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post #10411 of 10475 Old 04-07-2018, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for additional details about the antenna element. Is your design empirical, or is it based on some theory?
Just a piece of copper that I had lying around, cutout from the pie antenna I made, which has poorer performance than the just a 6" circle of 12AWG copper wire. So far, 6" copper wire loop has given me the best performance in the flying saucer.

I am attaching pictures of the modification as well as original element. I am thinking of making the original element out of copper to see if it is any better. I do have a piece of copper lying around, but it harder to cut that shape, circles are easier to cut with my Dremel.
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post #10412 of 10475 Old 04-08-2018, 05:01 PM
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Thank you for the interesting photos, gireesh. There is some basis for your element design, which is a horizontal loop driven element in a 4-element UHF yagi. You will find a horizontal loop in a Loop Fed Yagi:
http://www.innovantennas.com/lfa-benefits.html

Your disk loop reminds me of the loop used by Antennas Direct in their C1, C2, and C4 UHF antennas.

If you can imagine a solid bowtie fullwave Fan dipole that has its ends bent upwards until they join, it is similar to the disk loop in your antenna. The advantage of the wide conductor is to increase the bandwidth.




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If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 04-08-2018 at 07:05 PM.
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post #10413 of 10475 Old 04-09-2018, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Thank you for the interesting photos, gireesh. There is some basis for your element design, which is a horizontal loop driven element in a 4-element UHF yagi. You will find a horizontal loop in a Loop Fed Yagi:
http://www.innovantennas.com/lfa-benefits.html
Thanks for the references. Has anyone done simulations on the crescent/pie above with the dimensions you provided?

I have question on the directors and reflector. Typically, they are connected to the the antenna element by the virtue of the fact that all elements are mounted on a metal spine. Because of that I assumed that these are just steel rods for transverse stability of the polycarbonate planes. I do know from my research every piece of metal can impact the currents in the antenna. So, of course there would be an effect. I have attached pictures with measurements.

Wondering how I can run a simulation on this, and hopefully try to improve its performance.
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post #10414 of 10475 Old 04-09-2018, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gireesh View Post
Thanks for the references. Has anyone done simulations on the crescent/pie above with the dimensions you provided
I'm sure that John Edwin Ross, III, Moab, UT, who invented the tapered UHF loop for Antennas Direct did some computer simulations. See patent application
US 2013/0162487 A1

You can look at the development of his design here:
http://www.johnross.com/SBE_2008.pdf

Quote:
I have question on the directors and reflector. Typically, they are connected to the the antenna element by the virtue of the fact that all elements are mounted on a metal spine. Because of that I assumed that these are just steel rods for transverse stability of the polycarbonate planes. I do know from my research every piece of metal can impact the currents in the antenna. So, of course there would be an effect. I have attached pictures with measurements.
What you had in the antenna when you purchased it is the classic Yagi antenna, more properly called the Yagi-Uda antenna because
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It was invented in 1926 by Shintaro Uda of Tohoku Imperial University, Japan, and (with a lesser role played by his colleague) Hidetsugu Yagi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagi%E2%80%93Uda_antenna

The reflector and directors are usually supported at the center (the "spine" is called a "boom") because the ends are high impedance points that are sensitive to losses. They are supported at the ends in your antenna for convenience.

The directors and reflector are "parasitic elements" that are not connected to anything. They pick up the signal energy from the transmitter which creates a current in the parasitic element. Since energy can not be created or destroyed, only transformed, the energy is radiated by the parasitic element and is picked up by the driven element and is added to the energy already being induced in it by the signal. This is how the parasitic elements increase the gain of the antenna. The driven element that is connected to your feedine is so named because the computer model energizes the antenna at the feedpoint as if it were a transmitting antenna. The characteristics of transmitting and receiving are identical, as defined by the Antenna Reciprocity Theorem.
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Wondering how I can run a simulation on this, and hopefully try to improve its performance.
You can learn to do computer modeling with free software. Forum member holl_ands is also on the DHC forum (digitalhome.ca) and might be willing to guide you:
digitalhome.ca/forum/81-over-air-ota-digital-television/
and in particular
digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/

I don't do computer modeling. I have been doing antenna experiments since I was 8 years old; I'm now 85, and still learning. I would rather spend the years I have left making antenna and signal measurements for real-world proof of performance, than climbing the computer modeling learning curve for antennas.

