New York, NY - OTA - Page 655 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19621 of 20535 Old 09-14-2018, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by nyctveng View Post
There is no guarantee from stations or the FCC that your reception will be good all the time. Stations try the best they can and there are many things outside of their control. If you want reliable TV, that is what cable TV is for.
Nor should there be any such guarantees implied or otherwise because OTA reception is ALWAYS dynamic with MANY variables, some of which do exist with the end-users.

That still doesn't address the matter of approving multiple translators on one frequency, or short-spacing issues such as that which exists with WCBS-TV New York & WFSB Hartford and will continue to exist after the repack. Radio and television audiences have literally NO SAY on any of this. But, yes, cable TV is always an available option....

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r321...her-Price-Hike
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post #19622 of 20535 Old 09-14-2018, 02:37 PM
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Signal Strength and more

Digital TV reception is challenging. Signal strength is not a good benchmark for locking a signal. What is more important is the linearity of the signal and how sharp 'the edges' are. Linearity refers to how even the signal appears across the the entire channel. You can have 40 db carrier to noise and yet not be able to lock due to poor linearity or poor definition of the waveform. Case in point is/was the UHF transmit antenna that hung on the west side of ESB from the beginning of DTV. Due to the design and structure of this particular antenna and the way it was blocked to the east and northeast it suffered from some strange linearity problems. This affected WCBS, WNBC and WWOR early on. You might receive a strong signal, but because the linearity of the signal was so uneven, it was still impossible to lock. Take a look on the web for information regarding a technical formula of measurement called MER (modulation error ratio.) I find this is the most useful figure for predicting if you will be able to achieve a good signal lock. Of course, if you just happen to own a coveted spectrum analyzer you can tell nearly immediately if a signal is good. Graphical representation of DTV is a wonderful thing. I would much rather have a good sharp and flat signal that is only 5 db above the 'grass' (noise level) than a bumpy mess at +40 db. Also worth strong consideration is the correlation between local FM broadcast frequencies and the TV frequencies you are trying to receive (the nightmare of FM harmonics.) The FM broadcast band (88-108 MHz) times two (176-216 MHz) almost perfectly covers the frequencies for high VHF channels 7 through 13 (174-216 MHz.) Some of the incessant unreliability of WNET Channel 13 may be caused by this relationship. I live about 45 miles north of NYC in Northern Westchester. My strongest FMs are on 100.7, 106.3 and 107.1 MHz. WHUD 100.7 sits on Channel 11 and the other two WFME 106.3 and WXPK 107.1 attack Channel 13. Although FM trap filters may help this situation if tuned properly, going after two frequencies landing on Channel 13 is difficult. I can't wait until WNET flips to Channel 12. Finally, signal propagation can also be a factor. When nice humid conditions occur (summertime mornings, oncoming hurricanes and many other unpredictable factors) signals can 'duct' from hundreds of miles away. For the NYC area, this includes areas down the East Coast from as far as South Carolina and as north as Boston or beyond up and down the Atlantic shore. Reception into Central New York and Central Pennsylvania are not uncommon either. When these out-of-town signals appear, you might also experience blackouts in reception. If you re-scan your set or set-top box during a 'tropo opening' you might see some entertaining DX - Yes, you can see perfect lock from TV stations hundreds of miles away. In summary, think about DTV signal linearity and FM broadcast harmonics! I would welcome your comments. Karl Zuk N2KZ Katonah, NY FN31eh
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post #19623 of 20535 Old 09-14-2018, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by darkegg View Post
I found out my LED computer monitor on the floor below the attic is creating some interference on RF 8. The interference brings the signal quality just below the 50% mark (or around 50%) to make WNJB unwatchable. With the LED monitor turned off or in sleep mode, I can watch WNJB with some minor glitches. At this point, I'm not sure a bigger antenna will even help. I just need to go up higher away from all the household interference. VHF is a pain.
I'm amazed you can pull in WNJB at all in Queens. I'm in NJ, less than 10 miles from the transmitter, and I get nothing.
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post #19624 of 20535 Old 09-14-2018, 06:26 PM
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I'm amazed you can pull in WNJB at all in Queens. I'm in NJ, less than 10 miles from the transmitter, and I get nothing.
It wasn't easy. I found this one spot in the attic where I could get a lock (the highest point in the attic) and hung my antenna there on a nail.
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post #19625 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 07:23 AM
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I'm amazed you can pull in WNJB at all in Queens. I'm in NJ, less than 10 miles from the transmitter, and I get nothing.

