Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk in Dolby Vision HDR, 3D, 120 fps, Atmos Sound - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 95 Old 10-30-2016, 02:11 PM
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Lol yes, I don't know how you could think this is a movie about football. It's about a young man (Billy Lynn)'s journey home, from his point of view, after being captured on video during the war performing a heroic act, he comes home for him & his comrades to be paraded around, notably during the halftime show, in the midst of all that, they are chaperoned by a movie producer (Chris Tucker) who wants to make a movie out of their story, Billy also has PTSD, and it's about contrasting as well what the people back home think of war and what it really is for Billy.

The book is incredible, and I have no doubt the movie will be as well. Otherwise, like Joe said, they know what they're doing on downconverting and creating those blended down versions, they might be discovering and learning on 120 fps, but they have been prepping all those versions for a while and they have a couple of top notch techies working on the movie with them, not to mention Doug Trumbull who's working with Ang, Sony & Christie to make sure the projections go better than the NYFF one (which was according to Trumbull projected much too bright and without any shutter closures within the DCP).
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post #32 of 95 Old 10-30-2016, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Manu Delpech View Post
The book is incredible, and I have no doubt the movie will be as well. Otherwise, like Joe said, they know what they're doing on downconverting and creating those blended down versions, they might be discovering and learning on 120 fps, but they have been prepping all those versions for a while and they have a couple of top notch techies working on the movie with them, not to mention Doug Trumbull who's working with Ang, Sony & Christie to make sure the projections go better than the NYFF one (which was according to Trumbull projected much too bright and without any shutter closures within the DCP).
I don't really get the need for that. He used to say he wanted "increased realism, higher frame rates" (and I believe wanted reduced flicker and strobing) and when someone creates a film like that, he wants to reduce realism, and potentially increase flicker/strobing (he also used to say that 3D screenings were running not bright enough, and now says it's too bright).

He's talking about altering it in the digital cinema package. In the digital cinema package (which is basically just a list of image files - mostly - I assume there's other stuff too), can't it just be changed by inserting black frames? So does that mean he intends to make either the left or right eye black while the opposite eye is showing a film frame? The only other way is probably to double the frame rate eg. to blank both simultaneously for a short duration - but surely that's not practical (they'd need to double 120 fps to 240 fps and surely almost no projectors would handle it).

Or is there some setting in a DCP package where you can control things like that without inserting blank image frames in the DCP where projectors could blank between 120 fps frames?

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post #33 of 95 Old 10-30-2016, 04:56 PM
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i'm definitely interested to see more 120hz stuff come down the pipe, HFR and 4k will be of interest as well, but neither will motivate any purchases for me personally.

my goal has ALWAYS been to put myself in the movie, NEVER in the 'theater'. and imo, that's what 24hz limits you to. i never understood why we can go from stereo, to surround, to atmos, or from 1.77:1 to 2.35:1 or black and white to color, and why no amount of resolution is ever enough, but for some silly reason 24hz is considered sacred. now, i HATE frame interpolation, like i won't even watch it at friends houses if they have it turned on. but so far the best video motion i've ever seen was watching native 60hz on a plasma(f8500) from a demo disc. it looks way more natural, and there was no SOE(no frame interpolation). imo, 60hz was far closer to that looking through a window feeling than any 24hz content has ever been.

it's hard for me to judge an entire 'format' based on a 15sec clip of somebody swinging on a hammock, but up til now that's all i've had a chance to look at. so i'm looking forward to seeing 120hz(i'd be happy with 60hz even) sources to see if they live up to my expectations. really, my only complaints with current video is black levels and blurry motion, so any improvements to those specifically will be welcomed by me. any changes to anything else will be treated as distractions, haha
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post #34 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 01:24 AM
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Are you sure the Dolby Cinema was 4k, 120fps per eye?

The demos using the dual Christie projectors were doing that according to some websites.
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post #35 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zhorik View Post
Are you sure the Dolby Cinema was 4k, 120fps per eye?