If you give some accurate measurements to holl_ands, he might be willing to model your antenna.

If you hope to make improvements in your antenna, you must have a way to make accurate comparisons of before and after. OTA signals are constantly changing in strength, so if you don't have a steady signal source, you must make a rapid switch between two antennas for a valid comparison.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 04-10-2018 at 08:36 AM.
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post #10415 of 10475 Old 04-10-2018, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
digitalhome.ca/forum/186-antenna-research-development/
Thank you for the great explanation and the link above. Now I am very much interested in this: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-...-%40-75-a.html - dimensions are closer to what I could live with

On crescent antenna, how do I find out what the gain difference when the plane of the crescent is vertical vs. horizontal when mounted?

Quote:
If you give some accurate measurements to holl_ands, he might be willing to model your antenna.
The two pictures I shown in my post has a ruler that will give folks fairly accurate dimensions, I think.

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post #10416 of 10475 Old 04-10-2018, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gireesh View Post
Thank you for the great explanation
You are welcome. I must give credit to Bill Orr W6SAI and his Beam Antenna Handbook which gave an explanation that finally made sense to me. I stated it on another forum in a little different way on 25-Mar-2017:
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In Bill Orr's Beam Antenna Handbook, he gives an interesting explanation of how a yagi parasitic element works. The incoming wavefront induces a current in the driven element, the reflector, and the director/directors. Since energy can not be created or destroyed, the energy in the parasitic elements has to go somewhere. It is re-radiated by the parasitic elements and coupled into the driven element to add to its energy, giving the desired increase in gain.
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and the link above. Now I am very much interested in this: http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/186-...-%40-75-a.html - dimensions are closer to what I could live with
That is an interesting patch antenna by Yurii. The radiation is perpendicular to the patch. It would have to be a little larger for best performance on the Post-repack UHF band. I have never built a patch antenna.
Quote:
On crescent antenna, how do I find out what the gain difference when the plane of the crescent is vertical vs. horizontal when mounted?
The fullwave tapered loop is vertical in the Antennas Direct antennas. Your loop element is an unusual application with it used in a horizontal position as the driven element in a Yagi antenna. You would need to model it and measure its gain against the original design as a standard.
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The two pictures I shown in my post has a ruler that will give folks fairly accurate dimensions, I think.
Yes, I see that. But, I don't know exactly where the original driven element was located other than by the screw holes. I am not going to model it; holl_ands will tell you what he needs to model it.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #10417 of 10475 Old 04-10-2018, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
But, I don't know exactly where the original driven element was located other than by the screw holes
Ha, got it. I never took a picture with the original element in the antenna.


Quote:
I am not going to model it; holl_ands will tell you what he needs to model it.
I know. Having developed software for last 30 yrs, I am comfortable attempting to run some simulations. I will probably do this as a hobby, and try to complete it.

I think my driven element is smaller than it needs to be. The channels I am interested in are @617, 623, 677 Mhz, I need an element that is about six inches (based on the rule, lambda = pid * d). The fourth channel is @213 MHz, comes in so strong across water that any piece of metal will give me a viable signal (currently SNR @ 27db, the highest my tuner records).
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post #10418 of 10475 Old 04-11-2018, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gireesh View Post
Having developed software for last 30 yrs, I am comfortable attempting to run some simulations. I will probably do this as a hobby, and try to complete it.
It sounds like you are a natural for computer modeling of antennas; it should come easily for you.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #10419 of 10475 Old 04-21-2018, 01:20 PM
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Anyone know when the channels move frequency? I thought KOMO and KING were switching physical channels soon? Was hoping it would provide some better reception.

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post #10420 of 10475 Old 04-21-2018, 06:34 PM
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Anyone know when the channels move frequency? I thought KOMO and KING were switching physical channels soon? Was hoping it would provide some better reception.
Changes here in Seattle will not take place until 2020. We are in the 2nd to last phase.
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post #10421 of 10475 Old 05-09-2018, 09:35 AM
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Coming soon- like at 10:30 this morning- Stadium TV on 13.4 and TBD on 22.4. Not sure what will happen to the two subchannels that are currently on 51.2 and 51.3.