Since you are in West Orange you would have to relocate your antenna direction to point south west to Basking Ridge NJ and away from 1WTC and the ESB to your east.


Hence you will lose all of the NYC stations and received WNJB. When I complained to WNJB people about losing their broadcasts this was their expert advice to me.



So now that you have expert advice what will you do with it? I flushed it down the toilet.
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post #19626 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LenL View Post
Since you are in West Orange you would have to relocate your antenna direction to point south west to Basking Ridge NJ and away from 1WTC and the ESB to your east.
Yes I'm aware of the antenna direction. I even tried using an omni-directional antenna and there is still no sign of WNJB. I must be in some sort of dead zone even though the coverage map has me in the "easy indoor" area for this station. The terrain is very hilly around here so that may be part of the issue. I'm on the ridge facing east towards NYC.

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post #19627 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 11:30 AM
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Yes I'm aware of the antenna direction. I even tried using an omni-directional antenna and there is still no sign of WNJB. I must be in some sort of dead zone even though the coverage map has me in the "easy indoor" area for this station. The terrain is very hilly around here so that may be part of the issue. I'm on the ridge facing east towards NYC.

Keep in mind the WNJB is 8.1 VHF and so you also need a decent VHF antenna to receive the broadcast. I doubt that rabbit ears or a MOHU leaf type antenna will work well. That may be your issue.
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post #19628 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LenL View Post
Keep in mind the WNJB is 8.1 VHF and so you also need a decent VHF antenna to receive the broadcast. I doubt that rabbit ears or a MOHU leaf type antenna will work well. That may be your issue.
Nope, not an antenna issue. I receive WJLP (3), WABC (7), WPIX (11) all perfectly on VHF. I'm using an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna.
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post #19629 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ansky212 View Post
The terrain is very hilly around here so that may be part of the issue. I'm on the ridge facing east towards NYC.
This might be a multipath issue. If the top of the ridge is close by to your west, you might be in a "shadow area."


OR


If you're using a preamp, your resulting signal for WNJB might be too strong for it to decode. That's right. Over amplified signals can cause fits for ATSC 1.0 tuners.
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post #19630 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 08:07 PM
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Can anyone explain this? I just moved my antenna (GE Signal Finder indoor antenna placed inside a window and pointed directly to the west) a few inches and ran a channel scan to see if I could get any new stations, and I was able to receive WKTY, WCAU, and WPHL. The thing is, I live in northwest Suffolk County, on Long Island. I’m using an indoor antenna that can’t even get WABC, WPIX, or WWOR, so why was I able to get Philly stations (albeit for only a minute, before all of the signals dropped out)?
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post #19631 of 20535 Old 09-15-2018, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by LIantenna585 View Post
Can anyone explain this? I just moved my antenna (GE Signal Finder indoor antenna placed inside a window and pointed directly to the west) a few inches and ran a channel scan to see if I could get any new stations, and I was able to receive WKTY, WCAU, and WPHL. The thing is, I live in northwest Suffolk County, on Long Island. I’m using an indoor antenna that can’t even get WABC, WPIX, or WWOR, so why was I able to get Philly stations (albeit for only a minute, before all of the signals dropped out)?
This happens sometimes due to atmospheric conditions. It's called tropospheric ducting. I'm also receiving some Philly stations tonight.
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post #19632 of 20535 Old 09-16-2018, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
This might be a multipath issue. If the top of the ridge is close by to your west, you might be in a "shadow area."

