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post #4891 of 4974 Old 09-17-2019, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
Had a thought about Multi-Path.

I've read the latest ATSC generation improvements (this info maybe 5 years old) was in multipath: processing power allowed a bigger "time window" buffer to collect "packets" that would be reassembled.
That is correct. The latest generation handles multipath much better.
Quote:
QUESTION: Has anyone made a ATSC tuner that uses multiple antennas? Two antennas, one pointed at the signal and the other pointed at the reflection should collect more accurate packets which would assemble into a better signal. In fact, the tuner could give signal strengths for both antennas since the primary setting of a single conventional antenna includes some multipath contribution. So if a 2nd antenna was tasked with primary reflection, the 1st antenna could be aimed without MP contribution.
Interesting question.

Not that I know of. The closest they ever came to that were the "Smart" antennas for the converter boxes, but it never got much support.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/09-04...t-antenna.html

The closest thing now is the Channel Master SMARTenna+
https://www.channelmaster.com/Smarte.../cm-3001hd.htm

But, neither of the above use two separate antennas. The one that first comes to mind that uses two is a dual diversity antenna system that switches to the best one as conditions change. It's used for long distance shortwave reception because of constant changes in atmospheric conditions.

some mention of it here for auto FM
https://www.installer.com/tech/index.php?page=diversity

for wireless mic
http://avlex.com/support/using-wirel...-performances/

It's also used for WiFi and mobile phones.

But, no manufacturer is going to design and sell it for TV reception unless they are certain of making money on it.

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Last edited by rabbit73; 09-18-2019 at 08:46 AM.
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post #4892 of 4974 Old 09-18-2019, 07:12 PM
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Wow Rabbit73, your school is in session! Thank you so much.

I was afraid of that (ch 13 real moving). But I do have a very long TV antenna under my porch that would probably just fine for 13.

And since I have the dual input 7777, I could use the VHF input for the very long antenna.
I wonder what the roll-off is in the 7777 between the 2 jacks. I'm guessing the two inputs are intended for a single antenna with separate VHF and UHF outputs - in which case they are probably phased correctly. HOWEVER with 2 different antennas, if they are phased incorrectly, when the 7777 combines the signals, there could be cancellation probably in the Hi-VHF/Lo-UHF channels were the "crossover" occurs.
What are your thoughts about ATSC 3.0?
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post #4893 of 4974 Old 09-18-2019, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
Wow Rabbit73, your school is in session! Thank you so much.
You are welcome. Glad you have found something useful.

Quote:
I was afraid of that (ch 13 real moving). But I do have a very long TV antenna under my porch that would probably just fine for 13.
Yes, WQED really did move to real VHF-Low channel 4.

Quote:
And since I have the dual input 7777, I could use the VHF input for the very long antenna.
Yes, you could, but don't forget about VHF-High. If you have the very long antenna connected to the VHF input, the switch must be in the separate position. This will mean that any VHF-High channels picked up by the UHF antenna will be blocked. However, if the very long antenna is designed to receive VHF-Low and VHF-High, you will be OK. If the very long antenna is designed to receive VHF-Low, VHF-High, and UHF, you could connect it to the UHF input and set the switch to combined.

If the very long antenna is only for VHF-Low, you would need three anrtennas: a VHF-Low antena and a VHF-High antenna combined with a HLSJ connected to the VHF input and a UHF antenna connected to the UHF input.
Quote:
I wonder what the roll-off is in the 7777 between the 2 jacks. I'm guessing the two inputs are intended for a single antenna with separate VHF and UHF outputs - in which case they are probably phased correctly.
The roll off is VHF input for VHF-Low and VHF-High, UHF excluded. The UHF input is for UHF only, VHF excluded, when the switch is set to separate. The design was intended for two separate antennas without consideration of phase, because each input excludes like signals from the other input.
Quote:
HOWEVER with 2 different antennas, if they are phased incorrectly, when the 7777 combines the signals, there could be cancellation probably in the Hi-VHF/Lo-UHF channels were the "crossover" occurs.
Nope; there is no phasing problem because like signals from the other input are excluded. It looks like you are thinking about your two antenna multipath theory.
Quote:
What are your thoughts about ATSC 3.0?
ATSC 3.0 should help with multipath. But, the changeover from ATSC 1.0 to 3.0 will be a mess because it wasn't mandated like the changeover from analog to digital. If the FCC doesn't require ATSC 3.0 tuners in TVs after a certain date, it will be a disaster. Having UHF Repack at the same time as the introduction of ATSC 3.0 has made it worse. The consumers are confused enough already. There is a whole thread about ATSC 3.0 if you are interested.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...tsc-3-0-a.html

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post #4894 of 4974 Old 09-18-2019, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
You are welcome. Glad you have found something useful.

