmmmm if it were that bad wouldn't it tank at the BO? The backlash would be insane, instead it seems we have a small but very vocal group of people saying "it's not SW".

Most people I know went to see this movie more than once (that rarely happens). The number one thing people said, they had "fun", which was important to bring the younger crowds in. While there was homage and nods paid for those that grew up with the franchise, this just isn't SW for YOU it's for the current young folks that were the same age (teens/younger) when the 1st movies came out. Much like with the prequels, I see much less hate from those that were younger when they came out. If anything the familiarity that was "baked" in helped make this movie a blockbuster.

In the end, there will always be those folks that don't like X with movie Y, and some folks that just wish to be angry at everything I appreciate those folks that have remained civil in their dislike and had rational discussions.


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we have a small but very vocal group of people saying "it's not SW".
My complaint is it's TOO MUCH Star Wars.
In that, no boundaries were pushed by Disney...they simply deconstructed the OT, played its Greatest Hits, and called it a day.

Disney's efforts makes complete sense from a business POV.
As a large profit-seeing corporation, their prime interest was in going for a B.O. "Blockbuster."
They own the SW Universe and can do whatever they choose and I don't begrudge them of their right to do so.

The OT is legendary in many ways...not least of which is the depth of LOVE fans have for it.
This movie (Ep.7) has had 30 years to gestate creatively.
30 years of God knows how many books, comics, and video games.

Most assuredly there was a real hunger among The Faithfull for an exploratory expedition to the vast SW realms of adventures.
And this is exactly where Abrams and Disney failed fans so utterly: by ignoring this and giving into greed by grabbing at the low-hanging gold Lucas left.

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The number one thing people said, they had "fun", which was important to bring the younger crowds in. If anything the familiarity that was "baked" in helped make this movie a blockbuster.
Agreed.



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post #642 of 710 Old 02-11-2016, 03:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I have a vastly different perspective on movies in general. Heaven knows I've spent weeks tolerating a real POS because my services were called upon to work on the movie. In fact, professionalism dictates I give even a POS my best work. Other films may have not been high art, but entertaining, interesting, and made by a team that didn't just "call it in;" they invested in making the best product they could. Some of those were big hits, others were not and were sometimes the most rewarding.

All the critical piety in many of the discussions here is just too much. I guess I'm just more tolerant of this movie and others for their craftsmanship and levels on which they do deliver to get caught up in flaws. You guys need to get your Writers Guild and DGA cards and go to work if you are so sure of your criticisms.
For some reason the forum sofware doesn't allow me to "like" your post* (yet I just did it with another one). So I'll just say that I wholeheartedly agree Cam Man. Perspective...

[edit]*ah! it worked now

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post #643 of 710 Old 02-11-2016, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by srw1000 View Post
I'll start by briefly mentioning the Thrawn books. I bought them, tried to read them, but they never captured my imagination. Just like TFA, it was a story with Star Wars trappings, but it didn't feel like Star Wars. It became too much of a chore to read, and I have up about 3/4 of the way through the first book.

Now, on to your main point. My happy ending comment wasn't directed at the state of the galaxy, it was about the personal success of our heroes. Luke became a true Jedi Master by reaching through to his father and finding a way to redeem him, all while battling against temptation to turn to the dark side in order to defeat an immediate adversary. Han had finally found a place of leadership for himself, truly turning into a selfless hero. And Leia was able to move past her tough chick persona, realize that she had found the love of her life, while strengthening her position of authority in the Rebellion. That those three heroes (and those around them) were able to crack the iron-clad hold of the Empire was icing on the cake, but it was their individual successes that the audiences most identified with. After all, through those movies, they had become like friends to us.

Looking at the bigger picture, it's not unexpected or illogical that the galaxy would have fallen into chaos after the fall of the Empire. Various factions would likely spring up, some growing out of Imperial remnants, some from the idealistic Rebels and Old Republic, the Huts and other criminal elements would also see an opening to expand their influence, and you could even have other new factions vying for power. There's a fresh bed for all kinds of infighting, sabotage, espionage, and conflict. And behind all of that you can still have your light side struggling against the dark side. That's certainly expected and necessary in a Star Wars movie.

