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post #12841 of 12880 Old 03-04-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by steveken View Post
I wonder who TVEngineer Ark is and what station he works for.

I work for Arkansas PBS (AETN) in RF Engineering and have since 2002. Since I've partially given up my identity I'll also let everyone know that I will answer honest, applicable RF related questions and attempt to help by providing information when possible and reasonable. I will not however respond to snarky remarks concerning my employer, our programming or any other things which I deem irrelevant to the discussions here. I also don't wish to address any of the tired questions concerning our RF allocations (such as why all but one of our signals is VHF and not the original UHF allocations from many years ago). Those decisions were made by my superiors at the time for a variety of reasons, many of which were budgetary considerations. As far as I'm concerned our VHF allocations have worked well for us.



Hopefully we can continue to have civil, relevant discussions on this board. I've read the board for a long time (under a previous screen name several years ago) and I have found it to be a decent online community which is why I chose to disclose my employer. I reserve the right to cease participating in discussions should I feel the direction of things has taken a negative turn.
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post #12842 of 12880 Old 03-04-2020, 09:58 AM
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Woah woah woah. Not sure why you are grumpy or defensive. No one here is doing anything like what you are saying. Sure, at the beginning of the transition we thought it wasn’t a good idea on the frequency part, but it has been proven since then, at least to me, that it’s ok. I’ve not had issues in forever. No one is knocking anything about AETN anymore (except the weird name change, but whatever). Everything is fine and dandy to me. My wondering who you worked for was just more joking than anything at all.
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post #12843 of 12880 Old 03-04-2020, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by steveken View Post
Woah woah woah. Not sure why you are grumpy or defensive. No one here is doing anything like what you are saying. Sure, at the beginning of the transition we thought it wasn’t a good idea on the frequency part, but it has been proven since then, at least to me, that it’s ok. I’ve not had issues in forever. No one is knocking anything about AETN anymore (except the weird name change, but whatever). Everything is fine and dandy to me. My wondering who you worked for was just more joking than anything at all.

You are mistaking my being careful as being grumpy and defensive! I'm neither. Don't mistake what I was saying as being directed toward you as your posts over the years have always been on point. It was more a general comment made to establish a few ground rules before I hit 'submit reply' and gave away my anonymity. Being careful and cautious while also being willing to answer questions from a position on the inside is a necessity. So if anyone has questions I might be able to answer post away and I will do my best to answer with as much information as I am able to give.


That's the only point I wished to make.
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post #12844 of 12880 Old 03-13-2020, 07:30 PM
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Well. I sit 12 feet from a 65" Vizio. 75' would be more immersive, but with a caveat.
What will you be watching the most? Only a couple stations in town are 1080i. The rest are 480i or 720p.
Comcast cable is ALL 720p now. On a 65" set at 14 feet, the 720p looks decent, but you can still see the fuzz and blocking on fast moving content.
Were I to be using a 75", that would be even more apparent.

Now, if you mainly watch 4K content by streaming, or BluRay, then the 75" would probably be worth the extra money.

Make sure you have a phone (or can borrow one) to download the TCL calibration app on. I have read the TCL series 8 (assume that it the one you want) will require calibration using the app. If you are planning on a Series 6 or 4, that should not be an issue, as they dont have anywhere near as many local dimming zones. The TCL Series 8's only issue is with "star field" on shows like Star Wars or Star Trek. The local dimming has issues showing the stars.

A calibrated Vizio P series with a Roku Ultra is also a really good choice if the price of the TCL Series 8 is to expensive.


Again, whether the extra money for a 75" all depends on what you plan to watch.
Dave

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post #12845 of 12880 Old 03-13-2020, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVEngineer Ark View Post
I work for Arkansas PBS (AETN) in RF Engineering and have since 2002.
Cool, and welcome. I put up a Channel Master stealth mini yagi pointed at Redfield, and get you and KASN full scale here.
I love VHF high personally. Lots less multipath, and signal seems to carry so much better.
My only complaint on the station was the decision way back when to cease killing the subchannels during prime time to broadcast in 1080i on the main channel. Hopefully if you ever go to ATSC 3.0, you can go to 1080p or 4K on the main channel.

