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post #17551 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 06:49 AM
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@LenL would appreciate this little story. I found out this weekend that when I turn on the lights in the garage (4 florescent bulbs), WJLP starts macroblocking! My lo-VHf antenna is in the attic on the other side of the garage and a higher elevation (roof of the garage is at a lower hight than the attic). Luckily the garage lights don't get much usage.

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post #17552 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 07:07 AM
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Sounds pretty typical for low-VHF. At my parents' house, WBRA-3 breaks up when the vacuum cleaner, blender, paper shredder, etc. are running. It drops out when fluorescent lights are switched on or off, when the microwave door is opened or closed, etc. And you'll be able to tell when a storm is coming or has passed by the breakups in WJLP, probably long before or after you hear thunder.

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post #17553 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 12:12 PM
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Aero 1

You will even appreciate this fact even more.

My computer is on the second floor against the outside wall. My antennas are on the other side a few feet up.

When I turn my PC On and the Samsung LED monitor I lose not only hi VHF but UHF reception takes a big hit too.

So I don't turn my PC on at night when TV viewing or recordings are taking place.
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post #17554 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 01:10 PM
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Hey Len,
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
My computer is on the second floor against the outside wall. My antennas are on the other side a few feet up.

When I turn my PC On and the Samsung LED monitor I lose not only hi VHF but UHF reception takes a big hit too.

So I don't turn my PC on at night when TV viewing or recordings are taking place.
Some questions:

1. Have you tried operating the PC and monitor on the first floor, and if so, what were the results?

2. Can you verify that the same electric circuit used to supply power for the PC and monitor is not the same one being used for the antenna rotor, televisions, or any device utilized to receive OTA signals?

Your reception appears to be highly sensitive. I don't doubt what you are experiencing, but the causation(s) is/are certainly interesting, and it would be great if they could be isolated and these problems remedied.
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post #17555 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 08:16 PM
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I walked home from Time Square to my apartment last evening. It's less than a mile and a half. The fact remains that I have no reception of Channel 3 even after trying 3 new antennas, and I'm on the 8th floor. Ironically, the only time I saw a second-long glimpse of a black and white program was when I was trying out not a rabbit ears but another flat digital antenna. Since then, nothing. I love METV, and I just don't understand them making such a bone-head move in the biggest city in the country. I can't even get the channel scans to acknowledge it's there. Is there some way they can simulcast this station over UHF, where CBS and NBC have moved? I have half a mind to write them and WJLP a letter about this. It's very disappointing.
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post #17556 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseha View Post
I walked home from Time Square to my apartment last evening. It's less than a mile and a half. The fact remains that I have no reception of Channel 3 even after trying 3 new antennas, and I'm on the 8th floor. Ironically, the only time I saw a second-long glimpse of a black and white program was when I was trying out not a rabbit ears but another flat digital antenna. Since then, nothing. I love METV, and I just don't understand them making such a bone-head move in the biggest city in the country. I can't even get the channel scans to acknowledge it's there. Is there some way they can simulcast this station over UHF, where CBS and NBC have moved? I have half a mind to write them and WJLP a letter about this. It's very disappointing.
Do you have line-of-sight to the transmitter, and can you tell what the signal strength is at your location? Your problem might be some kind of interference rather than a weak signal. If multipath is an issue, a more directional antenna might help.
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post #17557 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 09:17 PM
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Do you have line-of-sight to the transmitter, and can you tell what the signal strength is at your location? Your problem might be some kind of interference rather than a weak signal. If multipath is an issue, a more directional antenna might help.
I think no to both questions unfortunately, I have another building across from me, and if you mean the signal strength for channel 3, there is none showing up on my Samsung LCD TV. The Tivo tuner won't even fix on 3, it jumps to 4 every time I try to enter 3 for a signal strength reading.
I only just set up the latest rabbit ears (a Radio Shack model which specifically claims to cover all VHF frequencies) today so will try again in the window tomorrow, but it's weird, it's just like there's nothing there. Sometimes I don't get 11 or 13 either but can pull them in by making adjustments. ABC/7 is okay.
Thanks for the suggestions.
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post #17558 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 10:20 PM
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Hey Roseha,
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseha View Post
I walked home from Time Square to my apartment last evening. It's less than a mile and a half. The fact remains that I have no reception of Channel 3 even after trying 3 new antennas, and I'm on the 8th floor. Ironically, the only time I saw a second-long glimpse of a black and white program was when I was trying out not a rabbit ears but another flat digital antenna. Since then, nothing.
Please attempt the following, if you haven't already done so:

Re-connect one of the Rabbit-Ear antennas to the TV/Converter Box, and make sure the connection is snug. Using the numeric keypad, manually tune the TV/Converter Box to RF 3 or 3-1. Extend the rabbit-ear elements fully and position the elements so they are parallel to the floor (this was uhfyagi's recommended position).