And that may actually exist, we just didn't see it in this movie. Even the opening crawl or some toss-away lines could have been used to address it. Kind of like in Empire where Han mentions the bounty hunter they ran into on Ord Mantell. Just that one phrase opened up a host of scenarios in the minds of the viewers, and is an example of how the scope of the movie expanded in a sequel with just a single sentence.

So, let's imagine a galaxy either in flux or still in chaos. And let's think of our heroes as heroes, and how they may have influenced the outcomes and grown themselves over those 30 years. Perhaps at least some of them could have developed into successful mentor roles. It seemed like they had that idea in store for Luke, but even with the knowledge of what befell his father, he still failed miserably. Maybe there's a really good story there, but we just don't know it yet. Han and Leia both regress, and their ideal love ends up failing. That's what I meant about the betrayal of the happy ending. There's no reason that they should have had easy sailing, after all conflict adds interest, but is it too much to ask for at least one of them to not be a loser?

And maybe this was one of the mistakes of the film. They might have been better off just relegating the original cast to a cameo, or killing them all off in the first half of the movie, a la Obi-Wan.

I agree with you here. But I'll go back to the example you had in your earlier post. Jakuu is isolated, and a good place to hide someone. But why create a planet that is identical to Tatooine? There are a ton of different planet types that could also be sparsely populated: Mountains, Oceanside, islands, caves, savannahs, tropical, or even something more otherworldly. But instead they go back to what we've seen before. As if the parallels between Luke and aren't already clear enough. How much effort would it have taken to do something just a little more original? Or heck, why not just go back to Tatooine?

Now, that's just a planet, and planets are not the heart and soul of Star Wars. But symptomatic of the same lack of vision that can be applied to virtually every element of the movie. Maybe they can turn this all around with the next film, and I'm hoping that they do. But it turns out that J.J. just didn't have it in him to make a worthy Star Wars movie, despite the superfluous window dressing.

Scott
Honestly, I think about any planet type they picked would have been paralleled to something else (Hoth, Naboo, Alderaan, etc). The similarity criticism would find a way. It's the hero's journey. You want to find similarities, you absolutely will. I do agree that Jakku being so close to Tatooine and both launching a trilogy was at first glance not a great call for originality. On the flip side it is a great environment to augment how lonely and isolated Rey is. It also is a good way to concentrate the action. In a desert scenario settlements are generally centered around water, so you can plausibly have any action taking place in the same general area. As far similarities in a film series, it's certainly not the only instance. Just to use an example in this thread.

Terminator 1 vs. Terminator 2: Skynet sends agent back in time to try to kill John Connor before he can lead resistance. Resistance sends back protector. Conflict ensues. Heroes destroy agent.

That's given a pass because of the Cyberdyne angle and I can see that. I like both films quite a bit. But it's hypocritical to give that a pass and condemn the TFA. Like it had absolutely nothing new or original to offer.

The idea of Starkiller base gets a lot of flack. And I touched on this before. In a galaxy where planet killing tech is the big stick, it's exactly what a totalitarian faction bent on domination would build. Why is it only in there for x amount of runtime? Because the characters in the film don't know it exists until it destroys the seat of the New Republic and its fleet. It was built in secret to do just what it did. That's why Snoke isn't infuriated that it is destroyed. It did what they wanted it to do. Sure they would have liked to have kept it, but honestly they have reset the galactic chessboard wildly in their favor with it. The Resistance then scrambles to destroy it before it wipes them out too (Finn being the only intel they have). Interestingly we don't see Snoke or Kylo punishing people with death for failure. They seem to value talent and assets more than Vader or Palpatine did. We'll see if that holds true in the next 2.

I can see your angle on the betrayal of the "happy ending". I think you have to be fair to the goal of this film though. You have 2-2.5 hrs to tell a story. You can focus on the old characters, focus on new characters or focus on both. I think the right call was made to introduce the new characters and still have the old play a role. However you have to make concessions on what you can include. Would I have loved to have seen the details on how Ben's fall broke up Han and Leia? Absolutely. I also would have loved to see the fall of Luke's Jedi temple and his decision to exile himself (and the justification the New Republic had in letting the temple fall). But you have to chew screen time to do all that. And if the old characters aren't going to carrying the weight of the trilogy(and I don't think they should) you really don't have the time budget to do all that. The time has to be allotted to making the new characters compelling and their relationship to the old characters established.