That's pretty much my thought. I have trouble with radio stations from my west/southwest too. As an example, I can't pull in WDHA (105.5 from Morristown) at all from my house. But if I drive a half mile up to the other side of the ridge it comes in fine.
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post #19633 of 20535 Old 09-16-2018, 07:09 AM
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Nope, not an antenna issue. I receive WJLP (3), WABC (7), WPIX (11) all perfectly on VHF. I'm using an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna.

I'm confused. You are using an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna? So is it outdoors and are you using a rotor to change the direction? Or are you climbing the mast to do it? Or is it in your attic? How high is the antenna mounted?



Please explain how you expect to get 8.1 and also the NYC stations from your location?


Also please tell us what antenna you are using. Are you using preamps or amps with it?
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post #19634 of 20535 Old 09-16-2018, 04:26 PM
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Apologies for another random question — if anyone could point me to a more appropriate forum/site, that would be great — but does anyone know what programming is on WMBC subchannel 7? It just shows up as “63-7” on my TV, and the only time I’ve ever seen it broadcast anything but dead air was some E/I programs Saturday morning. WMBC and its subchannels have some bizarre wonder about them. (I’ve taken a liking to SinoVision.)
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post #19635 of 20535 Old 09-16-2018, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ansky212 View Post
That's pretty much my thought. I have trouble with radio stations from my west/southwest too. As an example, I can't pull in WDHA (105.5 from Morristown) at all from my house. But if I drive a half mile up to the other side of the ridge it comes in fine.
I'm almost at the top of the western ridge and Channel 8 (WNJN) comes in very strong . You're in the shadow of the mountain blocking western signals .
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post #19636 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 05:49 AM
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I'm almost at the top of the western ridge and Channel 8 (WNJN) comes in very strong . You're in the shadow of the mountain blocking western signals .

Please provide us with all of the details of your antenna setup and equipment and orientation so that we can make a valid comparison if Ansky212 ever provides the same detail.


There may be more at issue here than geography.
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post #19637 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 08:03 AM
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Please provide us with all of the details of your antenna setup and equipment and orientation so that we can make a valid comparison if Ansky212 ever provides the same detail.


There may be more at issue here than geography.
This is the antenna I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-O...70_&dpSrc=srch


Normally I have it pointed east towards NYC, but I went outside and rotated it to my southwest to see if WNJN would come in. I can only pull in about 13db of signal. Not enough to lock the channel. I don't use any preamps either. I have also tried several indoor antennas and those don't work either. As I mentioned previously, I can't receive radio stations from the southwest either (even outside in my car), so I'm not at all surprised this channel can't be received. It's just odd that the coverage map has me in the "easy indoor" area for this channel, and I can't even get it with an outdoor antenna.
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post #19638 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 08:50 AM
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I'm using an old Winegard Hi-VHF antenna with a channel 9 preamp from Jen Jenca . The antenna is aimed towards channel 9 in Allentown . I'm not interested in receiving Channel 8 (WNJN) as it is carried on my cable system . The Tivo signal meter shows channel 8 with a much stronger signal than channel 9 . The biggest factor is my location just below the apex on the western mountain ridge at about 520 ft . Several years ago when I had an FM radio in the house I could receive many Philadelphia FM stations . When you go down the eastern slope of the mountain and any chance of receiving those FM stations disappears . Philadelphia is towards the Southwest .
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post #19639 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 01:10 PM
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This is the antenna I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/RCA-Compact-O...70_&dpSrc=srch


Normally I have it pointed east towards NYC, but I went outside and rotated it to my southwest to see if WNJN would come in. I can only pull in about 13db of signal. Not enough to lock the channel. I don't use any preamps either. I have also tried several indoor antennas and those don't work either. As I mentioned previously, I can't receive radio stations from the southwest either (even outside in my car), so I'm not at all surprised this channel can't be received. It's just odd that the coverage map has me in the "easy indoor" area for this channel, and I can't even get it with an outdoor antenna.