The demos using the dual Christie projectors were doing that according to some websites.
As I explain in the OP, the Dolby Cinema version I saw was 2K, 120 fps per eye; the presentation at the New York Film Festival (and the 11-minute clip I saw at NAB last April) was 4K, 120 fps per eye using two Christie Mirage projectors, which are not DCI-certified.
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post #36 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 10:03 AM
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According to the Hollywood Reporter, only 2 theatres in the US will be showing the movie at 120fps: "In addition to New York’s AMC Lincoln Square, which has been specially equipped for the NYFF premiere, there is expected to be one theater in Los Angeles that will be upgraded to handle the format. The ArcLight Hollywood is believed to be under consideration, although no deal is yet in place."

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post #37 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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According to the Hollywood Reporter, only 2 theatres in the US will be showing the movie at 120fps: "In addition to New York’s AMC Lincoln Square, which has been specially equipped for the NYFF premiere, there is expected to be one theater in Los Angeles that will be upgraded to handle the format. The ArcLight Hollywood is believed to be under consideration, although no deal is yet in place."
Yep, that's my understanding, though AFAIK, only two theaters in the US will be showing the movie at 120 fps in 4K. I'm waiting to hear the official announcement of which LA theater it will be. I'm also trying to verify that it will be 120 fps/2K in Dolby Cinemas.

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post #38 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 12:36 PM
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Yep, that's my understanding, though AFAIK, only two theaters in the US will be showing the movie at 120 fps in 4K. I'm waiting to hear the official announcement of which LA theater it will be.
Though the Arclight was mentioned in the Hollywood Reporter article as a possible candidate for the "whole shebang" (as Lee calls it), there's been no official confirmation yet.
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I'm also trying to verify that it will be 120 fps/2K in Dolby Cinemas.
Please keep us posted. I'm more interested in the 120fps part than 4K or 3D, so I'd be willing to catch it at a local Dolby Cinema (Burbank or Norwalk).

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post #39 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 01:34 PM
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I agree, I don't see the point in downscaling a 2160p image to 1080p then upscaling it back to 2160p and shipping that. There is literally no point in doing that. And nobody uses pixel doubling, outside of fringe 8-bit gamers. Nobody. I'm not sure that's what they're saying anyway, if they have a 2K 120 fps copy I'm not sure why they should ship that as a 4K DCI package. I'm actually fairly certain that they wouldn't, because it would be utterly moronic.

But don't worry about the pixel doubling, it just wouldn't happen. Upscaling always uses bilinear or bicubic (usually bilinear according to Technicolor because bicubic upscaling creates ringing artifacts which are visible).
I don't know about Technicolor, but none of the movies I have worked on have used bilinear or bicubic. The most widely used platform for making DCP's utilizes a multi-tap filter with sharpening. You can tune a filter in various ways to mitigate ringing.

I wouldn't worry about the specifics too much. I'd expect someone technically minded ran tests, and Ang Lee would have picked the one that looked best to him.
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post #40 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 01:38 PM
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There was such an obviously click-bait-ey article about this one in Slate recently:

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/m...watchable.html

The title says "It's also unwatchable" meanwhile the content of the article says this:

"A Japanese researcher, who published his work several months before the release of The Hobbit, found that people were better at perceiving depth cues in high-frame-rate 3-D films, where the moving images appeared more “natural.” Two years later, a team of Canadian researchers published an experiment in which they showed 3-D movies to volunteers at different frame rates, then asked them to rate the movies’ quality on a scale of 1 to 100. The HFR videos got the highest ratings by far, scoring 55 percent higher than standard clips.
The most effective scenes in Billy Lynn are the ones that seem the least movielike.

These two studies, and several others like them, show that people think HFR clips are pretty snazzy. But they don’t have much to say about whether anyone actually prefers them. (An experimental subject might conclude, for example, that HFR is at once “natural,” “high quality” and “a ****ing crime against cinema.”) Another vision researcher, Laurie Wilcox of York University, has recently addressed the latter question. In her study, titled “Evidence that Viewers Prefer Higher Frame-Rate Film,” viewers rated short movies on four technical attributes (realism, clarity, depth quality, and smoothness of motion) as well as on their overall likability. On every measure, including the all-important last one, her subjects said the HFR clips were superior. That preference has been remarkably consistent across her work, she says, and it applies to both 2-D and 3-D content."