My statement on the "happy ending" is more that it is the crux of where this trilogy went. If you have everything falling into place for the heroes you aren't going to have a trilogy that starts off with a huge conflict. You would have to invent the instability and thus start the arc. They chose not to have the events unfold that way and have a fractured galaxy. Which makes sense from a story telling point of view. Simply because right out of the gate you have a large scale conflict to dump everyone into and begin the story. Going the other route would have meant a slow burn in the beginning like the prequels and I don't think audiences would have warmed to it as much.

Yes there are absolutely similarities in this film. Yes I can see places where it could have been a better, more original, film. I respect folks who see this and end up not liking the film because of it. But for me so much works. Han and Chewie's dialogue is great and feels like their relationship in the originals. The escape from Jakku is as thrilling as any of the many escapes we see in the OT. I find it interesting that people dismiss that as being similar to Ep4 when that escape isn't nearly as exciting or involved (they fly away from Storm Troopers and jump into Hyperspace before 2 distant Star Destroyers even get close). BB-8 was as endearing as R2 or 3PO. The scene where he almost knocks over Finn to be reunited with Poe really made me smile (and reinforced how you view their relationship). Maz and her Pirate castle were great. The whole scene on Han's freighter was ton of fun. The dogfights between TR and TFO are spectacular.

No matter where you are at on the TFA, it's certainly going to be interesting to see what the next chapter holds for us.
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post #644 of 710 Old 02-11-2016, 07:28 PM
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I guess I have a vastly different perspective on movies in general. Heaven knows I've spent weeks tolerating a real POS because my services were called upon to work on the movie. In fact, professionalism dictates I give even a POS my best work. Other films may have not been high art, but entertaining, interesting, and made by a team that didn't just "call it in;" they invested in making the best product they could. Some of those were big hits, others were not and were sometimes the most rewarding.
Such a work ethic is admirable, and should be commended.

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All the critical piety in many of the discussions here is just too much. I guess I'm just more tolerant of this movie and others for their craftsmanship and levels on which they do deliver to get caught up in flaws. You guys need to get your Writers Guild and DGA cards and go to work if you are so sure of your criticisms.
The perspective of a professional in the business in of great value in a forum such as this. Even though we're passionate movie fans, and have more than a layman's understand of film craft, we're not experts, most of us are just guys exchanging our viewpoints.

I would welcome and appreciate your views on the actual contents of the posts, rather than just demeaning the posters.

Scott

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post #645 of 710 Old 02-11-2016, 08:43 PM
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"A worthy SW film" hmmmm if it were that bad wouldn't it tank at the BO? The backlash would be insane, instead it seems we have a small but very vocal group of people saying "it's not SW".

Most people I know went to see this movie more than once (that rarely happens). The number one thing people said, they had "fun", which was important to bring the younger crowds in. While there was homage and nods paid for those that grew up with the franchise, this just isn't SW for YOU it's for the current young folks that were the same age (teens/younger) when the 1st movies came out. Much like with the prequels, I see much less hate from those that were younger when they came out. If anything the familiarity that was "baked" in helped make this movie a blockbuster.
I'll just make a few comments on this. It's interesting to see the box office tally brought up. I've made similar points in the past in relation to the prequels, which I genuinely enjoyed (I'll take any of them over TFA). As far as the movie being made for current young folks, I don't think that was the primary goal. While I don't think they intended to exclude new young fans, all the stuff swiped from the originals points to fan service aimed at those most familiar with the originals.

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In the end, there will always be those folks that don't like X with movie Y, and some folks that just wish to be angry at everything I appreciate those folks that have remained civil in their dislike and had rational discussions.
Agreed, having thoughtful discussions is a big attraction to a forum such as this.

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post #646 of 710 Old 02-12-2016, 05:37 AM
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Such a work ethic is admirable, and should be commended.

The perspective of a professional in the business in of great value in a forum such as this. Even though we're passionate movie fans, and have more than a layman's understand of film craft, we're not experts, most of us are just guys exchanging our viewpoints.

