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post #20341 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 06:12 AM
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I use Channel Master for preamps and distro amps.
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post #20342 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 06:35 AM
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WNYW Update

Is FOX5 WNYW still operating at reduced power and from their temporary location on the WTC tower?
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post #20343 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 08:45 AM
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OK, I'll try to share the bit I know and what I've been able to glean from FCC files.

You can imagine it's been hectic with the Phase 4 Repack and Durst's reneging on
contracts it had with stations.

Fox was promised that both of its stations in the market, WNYW and WWOR would
be positioned on the Upper UHF Antenna (PEP 40). Not too long before Phase 4 came
into play, Durst informed Fox that it could no longer accommodate WNYW on PEP 40
for its new frequency Channel 27. Once again, Durst told a station that there wasn't
enough power available to transmit from PEP 40. Therefore, 27 would be transmitted
from the Lower UHF Antenna (PEP 96) - for this location, the FCC authorized an ERP of
92.8 kW.

Some stations have mentioned in their filings with the FCC that all UHF stations would
have to run at reduced power. WCBS had mentioned 60 days, that would be until
approximately Labor Day. Other stations have stated a longer time.

So, WNYW's current position on the mast is not temporary, this is its authorized home.

I haven't been able to see any filing showing the station is currently transmitting at
less than 92.8 kW.

Again, the combination of the Repack and Durst have made for a lot of contusion.
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post #20344 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 10:11 AM
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60 days would put the timeline in October.
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post #20345 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Useeme1234 View Post
60 days would put the timeline in October.
Don't understand.

If you're disputing the Labor Day date, here's WCBS's filing in July -

Completion on the main antenna combiner work is anticipated by Labor Day and CBS has
every motivation to begin using this antenna as soon as possible.
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post #20346 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 02:25 PM
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From changeover 8/1 60 days later puts in October? at the pace most contractors get about, most likely the end of calendar year is a bit realistic.
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post #20347 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Useeme1234 View Post
From changeover 8/1 60 days later puts in October? at the pace most contractors get about, most likely the end of calendar year is a bit realistic.
The work on the PEP 40 Combiner started before August 1st.

Unfortunately, an estimate of the end of year might be what we'll be facing.

The stations' STAs, when extraordinary circumstances are claimed, are usually good for 180 days
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post #20348 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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STAs are granted at standard intervals, usually 180 days unless they request a shorter one, it also gives them wiggle room if/when Durst causes more delays so they don't have to request another STA if they don't finish by that Labor day target.

These are the expiration dates for the current STAs, all 180 days from when they requested them towards the end of July/early August:
WCBS - 1/15/2020
WWOR/WRNN - 1/25/2020
WLIW - 1/25/2020
WPXN - 1/25/2020
WNJU/WNBC - 2/2/2020


WFUT/WXTV is operating on a STA at Empire that also expires on 1/25/2020, but that's so they can reconfigure the antenna on the mast to take advantage of the vacated space from stations that moved to 1WTC. When it's done, Empire will only have WFUT/WXTV, WABC, WPIX, WDVB/WTBY, the DTS facility for WEDW/WZME and the bulk of NYC's FM stations. It will also still have the DTS facility for WMBC, although they have a pending application requesting to leave both Empire and Montclair Heights and move solely to 1WTC on a seperate directional antenna about 100ft lower than the PEPs.

Last edited by KyL416; 08-16-2019 at 03:36 PM.
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post #20349 of 20565 Old 08-16-2019, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post
OK, I'll try to share the bit I know and what I've been able to glean from FCC files.

You can imagine it's been hectic with the Phase 4 Repack and Durst's reneging on
contracts it had with stations.

Fox was promised that both of its stations in the market, WNYW and WWOR would
be positioned on the Upper UHF Antenna (PEP 40). Not too long before Phase 4 came
into play, Durst informed Fox that it could no longer accommodate WNYW on PEP 40
for its new frequency Channel 27. Once again, Durst told a station that there wasn't
enough power available to transmit from PEP 40. Therefore, 27 would be transmitted
from the Lower UHF Antenna (PEP 96) - for this location, the FCC authorized an ERP of
92.8 kW.

Some stations have mentioned in their filings with the FCC that all UHF stations would
have to run at reduced power. WCBS had mentioned 60 days, that would be until
approximately Labor Day. Other stations have stated a longer time.

So, WNYW's current position on the mast is not temporary, this is its authorized home.

I haven't been able to see any filing showing the station is currently transmitting at
less than 92.8 kW.