Yes, WQED really did move to real VHF-Low channel 4.

Yes, you could, but don't forget about VHF-High. If you have the very long antenna connected to the VHF input, the switch must be in the separate position. This will mean that any VHF-High channels picked up by the UHF antenna will be blocked. However, if the very long antenna is designed to receive VHF-Low and VHF-High, you will be OK. If the very long antenna is designed to receive VHF-Low, VHF-High, and UHF, you could connect it to the UHF input and set the switch to combined.

If the very long antenna is only for VHF-Low, you would need three anrtennas: a VHF-Low antena and a VHF-High antenna combined with a HLSJ connected to the VHF input and a UHF antenna connected to the UHF input.
My 7777 has the 2 inputs and NO switch, so I'm thinking CM will assume both inputs will come from the same antenna. Hence my concern about 2 antennas

I know the big antenna has a UHF section but it's not going to match the 4228 gain - my guess is the long ant will not have enough gain. Plus, HAHA, that long antenna on my front porch will make my porch look like some gun turret on a battlestar(!)

Last edited by 6volt; 09-18-2019 at 09:41 PM.
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post #4895 of 4974 Old 09-19-2019, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
My 7777 has the 2 inputs and NO switch, so I'm thinking CM will assume both inputs will come from the same antenna. Hence my concern about 2 antennas
Really?

No switch?

Back in post # 4880 I showed you this photo:



You said your 7777 looked like that.

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Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
MY BAD! Yes, I have the original and there are 2 inputs: VHF+UHF and VHF - as shown in your 2nd pic.
If it looks like that, then it DOES have a switch, but it is INSIDE the housing. You have to remove 4 screws to get to the circuit board to change the setting of the combined/separate switch.







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post #4896 of 4974 Old 09-19-2019, 09:14 AM
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Wow, schooled again! I had NO IDEA those switches were in there! I had seen pics where they were externally adjustable and just assumed... .... oh wait... SNAP They state the switches are Inside AND the factory settings! Duh! (Homer)

But again, if I use both inputs and 2 different antennas, at some point the 7777 has to blend the results with a crossover similar to a stereo speaker - a LP and HP filter. But these filters have roll off and if the phases are opposite in the rolloff region, the summation will be diminished - if IN phase, the additive roll off will produce a stronger signal.

I think the long antenna is so big, if balanced on my IV stand, my porch won't be big enough to swing it into position...
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post #4897 of 4974 Old 09-19-2019, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
But again, if I use both inputs and 2 different antennas, at some point the 7777 has to blend the results with a crossover similar to a stereo speaker - a LP and HP filter. But these filters have roll off and if the phases are opposite in the rolloff region, the summation will be diminished - if IN phase, the additive roll off will produce a stronger signal.
Yes, a UVSJ is similar to a speaker crossover, with an LP and HP filter.









Quote:
I think the long antenna is so big, if balanced on my IV stand, my porch won't be big enough to swing it into position...
What you need to do is find out what kind of antenna you need to receive WQED now on real VHF-Low channel 4. Does your 4228 antenna receive it now? Which 4228 do you have, the original with the tubular all-channel balun, or the newer 4228HD with the printed circuit board balun in a plastic housing?

If you can't receive it now with the 4228, connect a channel 4 folded dipole to the UHF or Combined Input with the switch still set to combined just for a test. If you don't want to make a channel 4 antenna, buy a Winegard HD-7000R for a test. It's smaller than your big antenna, but probably doesn't have as much gain.
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7000r
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post #4898 of 4974 Old 09-20-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Yes, a UVSJ is similar to a speaker crossover, with an LP and HP filter.









What you need to do is find out what kind of antenna you need to receive WQED now on real VHF-Low channel 4. Does your 4228 antenna receive it now? Which 4228 do you have, the original with the tubular all-channel balun, or the newer 4228HD with the printed circuit board balun in a plastic housing?