I would welcome and appreciate your views on the actual contents of the posts, rather than just demeaning the posters.

Scott
I've commented and contributed plenty in this thread, but it got to be a bit slow and turned into a creative debate thread...so I haven't been around in an while. I returned to find it the same, disappointingly.

I am an "expert," but not on the quality of creative content nor the critique of it, especially if I'm working on the show. It's a bit like the wisdom of military members not becoming too enamored with politicians or policy...because they may well become implements of that policy. That philosophy follows me a bit to movies I didn't work on. If I don't like it, I don't like it...but I don't invest any time in critiquing it. For instance, after all the box office hubbub over Jurassic World, I had to check it out. I lasted 30 minutes and bailed out. All that needed to be said was that I didn't care for the casting; I didn't find the characters engaging. I guess you could say that's why I ended up with my hands on cameras rather than keyboards writing or producing. I could teach a highly advanced class on cinematography, but not screenwriting past 101.

So I just find endless deep critique, discussion, and debate on movies something I don't enjoy engaging in or listening to others do. It seems that the dead horse in the room would begin to smell too much. It strikes me as a glass half empty perspective when I'm a glass half full person. I don't know how threads could be created differently. I suggested to one member who was very unhappy with SW7 to create a thread specifically for negative discussion of the creative elements of the movie. I think he took the suggestion. I guess I need an "I'm okay with SW7" thread. Maybe a thread needs to created like "If I Wrote and Directed SW7 (or whatever), I Would Have...." thread.

By all means, you guys go at it. I will just have to remember that it's not a thread I'll enjoy a lot now, and venture elsewhere.
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post #647 of 710 Old 02-12-2016, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Such a work ethic is admirable,
I guess we could call it integrity. I've been working in this business for more than 15 years now (although not in the same field as Cam Man) - from the cheapest student film to the bigger, award-winning production, the baseline is always the same: give your best.
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post #648 of 710 Old 02-12-2016, 07:38 AM
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I'll just make a few comments on this. It's interesting to see the box office tally brought up. I've made similar points in the past in relation to the prequels, which I genuinely enjoyed (I'll take any of them over TFA). As far as the movie being made for current young folks, I don't think that was the primary goal. While I don't think they intended to exclude new young fans, all the stuff swiped from the originals points to fan service aimed at those most familiar with the originals.

Agreed, having thoughtful discussions is a big attraction to a forum such as this.

Scott
I agree 100% that Box Office is not an indicator of how good a film is. Avatar is a beautiful film that is honestly, to me, a really bad film. Titanic is slightly better, but that's not saying much. Cameron changed after the Abyss (which the Directors Cut is a pretty darn good film). Just my opinions of course. Not wanting to derail this into a "Dances With Cat Smurf's" thread.

The Star Wars prequels are films I wanted to like and I'm glad you enjoy them. I don't find them as horrible as some. But I can't agree that they come close to TFA as far as being a good film. Episode 3 is closest to being a good film. Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, Lucas just was not able to sell Anakin's fall. And I think the character concept was flawed from day 1. We needed to see much more of Anakin's dark nature. The slaughter of the Sand People was a good step towards that, except Padme's reaction ruins it for me. But hey, YOU like them. And again, that's a great thing for you. The world would be pretty boring if we all liked the same things.

I will say this, I connected much more with TFA on the second viewing. The pacing was so relentless that I found myself so busy trying to take everything in that I didn't get as much of an emotional connection that I would have liked. The second viewing I was able to relax and just take in the character interactions. The third viewing was just as enjoyable.
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I'll just make a few comments on this. It's interesting to see the box office tally brought up. I've made similar points in the past in relation to the prequels, which I genuinely enjoyed (I'll take any of them over TFA).
I really, really can't understand this sorry.

George Lucas: "new ships, new planets, new creatures" - here he unintentionally and unfortunately admits that he couldn't care less about acting and actual directing, and it shows in these atrocities that are the prequels (that's just me speaking here - as jeahrens said above, I too wanted to like these films). In The Force Awakens, yes we got familiar ships, familiar planets and familiar creatures - but we also got the best acting and directing of the franchise (ESB notwithstanding). I'll take that any day over his previous "vision".