So, in short, HFR isn't in fact unwatchable, because people prefer watching it, because they like watching it more ("likeability was superior").

What this all tells me is that anyone who claims that HFR is "unnatural" is using the term incorrectly, since higher frame rates naturally approximate reality better, hence are more natural. Ergo, they are claiming 24p is more natural when in fact it is less natural, and falsely too. This is dishonest.

The research data speaks for itself: people prefer HFR, when given the choice.
Clips do not a movie make. I personally am very skeptical. I was all on-board for the Hobbit at 48fps and thought it just horrible. Assuming there will be an actual venue within a 90 minute drive, I'll go and take a look. I'll be very interested to hear the reaction from the public who have seen it - it is they, not tech-nerd types like us that will determine the viability of the technology in the Marketplace.
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post #41 of 95 Old 10-31-2016, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Though the Arclight was mentioned in the Hollywood Reporter article as a possible candidate for the "whole shebang" (as Lee calls it), there's been no official confirmation yet.
Correct; I will share what I learn about this ASAP.

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I'm more interested in the 120fps part than 4K or 3D, so I'd be willing to catch it at a local Dolby Cinema (Burbank or Norwalk).
I agree; I'm waiting for confirmation of exactly what presentation specs will be used in Dolby Cinemas. Stay tuned...
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post #42 of 95 Old 11-01-2016, 03:21 PM
 
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I bet any money that due to the reduction in blur, going from 24 fps to 120 fps will suddenly make the difference between 2K and 4K much more visible, at least during action parts.

This is why, for example, I can't for the life of me understand why people would upgrade to a 4K TV whilse still using 24p video. The parts that are moving around, namely people, cars, etc, are blurring the very parts of the image that draw the eye.

Did Cameron actually confirm he'll be using 120 fps like Ang Lee for the Avatar sequels? Or is he staying with 60 fps.
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post #43 of 95 Old 11-01-2016, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Interestingly, during the Q&A after the screening of BLLHW, Ang Lee said that frame rates up to 60 fps look artificial to him; obviously, this would include The Hobbit at 48 fps. He said that only at 120 fps does the image look natural. I maintain that HFR can, in fact, take the viewer away from the real world by greater immersion in the depicted world, and if Ang Lee is right, it takes 120 fps to do that. You may disagree, which is fine, but I encourage you to try to see this movie at 120 fps to discover if you feel the same about it as you did with The Hobbit.
100% this. While I ONLY watched the Hobbit films in HFR and thought it was the greatest theater "experience" I've ever had, I agree that they went too safe, the real problem most people had with the HFR was that it wasn't high enough! 48fps is sort of an uncanny valley between the 24 we are used to and the 120 that would actually give us the blur free motion our eyes would prefer.

Every freakin Marvel film since the first Hobbit, it annoys the crud out of me because now that I know what HFR looks like I can't stand the blurry mess of action and fight scenes in Low Frame Rate (if you had a video game running at 24p, you'd call that a frame rate issue).
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post #44 of 95 Old 11-02-2016, 08:21 AM
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Did Cameron actually confirm he'll be using 120 fps like Ang Lee for the Avatar sequels? Or is he staying with 60 fps.
Cameron initially claimed that he'd shoot them at 60 fps but then later backed that down to 48 fps. However, that was a few years ago, well before he'd actually shot a frame of footage. If his plans changed again after that, I haven't heard it.

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post #45 of 95 Old 11-02-2016, 11:15 AM
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Cameron also said he doesn't really like the HFR on traditional dialogue scenes, but rather for the rest, and I kind of agree. Well, I wouldn't trade 24 fps for anything else, except on select films, but watching Dr Strange the other day, I kept thinking during some of the action scenes "jesus f***, you can't see anything really, plus it's cut really fast", then again, using HFR on action that's not like totally CG is going to be a dead giveaway for stunt doubles as well, some said also with the 4K 120 fps 3D in Billy Lynn, you not only notice the acting more (which is what Ang said, actors have to be more natural because you see everything) but also that the extras in the background are terrible.

