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post #10141 of 11001 Old 03-21-2018, 06:40 PM
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When you connect two Hi-VHF Antennas to a 2-Way RF Combiner, each experiences an unwanted 3-4 dB Insertion Loss....and Multipath from One Antenna is injected into the Other Antenna, rather than being suppressed by the Front/Back Ratio. You didn't provide a link to your TVFool Results....but it is possible that Strong signals from One location will interfere with an Adjacent Channel on the Other. Ch7-11 are also allocated to BOTH S.D. and L.A. stations....so it may be difficult to receive whichever has the weaker signal. So in the absence of a TVFool Report, it is NOT usually Recommended....you should probably use TWO Coax Downleads and an RF Selector Switch.

You should post a link to your TVFool Results so we can do some actual calculation estimates....I took a quick look at your area using TVFool Map Function....it doesn't look very good for SD Ch8/10....and likely need to be on higher ground. Also need to know how High you plan to mount the Antennas, how many Drops and Coax Length(s) so I can calculate System Noise Figure with and w/o a Preamp.

The old Radio Shack 15-1217 IR Controlled A/B Coaxial Switch is the ONLY RF Switch I know with R/C, which is apparently still available, although "New" products are fairly rare. Insertion Loss Specs says "1.5 dB Max" with a healthy 80 dB Input Port-to-Port Isolation (less on UHF Freqs):
https://www.amazon.com/Radio-Shack-R.../dp/B000H50L9S
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eKIcq1SNe6Q13Z

I looked for Insertion Loss Spec for MANUAL A/B Coaxial Switches...about the ONLY Switchs I found that claimed actual Specs were Holland AB-4 and AB-90, with a Max Insertion Loss under 1.0 dB:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...g-xOiYre1-DBAX
As well as Max of 1.1 dB for the old "High-Isolation" CM-3210 Coaxial Switch (Co-branded Eagle-3210):
https://www.summitsource.com/Channel...10-P11536.aspx
https://www.summitsource.com/Eagle-3...10-P13752.aspx

I would guess that all of the Coaxial Switch mfrs have an Insertion Loss so low, they don't feel it's worth mentioning....so most anything you find at your local Home Depot should be "good enough".....
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Last edited by holl_ands; 03-22-2018 at 01:23 AM.
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post #10142 of 11001 Old 03-21-2018, 06:55 PM
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Yeah... Everyone tells me it can't be done. For the past 11 years.

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post #10143 of 11001 Old 03-22-2018, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Yeah... Everyone tells me it can't be done. For the past 11 years.

Most of the advice on here about combining two antennas like that is that it doesn't work most of the time. Sometimes people luck out. Looks like you're one. In this business there's almost always exceptions to any general rule. It doesn't make it good advice though. I try to give advice that I think has a high probability of working, especially when I'm spending someone else's money.
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post #10144 of 11001 Old 03-22-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
You should post a link to your TVFool Results so we can do some actual calculation estimates....I took a quick look at your area using TVFool Map Function....it doesn't look very good for SD Ch8/10....and likely need to be on higher ground. Also need to know how High you plan to mount the Antennas, how many Drops and Coax Length(s) so I can calculate System Noise Figure with and w/o a Preamp.
Here are the TV Fool results:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90381c7e758a81

But TV Fool hasn't been updated in years it seems? It shows old channels (such as 24 & 47, etc).

Here's my band-scan as well. Only the 5 element Hi-VHF Yagi is pointed to SD:

https://m.rabbitears.info/index.php?...tzone=ET&unit=

I can provide SDR pics too if you want to see them.

Thanks!
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post #10145 of 11001 Old 03-22-2018, 02:41 PM
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Note that Ch8 from LA and SD (CBS) as well as Ch10 from LA and SD (NBC) are all within 2-3 dB of each other....this illustrates the Co-Channel Interference Problem, that I mentioned above can occur if using an RF Combiner to combine two Hi-VHF Antennas pointed in different directions. So for sure, you will need an A/B Coaxial Switch.