Quote:
Originally Posted by roseha View Post
I love METV, and I just don't understand them making such a bone-head move in the biggest city in the country. I can't even get the channel scans to acknowledge it's there. Is there some way they can simulcast this station over UHF, where CBS and NBC have moved? I have half a mind to write them and WJLP a letter about this. It's very disappointing.
The only way this "new" station could enter the market was via the VHF band, and RF channel 3 was the only non-conflicting dial position.

I know this doesn't help you or other OTA-only viewers, but PMCM TV has already reissued its must-carry requests to all of the cable/phone/satellite pay-TV providers in the New York City market. If their Alternate PSIP Proposal is approved, WJLP will be available via those systems, presumably on Channel 3.

A simulcast is definitely possible, although not at all likely on any of the NYC full-power TV stations. Possible UHF station candidates would include some of the Class A and Low-Power stations, such as WDVB-CD, WNYN-LD, WMUN-CD, WMBQ-CD, WBQM-LD, or any of the Island LDTVs (26, 32, and 43), although the Island stations are usually leased with an all-or-nothing proposition. Full-power WRNN-TV could be another possibility. There are other stations, but their programming is either ethnic or reserved.

I think it would be an excellent idea for anyone who has attempted to receive this station without success to not only write the station, but carbon-copy the FCC. In light of the upcoming spectrum auction, any letters from TV viewers that for technical reasons would discredit the use of the VHF band as a replacement for the UHF band is a good thing. Is it likely that any such letters would have any meaningful effect while they contemplate how much of a public resource to sell-off for billions of dollars???

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, of course not

But since letters can be filed electronically, no one will lose 49¢ in postage fees.
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post #17559 of 20913 Old 10-06-2014, 10:41 PM
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It's a shame that more apartment buildings don't have community antennas on the rooftops, to serve all of the tenants of the apartment building. People have become used to paying for TV programming, but when you consider how high the cost of living is, it would seem that there would be quite a few people interested in having a way to get TV programming at a low cost.
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post #17560 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey Len,

Some questions:

1. Have you tried operating the PC and monitor on the first floor, and if so, what were the results?

2. Can you verify that the same electric circuit used to supply power for the PC and monitor is not the same one being used for the antenna rotor, televisions, or any device utilized to receive OTA signals?

Your reception appears to be highly sensitive. I don't doubt what you are experiencing, but the causation(s) is/are certainly interesting, and it would be great if they could be isolated and these problems remedied.

The answers:


1. No. It is not feasible to move my PC.


2. Every TV in every room is impacted. So it is NOT circuitry. It is because the Antenna is too close to the computer/LED monitor.
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post #17561 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 06:20 AM
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It is not 3.1....

It is not 3.1 for the new VHF Lo channel. It is 3.10.

There is a 3.1 that my OTA system picks up on, shows carrier and signal, but no information.

Also, I got for one night, a Low Power allocation on VHF 12, a NYC repeater of an Amityville station. My location means I have line of sight to NYC but that anything east of the the Suffolk/Nassau border is impossible (I know this by ham radio contesting on VHF) due to hills.

Anyway, my Tivo and Sony HDD boxes, both OTA only, need to see 3.10. 3.1 gets "no signal" otherwise.

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post #17562 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veedon View Post
Now every hep cat will want to have a big outdoor antenna capable of receiving VHF-Lo.
Ha ! some of us never took it down !!!!

In Vienna we sit, in late night cafe. Straight Connection, on T.E.E.
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post #17563 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
The answers:


1. No. It is not feasible to move my PC.


2. Every TV in every room is impacted. So it is NOT circuitry. It is because the Antenna is too close to the computer/LED monitor.
RF hash is a big problem. Computers are very dirty. Look up "Tempest" for a spy tech that relies on the RF garbage to actually read what is on the computer.

Hams have this issue all the time, and AM radio broadcasters have suffered from an increasing "noise floor".

Best approach is to, if possible, make sure the computers and the TV, and antenna, have a common ground. Most consumer equipment can't be grounded to chassis, so make sure the plugs are all three prong.

Distance (which I understand is a problem) should be maximized.

RF chokes (check any ham radio dealer) on the computer cables and the TV Cables can sometimes help.

The issue is simply that computer makers don't care, and if the gadget tosses noise into the RF, well, "that's not our problem".

As a kid, I remember losing channel 2 every time my mom vacuumed !