Now, about the action, if you have long takes, single shots, that's the way to go, but for the other stuff, it could benefit from a higher framerate, but you'll lose that movie magic. It seems also from a thread on Film-tech that Sony is pulling back from a wide HFR release, some people in the know said there will only be in the US the 4K 120 fps 3D (as planned), the Dolby Cinema versions, and the rest will be 24 fps 2D for the rest, apparently, some were showing the technical tests they received to make sure they could display the film properly and there were some worrying pics of tests failing. Apparently, there will be more HFR shows overseas (hope so), but it would seem Sony is getting cold feet, or perhaps would rather avoid a media fiasco with unproperly projected HFR shows. I remember The Hateful Eight's messy 70mm roll-out, I saw an impeccable 70mm print, but many did not.

Me think Sony would rather have limited HFR showings in Dolby Cinema theaters and the limited 4K 120 fps 3D ones, something they can have some control over, terrible HFR shows could be very harmful. The Academy is also going to see the movie in 2D 24 fps, which is a smart move.
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post #46 of 95 Old 11-02-2016, 12:13 PM
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Cameron initially claimed that he'd shoot them at 60 fps but then later backed that down to 48 fps. However, that was a few years ago, well before he'd actually shot a frame of footage. If his plans changed again after that, I haven't heard it.
Surely this is the initial article, where he says "48 is the magic number" and "maybe on Avatar 2" http://variety.com/2008/digital/feat...-d-1117983864/

I didn't think he ever said he'd shoot them at 60 fps did he? I thought he was always undecided (he did show demo clips at 24, 48 and 60 I think). Though I think he did more or less back down to 48 fps quite recently (or shortly after the Hobbit film(s)) - or was it that he was still thinking of whichever became the in-use standard for projectors?.If it's true that they're using the Red Weapon camera at 8K for the live action, then that will limit them to 75 fps max for live action.
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post #47 of 95 Old 11-02-2016, 12:33 PM
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100% this. While I ONLY watched the Hobbit films in HFR and thought it was the greatest theater "experience" I've ever had, I agree that they went too safe, the real problem most people had with the HFR was that it wasn't high enough! 48fps is sort of an uncanny valley between the 24 we are used to and the 120 that would actually give us the blur free motion our eyes would prefer.
120 fps at 360 degree shutter isn't totally blur free though (it's around 8.33 milliseconds). Normal 24 fps film (at the normal 180 degree shutter) is 2.5x the blur though.
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Every freakin Marvel film since the first Hobbit, it annoys the crud out of me because now that I know what HFR looks like I can't stand the blurry mess of action and fight scenes in Low Frame Rate (if you had a video game running at 24p, you'd call that a frame rate issue).
Sometimes the fight sequences have a lot less blur than normal at 24 fps (eg. some fight sequences in Captain America: Winter Soldier use a lot less shutter duration than a normally used 180 degree shutter) - so there the judder/strobing of the action/camera (and strobing is increased with a shorter shutter duration) is what can make it harder to see what's going on. Plus sometimes action is sped up compared to normal. At 24 fps, fight sequences with a 180 degree shutter would be easier to watch/see what's happening properly than with a very short shutter (and quick cuts, shaky camera etc.) - since the blur with a 180 degree shutter (in comparison to a higher speed shutter) would mean less big gaps in motion.

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post #48 of 95 Old 11-03-2016, 09:12 AM
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Cinerama Dome, New York Lincoln Square To Show 4K Version Of Ang Lee’s ‘Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk’
http://deadline.com/2016/11/ang-lee-...4k-1201847866/

BREAKING: Ang Lee’s visually stunning Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk will be screened both coasts in its 4K version. Beginning today, moviegoers can watch the film in the 120 frames per second (fps) at ArcLight Cinema’s Cinerama Dome in Hollywood. The high frame rate makes the viewer feel like they are actually in the scene, standing next to the actors, almost as if eavesdropping on conversations. Billy Lynn’s Long Halftime Walk will also show in New York Lincoln’s Square on the East Coast in the same high-frame speed.