Dave

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post #12846 of 12880 Old 03-13-2020, 07:43 PM
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OK, general question....

Do ANY of the antenna manufacturers (Channel Master, Winegard, Antennas Direct, Etc) have any 2020 models out with UHF sections optimized for the new ATSC 3.0 band (UHF 14 to ~39) without wasting elements on 40-69 which are no longer used and would just introduce extra LTE signals to the amplifier?

Seems they are all just sticking with their current 14-69 (or 14-82) antennas with half the elements wasted out front.

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post #12847 of 12880 Old 03-13-2020, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenlr View Post
OK, general question....

Do ANY of the antenna manufacturers (Channel Master, Winegard, Antennas Direct, Etc) have any 2020 models out with UHF sections optimized for the new ATSC 3.0 band (UHF 14 to ~39) without wasting elements on 40-69 which are no longer used and would just introduce extra LTE signals to the amplifier?

Seems they are all just sticking with their current 14-69 (or 14-82) antennas with half the elements wasted out front.

Hey Dave, I'm betting the manufacturers are waiting until the dust settles on the repack phases before we see anything specifically designed for RF 14-36. In the meantime, if you have five or six REALLY PRETTY PENNIES in that antique piggy bank, you could be an early bird, ahead of the retail crowd, and pick up one each of these from Wade...


http://wadeantenna.com/product/uhf-c...14-to-27-yagi/
http://wadeantenna.com/product/uhf-c...28-to-35-yagi/


Yes those are commercial for the CATV crowd. I've got a feeling the sticker price will make more than one person say "Ouch!!"


Jim - Springfield, Missouri
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Antennas - Antennacraft MXU59 UHF antenna & home-brew version of Antennacraft VHF Y-10-7-13 antenna @ 25'. Both antennas fed through a Channel Master 7777 30dB pre-amp.
Tuners - Zenith DTT901 converter box; AirSpy HF+ sdr; Silicon Dust HDHomerun Dual ATSC tuner, using Rabbitears autologger support.
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post #12848 of 12880 Old 03-13-2020, 10:16 PM
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That would be super expensive, since they are cut to frequency, you would need about 10 of them, one for each channel, and combining them would be a nightmare.

Nice design tho. Like the diamond loop. I could build my own antenna if someone sold a kit with those element mounting braces.

N5GGG
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post #12849 of 12880 Old 03-14-2020, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenlr View Post
Well. I sit 12 feet from a 65" Vizio. 75' would be more immersive, but with a caveat.
What will you be watching the most? Only a couple stations in town are 1080i. The rest are 480i or 720p.
Comcast cable is ALL 720p now. On a 65" set at 14 feet, the 720p looks decent, but you can still see the fuzz and blocking on fast moving content.
Were I to be using a 75", that would be even more apparent.

Now, if you mainly watch 4K content by streaming, or BluRay, then the 75" would probably be worth the extra money.

Make sure you have a phone (or can borrow one) to download the TCL calibration app on. I have read the TCL series 8 (assume that it the one you want) will require calibration using the app. If you are planning on a Series 6 or 4, that should not be an issue, as they dont have anywhere near as many local dimming zones. The TCL Series 8's only issue is with "star field" on shows like Star Wars or Star Trek. The local dimming has issues showing the stars.

A calibrated Vizio P series with a Roku Ultra is also a really good choice if the price of the TCL Series 8 is to expensive.


Again, whether the extra money for a 75" all depends on what you plan to watch.
Dave

Yeah, just measured it. Where the 55" we have now, it is 12' 10" from the screen. Just above it where we plan to mount the new TV is around 13' even from the couch.

We very rarely ever watch any local OTA TV other than sitcoms that we can also get via Hulu or whatever and my wife's court shows which, honestly, doesn't have much going for them visually in the first place (LOL), so that isn't that big of a deal. We don't have Comcast either. Can't get the kids off of YouTube most of the time, so no biggie there. I've heard about the motion blur and stuff on these. Don't do a lot of sports watching in the living room. If I want to watch baseball, I usually do it in my room so I don't have to make everyone else "suffer". Don't really watch anything else that would be fast motion on it unless the movie we are watching is particularly fast. Even then I figure we'd be so engrossed on what was happening we'd hardly notice. Dunno though.