In Vienna we sit, in late night cafe. Straight Connection, on T.E.E.
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post #17564 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 11:40 AM
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3.1 or 3.10

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedlaw View Post
It is not 3.1 for the new VHF Lo channel. It is 3.10.

There is a 3.1 that my OTA system picks up on, shows carrier and signal, but no information.

Anyway, my Tivo and Sony HDD boxes, both OTA only, need to see 3.10. 3.1 gets "no signal" otherwise.
Since roseha already indicated "No Signal" on RF 3, I suggested to try channel 3-1 because that would tell her TV/receiver that she was attempting to tune a digital channel as opposed to analog.

From my experience, some TVs - not all - do not properly decipher double-digit minor channels, and instead list each stream chronologically (i.e.: -1, -2, -3, etc.) I am presently using a television that performs in this manner when scanning for Clear QAM cable channels. The TV also displays the OTA streams for WNYW and WWOR-TV interestingly. Here are my lineups for those channels:

WNYW
5-3 (WNYW SD), 5-1 (WNYW HD), 5-2 (Movies!)

WWOR-TV

9-1 (WWOR-TV HD), 9-3 (Bounce), 9-4 (MundoFx), 9-2 (WWOR-TV SD)

Rescanning does not change the orders in which the streams are arranged.

But you are correct that roseha should also try tuning channel 3-10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedlaw View Post
Also, I got for one night, a Low Power allocation on VHF 12, a NYC repeater of an Amityville station. My location means I have line of sight to NYC but that anything east of the the Suffolk/Nassau border is impossible (I know this by ham radio contesting on VHF) due to hills.
That is WPXU-LD Amityville, which effectively acts as a translator for WPXN-TV New York.
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post #17565 of 20913 Old 10-07-2014, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Since roseha already indicated "No Signal" on RF 3, I suggested to try channel 3-1 because that would tell her TV/receiver that she was attempting to tune a digital channel as opposed to analog.

.......................
Rescanning does not change the orders in which the streams are arranged.

But you are correct that roseha should also try tuning channel 3-10.

Got it!!!




Just in time for Perry Mason
Thanks very much to everyone who made suggestions. Until tonight I had no idea I could manually enter 3-1, 3-10 on my remotes. I was pulling in a lot of channels, over 80 on the Tivo tuner, so I tried 3-1 and 3-10 and got "searching for signal" so I put it on 3-10 and pushed the antennas down as far as they could go. (Radio Shack rabbit ears model 1500246 in the window, about $25). I heard voices from the TV and it's now there. Thanks very much again everyone.
BTW the channel didn't show up on the (earlier) scan, should I leave well enough alone or would running a channel scan be a good idea? Tivo is just showing the program call sign with no program information at the moment.

Last edited by roseha; 10-07-2014 at 09:29 PM. Reason: re the channel scan
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post #17566 of 20913 Old 10-08-2014, 01:40 AM
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Talking Congratulations Roseha!

Hey roseha
Quote:
Originally Posted by roseha View Post
Got it!!!




Just in time for Perry Mason
Thanks very much to everyone who made suggestions. Until tonight I had no idea I could manually enter 3-1, 3-10 on my remotes. I was pulling in a lot of channels, over 80 on the Tivo tuner, so I tried 3-1 and 3-10 and got "searching for signal" so I put it on 3-10 and pushed the antennas down as far as they could go. (Radio Shack rabbit ears model 1500246 in the window, about $25). I heard voices from the TV and it's now there. Thanks very much again everyone.
BTW the channel didn't show up on the (earlier) scan, should I leave well enough alone or would running a channel scan be a good idea? Tivo is just showing the program call sign with no program information at the moment.
Congratulations!!!!

When I read your post tonight, I cannot begin to tell you how happy and thrilled I was to learn that you succeeded at last in your efforts to receive a reliable signal from WJLP Middletown Township

Without question, the suggestions offered here represent a collaborative effort on the part of all AVS forum members whose objective here is to enhance the viewing experiences for every viewer to the greatest extent possible. I am happy that, in this instance, I could provide a portion of advice that, when implemented in conjunction with the suggestions of others, brought about the successful result you realized tonight.

The picture you attached to your post perfectly captures your success

To answer your question: A rescan would only be necessary if you lost several channels as a result of any recent scans. Otherwise, you could manually tune to the deleted channels and add them back individually, which would be my preferred method.

In the event that WJLP is not yet added, you should be able to manually add the station without performing a full rescan.

Are you trying to add WJLP on both the TV and the Tivo?

I have one other suggestion at the moment: Take a flash-enabled picture of your TV antenna as it presently is oriented. This may come in handy in the event your antenna is accidentally moved and you would need to reorient it.