Again, the combination of the Repack and Durst have made for a lot of contusion.
Okay, thanks for the update on WNYW. Looks where I am with my summer cottage in Sussex County I have no hope of receiving FOX5. I do get WCBS, WNBC, and WABC rock solid with my CM4228 Antenna.
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post #20350 of 20565 Old 08-17-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyL416 View Post
It will also still have the DTS facility for WMBC, although they have a pending application requesting to leave both Empire and Montclair Heights and move solely to 1WTC on a seperate directional antenna about 100ft lower than the PEPs.
The WTC application for WMBC has been in a pending status for like 2 years. I'd be curious to know what has been holding that up.
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post #20351 of 20565 Old 08-17-2019, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by EF9500 View Post
Whats everyone here using for amplifiers? I have been using a RCA TVPRAMP1Z Preamplifier for a few years. Works good for me, as it does both u, and v. Well it crapped out, I bought another, and after 3 weeks, the v crapped out already I guess they don't make things the way they used to.
Channel Master Spartan 3 mast mount preamp. Don't think they make them any longer.
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post #20352 of 20565 Old 08-17-2019, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ansky212 View Post
The WTC application for WMBC has been in a pending status for like 2 years. I'd be curious to know what has been holding that up.
Since they're not changing their RF number they got put on the backburner in favor of the signal maximization applications for stations who are changing their RF number as part of the repack. A lot of similar applications are still pending.
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post #20353 of 20565 Old 08-19-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyL416 View Post
WFUT/WXTV is operating on a STA at Empire that also expires on 1/25/2020, but that's so they can reconfigure the antenna on the mast to take advantage of the vacated space from stations that moved to 1WTC. When it's done, Empire will only have WFUT/WXTV, WABC, WPIX, WDVB/WTBY, the DTS facility for WEDW/WZME and the bulk of NYC's FM stations. It will also still have the DTS facility for WMBC, although they have a pending application requesting to leave both Empire and Montclair Heights and move solely to 1WTC on a seperate directional antenna about 100ft lower than the PEPs.
Is there an estimate for when WEDW will transmit from Empire?
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post #20354 of 20565 Old 08-19-2019, 02:15 PM
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WEDW's latest filings haven't indicated a specific timeline. Just that the DTS approval was granted too late (thanks to WJLP's pointless objections) so they couldn't start until after the 8/2 deadline. There's also no indication of how they plan to do it, like if they're going to have seperate crews working at Empire and Trumbull or if they're going to focus on getting one site finished first and then send a crew to the other site.

The construction permit for the DTS facility expires on 1/29/2020, but they could easily get an extension if they don't finish by that date since tower crews are already being stretched to their limits with the repack phases in full swing. The semi-good news is that they will be using a seperate antenna that is lower than the shared antennas used by the TV and FM stations, so it shouldn't be a repeat of the mess that is 1WTC.

Last edited by KyL416; 08-19-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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post #20355 of 20565 Old 08-19-2019, 08:12 PM
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Wjlp

What power level is WJLP currently operating at? Recently, I have been able to receive the station with my CM4228 antenna, which I thought was not possible with RF channel 3.
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post #20356 of 20565 Old 08-19-2019, 08:34 PM
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WJLP along with WDPN and WACP in Philly all boosted their power back in June as part of a mutual interference agreement:
https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....7&site=1&map=Y

WJLP was supposed to move to 1WTC by the agreed upon June date, but because of that mess with Durst they couldn't, so they're operating on a STA with increased power from 4 Times Square to give them the coverage area they would have had if they were at 1WTC. They went from a 65.4 mile contour to a 73.9 mile contour and when they move further south to 1WTC they will have a 72.1 mile contour.

Last edited by KyL416; 08-19-2019 at 08:46 PM.
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post #20357 of 20565 Old 08-19-2019, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisHPC View Post
What power level is WJLP currently operating at? Recently, I have been able to receive the station with my CM4228 antenna, which I thought was not possible with RF channel 3.
I've also notices a steady improvement in WJLP signal quality (see here). It has come to a point where WJLP is watchable again with minor pixelation. The only explanation I can think of is this is due to changes in foliage around my area (I'm near Forest Park), but we're in the middle of summer and leaves haven't started falling yet, so I have no idea. It does look like a seasonal trend however.
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post #20358 of 20565 Old 08-20-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by darkegg View Post
I've also notices a steady improvement in WJLP signal quality (see here). It has come to a point where WJLP is watchable again with minor pixelation. The only explanation I can think of is this is due to changes in foliage around my area (I'm near Forest Park), but we're in the middle of summer and leaves haven't started falling yet, so I have no idea. It does look like a seasonal trend however.
I have always had pixelation problems on WJLP. I think it's just the fact that VHF-Low is more susceptible to interference. It does seem that the main 33-1 channel has been better lately. Although I usually watch Escape on 33-4 and that always has a lot of pixelation. I noticed the same amount of pixelation when I used to watch this channel on cable, so there may just be something inherently wrong with the processing on that particular channel. The fact that WJLP crams in about 10 subchannels probably doesn't help matters either.
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post #20359 of 20565 Old 08-20-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by darkegg View Post
I've also noticed a steady improvement in WJLP signal quality. The only explanation I can think of is this is due to changes in foliage around my area (I'm near Forest Park), but we're in the middle of summer and leaves haven't started falling yet, so I have no idea. It does look like a seasonal trend however.
They boosted power (see above thread). Trees/leaves generally only affect signals on the UHF band. VHF has its own issues.
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post #20360 of 20565 Old 08-20-2019, 07:48 PM
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They boosted power (see above thread). Trees/leaves generally only affect signals on the UHF band. VHF has its own issues.
I use to be a cabbie years back, that area by forest park, going south towards jamaica ave.
has environmental interference, always got radio breakup near there. Also you got huge hill on woodhaven ave to overcome.
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post #20361 of 20565 Old 08-22-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post
OK, I'll try to share the bit I know and what I've been able to glean from FCC files.