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post #10422 of 10475 Old 05-13-2018, 11:55 PM
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Curious -- has anything happened to change King 5's (5.1/48-3) signal in the past year or so? In Duvall, we went from about 99% good reception to a signal that breaks up (digital garbage) every minute or two. Had to shift to streaming for NBC stuff.

Wondering if something ended up growing between their antenna and mine, or if they actually changed their configuration during that time.

Whatever, unless something changes, we're stuck with streaming for NBC stuff for now and hoping for better signal when the 2020 changes happen.
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post #10423 of 10475 Old 05-18-2018, 06:42 AM
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KVOS-12 was off air for several days, and the Facebook pages for that station, and for the METV national page, were alive with 'what happened' queries. It's not nice to fool Canadians and NW Wasingtonians. KVOS came back with retored service on their four sub-channels, at least until the next outage. Guess all those queries really are a good gauge of the viewership, perhaps better that Neilsons.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.

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post #10424 of 10475 Old 06-04-2018, 10:38 AM
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My King 5 reception from Port Ludlow has just dropped from 5 dots to 1 dot yesterday and today (June 3 and 4th). All other channels are 5 dots on my Table 4 tuner DVR. They are doing some "improvements" I guess.


Edit: It is now 1:30 pm on June 4 and King 5 is back to full strength. I hope they are done fixing things.

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post #10425 of 10475 Old 07-01-2018, 06:48 AM
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Hello, I'm a TV/radio hobbyist and have been studying the over-the-air TV signals from Seattle-Tacoma for a while now. I'm about 75 miles south-southwest of Seattle and the terrain between my location and there is quite unforgiving. Is there any hope of picking up many stations other than the local translators? I'm about 35 miles south of Olympia, which already has difficult reception for Seattle stations. I don't know how they can say I'm in the Seattle-Tacoma DMA with such crappy OTA contours for fringe areas. It feels more like being in an RF black hole for TV.

Here is a link to my TV Fool report for an antenna 20 ft. above the ground. -- (tvfool) ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038a2e050b9d c (no space between "d" and "c")
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post #10426 of 10475 Old 07-01-2018, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bumm13 View Post
Hello, I'm a TV/radio hobbyist and have been studying the over-the-air TV signals from Seattle-Tacoma for a while now. I'm about 75 miles south-southwest of Seattle and the terrain between my location and there is quite unforgiving. Is there any hope of picking up many stations other than the local translators? I'm about 35 miles south of Olympia, which already has difficult reception for Seattle stations. I don't know how they can say I'm in the Seattle-Tacoma DMA with such crappy OTA contours for fringe areas. It feels more like being in an RF black hole for TV.

Here is a link to my TV Fool report for an antenna 20 ft. above the ground. -- (tvfool) ?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9038a2e050b9d c (no space between "d" and "c")
Let's try this: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038a2e050b9dc (TV Fool report)
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post #10427 of 10475 Old 07-25-2018, 10:26 PM
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Selecting an over the air roof antenna to replace DirecTV Dish - Seattle Queen Anne

I'm trying to figure out which roof antenna would work best for me. I would like to remove an existing DirecTV slimline dish and mount the antenna in its place. It will be about 25' up on the roof with a pretty good line of sight. Primarily interested in receiving the network broadcasts - ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX.

tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90383d556856a7

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

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post #10428 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Drile View Post
I'm trying to figure out which roof antenna would work best for me. I would like to remove an existing DirecTV slimline dish and mount the antenna in its place. It will be about 25' up on the roof with a pretty good line of sight. Primarily interested in receiving the network broadcasts - ABC/NBC/CBS/FOX.

tvfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90383d556856a7

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

Don't pretend to be an expert, but looking at your TVFOOL report, I think it will be hard to find a reasonably priced antenna that won't work for you.
My main advice would be to not over-amplify the signal. A good preamp and you'll have a great signal. Lots of folks would love to have your location when it comes to OTA reception.
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post #10429 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 06:27 AM
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My main advice would be to not amplify the signal at all.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #10430 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 07:33 AM
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I was looking at ClearStream 2V Complete, Channel Master CM-4228HD, and RCA Compact Outdoor Yagi HDTV Antenna. Would any of those appear to work fine based on the tvfool report? I'd prefer the sleeker looking antennas (i.e., not Yagi) if it will work ok for me.
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post #10431 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 07:41 AM
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ClearStream 2V Complete should be fine.
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post #10432 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 07:44 AM
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Awesome, thanks!
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post #10433 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 09:20 AM
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Moving this to the Seattle thread in case anyone there wishes to chime in.