If you can't receive it now with the 4228, connect a channel 4 folded dipole to the UHF or Combined Input with the switch still set to combined. If you don't want to make a channel 4 antenna, buy a Winegard HD-7000R for a test. It's smaller than your big antenna, but probably doesn't have as much gain.
https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd7000r
I extended the rear elements on my Rca-751 antenna to get Wqed 13 (rf-4). It works very good at my location. I am about 58 miles from Wqed tower.
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post #4899 of 4974 Old 09-20-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cambria county View Post
I extended the rear elements on my Rca-751 antenna to get Wqed 13 (rf-4). It works very good at my location. I am about 58 miles from Wqed tower.
Good idea. Thank you for the reception report.




Which elements did you extend (the rear two?), and how long did you make them? Did you use wire or tubing?

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post #4900 of 4974 Old 09-20-2019, 12:33 PM
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Using an SDR Dongle and Spectrum Analyzer Software to Find a Missing Channel

One of the problems with reception of VHF-Low channels is the high noise level from electrical interference. It's even higher than on VHF-High, as I showed previously with my noise level measurements. The signal must be at least 15 dB above the noise to be received.



I don't have any VHF-Low channels in my area, but my noise level on VHF-High causes interference to my weak marginal channel 9 signal. Sometimes I can receive it and sometimes not, depending upon the signal strength of 9 and the noise level at that time.

When you do a channel scan, sometimes you don't pick up a channel. If the tuner doesn't pick up the channel, you don't know if it's because it's too weak or it isn't there. In the past, it was necessary to use a signal level meter or a spectrum analyzer to find out why. A spectrum analyzer is expensive, but now inexpensive SDR dongles are available to use as a spectrum analyzer with the proper software. I bought an RTL-SDR.COM dongle to look at my VHF-High channels:
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/buy-rtl-sdr-dvb-t-dongles/



The software doesn't come with it; it is necessary to assemble the software in a folder to get it to work. I have been downloading and installing software for almost 20 years, but this was a challenge for me. I finally got it working and this is what my VHF-High looks like:



As you can see, channel 9 doesn't quite have 15 dB above the noise for reception.

I have been helping another poster who was having trouble with VHF-High reception. We suspected that his noise level was high from electrical interference, but we didn't know until he did a scan with his SDR dongle and spectrum analyzer software:



You can see very strong electrical noise interference, but he hasn't found the source of the interference yet.

So, it should be possible to use the SDR dongle and spectrum analyzer software to see how high WQED on real channel 4 is above the noise level at your location.

Good tutorial on SDR dongles by Pete Higgins:
Inexpensive Software Defined Radio Spectrum Analyzer < $10.00
https://www.highdefforum.com/local-h...r-10-00-a.html

Spectrum auction nets nearly $35M for two Pennsylvania stations
by Dru Sefton, Senior Editor
February 10, 2017
https://current.org/2017/02/spectrum...ania-stations/

Quote:
WITF-TV in Harrisburg, Pa., will use $25 million in spectrum auction proceeds to bankroll three new initiatives, including a possible statewide news organization. And the $9.9 million going to Pittsburgh’s WQED for shifting to another frequency could possibly retire the station’s longstanding debt.

At WQED, the cash comes from an agreement to move to a lower VHF frequency. The move “will be seamless to viewers,” it said in its announcement Thursday.
It doesn't appear to be seamless for OTA viewers.
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post #4901 of 4974 Old 09-20-2019, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Good idea. Thank you for the reception report.




Which elements did you extend (the rear two?), and how long did you make them? Did you use wire or tubing?
I made the rear elements about 48" each side. I used elements from old antenna's. Just used flat screwdriver and pliers to open seam where the slit is. Slid onto existing element and ran foil tape around it. Before I did this, Wqed was not decoding on the Zenith box. It was very close to opening. That is when I got the idea to extend back elements for rf-4 aka Wqed. I was suprised how strong it was after I did this. On another note, I ordered stellar labs version of the Rca-751 and the fringe yagi 30-2476. Wtov 9-Steubenville not quite strong enough to decode with Rca-751 here. (90 mile signal). I think the 30-2476 will get the job done. Hopefully, I can shoot for Wtrf-7 Wheeling, also. The cw-rf 11 is real easy to get here for some reason. Fox 8 comes in very strong with the rca-751.
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post #4902 of 4974 Old 09-20-2019, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cambria county View Post
I made the rear elements about 48" each side. I used elements from old antenna's. Just used flat screwdriver and pliers to open seam where the slit is. Slid onto existing element and ran foil tape around it. Before I did this, Wqed was not decoding on the Zenith box. It was very close to opening. That is when I got the idea to extend back elements for rf-4 aka Wqed. I was suprised how strong it was after I did this.
Very interesting; thank you.