So you have this antenna outside but you still have not provided all we need to know. Where is it outside? how is it mounted and how high up off the ground? Is it 10 feet off the ground or 40 feet? Makes a big difference for VHF especially when you have a small antenna like this one. This is not a very robust antenna and would not be useful for my location but it might work for you if you were willing to go out and rotate it when you want WNJB.


Which brings me back to even if you could get WNJB what were you going to do? Go outside and manually rotate it back and forth to the WNJB and NYC stations? There is not way you could ever receive WNJB with an antenna pointed to NYC.
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post #19640 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 01:10 PM
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Keep in mind the WNJB is 8.1 VHF and so you also need a decent VHF antenna to receive the broadcast. I doubt that rabbit ears or a MOHU leaf type antenna will work well. That may be your issue.
Rabbits ears are a decent VHF antenna. It could be necessary to adjust the length of the "ears" for each station whose VHF band signal is being viewed. MOHU leaf type antennas are relatively insensitive to VHF band singal.
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post #19641 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 01:17 PM
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Rabbits ears are a decent VHF antenna. It could be necessary to adjust the length of the "ears" for each station whose VHF band signal is being viewed. MOHU leaf type antennas are relatively insensitive to VHF band singal.

That's a funny one. Unless you live very close and have line of sight to the broadcasters rabbit ears are of no use.

I don't think many people can use them in most NJ counties beyond Bergen and Hudson.



I am only 30 miles away and have a dedicated outdoor medium duty 5 to 6 foot long VHF antenna and I have trouble with reception from NYC.


I could probably get WNJB 8.1 if I wanted to forgo the NYC stations. Not willing to do that.
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post #19642 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 02:15 PM
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That's a funny one. Unless you live very close and have line of sight to the broadcasters rabbit ears are of no use.
It is not funny to me. The only over-the-air station that I receive has its signal in the VHF band. The transmitting antenna is 38 miles from me. There is interfering terrain between me and the station. I receive the station using rabbit ears.

Before the 600MHz auction there were two closer stations with signals in the UHF band that I was able to receive with a UHF antenna. With that UHF antenna I do not receive the signal of the UHF station that is closer to me and in the same general direction of the VHF station.

Previously, there was a UHF band station with a transmitting antenna on the same tower as the VHF band station that I receive. I was never able to receive the signal of that UHF band station.

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post #19643 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Which brings me back to even if you could get WNJB what were you going to do? Go outside and manually rotate it back and forth to the WNJB and NYC stations? There is not way you could ever receive WNJB with an antenna pointed to NYC.
I really had no intention of watching WNJB. I already get WNET and WLIW anyway. This was more of just an experiment to see what I could pull in since the coverage map does not jive with reality.
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post #19644 of 20535 Old 09-17-2018, 06:13 PM
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Apologies for another random question — if anyone could point me to a more appropriate forum/site, that would be great — but does anyone know what programming is on WMBC subchannel 7? It just shows up as “63-7” on my TV, and the only time I’ve ever seen it broadcast anything but dead air was some E/I programs Saturday morning. WMBC and its subchannels have some bizarre wonder about them. (I’ve taken a liking to SinoVision.)
From what I have seen, it is just the occasional E/I programming. They had been using 63.2 for that, but moved to 63.7 since adding Quest. As for a more appropriate site, try the WMBC Program Guide. (No idea why they use 2013 in the URL, but it does bring up 2018 data.)

http://wmbctv.com/program-guides-201...gram-guide.pdf

Last edited by NYC; 09-17-2018 at 06:33 PM. Reason: additional info
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post #19645 of 20535 Old 09-20-2018, 03:01 PM
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I'm in progress of cutting the cord from fios tv (queens) but still looking to recover some cable channels (for my father in-law).

Is it possible to receive the OTB channel (Off Track Betting) over the air? According to OTB, it's on channel 23.2, which appears to be WXXA-TV in Albany. Probably a snowball's chance in hell trying to get a clear signal from Albany.