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post #10434 of 10475 Old 07-26-2018, 09:32 AM
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ClearStream 2V Complete should be fine.
One other question - if I point the antenna South, will I be able to pick up channel 13 (VHF Hi, 21.7miles distance) with the ClearStream 2V? It looks like I should be able to, but just want to confirm as I've read some conflicting info about how it does with VHF.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...90383d556856a7
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post #10435 of 10475 Old 07-27-2018, 12:37 PM
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Rf 13

If you are looking for what's on KCPQ RF 13 from Gold Mountain, the programming is duplicated exactly on KCPQ-LD (RF 22) from Capitol Hill. Don't know your exact location on QA, but if RF 13 doesn't come in on the backside of your antenna the RF 22 should come in nicely. If you get two 13.1, 13.2 etc. signals then you are getting both.

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post #10436 of 10475 Old 07-27-2018, 03:36 PM
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If you are looking for what's on KCPQ RF 13 from Gold Mountain, the programming is duplicated exactly on KCPQ-LD (RF 22) from Capitol Hill. Don't know your exact location on QA, but if RF 13 doesn't come in on the backside of your antenna the RF 22 should come in nicely. If you get two 13.1, 13.2 etc. signals then you are getting both.

Val
Didn’t realize that - thanks!
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post #10437 of 10475 Old 08-16-2018, 06:53 AM
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Start TV, the new CBS diginet aimed at women will begin 3 September. Recent rabbitears.info posting places the network on KVOS 12.4 and KSTW 11.2 Both stations may not be equipped for the first day of launch, but it will arrive soon. On KVOS, Decades gets the bump to make room. That will cause a lot of angry protests, I'm sure.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #10438 of 10475 Old 08-27-2018, 04:46 PM
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Antenna Installer in Kirkland, WA? [for home weather device mounting]

Ok slightly off topic, i need to mount a home weather device around 10ft higher than my roof line.
I am not super handy and i am struggling to figure out where / how to mount.
It uses a 1" pole mount (mounts right to the top of the pole)

I was thinking of using galvanized plumbers poles as the device is sensitive to vibration and these have weight

Bottom line i think i need an antenna installer to do the job / figure out right equipment

Any reccomendations of a professional installer who is creative this way?

A projector, some seats, a screen, oh a receiver and some speakers i guess, and a few consoles, an AT-AT, and a Millenium Falcon i need to unbox and have a display table made...
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post #10439 of 10475 Old 08-29-2018, 07:36 AM
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A last minute change of plans for KVOS-12 Bellingham. That station will launch Start TV from CBS, but on their new 12.5 sub-channel. This change allows KVOS to keep Decades on 12.4. Start will also appear on KSTW 11.2. KFFV will have Decades on their 44.4.

Will the last subscriber leaving Dish Network please turn off the satellite.
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post #10440 of 10475 Old 08-29-2018, 11:13 AM
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Location: Kenmore, Wa.
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Antenna Advice for Kenmore, WA 98028

I am looking to soon install an antenna and am hoping to get some advice. I live in Kenmore (98028), which is "between" Bothell & Lake Forest Park/Lake City (N. Seattle). My residence is a metal mobile home and there are several other mobile homes in the park. I have asked Channel Master (with my address) and they recommend the Masterpiece 45. A neighbor has an "off-brand" antenna that was purchased on eBay for approx. $45 and he is happy. He has the antenna mounted on a 15-20 (approx.) pole.

Here is a link to the TV Fool Signal Analysis Report. I am looking for local channels and hope to find a way to add CNN and a few others in the near future once I can figure out which device / service to go with (Roku? Hulu? I don't know; my head is spinning).

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038ed1a31bd0e

"It's funny how the colours of the real world only seem really real when you viddy them on the screen."

- - Alex DeLarge, A Clockwork Orange
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