Can't really afford a 8-series or see a point to go that fancy. Barely had her talked into the 75" 6-series. It was only after seeing the price differential between the 65" and 75" TV's that made me wonder if it was even worth it for 10" more. Just seems nuts for there to be that big of a jump. Guess there are reasons behind it.

Hmm, after typing all that I'm wondering why I want a new TV at all. LOL Seems like what we have now works. Some of the lower lights scenes seem a bit darker than they should, so I'm wondering if the back lighting is starting to fade on it. I guess the main reason I want a new TV is just because our current one is 10 years old now and isn't 4K. I'd like to see the hype over 4K. We have an Apple TV 4K, too, so I'd like to make it use all its ability. Don't really care about the Roku part of it either because, like I said, we already have Apple TV's laying around and a couple older Roku's, too, so we're good there. As far as the brands, the TCL's just seem to be the best value....if you can get one without a broken screen or having the dirty TV effect to it, that is. I've seen lots of Amazon reviews where people got broken screens and have to keep replacing them. Guess TCL just doesn't do a great job in protecting their stuff during shipment.
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post #12850 of 12880 Old 03-14-2020, 08:41 AM
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Honestly, I would get it from Best Buy. That way you can just swap it back out if you get a bad one. If you are watching 4K content on an Apple TV box, you will find the bigger screen nicer, but I just looked at the price difference, and that is really a big jump. You might want to split the difference, since you dont care that much about Roku being integral, and go with a better brand. Here is one with local dimming, and its the same set I have except 5" larger:
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/vizio-7...?skuId=6380861

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post #12851 of 12880 Old 03-15-2020, 04:21 PM
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Only problem with getting from Best Buy is they don't have the newest model. At least not on the website. It shows 65R615 on the website when Amazon has the 65R625. For the same price. The 615 is 2018 model and the 625 is from 2019. Not sure the real differences, but newer is always better. At least to me.
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post #12852 of 12880 Old 03-15-2020, 08:22 PM
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Yea, I thought you were going to go with the Series 8 or maybe a Vizio. I dont believe even Walmart carries the series 6.
Amazon isn't bad. I ordered a huge rear screen projector tv with a color wheel from them, and it caused rainbow effects and gave me a headache, and they paid to come pick it back up and pack it. Just took a while to get the credit, so I had to wait, or pay up front for a replacement.
Newer is always better.
Looks like the one you want was rated best tv for the money by Cnet: https://www.cnet.com/news/best-tvs-for-2020/

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post #12853 of 12880 Old 03-17-2020, 04:58 PM
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Anyone have any experience wall mounting a TV? The reason I asked is because my wall is a little non-standard in the stud spacing. You see, the wall where I want it in the living room is nice and big for a TV to go. The other side, however, is where the problems lie. The other side is kind of T-shaped. Half of the wall (or maybe more than half, really) is kitchen area and the other side is the half bath in the hall. On the kitchen side where I ran the stud finder made it act as if the two studs I found were 21" or so apart instead of the usual 16". I think it's because the way the T part of the wall joined up and all that they didn't need to do it exactly right or couldn't because of the framing of the door or whatever. (On a side note, I've never been super great with a stud finder in the first place.) I didn't know how that would affect mounting a wall mount for a TV on it. I would expect you would HAVE to anchor into studs. I could put a few pilot holes in the wall to find the studs, but I don't think the XYL would be too keen on that idea. LOL



If anyone could provide me with some insight, I'd appreciate it.
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post #12854 of 12880 Old 03-17-2020, 05:36 PM
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Most mounts have wide mounting slots on the wall side, just make sure you get one that is 22" wide or more.
You should be able to hear where the studs are by tapping on the wall.
You for sure need to mount it to studs. Another option is a TV cabinet, with a riser mount on the back. This will allow you to hide the cables in the riser, which I am guessing you couldnt do with a wall mount.

