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post #4861 of 4911 Old 09-03-2019, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by exevans View Post
Sorry I didn't see the original post asking about channel 61.6 when it was posted. I just checked now, 10 am Monday morning, and it is there, so maybe it was a temporary glitch. It looks like they are showing I Love Lucy right now.
Thanks for checking. Yep, Decades is back today. I guess they realized this morning that they were off the air.
I get WWLM on channel 20 in Washington, PA, which seems to be a repeater for WOSC. I just did a rescan and WWLM doesnt have Decades but according to https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...h&callsign=267 it should be coming soon.
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post #4862 of 4911 Old 09-03-2019, 04:18 PM
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[quote=blackbears7079;58509094]I get WWLM on channel 20 in Washington, PA, which seems to be a repeater for WOSC.


WWLM is indeed a repeater for WOSC. In addition, WOSC has repeaters in Uniontown, Charleroi and Butler. Decades is already on the air here in Pittsburgh, and most likely will appear in the other towns before too long.
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post #4863 of 4911 Old 09-05-2019, 08:16 AM
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WPTG 69.1 has been granted a request to suspend operations, and go silent.
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post #4864 of 4911 Old 09-05-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by tort2017 View Post
WPTG 69.1 has been granted a request to suspend operations, and go silent.

That's odd. HC2 Holdings purchased WPTG from The Video House last January, along with WWAT-CD, WTOO-CD, and WBYD-CD for $3.3 million. Seems strange HC2 would be closing down WPTG after shelling out so much cash just 8 months later.
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post #4865 of 4911 Old 09-06-2019, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbf View Post
That's odd. HC2 Holdings purchased WPTG from The Video House last January, along with WWAT-CD, WTOO-CD, and WBYD-CD for $3.3 million. Seems strange HC2 would be closing down WPTG after shelling out so much cash just 8 months later.


A simple explanation for requesting special temporary authority to go silent:

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post #4866 of 4911 Old 09-06-2019, 07:38 AM
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A simple explanation for requesting special temporary authority to go silent:

That's good news. The sound and picture on 69.2 have been out of sync for days (at least). Hopefully, the suspension will not be too lengthy. Thanks for the explanation.
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post #4867 of 4911 Old 09-12-2019, 08:12 AM
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Even though it is off air, WPTG will ad the sub-channel NewsNet when it returns.
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post #4868 of 4911 Old 09-12-2019, 01:18 PM
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Even though it is off air, WPTG will ad the sub-channel NewsNet when it returns.
Not sure when WPTG is going to go silent, but as of today (9/12) the station is still on the air.
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post #4869 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 11:10 AM
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Multiple Channel Locations & Scan Only Channel List TV

TV is a Hisense 55h7b which doesn't have the ability to add a channel manually to the list

Antenna is a CM4228 w/CM7777 amp (original with VHF & UHF inputs - NOTE: This is an issue for the 4228 with Hi-VHF capability.)

I'm in Jeannette, PA 15644 and can get stations from Pittsburgh and Johnstown which are basically in opposite directions.

This has to be a common problem, but my searches came up with nothing
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post #4870 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
TV is a Hisense 55h7b which doesn't have the ability to add a channel manually to the list

Antenna is a CM4228 w/CM7777 amp (original with VHF & UHF inputs - NOTE: This is an issue for the 4228 with Hi-VHF capability.)

I'm in Jeannette, PA 15644 and can get stations from Pittsburgh and Johnstown which are basically in opposite directions.

This has to be a common problem, but my searches came up with nothing
Hello, 6volt

It is a common problem. If you want more than the channels from Pittsburgh, and you can't add a channel after scan, it gets complicated. The solution depends upon exactly which channels you want and the signals at your particular location. What does your TVFool or rabbiters.info signal report look like for you exact location? Small changes in location in hilly terrain can make big differences in the signals.

A generic TVFool report for the intersection of Gaskill Ave and S Second St looks like this:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90382fe9ccd743

A generic report from rabbitears.info looks like this:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12094


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-1st-post.html

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post #4871 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 05:09 PM
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First, I had not watched OTA since last year and was only getting 2.1. I then learned that broadcast channels are always being reassigned due to FCC band auctions. I did a rescan and got

2 cbs, 4 abc, 11 nbc, 16 ion, 22 mytv, 40 wpcb, and 53 fox
:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90381c3d8b0567

The problem is the channel database is evidently not up to date for my location:

Fool does NOT SHOW some channels I get: 22, 40, 53

Fool shows 8.1 as FOX as the strongest signal but from Johnstown (123* mag) , not Pittsburgh (302* mag)


I would like to get 19.1 CW, which is between 2.1 and 11.1 by signal and the same bearing. According to Fool, I should be getting it. I checked and 19.1 is broadcasting on channel 11 as shown in Fool. So why don't I get it???