The film, which premiered in the format at the New York Film Festival, is the first ever to be shot at this high of a frame rate. It actually was shot at more than twice the previous record held by Peter Jackson’s The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, which clocked in at 48fps. The standard, for point of comparison, is 24 fps. Lee has talked about the Herculean effort behind the $40M film with particular attention to every last detail — costuming, make-up, lighting — as to appear real and pure for the 4K version.

The Cinerama Dome is the only theater on the West Coast that will be showing the film in 4K, the way Lee envisioned it. Of more than 150,000 digital cinemas worldwide, Cinerama Dome is one of only a half-dozen that can project the film in 3D, at a 4K resolution and at 120fps per eye (courtesy of the Christie Mirage system).

Tri-Star is releasing the film in 800+ theaters on Nov. 11 before going wide in lower speed frame versions.
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post #49 of 95 Old 11-03-2016, 03:33 PM
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I would love to see this movie in its native format but the technology needed for that like Dolby Atmos, Dolby Cinema and high frame rate is trickling out at such a slow rate. I may never see it apart the present 2k theater format.
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post #50 of 95 Old 11-04-2016, 05:26 AM
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I would love to see this movie in its native format but the technology needed for that like Dolby Atmos, Dolby Cinema and high frame rate is trickling out at such a slow rate. I may never see it apart the present 2k theater format.
I wouldn't really say Dolby Cinema/Dolby Vision is the film's native format - though it was shot with the Sony CineAlta F65 which can capture a higher dynamic range. They did a Dolby Vision/HDR grade on it but it's native format is really 4K, 120 fps 3D. eg. there was a video where they're talking about it and spend most of it talking of 120 fps, 3D and 4K and near the end they mention, when asked that they'll do a HDR grade on it. They say they "protected for it through shoot and post" but it doesn't sound like it's the main/most important format of the film from the film maker's perspective (eg. I don't think any of them mentioned it in the hour long talk before the question was later asked).
See 1:05:00 on:

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post #51 of 95 Old 11-04-2016, 03:32 PM
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I wouldn't really say Dolby Cinema/Dolby Vision is the film's native format - though it was shot with the Sony CineAlta F65 which can capture a higher dynamic range. They did a Dolby Vision/HDR grade on it but it's native format is really 4K, 120 fps 3D. eg. there was a video where they're talking about it and spend most of it talking of 120 fps, 3D and 4K and near the end they mention, when asked that they'll do a HDR grade on it. They say they "protected for it through shoot and post" but it doesn't sound like it's the main/most important format of the film from the film maker's perspective (eg. I don't think any of them mentioned it in the hour long talk before the question was later asked).
See 1:05:00 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7jnDD1v4P0
Regardless, everything needed to see this movie and other technology showcase features as the filmmakers intended are not spreading the theater multiplexes nationwide outside Los Angeles and New York City.
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post #52 of 95 Old 11-04-2016, 04:24 PM
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Because it costs a million bucks for the upgrade basically. There will still be the Dolby Vision 2K 120 fps 3D & 2D version in Dolby Theaters.
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post #53 of 95 Old 11-05-2016, 12:33 PM
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This is a different article on the film...
http://variety.com/2016/film/news/bi...an-1201908845/

It says Tom Rothman (Chairman of Sony motion pictures) wanted Ang to use a lower frame rate for various scenes, especially those backstage at the football game (eg. by frame blending), but that Ang Lee ultimately decided not to (though I thought they already said they used 3 different "gears". Or perhaps they were just saying they could use different frame rates within 120 fps, and testing them, but ultimately decided not to (within 120 fps). Or perhaps they just didn't lower the frame rate (enough - eg. down to 24 fps) for the specific scenes Tom Rothman asked them to)). The article then says Rothman decided not to "outfit the hundreds of theaters "like they did with the Hobbit" with the required projectors". [I didn't think they did actually do that with the Hobbits - just that they did tests before hand to determine which would play okay. But they did tests before hand with the Billy Lynn film too - though perhaps - like that film-tech forum said, the tests could have been better - eg. maybe also including a trailer/colour.].