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post #12855 of 12880 Old 03-17-2020, 07:04 PM
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I, honestly, can never hear the difference when tapping on the wall. LOL It all sounds pretty similar to me. I have found a thing that will let me route the wires through the wall. It's about $50, but it is a thing where you cut circular holes in the wall and it has plates that fit in it to the bottom, then you just run, basically, an extension cord that it comes with to the outlet for power. https://www.amazon.com/Legrand-Wirem...XBM0XNE04TJ0H9 Looks like something I will go with. I already have a TV stand, but just wanted to put it on the wall to bring it up a bit higher and because it looks cool.
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post #12856 of 12880 Old 03-17-2020, 09:25 PM
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That looks like a pretty cool little set. The other side of my TV is a bedroom closet, so I just cut the sheetrock out in a rectange, placed the mount, drilled the holes, and then went into the closet and placed studs behind the holes, and routed all the wires and HDMI cables, installed a 120V outlet, and then patched the sheetrock back on in the closet. That little device looks like it would have been easier

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post #12857 of 12880 Old 03-22-2020, 07:45 AM
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Pretty sure this has been mentioned before.... the AV sync on KATV 7 during network programming is terrible.

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Park Hill NLR AR CM-4228HD + Antennas Direct VHF-1 -> CM-7778 -> CM-3418
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post #12858 of 12880 Old 03-22-2020, 07:48 AM
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Audio sync certainly is SNAFUed on KATV, especially on their in-house productions (morning shows). Must depend on which personnel are there. Evening in-house productions (news) don't seem to suffer as much from the AV sync problem.
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post #12859 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 10:27 AM
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I finally attempted to mount this old outdoor rated philips antenna I had on a pole. I get good signals with everything (signal strength %, signal quality %, and symbol quality %) showing green. Way better than I've gotten before. Still can't get 49, of course. The channels look good for the most part, but I am having one issue. The danged symbol quality % part of the meter keeps dropping from 100% to 0 periodically. I just don't understand why if the rest of the levels are staying good and solid. When the symbol quality goes away, it causes the screen to glitch and pixel up for a second or more, but not too long. Long enough to irritate me. It's happening pretty often. I just don't get why. Anyone got any hints on what the problem could be? I am using what I think is good coax with good compression fitting connectors on it. Maybe it is multipath or something? I have the house between me and the towers. Anyway, any help would be appreciated.
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post #12860 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 12:13 PM
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Steveken - is the meter bars you are watching on an HDHomerun tuner or something else (TV)? Have you measured the time between the *glitches*, like the glitches are in repetition (regular intervals) ?? Maybe some outside interference, but that doesn't sound like the culprit. Based on your description, IF the symbol quality is taking a complete dive, it sounds like the device has a capacitor going bad. I had a FTA satellite receiver that did the same thing - a capacitor on the board started going bad and every signal across the spectrum would do the same thing - signal would take a dive every minute or so and then come back up.

Before we run down that road, what kind of receiver/device are you using and see if you can determine any kind of repetition in the interruption.


Jim - Springfield, Missouri

Antennas - Antennacraft MXU59 UHF antenna & home-brew version of Antennacraft VHF Y-10-7-13 antenna @ 25'. Both antennas fed through a Channel Master 7777 30dB pre-amp.
Tuners - Zenith DTT901 converter box; AirSpy HF+ sdr; Silicon Dust HDHomerun Dual ATSC tuner, using Rabbitears autologger support.
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post #12861 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 12:34 PM
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Yeah, that's about the only reliable tuner meter I have. It is a HD HomeRun Connect (the old version, not the Duo one). I tried it with my TiVo Roamio meter, but it is just too unreliable and iffy on if it is even showing the correct information.

There is no predictable time between when the symbol quality goes out. Sometimes 4 seconds, sometimes 20 seconds or so.I just looked at it again using KATV as the example. Just jumping around all over the place. Even the signal quality and strength were bouncing around, but not too awful bad. They at least stay up in the green for the most part. The signal quality % will dip a little into the yellow every now and then. I will say that the symbol quality doesn't always go completely to 0. Sometimes 45, sometimes 5, it just mainly goes to 0 for the most part.