You can imagine it's been hectic with the Phase 4 Repack and Durst's reneging on
contracts it had with stations.

Fox was promised that both of its stations in the market, WNYW and WWOR would
be positioned on the Upper UHF Antenna (PEP 40). Not too long before Phase 4 came
into play, Durst informed Fox that it could no longer accommodate WNYW on PEP 40
for its new frequency Channel 27. Once again, Durst told a station that there wasn't
enough power available to transmit from PEP 40. Therefore, 27 would be transmitted
from the Lower UHF Antenna (PEP 96) - for this location, the FCC authorized an ERP of
92.8 kW.

Some stations have mentioned in their filings with the FCC that all UHF stations would
have to run at reduced power. WCBS had mentioned 60 days, that would be until
approximately Labor Day. Other stations have stated a longer time.

So, WNYW's current position on the mast is not temporary, this is its authorized home.

I haven't been able to see any filing showing the station is currently transmitting at
less than 92.8 kW.

Again, the combination of the Repack and Durst have made for a lot of contusion.

SK, Thank you for the update, it is certainly more information than I have gotten from Fox5. Let me ask what are probably some really dumb questions. (As I mentioned earlier, after the August 1st re-scan I have all of the major channels except Fox, which I now barely receive with weak signal strength that is very erratic. I am about 30 miles north of the ESB and 1WTC, I use a big Winegard Yagi antenna and before 8/1 received all major channels with very good PQ). Are PEP 40 and PEP 96 just names for the upper and lower antenna or do the number mean something about the antenna? How much lower is the lower antenna from the upper antenna? If the new position of the Fox antenna is the cause of my problems with Fox is there anything I can do on my end to improve reception? Is there any realistic hope that Fox will be able to restore its broadcast signal to what it was before the rescan?

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post #20362 of 20565 Old 08-22-2019, 02:49 PM
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SK, Thank you for the update, it is certainly more information than I have gotten from Fox5. Let me ask what are probably some really dumb questions. (As I mentioned earlier, after the August 1st re-scan I have all of the major channels except Fox, which I now barely receive with weak signal strength that is very erratic. I am about 30 miles north of the ESB and 1WTC, I use a big Winegard Yagi antenna and before 8/1 received all major channels with very good PQ). Are PEP 40 and PEP 96 just names for the upper and lower antenna or do the number mean something about the antenna? How much lower is the lower antenna from the upper antenna? If the new position of the Fox antenna is the cause of my problems with Fox is there anything I can do on my end to improve reception? Is there any realistic hope that Fox will be able to restore its broadcast signal to what it was before the rescan?
First, I'm far from being an RF expert, I'll leave that up to the professionals on the Forum.
So, I really can't offer any real guidance to help you with your reception problem.

But, I can fill you in on the UHF antennas on the 1WTC mast.

PEP40 stands for the 40 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1726' Above Ground Level.

PEP96 stands for the 96 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1646' Above Ground Level.

Hope this bit of information is of help.
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post #20363 of 20565 Old 08-22-2019, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post
First, I'm far from being an RF expert, I'll leave that up to the professionals on the Forum.
So, I really can't offer any real guidance to help you with your reception problem.

But, I can fill you in on the UHF antennas on the 1WTC mast.

PEP40 stands for the 40 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1726' Above Ground Level.

PEP96 stands for the 96 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1646' Above Ground Level.

Hope this bit of information is of help.
Are all 40/96 panels transmitting all of the signals at once, or are individual panels single antennas for one station ?

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post #20364 of 20565 Old 08-22-2019, 08:12 PM
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Are all 40/96 panels transmitting all of the signals at once, or are individual panels single antennas for one station ?
Each of the antennas is fed by its own Combiner - this allows multiple stations
to use the same entire antenna.
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post #20365 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post
First, I'm far from being an RF expert, I'll leave that up to the professionals on the Forum.
So, I really can't offer any real guidance to help you with your reception problem.