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post #4903 of 4974 Old 09-21-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cambria county View Post
I made the rear elements about 48" each side. Before I did this, WQED was not decoding on the Zenith box. It was very close to opening. That is when I got the idea to extend the back elements for rf-4 aka WQED. I was surprised how strong it was after I did this.
Is this correct?

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post #4904 of 4974 Old 09-21-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Is this correct?

Yes, that is what I did here. I was targeting rf-4...Wqed. This would apply to channels 2-6 low vhf. Do the math for desired channel and extend back elements accordingly. This modification did not alter the uhf portion at all. Did not change my high vhf either.
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post #4905 of 4974 Old 09-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cambria county View Post
Yes, that is what I did here. I was targeting rf-4...Wqed. This would apply to channels 2-6 low vhf. Do the math for desired channel and extend back elements accordingly.
Good, I will leave the diagram as is for the benefit of other users in your area who want WQED.

Quote:
This modification did not alter the uhf portion at all. Did not change my high vhf either.
Thank you, I was wondering about that also.

Your RCA ANT751 is beginning to look like the Winegard HD7000R with the LOW BAND VHF KIT added:



Manual:
https://d38mfwkkxtsm2m.cloudfront.ne...ts/1451001.pdf
Specs:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf
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post #4906 of 4974 Old 10-01-2019, 09:03 AM
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Good Tropo Conditions This Morning

Did anyone else receive WSEE 35 and WICU 12 from Erie,Pa this morning.I was searching for WFMJ and WKBN and found these 2 channels with around a 60% signal from a ZENITH tuner box.
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post #4907 of 4974 Old 10-01-2019, 09:37 AM
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Nice DX catch!

We were in an area of tropospheric propagation last night: http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html. Temperature changes and resulting fog are tell-tale signs.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by otay2go View Post
Did anyone else receive WSEE 35 and WICU 12 from Erie,Pa this morning.I was searching for WFMJ and WKBN and found these 2 channels with around a 60% signal from a ZENITH tuner box.
Your post reminded me that back in the late '70s I lived between Freeport and Kittanning and I used to watch Erie's channel 12 every morning. NBC had a morning show that came on after the Today show that neither WIIC-11 (Now WPXI) from Pittsburgh nor WJAC-6 from Johnstown aired but that I could pick up by swinging our 160-mile-range antenna around to point north. The picture was fuzzy but watchable and I enjoyed the show, which starred a new, relatively unknown comedian named David Letterman. Back in the analog days, I could pick up something on every VHF channel 2-13. My sister still lives there and today she can't even get all of the Pittsburgh stations. Well, that's progress for you.
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post #4909 of 4974 Old 10-02-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Soon2Bdark View Post
Your post reminded me that back in the late '70s I lived between Freeport and Kittanning and I used to watch Erie's channel 12 every morning. NBC had a morning show that came on after the Today show that neither WIIC-11 (Now WPXI) from Pittsburgh nor WJAC-6 from Johnstown aired but that I could pick up by swinging our 160-mile-range antenna around to point north. The picture was fuzzy but watchable and I enjoyed the show, which starred a new, relatively unknown comedian named David Letterman. Back in the analog days, I could pick up something on every VHF channel 2-13. My sister still lives there and today she can't even get all of the Pittsburgh stations. Well, that's progress for you.
You must be talking about the David Letterman Show, which debuted on NBC's daytime schedule on June 23, 1980. NBC cancelled three game shows, including the long-running Hollywood Squares, to put it on the air. Unfortunately, you were about the only one watching, as ratings were poor throughout the run, and the show was cancelled that October. I hear he did better with his late night gig.

Yes, analog (NTSC) television had many advantages reception-wise over ATSC 1.0. That's why I'm hoping that broadcasters roll out ATSC 3.0 sooner rather than later.
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post #4910 of 4974 Old 10-06-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Good, I will leave the diagram as is for the benefit of other users in your area who want WQED.