The antenna is a Philips MANT940. It's a few years old and I just haven't really used it much because I was just too lazy to try to do anything with it outside and inside it didn't do worth a crap. Unless I completely take the enclosure off the antenna, there is no board or anything that I know of to look at. It just has a power injector inside to power up the amp in the antenna.


EDIT: I will add that the pole it is mounted to is just kinda leaning in a corner of my house so it will not fall over, so I don't think that's it. The antenna is probably only about 8 feet off the ground if I had to guess. I just didn't want to try to make it go up too high in the chance of ticking off the HOA or having fear of the wind knocking it over.

Last edited by steveken; 03-26-2020 at 12:51 PM.
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post #12862 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 12:40 PM
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Sounds like multipath to me. I had to take my MANT down, it was doing the same thing your is here. Ended up with a 8 bay pointed at Shinall, and a small yagi pointed at Redfield, and a combiner. Now I get all the channels.

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post #12863 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenlr View Post
Sounds like multipath to me. I had to take my MANT down, it was doing the same thing your is here. Ended up with a 8 bay pointed at Shinall, and a small yagi pointed at Redfield, and a combiner. Now I get all the channels.

Hmm, guess that's what I was thinking it would be. Would be nice if I could do without the amp part of it, but it just doesn't get any signal at all without the injector plugged in.

Wish I could afford something like you have or had a good way to mount it. I know I could probably put it in the attic, but I just don't have any clue at all how to get the coax down where I could hook it into where my distribution area is. And I know the HOA can't prohibit me from putting it on a pole in my own yard, but I just don't feel like fighting it.
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post #12864 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 12:58 PM
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This is what I use. Works great. Might not need one for ch 2 and ch 38 if you can get a decent signal off the back.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

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post #12865 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 01:22 PM
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It'd be nice to be able to do something to get rid of multipath. I guess the only real way to do it is to stick it up high enough in the air to keep it from getting any reflected signal. Or am I over simplifying the issue that causes multipath?
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post #12866 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 01:24 PM
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Incidentally, 38 is the main reason I wanted to try the outside antenna. The flat panel, paper like antenna that I had been using inside for a while seemed to have issues getting 38 from time to time. I thought putting one outside would solve that issue altogether.
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post #12867 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 01:25 PM
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Multipath is just the digital signal arriving at different times. The easiest way is to use a directional antenna. It will pick up the primary signal off the front, and reject the weaker reflections, assuming the reflection isnt actually coming from the same direction as the signal (such as bouncing off a water tower).
All my multipath is from the buildings downtown, so aiming the antenna so the buildings are directly off the side, provides 20db rejection of the multipath while giving me 9db gain on the primary.

Another thing that might help is an attenuator (or several splitters in a row) to reduce the reflections so the primary is the strongest.

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post #12868 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 02:18 PM
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I had it initially pointing almost due south from what I can tell about how the aiming of that antenna is at about 190 degrees or so, so that might have been part of it. I rotated it where the edge that I think is the front of it was pointing at the towers which is a little more north-west around 342 degrees and couldn't get 38 at all, so I didn't even bother checking to see if it was more stable. So, I turned it a little more northward...maybe like 003 degrees or so and could get 38 again. I think it might be a tiny bit more stable with less dropouts than I was getting before. I might just call it good for the time being. LOL
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post #12869 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 02:54 PM
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That antenna is bidirectional, so the flat side points toward stations and the edge is the most rejection. Glad you found a sweet spot. For some reason, 38 is always the one I have to play around with antennas to get, which is odd considering how tall the tower is and how much power they run. I never have a problem with PBS on the same tower using rf ch 7

Hope when they go to ATSC 3.0, they use as many VHF-HI channels as they can.

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post #12870 of 12880 Old 03-26-2020, 03:18 PM
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Oh, from everything I read, the edge was the front of it, so that's why I pointed it towards Shinall. Makes sense, though, that it is bidirectional. Why else would it have those big flat sides. I didn't try turning it anymore. Maybe that would have fixed it further, but I just figured leave it be. This whole area just kinda sucks because the biggest population has to look two ways to get signals. I wish they'd get their act together out there and move those antennas up with the rest of them. Makes no sense to have the two all by themselves out there in Redfield.
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