Congratulations again, Roseha, and I hope your reception of the signal remains reliable
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post #17567 of 20913 Old 10-08-2014, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey roseha

Congratulations!!!!

When I read your post tonight, I cannot begin to tell you how happy and thrilled I was to learn that you succeeded at last in your efforts to receive a reliable signal from WJLP Middletown Township

Without question, the suggestions offered here represent a collaborative effort on the part of all AVS forum members whose objective here is to enhance the viewing experiences for every viewer to the greatest extent possible. I am happy that, in this instance, I could provide a portion of advice that, when implemented in conjunction with the suggestions of others, brought about the successful result you realized tonight.

The picture you attached to your post perfectly captures your success

To answer your question: A rescan would only be necessary if you lost several channels as a result of any recent scans. Otherwise, you could manually tune to the deleted channels and add them back individually, which would be my preferred method.

In the event that WJLP is not yet added, you should be able to manually add the station without performing a full rescan.

Are you trying to add WJLP on both the TV and the Tivo?

I have one other suggestion at the moment: Take a flash-enabled picture of your TV antenna as it presently is oriented. This may come in handy in the event your antenna is accidentally moved and you would need to reorient it.

Congratulations again, Roseha, and I hope your reception of the signal remains reliable
Noticed last night I had lots of breakup on wpjl METV anybody else had this problem? it is possible that overcast or chance of rain last night was the culprit?
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post #17568 of 20913 Old 10-08-2014, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey roseha

Congratulations!!!!

When I read your post tonight, I cannot begin to tell you how happy and thrilled I was to learn that you succeeded at last in your efforts to receive a reliable signal from WJLP Middletown Township

Without question, the suggestions offered here represent a collaborative effort on the part of all AVS forum members whose objective here is to enhance the viewing experiences for every viewer to the greatest extent possible. I am happy that, in this instance, I could provide a portion of advice that, when implemented in conjunction with the suggestions of others, brought about the successful result you realized tonight.

The picture you attached to your post perfectly captures your success

To answer your question: A rescan would only be necessary if you lost several channels as a result of any recent scans. Otherwise, you could manually tune to the deleted channels and add them back individually, which would be my preferred method.

In the event that WJLP is not yet added, you should be able to manually add the station without performing a full rescan.

Are you trying to add WJLP on both the TV and the Tivo?

I have one other suggestion at the moment: Take a flash-enabled picture of your TV antenna as it presently is oriented. This may come in handy in the event your antenna is accidentally moved and you would need to reorient it.

Congratulations again, Roseha, and I hope your reception of the signal remains reliable
Noticed last night I had lots of breakup on wpjl METV, anybody else experienced this last night? Can it possible that being overcast or chance of rain last night was the cause?

Last edited by uhfyagi; 10-08-2014 at 07:33 AM.
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post #17569 of 20913 Old 10-08-2014, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post
Hey roseha

Congratulations!!!!

When I read your post tonight, I cannot begin to tell you how happy and thrilled I was to learn that you succeeded at last in your efforts to receive a reliable signal from WJLP Middletown Township

Without question, the suggestions offered here represent a collaborative effort on the part of all AVS forum members whose objective here is to enhance the viewing experiences for every viewer to the greatest extent possible. I am happy that, in this instance, I could provide a portion of advice that, when implemented in conjunction with the suggestions of others, brought about the successful result you realized tonight.

The picture you attached to your post perfectly captures your success

To answer your question: A rescan would only be necessary if you lost several channels as a result of any recent scans. Otherwise, you could manually tune to the deleted channels and add them back individually, which would be my preferred method.

In the event that WJLP is not yet added, you should be able to manually add the station without performing a full rescan.

Are you trying to add WJLP on both the TV and the Tivo?

I have one other suggestion at the moment: Take a flash-enabled picture of your TV antenna as it presently is oriented. This may come in handy in the event your antenna is accidentally moved and you would need to reorient it.

Congratulations again, Roseha, and I hope your reception of the signal remains reliable
Thanks very much Giacomo, for your multiple helpful replies, and thanks again to all. When I realized I could enter 3-1, 3-10 manually it was like a light bulb going on. To answer your question, while I have tried to enter the station on both Tivo and the TV (the antenna's on a splitter from Radio Shack) only Tivo is picking it up (and it still looks fine) but that's really okay since I wanted to be able to record programs from METV. I will photograph the antenna tomorrow when I have daylight, thanks for the suggestion.

To answer uhfyagi's question, I don't think the weather was my problem, since last night was the first time I got WJLP to really come in. I'd been trying for almost a week before that. It's coming in again today in much better weather and has every time I've tried.