Thank you, I was wondering about that also.

Your RCA ANT751 is beginning to look like the Winegard HD7000R with the LOW BAND VHF KIT added:



Manual:
https://d38mfwkkxtsm2m.cloudfront.ne...ts/1451001.pdf
Specs:
http://manuals.solidsignal.com/HD7000R.pdf
Hi, looking for any signal reports of Wkbs-Altoona new vhf-6 frequency for those that have capabilities. Thanks.
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post #4911 of 4974 Old 10-09-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tort2017 View Post
WPTG 69.1 has been granted a request to suspend operations, and go silent.

WPTG-CD has returned to the air. They have added two new networks: Newsnet on 69.4 and Justice Network on 69.5.
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post #4912 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 12:54 AM
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I am looking to cut the Comcast cord and I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I know nothing about this.


Reading this forum I am lost with all the jargon.


First, where are the installers for a roof antenna in this area? Searches bring up nothing. Placed a couple calls and was told "we don't do that anymore." Anyone have a lead on an installer that will come to Latrobe, PA?


I am going to give Antennas Direct a call this week to get a grip on the equipment I will need and hopefully they may know some installers.

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post #4913 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlad335 View Post
I am looking to cut the Comcast cord and I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I know nothing about this.


Reading this forum I am lost with all the jargon.


First, where are the installers for a roof antenna in this area? Searches bring up nothing. Placed a couple calls and was told "we don't do that anymore." Anyone have a lead on an installer that will come to Latrobe, PA?


I am going to give Antennas Direct a call this week to get a grip on the equipment I will need and hopefully they may know some installers.
pm me...I might be able to help you.
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post #4914 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 08:18 AM
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Don Compton Inc
4649 State Route 30, Greensburg, PA 15601

(724) 537-2559
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post #4915 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6volt View Post
Don Compton Inc
4649 State Route 30, Greensburg, PA 15601

(724) 537-2559

I did call them awhile back and they told me they, "Don't climb roofs anymore."



I called Best Buy... Answer was NO. I called the Stereo Shop in Greensburg, I was told, "We don't install antennas anymore."


Just for the helluvit, I called Don Compton again just now. I think it was the owner this time. They wont install any other equipment but he says he will install Saturday a "small antenna" outside that will get 30 channels.



I think I will try this. If they put a **** antenna up and the price is decent I could easily replace it they do the heavy lifting and all the infrastructure is in place. Thanks for the reply.
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post #4916 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 03:00 PM
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Another question for the knowledgeable people here.


Should I get a STB or use my TCL R625 Roku TV directly? If so, which STB should I get.
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post #4917 of 4974 Old 10-22-2019, 03:25 PM
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What did you have in mind as far as antenna size and where will it be mounted? Rotor? Do you need all wiring done including in the house? If you are going to have a rotor and an amplifier at the antenna, you may not want it high as possible, but some compromise if you have to maintenance or repair/replace antenna, rotor, or amp.

I know a general contractor that has all the various constructions skills AND does steep slate roofing AND also takes down trees where he is working off ropes and slings.

Frankly, a roofer might do the best job because some installers just nail brackets through your shingles improperly and cause leaks. I wouldn't let anyone do anything on my roof unless I personally knew them and the quality of work they did.
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post #4918 of 4974 Old 10-25-2019, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wbf View Post
WPTG-CD has returned to the air. They have added two new networks: Newsnet on 69.4 and Justice Network on 69.5.
When did WPTG return to the air? Is it RF30? I was able to receive Youngstown WKBN/WYTV RF31 at least intermittently up until late September/early October, and then some unknown event occurred and now I can no longer receive them at all, despite trying a new antenna and preamp, new cable, and 3 different receivers.
Thanks.
Mike
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post #4919 of 4974 Old 10-25-2019, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by nw3a View Post
When did WPTG return to the air? Is it RF30? I was able to receive Youngstown WKBN/WYTV RF31 at least intermittently up until late September/early October, and then some unknown event occurred and now I can no longer receive them at all, despite trying a new antenna and preamp, new cable, and 3 different receivers.
Thanks.
Mike

WPTG returned to the air around the 7th of October, RF is 30.
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post #4920 of 4974 Old 10-25-2019, 08:58 PM
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WPTG returned to the air around the 7th of October, RF is 30.
Thank you for the information. That may very well be the explanation.
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