Antennacraft Spec for discontinued Y10-7-13 claimed 9.4 dBd = 11.6 dBi for Hi-VHF Band (only one number....probably MAX).
When I modeled Y10-7-13 (using my measurements), Gain was about 10-11 dBi.
StellarLabs Spec for 30-2426 claims 12 dBi [MAX and can't be dBd] for Hi-VHF Band.
Although I don't have measurements for 30-2426, I DID for the smaller 30-2425, finding Gain was about 1 dB lower than claimed.

Antennahacks did an OTA Comparison Test of Y10-7-13 to the StellarLabs 30-2426, finding that Gain was about the SAME, with about 1-2 dB LESS on Ch13:
http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparis...ar_30-2476.htm

So I'm going to presume that Gain of StellaLabs 30-2426 is between 10 and 11 dBi....and a bit lower on Ch13.

So for above Antenna Gain and a System Noise Figure of about 3-4 dB (With Typical Preamp+Coax on "San Diego" Antenna), the lowest TVFool calculated Pwr(dbm) would be -106+15-3+10 = -96 dBm....leaving only 4-7 dB Fade Margin...which is very minimal protection against Multipath Fading, Seasonal Variations and "Other Factors" such as Trees, et. al.

Determining your approx. location from your TVFool Report, I used TVFool's MAP Function to show the signal level in your neighborhood. Turns out that Ch8/10 from San Diego are about the SAME as Ch8/10 from LA....and you appear to be on the TOP of a Mesa [which helps] or just slightly off of it (depends on exactly WHERE you are located):

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post #10146 of 11001 Old 03-22-2018, 10:02 PM
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"Luck out"...LMAO...better stated 'I know what I'm doing'...

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post #10147 of 11001 Old 03-22-2018, 11:00 PM
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Question Did you get this red warning banner message during Station 19's pilot episode too?

Did anyone get this red warning banner message during Station 19's pilot episode on KABC's 7.1? Mine got interrupted by this red banner warning with its audio message: http://screenshot.cz/MF/MF7VU/s19redbanner.png ... At least closed captionings still showed the dialogs. This was in Los Angeles' KABC7 on Spectrum cable. It was recorded since I could rewind, pause, and fast forward it. I wonder if OTAers had that too.

Thank you in advance.
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post #10148 of 11001 Old 03-23-2018, 06:55 AM
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Vhf

Does VHF have fewer problems with multi-path?
If so, maybe the idea of two VHF antennas pointed in different directions might be a better idea than with UHF?

Last edited by nathill; 03-23-2018 at 07:02 AM.
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post #10149 of 11001 Old 03-23-2018, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phildaant View Post
Did anyone get this red warning banner message during Station 19's pilot episode on KABC's 7.1? Mine got interrupted by this red banner warning with its audio message: http://screenshot.cz/MF/MF7VU/s19redbanner.png ... At least closed captionings still showed the dialogs. This was in Los Angeles' KABC7 on Spectrum cable. It was recorded since I could rewind, pause, and fast forward it. I wonder if OTAers had that too.

Thank you in advance.
Looks like a weather warning for Ventura...

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post #10150 of 11001 Old 03-24-2018, 01:52 PM
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Has anything happened with KABC and KCAL recently? Over a month ago I put an antenna in my attic and I was able to pull in all the majors just fine. Now I've completely lost 7 and 9 on my TV and HDHomeRun. 2, 4, 5, 11, 13 are all fine

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post #10151 of 11001 Old 03-24-2018, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonvr View Post
Has anything happened with KABC and KCAL recently? Over a month ago I put an antenna in my attic and I was able to pull in all the majors just fine. Now I've completely lost 7 and 9 on my TV and HDHomeRun. 2, 4, 5, 11, 13 are all fine
I always have problems with both KABC and KCAL, especially in the early evenings.