Thanks again, this is clearly a very helpful forum!
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post #17570 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 02:43 AM
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Noticed last night I had lots of breakup on wpjl METV anybody else had this problem? it is possible that overcast or chance of rain last night was the culprit?
I could not get the station at all yesterday just a frozen pixelated image. Also now for the past few weeks I can no longer receive channel 31 as it was always a week signal one to two bars but I was able to get it.

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post #17571 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 03:18 AM
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Seems like my problem with receiving METV during the night is localized, most likely some kind of interference, either the street lights ei, light post or man made ei, car engines, microwave so on, quite weird during day is strong signal, might have get a vhf low antenna if this continues. screen looks normal with a band of lines and flickering, also the signal meter fluctuates a lot is not steady like during daytime. I try to post a picture later if possible. anyone have a suggestion, for cause.

thxs

Last edited by uhfyagi; 10-09-2014 at 03:31 AM.
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post #17572 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 06:00 AM
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Low VHF Antenna

You may want to rethink getting a low VHF antenna when you see how big the elements have to be to pick up low VHF.....


Also as has been said by others low VHF is subject to lots of potential signal interference from many sources inside and outside your living/viewing space.


Low vhf is a very BAD choice for TV programming.
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post #17573 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by uhfyagi View Post
Seems like my problem with receiving METV during the night is localized, most likely some kind of interference, either the street lights ei, light post or man made ei, car engines, microwave so on, quite weird during day is strong signal, might have get a vhf low antenna if this continues. screen looks normal with a band of lines and flickering, also the signal meter fluctuates a lot is not steady like during daytime. I try to post a picture later if possible. anyone have a suggestion, for cause.

thxs
light bulbs?

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Originally Posted by LenL View Post
You may want to rethink getting a low VHF antenna when you see how big the elements have to be to pick up low VHF.....
yep, my lo vhf antenna is 112 inches wide at its longest element and 80 inches long and it takes a nice chunk of space in my attic.

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post #17574 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 10:12 AM
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Low vhf is a very BAD choice for TV programming.
I agree it should have been re-branded for radio broadcasts. I still can't believe that some cities like Las Vegas and Philadelphia get a full power network affiliate on a low VHF channel.

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post #17575 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 11:33 AM
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light bulbs? during the day, not most of my nearby houses are using appliances, lights, probably my antenna is being interfere during the evening when people are using them.

I replaced the 91xg with winter antenna thats smaller in lenght could be another reason I'm losing metv, with 91xg. metv was pegged at 100% all the time.

yep, my lo vhf antenna is 112 inches wide at its longest element and 80 inches long and it takes a nice chunk of space in my attic.
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I agree it should have been re-branded for radio broadcasts. I still can't believe that some cities like Las Vegas and Philadelphia get a full power network affiliate on a low VHF channel.
I agree the fcc screwed selling off high uhf band. if anything the low vhf and low uhf 14-30 should of been sold.

Last edited by uhfyagi; 10-09-2014 at 11:36 AM.
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post #17576 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 11:42 AM
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reddice, I was earthlink customer, till last month, when I went to twc to return my rented modem, the rep there, offered me a faster connection with twc. 50/5 for $5 more a month than i was paying for standard on earthlink, for a year I pay #34 .99. I know that earthlink is pretty good service.

Last edited by uhfyagi; 10-09-2014 at 11:45 AM. Reason: error
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post #17577 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 03:11 PM
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I agree the fcc screwed selling off high uhf band. if anything the low vhf and low uhf 14-30 should of been sold.
But then wouldn't everyone be walking around with 112 inch antennas on their smart phones?
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post #17578 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 04:32 PM
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There are some advantages to VHF in mountainous areas and in some wide open spaces where signals need to cover large distances, but in urban areas VHF is not great, and VHF-Lo is downright crummy in many cases.

Would those 112-inch smart phone antennas improve your chance of getting a good seat on a subway train? Maybe they could be used to hail a taxi.
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post #17579 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 07:30 PM
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But then wouldn't everyone be walking around with 112 inch antennas on their smart phones?
fractal antenna like the one ring used on all cell phones
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post #17580 of 20913 Old 10-09-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by veedon View Post
There are some advantages to VHF in mountainous areas and in some wide open spaces where signals need to cover large distances, but in urban areas VHF is not great, and VHF-Lo is downright crummy in many cases.

Would those 112-inch smart phone antennas improve your chance of getting a good seat on a subway train? Maybe they could be used to hail a taxi.
I agree VHF high is pretty good. VHF low should only have been used for radio stations.

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