Anyway... We've gone through this more than a few times - our tastes in movies may differ but our passion for them does not.
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Uh oh...here we go:
(go to 3 minute mark)




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post #651 of 710 Old 03-22-2016, 01:50 PM
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I suggested to one member who was very unhappy with SW7 to create a thread specifically for negative discussion of the creative elements of the movie. I think he took the suggestion.

I guess I need an "I'm okay with SW7" thread. Maybe a thread needs to created like "If I Wrote and Directed SW7 (or whatever), I Would Have...." thread. By all means, you guys go at it. I will just have to remember that it's not a thread I'll enjoy a lot now, and venture elsewhere.
Cam, while I was the rascal who created the "hate-thread", it wasn't because I didn't like TFA. I saw it in 15/70 IMAX, and again on a much smaller screen about 3 weeks later.

That thread creation was an attempt to draw away the trolls who were making intelligent discussion impossible in the main thread. No idea how successful it was, though.
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post #652 of 710 Old 03-22-2016, 02:12 PM
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Cam, while I was the rascal who created the "hate-thread", it wasn't because I didn't like TFA. I saw it in 15/70 IMAX, and again on a much smaller screen about 3 weeks later.

That thread creation was an attempt to draw away the trolls who were making intelligent discussion impossible in the main thread. No idea how successful it was, though.

Pretty much this. There were a few posters who added nothing but "it's stupid/I hate it". I don't think anyone had an issue with a thought out discussion debating what we liked and didn't like.


Sent from nowhere
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post #653 of 710 Old 03-24-2016, 03:38 PM
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post #654 of 710 Old 03-27-2016, 05:19 PM
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Most assuredly there was a real hunger among The Faithfull for an exploratory expedition to the vast SW realms of adventures.
And this is exactly where Abrams and Disney failed fans so utterly: by ignoring this and giving into greed by grabbing at the low-hanging gold Lucas left.

Agreed.
And that's all that was required. They can add a little in the next installment. Money made was the Intent. No need to take a chance when it's Bank. Am I right?

The days of story were over 10 years ago. The days (oh wait, it was likely 20) of ...Oh screw it - Money!!!

Lines of dialog should go up for auction in these stupid series. Perhaps they are already and we didn't get the memo.
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post #655 of 710 Old 03-29-2016, 02:30 PM
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Let me start by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. I saw it five times at the cinema, twice in 3D IMAX, and three times in 3D EMAX (local theater chain has a large screen cinema in each theater with Dolby Atmos sound, I much prefer this to IMAX). I have read many critiques of this movie, and can agree with some of the complaints about story development. But none of these very strongly worded opinions and criticisms of the movie have made me dislike it because it worked very well at entertaining the audience.

But with all that said there is one complaint I do have about this movie. I think Adam Driver was terribly miscast as Kylo Ren. For someone who is supposed to be the biological offspring of Han and Leah, he had absolutely no familial resemblance to either Harrison Ford or Carrie Fisher. None whatsoever.

Packing a lot of sound into a small room.
268 square feet/2144 cubic feet
7.2 surround sound.
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post #656 of 710 Old 03-29-2016, 02:46 PM
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I didn't need to see Solo. Then see Solo die a senseless death. Still enjoyed it overall, and will likely buy the UHD-BD.
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post #657 of 710 Old 03-29-2016, 02:50 PM
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Yeah. They just put him in the movie to appease you Star Wars nerds.

Probably wouldn't have seen it if it weren't for Han and Chewy popping in for their credit.
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post #658 of 710 Old 03-29-2016, 04:14 PM
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You needed to say THE "Star Wars nerds"; I was never a big fan of the OT..
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post #659 of 710 Old 03-29-2016, 04:26 PM
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You = encompasses everybody in this thread/discussion of the movie including myself who can give a rip either way. Enjoyed the movie.
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post #660 of 710 Old 03-30-2016, 07:28 AM
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I liked the film , saw it twice ! my only niggle is how come the spaceship (trying not to give anything away ) didn't land at the top of the mountain thus saving a long hill climb ?
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