Both are H-VHF and at close frequencies. 174Mhz~186Mhz
And both are only transmitting at 25~28Kw (pretty low power)
11 and 13 are still H-VHF on 198~216Mhz KTTV11 at 115kW and KCOP13 at 120kW.

Compare that to KNBCLA on UHF 602Mhz~608 Mhz at 665kW
and KCBSLA 644Mhz~650Mhz at 540kW!

Di$ney needs to inve$t in more power for their local stations! LOL

You'd be better off mounting your antenna to your roof.

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post #10152 of 11001 Old 03-25-2018, 07:13 AM
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Well, 8 &10 to San Diego turned out to be hopeless. The 30-2426 is a great Hi-VHF antenna, which is now pointed to LA. I get 8 from LA reliably, so the received power at my QTH seems better for LA and worse for SD than TV Fool predicted. No 10 from LA.

If 8 & 10 in San Diego are granted the power increases they are asking for, I will try again then.

Thanks again.

Mike
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post #10153 of 11001 Old 03-25-2018, 07:28 AM
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The lower the rf channel, the less power that is needed to cover a similar plot map. Add in the height of the transmitter tower, and the power levels are not that bad for your locals.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #10154 of 11001 Old 03-25-2018, 08:20 AM
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The lower the rf channel, the less power that is needed to cover a similar plot map. Add in the height of the transmitter tower, and the power levels are not that bad for your locals.
Is the fact that KABC and KCAL broadcast at 75% less power than KTTV and KCOP the reason so many people in the LA surrounding areas have drop outs with KABC and KCAL?

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,aimed at Mt. Wilson (Los Angeles) from Etiwanda area.
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Located in foothills behind Mt. Baldy, and experiencing signal loss and pixelation depending on time of day.
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post #10155 of 11001 Old 03-25-2018, 10:52 AM
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Since this has become a local reception thread, I'm going to combine it with the LA thread.

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post #10156 of 11001 Old 03-25-2018, 11:53 AM
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Is the fact that KABC and KCAL broadcast at 75% less power than KTTV and KCOP the reason so many people in the LA surrounding areas have drop outs with KABC and KCAL?
Antennas are a leading factor in VHF reception pixelation and dropouts. You may need a different antenna to secure long term reception of rf VHF channels like KABC and KCAL.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #10157 of 11001 Old 03-26-2018, 09:48 PM
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Well I figured out at least part of my problem - the F connector on my main feed from the antenna to the distribution partially fell apart. I don't know if it was natural (cheap compression from Amazon) or I messed it up when I was up there last weekend installing security cameras. I noticed that even my FM reception was messed up, so I knew something else must be up. Luckily I put the distribution amp directly in front of the attic access. When I pulled the power I notice no degradation which meant something wasn't connected properly. Started jiggling things and the input just fell apart.

Clipped it and recrimped. Seems better now, though not perfect. But I do have 7 and 9 back.
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post #10158 of 11001 Old 03-27-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonvr View Post
Well I figured out at least part of my problem - the F connector on my main feed from the antenna to the distribution partially fell apart. I don't know if it was natural (cheap compression from Amazon) or I messed it up when I was up there last weekend installing security cameras. I noticed that even my FM reception was messed up, so I knew something else must be up. Luckily I put the distribution amp directly in front of the attic access. When I pulled the power I notice no degradation which meant something wasn't connected properly. Started jiggling things and the input just fell apart.

Clipped it and recrimped. Seems better now, though not perfect. But I do have 7 and 9 back.
Do you or your neighbors have solar panels?