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post #54 of 95 Old 11-05-2016, 03:31 PM
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Interesting article but Tom Rothman is known to be a tool and usually has pretty poor relationships with the people he works with, not surprised Ang didn't go with it. Having a good chunk of the movie possibly shot at 24 fps and the rest at 120 fps or just having the framerate going down to 24 within the movie would be, I think, even more jarring. At the very least, with most of the film between 60 & 120 fps, there shouldn't be any violent, disconcerting change or disconnect. About Rothman not outfitting hundreds of theaters for the whole shebang (as Ang calls it), that was never going to happen, especially for a 40 million dollar film, when the cost of outfitting a screening room for 4K 120 fps 3D is about a million bucks.

And yup, many theaters did have to be upgraded for The Hobbit though, the release was definitely a limited HFR one for the first one, more were outfitted by DOS, etc.
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post #55 of 95 Old 11-06-2016, 10:03 PM
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Anyone know if an official list has been released of theaters showing it and at what specs?
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post #56 of 95 Old 11-08-2016, 12:16 PM
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We just know for sure that November 11th will be 4K 120 fps 3D in NY (AMC Lincoln Theater) & LA (Arclight Hollywood), that's it.

Wide release with 4K 120 fps 3D in the same two, 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision in Dolby Theaters, 24 fps 2D for the rest, and we don't know for sure if the other versions will be flying around or if it'll just be 24 fps.
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post #57 of 95 Old 11-08-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manu Delpech View Post
We just know for sure that November 11th will be 4K 120 fps 3D in NY (AMC Lincoln Theater) & LA (Arclight Hollywood), that's it.

Wide release with 4K 120 fps 3D in the same two, 2K 120 fps 3D/2D Dolby Vision in Dolby Theaters, 24 fps 2D for the rest, and we don't know for sure if the other versions will be flying around or if it'll just be 24 fps.
I'm not sure when, if ever, it will play in Dolby Cinemas. It has not been advertised on the Dolby site. And Fantastic Beasts is definitely booked for Dolby Cinemas starting the 17th. Then Moana the week after. Maybe they'll squeeze in the week between Moana and La La Land.
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post #58 of 95 Old 11-08-2016, 02:02 PM
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I saw the trailer before Doctor Strange at the local Dolby Cinema, and though I liked the premise of the story/movie, I didn't get a good vibe how the juxtaposition of combat sequences with the halftime celebrations could fill a movie-length narrative. The trailer did not do a good job at all showing the potential in the story - and the trailer could have been mistaken for a low budget CW or History channel made-for-TV movie. Hopefully the full length movie handles this better. If it takes the "Courage Under Fire" approach to progressively unraveling the story in layers, it could be better. I'll probably catch the movie on BluRay in a few months.
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post #59 of 95 Old 11-08-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I'm not sure when, if ever, it will play in Dolby Cinemas. It has not been advertised on the Dolby site. And Fantastic Beasts is definitely booked for Dolby Cinemas starting the 17th. Then Moana the week after. Maybe they'll squeeze in the week between Moana and La La Land.
It is playing there.

The book is great by the way, should make for a very unique movie.
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post #60 of 95 Old 11-08-2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
I'm not sure when, if ever, it will play in Dolby Cinemas. It has not been advertised on the Dolby site. And Fantastic Beasts is definitely booked for Dolby Cinemas starting the 17th. Then Moana the week after. Maybe they'll squeeze in the week between Moana and La La Land.
The Atlanta area Dolby Cinema has not scheduled any movies at all for the week starting the 11th. They have scheduled Fantastic Beasts in the AMC Prime house for the following week as you note. I suspect they are working out with the distributors how to exhibit this before they commit to show times.
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