Last edited by 6volt; 09-15-2019 at 07:33 PM.
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post #4872 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 06:54 PM
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Looks like RabbitEars.info has way better database. It shows 19.1 having a lower signal than all I get AND I just noticed I don't get 13.1 either - and that one is just above 19.1 in strength. EXCEPT it shows 4.1 being weaker than 13 & 19. But still, this list makes more sense.

Study Date/Time 2019-09-15 21:33:27ET
Study Location 40.34**, -79.62**
Receive Height 30'
Search Distance 60 miles
Instructions Click here.
Sort By
Units
Current Station Search List Post-Repack Search List
Current Station Search Map Post-Repack Search Map


Channel Callsign Network Community
of License State Map Transmitter
Distance
(Miles) Direction
(True) Direction
(Magnetic) Field Strength
(dBuV/m) Signal
Margin
(dB) Repack
Info

40‑1 (28) WPCB-TV REL GREENSBURG PA _9.6 294.5° 304.1° 83.31 Fair 43.17 L
11‑1 (23) WPXI-TV NBC PITTSBURGH PA 22.2 293.5° 303.1° 69.52 Fair 29.86 L
_2‑1 (25) KDKA-TV CBS PITTSBURGH PA 23.8 297.4° 307.0° 68.24 Fair 28.39
22‑1 (42) WPNT-TV My_ PITTSBURGH PA 23.2 298.5° 308.1° 65.52 Fair 24.16 7
53‑1 (43) WPGH-TV FOX PITTSBURGH PA 23.2 298.5° 308.1° 65.46 Fair 24.02 7
16‑1 (16) WINP-TV ION PITTSBURGH PA 19.8 292.8° 302.4° 64.17 Fair 25.23 R

13‑1 (_4) WQED-TV PBS PITTSBURGH PA 19.8 292.8° 302.4° 63.02 Fair 35.02 L
19‑1 (11) WPCW-TV CW_ JEANNETTE_ PA 23.8 297.4° 307.0° 62.02 Fair 26.02


_4‑1 (27) WTAE-TV ABC PITTSBURGH PA 10.6 248.8° 258.4° 60.96 Poor 20.91 L
_8‑1 (_8) WWCP-TV FOX JOHNSTOWN_ PA 26.7 113.4° 123.0° 60.28 Poor 24.28

\
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post #4873 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
First, I had not watched OTA since last year and was only getting 2.1. I then learned that broadcast channels are always being reassigned due to FCC band auctions. I did a rescan and got

2 cbs, 4 abc, 11 nbc, 16 ion, 22 mytv, 40 wpcb, and 53 fox
:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90381c3d8b0567


The problem is the channel database is evidently not up to date for my location:
Yes, the TVFool database has many errors. Their staff is too small to make corrections, especially now with so many changes from Repack by the FCC. Thank you for the report. Although it has errors, it is still useful for an analysis.

It looks like you also did a rabbitears report. What is the link or ID number for that report? I would like to be able to see the terrain profiles available. Your location will not be compromised any more than the information you have already given, because the coordinates are truncated and the marker on the map has been shifted.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...-1st-post.html

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post #4874 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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You ran your TVFool report at 15 ft, but the rabbitears report at 30 ft. What is the correct antenna height?

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #4875 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 07:41 PM
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RabbitEars Report: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12130

Antenna height should be 15' (I did sensitivity studies and it didn't amount to a hill-o-beans - I cam get a free +20' if I go to the far corner of my lot but that would require 100' of coax. I've got RG59 and maybe should upgrade to RG6, but I think there are even more lossless cables. I have about 30' run now, but if I put my antenna on a rotor mast, it will be more like 50-60'
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post #4876 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 07:53 PM
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At 100 mHz RG58 attn is 4.9 db while RG6 is 2.0 @ 100'

At 30' that would be 1 db. Might be worth it.