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,aimed at Mt. Wilson (Los Angeles) from Etiwanda area.
CM3410 Dist. amp in attic for a 5 room hookup.
Located in foothills behind Mt. Baldy, and experiencing signal loss and pixelation depending on time of day.
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post #10159 of 11001 Old 03-27-2018, 07:43 AM
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I have been seeing a dramatic improvement in my reception of KCET, ch. 28, over the past two or three days. This station has always been rather weak here because of poor coverage to the west from its particular location on Mt. Wilson. Previously it didn't even come in at all, most of the time on one UHF antenna which I am using with my main TV. Now it comes in almost perfectly on that antenna, with only occasional glitches. Ch. 28 has always been a problem station here, but now, with an antenna change, reception should be perfect all the time.
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post #10160 of 11001 Old 03-27-2018, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerrymc777 View Post
Do you or your neighbors have solar panels?
I do, but on the opposite side of the house from where the antenna is/is pointing. Some of my neighbors also do - why?

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post #10161 of 11001 Old 03-27-2018, 08:50 PM
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I do, but on the opposite side of the house from where the antenna is/is pointing. Some of my neighbors also do - why?
Some engineer from OC on TVFool.com suggested to me that solar panels's inverters create RF interference after the sun sets.
My KABC and KCAL breakup right after the sun sets.
My antennas point directly towards my neighbor's solar panels (path to Mt. Wilson).
It's a neighbor behind my next door neighbor.

My signals are all pretty weak here, so I have to use a pre-amp at the antenna, and a dist. amp in the attic to push the signal to 5 rooms. It only happens certain times of the year too, which makes it more frustrating.

I've been searching for a VHF-H RF filter pass-band thingy but have yet to find one...
I need something to filter out everything below 174Mhz.

Large HD8200XL antenna with HDB91X and RCA preamp and a RCA VH226F rotor motor
,aimed at Mt. Wilson (Los Angeles) from Etiwanda area.
CM3410 Dist. amp in attic for a 5 room hookup.
Located in foothills behind Mt. Baldy, and experiencing signal loss and pixelation depending on time of day.
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post #10162 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerrymc777 View Post
Some engineer from OC on TVFool.com suggested to me that solar panels's inverters create RF interference after the sun sets.
....
Huh???

With all due respect to that engineer, if anything if that is really the source of the RF interference then the reverse should be happening since the inverters of net-metering solar customers aren't being used after sundown when the solar panels obviously stop generating any DC electricity and customers are pulling AC power from the grid like everyone else.



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post #10163 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathill View Post
Does VHF have fewer problems with multi-path?
If so, maybe the idea of two VHF antennas pointed in different directions might be a better idea than with UHF?
It's been my experience UHF usually has more problems with multi-path then VHF.

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post #10164 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 05:30 AM
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It's been my experience UHF usually has more problems with multi-path then VHF.
Thank you.
My limited experience in OTA reception tells me the same thing.
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post #10165 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by HoTatII View Post
Huh???

With all due respect to that engineer, if anything if that is really the source of the RF interference then the reverse should be happening since the inverters of net-metering solar customers aren't being used after sundown when the solar panels obviously stop generating any DC electricity and customers are pulling AC power from the grid like everyone else.



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I'm not really sure how solar panels work.
I thought the energy was stored to batteries, then converted to AC when needed...(after sunset)?

Large HD8200XL antenna with HDB91X and RCA preamp and a RCA VH226F rotor motor
,aimed at Mt. Wilson (Los Angeles) from Etiwanda area.
CM3410 Dist. amp in attic for a 5 room hookup.
Located in foothills behind Mt. Baldy, and experiencing signal loss and pixelation depending on time of day.
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post #10166 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 11:48 AM
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Some Solar Cell contain Active Electronics that are sometimes sources of EMI up high, where it is easy to leak into nearby TV Antennas....and other Solar Cells do NOT, with all of the EMI (if any) being radiated by the Active Electronics (incl. Inverter) in the Garage, where it can STILL be conducted up to the Solar Cells to be leaked into nearby TV Antennas. BTW: Just because it meets FCC Emission requirements does NOT mean it can't desensitize weak channel reception for nearly neighbors....and of course, SOME systems likely emit MORE than the single Test Sample used to obtain "Type" Approval.