Another is Sino TV (channel 281 on FIOS, not to be confused with SinoVision, which can be received OTA). No idea if this is actually broadcast OTA, but perhaps it's in the west coast?

On a side note, I had saw some posts on tuning antennas for stations in different directions and mentioned solutions were rotating antennas, using an a-b switch, or combining multiple signals. Has anyone tried just connecting each antenna to separate hdhomerun devices, disable the channels each device so there is no overlap, and then simply let your viewing app transparently choose the correct device/antenna to view a channel?

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post #19646 of 20535 Old 09-20-2018, 05:55 PM
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I'm in progress of cutting the cord from fios tv (queens) but still looking to recover some cable channels (for my father in-law).

Is it possible to receive the OTB channel (Off Track Betting) over the air? According to OTB, it's on channel 23.2, which appears to be WXXA-TV in Albany. Probably a snowball's chance in hell trying to get a clear signal from Albany.
Albany is 150 miles from NYC. You have no chance whatsoever of pulling in a station from there. If you're still in need of other cable channels your best bet would be to look at some of the streaming services like Sling TV, DirectvNow, Philo, etc.
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post #19647 of 20535 Old 09-21-2018, 06:43 AM
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Years ago pre-digital I could receive wxxa fox23 out if Albany, NY using a long radio shack yagi u120 I believe, from Queens, NY. I was into dxing tv back then. I use AD 91xg roof mounted and I get pretty much everything, 91 channels including subs of course.
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post #19648 of 20535 Old 09-21-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by darkegg View Post
I found out my LED computer monitor on the floor below the attic is creating some interference on RF 8. The interference brings the signal quality just below the 50% mark (or around 50%) to make WNJB unwatchable. With the LED monitor turned off or in sleep mode, I can watch WNJB with some minor glitches. At this point, I'm not sure a bigger antenna will even help. I just need to go up higher away from all the household interference. VHF is a pain.
It could be the display's switching power supply makes noise.

I found plugging some devices into a UPS reduces the noise from the device.
I also found that using digital output cables (HDMI, displayport, DVI) instead of analog VGA reduces RFI. on receivers.
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post #19649 of 20535 Old 09-21-2018, 10:20 PM
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It could be the display's switching power supply makes noise.

I found plugging some devices into a UPS reduces the noise from the device.
I also found that using digital output cables (HDMI, displayport, DVI) instead of analog VGA reduces RFI. on receivers.
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I just tried plugging my monitor into my UPS but it didn't help. With the monitor turned on, SNQ is around 50% and lots of pixelation. Turned off, SNQ is near 60% and rare pixelation. I'm using displayport and a DVI-to-HDMI cable.

I'll be testing a bigger antenna in the future (I'm thinking Winegard HD7694P) once I have a good enough excuse. For example, when WJLP moves to 1WTC with increased power and I still can't watch it at night, that would be a good time to test out a new antenna. Incidentally, anyone know when WJLP is moving?
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post #19650 of 20535 Old 09-22-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by badbob001 View Post
I'm in progress of cutting the cord from fios tv (queens) but still looking to recover some cable channels (for my father in-law).

Is it possible to receive the OTB channel (Off Track Betting) over the air? According to OTB, it's on channel 23.2, which appears to be WXXA-TV in Albany. Probably a snowball's chance in hell trying to get a clear signal from Albany.

Another is Sino TV (channel 281 on FIOS, not to be confused with SinoVision, which can be received OTA). No idea if this is actually broadcast OTA, but perhaps it's in the west coast?

On a side note, I had saw some posts on tuning antennas for stations in different directions and mentioned solutions were rotating antennas, using an a-b switch, or combining multiple signals. Has anyone tried just connecting each antenna to separate hdhomerun devices, disable the channels each device so there is no overlap, and then simply let your viewing app transparently choose the correct device/antenna to view a channel?
Sino on fios 281 is KCNS-TV from San Francisco. OTB streams their stuff online but I'm guessing your father in law prefers to watch it on TV.
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