It also looks like the CW might be using a Johnstown transmitter which is a "Multiple Location" situation.
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post #4877 of 4911 Old 09-15-2019, 08:02 PM
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Thank you for the rabbitears link.


The coax losses are higher for UHF.


It's getting late; I'll study your report and come back tomorrow.


First thing I notice is that the 4228 doesn't do well for VHF-High (real channels 7-13), and rabbitears.info reports add a negative correction factor to VHF-High channels which ranks them lower because of the increased noise level on that band. Note the two Foxes have about the same signal margin but the field strength has been reduced for the VHF Fox.

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post #4878 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
First, I had not watched OTA since last year and was only getting 2.1. I then learned that broadcast channels are always being reassigned due to FCC band auctions. I did a rescan and got

2 cbs, 4 abc, 11 nbc, 16 ion, 22 mytv, 40 wpcb, and 53 fox
:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90381c3d8b0567

The problem is the channel database is evidently not up to date for my location:

Fool does NOT SHOW some channels I get: 22, 40, 53

Fool shows 8.1 as FOX as the strongest signal but from Johnstown (123* mag) , not Pittsburgh (302* mag)
It is the real channel number (also called physical channel or RF channel) that determines what antenna is needed.

VHF-Low, real channels 2-6
VHF-High, real channels 7-13
UHF, real channels 14-51, soon to be 14 to 36

The virtual channel number (like 5.1 or 5-1) is a holdover from the analog TV days to maintain the identity of the station, and is what the TV displays. By convention, the virtual channel number is given in the decimal form to keep it from being confused with the real channel number.

2 cbs, is KDKA real channel 25, virtual channel 2.1

4 abc, is WTAE real 27, virtual 4.1 at 249 deg true,
there is also a weaker WTAE real 22 at 293 deg true

11 nbc, WPXI real 23, virtual 11.1; there other weaker WPXI transmitters

16 ion, WINP real 16, virtual 16.1, running at reduced coverage note "R"

22 mytv, WPNT real 42, virtual 22.1, moving to real 21 during Repack Phase 7

40 wpcb, real 28, virtual 40.1

and 53 fox, WPGH real 43, virtual 53.1, moving to real 20 during Repack Phase 7

There is also WWCP Fox on real channel 8, virtual channel 8.1 at 113 deg true, which would require an antenna for VHF-High.
Quote:
I would like to get 19.1 CW, which is between 2.1 and 11.1 by signal and the same bearing. According to Fool, I should be getting it. I checked and 19.1 is broadcasting on channel 11 as shown in Fool. So why don't I get it???
That is WPCW real channel 11, which is a VHF-High channel. Your antenna is designed for UHF channels. You can add a VHF antenna to your 4228 or replace the 4228 with an antenna for UHF and VHF.
Quote:

13‑1 (_4) WQED-TV PBS PITTSBURGH PA 19.8 292.8° 302.4° 63.02 Fair 35.02 L
1
9‑1 (11) WPCW-TV CW_ JEANNETTE_ PA 23.8 297.4° 307.0° 62.02 Fair 26.02
WQED is on real channel 4, which is a VHF-Low channel. Antennas that are designed to receive VHF-Low channels (real channels 2-6) have very long elements. An antenna that is designed for UHF channels can pick up VHF channels if they are very strong. If your UHF antenna is able to receive the VHF channels you want, it doesn't mean you are using the correct antenna, it means you are lucky.
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post #4879 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 09:45 AM
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The 4228 is usually acknowledged to work OK in Hi-VHF (and antenna tests also include that band.)
I've gotten H-VHF channel 13 in the past which is Real 4 which is L-VHF

HOWEVER, my CM7777 has the dual inputs: VHF and UHF and my 4228 is obviously connected to UHF.

QUESTION: Is there some kind of splitter to allow input to both 7777 inputs?

PROPOSED TEST: Run scan with 4228 on 7777 VHF input and see if I get 13 ad 19...
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post #4880 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
The 4228 is usually acknowledged to work OK in Hi-VHF (and antenna tests also include that band.)
I've gotten H-VHF channel 13 in the past which is Real 4 which is L-VHF
It will work OK IF the VHF channels are strong enough.

Quote:
HOWEVER, my CM7777 has the dual inputs: VHF and UHF and my 4228 is obviously connected to UHF.