FYI: My son's (and probably MOST) Solar Systems are used to lower their Monthly Electric Bill and do NOT have the Optional Battery Storage System. They break even after many, many years..at which time it would probably need to be replaced [unless prematurely damaged/destroyed by Severe Weather]. Only a portion of the Solar Cell Output is used during the Day and the rest is "sold" back to "The Grid". Under this scheme, you can STILL save $$$'s compared to Gasoline, by using JUST "The Grid" to recharge an Electric Car OVERNIGHT....using the "credits" you built up during the Day.

BTW: A "typical" home Solar System generates on the order of "thousands" of watts, MAX on a [Fixed Typo, was kWh per] "Good" Day of Sunshine...which varies a LOT from day-to-day and WHERE located....and only reaches PEAK for about 3-6 Hours per day. Fortunately, only a SMALL portion of a "typical" Solar System is needed to recharge MULTIPLE Electric Cars....although the ENTIRE Daily Solar Output for a SUNNY DAY may be needed for just ONE Insane or Ludicrous Mode Tesla owner....who should have no problem buying MUCH bigger Solar/Battery Systems for their MUCH bigger Roofs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...ttery_capacity
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35297.pdf

Adding a Battery Pack obviously increases the Up-Front Cost (and even more if on a payment plan)....but presumably can pay for itself after many, many years of service....esp. if you have an Electric Car (my son does NOT). Tesla's POWERWALL Lithium-Ion Battery Pack installed cost is about $4K (more or less)....and some homes might need TWO....esp. if Off-The-Grid for Dual Redundancy:
http://instituteforenergyresearch.or...erwall-battery
https://www.energysage.com/solar/sol...l-home-battery

Last edited by holl_ands; 03-30-2018 at 01:46 PM.
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post #10167 of 11001 Old 03-28-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
BTW: A "typical" home Solar System generates on the order of "thousands" of kWh per "Good" Day of Sunshine...which varies a LOT from day-to-day and WHERE located....and only reaches PEAK for about 3-6 Hours per day.
Your scale is off here. "Tens" of kWh is more correct, or "thousands" of Wh. I have a 6.27kW DC system and I will max out at about 40kWh in the peak of summer. I produced 37.2kWh yesterday which was 12.6kWh more than my house used for the day.

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post #10168 of 11001 Old 03-30-2018, 01:44 PM
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Thanks....fixed the "typo".
My source was Figure on pg 7 of fol Solar Brochure...which shows a VERY wide variation:
https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35297.pdf

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post #10169 of 11001 Old 04-11-2018, 08:01 AM
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Question

Sick and tired of getting taken by Spectrum. I've already started using YoutubeTV to get a lot of Cable/Satellite Channels and get the family prepared for the transition. I currently use two Silicon Dust HDHR Prime CableCARD tuners and WMC with multiple Ceton Echo Extenders and an xBox 360 for a whole home solution. First I'm going to drop down to Spectrum Select or even just plain ole basic.. Then I'm getting a Silicon Dust HDHR Quatro and an antenna. I'm out east and to not go into exact specifics but west of March AFB. Here's my plot from FoolTV (strangely KCBS is missing but it shows up on AntennaWeb).


The rear of my house has 33x240w solar photo-voltaic system with 33x215w MicroInverters on it (glad to see those posts so recently to mine as I didn't even think of the effects of that). This whole portion of the roof faces almost due south and I have a gable roof. At any rate, I'm trying to figure on a decent antenna to get and was thinking of mounting it to the barge rafter at the peak of the gable roof as there's a pretty clear shot to Mt. Wilson from there but now I'm wondering about interference from the solar panels..

I'm currently considering the following but am open to suggestions:

Channel Master Altratenna 60

or

LAVA 8008 Omnidirectional

TIA
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post #10170 of 11001 Old 04-11-2018, 08:18 AM
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Sick and tired of getting taken by Spectrum.
TIA
Who is your internet provlder?

Cheers, Tp

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Last edited by DrDon; 04-12-2018 at 06:18 AM.
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