The original CM7777 with two inputs has a switch inside that can be set to separate or combined. With just one antenna as you have now it should be set to combined and the antenna should be connected to the UHF input. If you don't get all the VHF channels you want, then you can replace the 4228 with a UHF/VHF combo antenna and connect it to the UHF input with the switch still set to combined.

Another alternative, if you don't get all the VHF-High channels you want, like WPCW on real channel 11, is to add a VHF-High antenna, set the switch to separate, and connect the VHF-High antenna to the VHF input.

Quote:
QUESTION: Is there some kind of splitter to allow input to both 7777 inputs?
You don't need that with the original 7777 with dual inputs.

Quote:
PROPOSED TEST: Run scan with 4228 on 7777 VHF input and see if I get 13 ad 19...
That might be an interesting test to see what the 4228 can do on VHF, but be sure to set the internal switch to separate.
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post #4881 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 10:43 AM
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MY BAD! Yes, I have the original and there are 2 inputs: VHF+UHF and VHF - as shown in your 2nd pic.

Right now I'm going to work on an antenna position that allowed me to get 13.1 (real 4). Of course I don't know if they've changed their real channel frequency....
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post #4882 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
MY BAD! Yes, I have the original and there are 2 inputs: VHF+UHF and VHF - as shown in your 2nd pic.

Right now I'm going to work on an antenna position that allowed me to get 13.1 (real 4). Of course I don't know if they've changed their real channel frequency....
WQED is staying on real channel 4:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...=41315#station

As you can see from the Repack Plan, WQED moved from real channel 13 to real channel 4 during Phase 4:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

Transition schedule:
https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-in...ition-schedule

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post #4883 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 11:20 AM
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If you click on the Transmitter Distance in your rabbitears.info report, you will see a terrain profile. You are behind a hill for WQED and WPCW.



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post #4884 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Yes, the TVFool database has many errors. Their staff is too small to make corrections, especially now with so many changes from Repack by the FCC. Thank you for the report. Although it has errors, it is still useful for an analysis.
Actually, some of us on AVS believe that the webmaster for TV Fool threw in the towel on his creation two years ago. The database is frozen in time in July 2017. Trip of Rabbit Ears fame tried to contact him about a year ago to offer any help, but got no response. So, he created his own signal finder tool. I just wish word about this got around faster. It would save time and effort for people like 6volt. (screed over)
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post #4885 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 06:37 PM
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Wow, I didn't know Rabbit could do that - thanks!

I'm trying to find those plots, where are they? Found them (click on distance from the table.) Problem is that my location based on address is way off - a few hundred feet up my street which is up hill and away from obscuring hills. I moved, by eye, the curson to where my house is approximately and wow, things turned to crap - two of my FAIR channels turned to POOR. I need to get google maps up and get some accurate positions for Rabbit. My approximate location: (note, I am in the shadow of hills for all channels I receive https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12361

NOTE: A really good tool would be signal strength vs antenna height. This would allow someone to determine cost/reward for various mounts.

I do know that a lot of my channels are dealing with multipath - signal strength varies greatly with small antenna rotations. Maybe I got 13 (real 4) from a reflection? NOTE: I found some maps with what appears to be a cursor at my locations - only problem it isn't - I wonder if the cursor is at the truncated long & lat?

I have my 4228 on a hospital IV stand with rollers - I go out on the porch and move it around. I have a couple rotor setups, I should set one up on the IV stand so I can rotate while watching signal strength on my TV (which unfortunately stays up for only maybe 10 seconds, then you have to navigate back to that window again. Analog was so easy to aim...)

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post #4886 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 07:02 PM
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Andy Lee's Noise Margin Diagrams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Actually, some of us on AVS believe that the webmaster for TV Fool threw in the towel on his creation two years ago. The database is frozen in time in July 2017. Trip of Rabbit Ears fame tried to contact him about a year ago to offer any help, but got no response. So, he created his own signal finder tool. I just wish word about this got around faster. It would save time and effort for people like 6volt. (screed over)
Andy Lee created TVFool. His site has been very helpful when dealing with reception problems, but it appears to be on autopilot now. The frequent changes as a result of Repack make it less accurate than ever.

Here is an interesting post by Andy from 2009 where he explains the origin of Noise Margin for his site:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...l#post15700679

Andy's diagrams from that post don't always show. They show in my IE browser, but not in Firefox. Mozilla considers it a security risk; that post was made with the old forum software. If you click on either LL at the end of the post, you will see the attachment diagrams. I have added them as attachments 1 and 2; 3 and 4 are my revisions of the original diagrams.

The RabbitEars Search Map by Trip in VA came just in time:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php
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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 09-17-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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post #4887 of 4911 Old 09-16-2019, 07:34 PM
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Some interesting charts. Too bad about Fool and the FCC "shenanigans" regarding reassignments.

Had a thought about Multi-Path.

I've read the latest ATSC generation improvements (this info maybe 5 years old) was in multipath: processing power allowed a bigger "time window" buffer to collect "packets" that would be reassembled.

QUESTION: Has anyone made a ATSC tuner that uses multiple antennas? Two antennas, one pointed at the signal and the other pointed at the reflection should collect more accurate packets which would assemble into a better signal. In fact, the tuner could give signal strengths for both antennas since the primary setting of a single conventional antenna includes some multipath contribution. So if a 2nd antenna was tasked with primary reflection, the 1st antenna could be aimed without MP contribution.
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post #4888 of 4911 Old 09-17-2019, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
Problem is that my location based on address is way off - a few hundred feet up my street which is up hill and away from obscuring hills. I moved, by eye, the curson to where my house is approximately and wow, things turned to crap - two of my FAIR channels turned to POOR. I need to get google maps up and get some accurate positions for Rabbit. My approximate location: (note, I am in the shadow of hills for all channels I receive https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12361
Yup, that's the way the map works. If you enter your address and click on Search, a closeup map will show. If you then click on Move Pushpin to Center of Map View, the pushpin is halfway up the block. If you move the pushpin by drag and drop to your house and then press Go, a report will come up which should be accurate.

What I prefer to do is find the coordinates of your house, which I did in Google maps because I knew your address. I then entered the coordinates, separated by a comma, in the left box and pressed Go for a report. This avoids having to move the marker. You can also enter the Lat in the left box and the Long in the right box without the comma. This is your report using the coordinates:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12448

Quote:
NOTE: I found some maps with what appears to be a cursor at my locations - only problem it isn't - I wonder if the cursor is at the truncated long & lat?
When you are entering your location in the search map, you have the option of Yes or No for Shift Shown Location for Privacy. Your report will be the same for either option, but if you click on Yes, your coordinates will be shortened in the report and the red marker on the map will not be at your location. If you click on NO, the full coordinates will show in the report and the red marker on the map will be at your location.



When you click on Map for WQED in your report, this is what you will see:



When I select YES, the red marker for your (wrong) location is in a light green area. When I click on NO, the red marker is at your exact location, which is a weaker orange. As I previously said, the report is the same for YES or NO.

Your ID 12361 report does not agree with the other reports. I don't know if it is because you have selected 15' or the location is wrong, or a combination of both.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12361

I reran it with coordinates at 15':
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=12465

It gives more POOR at 15'.

Please remember, the report is only a computer simulation. It doesn't know about trees or other buildings in the signal path. It assumes your antenna is in the clear. Your tuner decides how good the signal is.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 09-17-2019 at 08:24 AM.
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post #4889 of 4911 Old 09-17-2019, 10:58 AM
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Just read a bit about ATSC 3.0 which should be starting around... now, which makes my situation irrelevant BECAUSE if I can get Football in 4k, I'll be getting a STB/DVR.

4k sports is going to be great!

I found a whole bunch of Android TV Signal apps which give compass arrows for precise aiming - might try to get 13 since I have gotten it in the past (was it real 4 >5 years ago I wonder...)
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post #4890 of 4911 Old 09-17-2019, 11:38 AM
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Sometimes the compass aps work well, sometimes not. I prefer a pocket compass or the green signal lines on the TVFool Interactive Map for aiming. The final adjustment is for the best signal quality (highest SNR and zero errors), not always for highest signal strength.



Also, when you have terrain interference, you will have multipath problems because the signal is scattered by the terrain obstructions. This means you must hunt for the best antenna location; all locations will not be equally good.



WQED was real 13 before Repack by the FCC.
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...=&lss=&status=

They got money for moving from VHF-High to VHF-Low, but the noise level is much higher on VHF-Low. This makes it more difficult to receive at some locations. The signal must be at least 15 dB above the noise to be received.

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Lord Kelvin, 1883
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttpoorman.html

Last edited by rabbit73; 09-17-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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