But, I can fill you in on the UHF antennas on the 1WTC mast.

PEP40 stands for the 40 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1726' Above Ground Level.

PEP96 stands for the 96 panels that make up this antenna. It's located 1646' Above Ground Level.

Hope this bit of information is of help.

SK, This is very helpful, however, also very perplexing. There is an 80' difference between the upper and lower antennas. Given that I am about 32 miles from 1WTC it is very hard to understand how a vertical shift of about 0.03 degrees in the angle between my reception point and the broadcast point could lead to multi-path reception problems. I receive signals from the top antenna on 1WTC with very good PQ, and I also receive signals for the ESB ( a vertical shift of about 0.1 degrees from the top antenna on 1WTC) with very good PQ. I have tried to contact Fox5 both by email and by phone with no response back from Fox5. I wish they were more forthcoming about their broadcast quality on the lower antenna.

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post #20366 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 03:53 PM
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SK, This is very helpful, however, also very perplexing. There is an 80' difference between the upper and lower antennas. Given that I am about 32 miles from 1WTC it is very hard to understand how a vertical shift of about 0.03 degrees in the angle between my reception point and the broadcast point could lead to multi-path reception problems. I receive signals from the top antenna on 1WTC with very good PQ, and I also receive signals for the ESB ( a vertical shift of about 0.1 degrees from the top antenna on 1WTC) with very good PQ. I have tried to contact Fox5 both by email and by phone with no response back from Fox5. I wish they were more forthcoming about their broadcast quality on the lower antenna.
You're not going to get a response because I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with their signal. I'm 10 miles outside the city and I get them at 100% signal strength. Multipath is caused by localized issues in your specific area, not the broadcast transmission itself. Did you at least try to move your antenna around to see if it had any effect on reception?
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post #20367 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 04:45 PM
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I put Pleasantville, NY in the search at RabbitEars, it shows poor reception for most of the NYC UHF stations and fair reception for some of the NYC VHF stations, although that's from the center of town, with varying terrain your location likely has different results, especially in the more hilly parts of the town.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=6042

Can you do a search here with your specific location and link it to us so we can get a better idea of the situation where you are?
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


Also the PQ on digital is all or nothing, with breakup if you have dropouts due to weak reception. This isn't analog where your PQ changes based on signal strength and distance. As long as the reception is strong enough to decode the 1s and 0s, even someone 60+ miles away will have the same picture quality as someone in the 5 boroughs.

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post #20368 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 05:10 PM
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BTW, while fooling around with the search thing, I think I found the problem that some people in NJ are having. NJTV's Belvidere translator is also on RF 27, and there's overlap in portions of western NJ:
https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....0&cir=&circen=

For DennisHPC, when I put in Hawthorne Lake in the search, it shows the NJTV translator coming in slightly stronger than WNYW, which is enough for them to cancel eachother out:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=6049
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post #20369 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 10:49 PM
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You're not going to get a response because I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong with their signal. I'm 10 miles outside the city and I get them at 100% signal strength. Multipath is caused by localized issues in your specific area, not the broadcast transmission itself. Did you at least try to move your antenna around to see if it had any effect on reception?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyL416 View Post
I put Pleasantville, NY in the search at RabbitEars, it shows poor reception for most of the NYC UHF stations and fair reception for some of the NYC VHF stations, although that's from the center of town, with varying terrain your location likely has different results, especially in the more hilly parts of the town.
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=6042

Can you do a search here with your specific location and link it to us so we can get a better idea of the situation where you are?
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php


Also the PQ on digital is all or nothing, with breakup if you have dropouts due to weak reception. This isn't analog where your PQ changes based on signal strength and distance. As long as the reception is strong enough to decode the 1s and 0s, even someone 60+ miles away will have the same picture quality as someone in the 5 boroughs.

Guys, I realize you are trying to be helpful, but you need to listen to what I am saying. I have been OTA in the exact same location since 2012. I have had excellent reception except for a period when CBS ran at 1/2 power and then I lost reception if it rained hard. I had excellent reception before the recan and have excellent reception after the rescan except for Fox5 which has weak and erratic signal strength after the rescan. ansky, I realize the HDTV is an all or nothing kind of thing, If Fox5 hits about 40% signal strength I get good reception, thus if I were close enough that Fox signal strength was 60% to 100% I would not notice any problems. You say that mutipath is due to localize issues at my location. My localized situation did not magically change when I did the rescan. Finally, I did rotate my antenna about +/- 5 degrees from is usual setting (see more about this below) and it did not make any difference (although I will try it again no that weather conditions have improved).



KyL, It is a good thing that rabbitears is not a very good application or I would not have any reception at all. Here are some specifics. As I said I have been getting very good reception from NYC for 7 years and I do not have any seasonal issues with reception even though there are a lot of trees where I live. Here are some specifics that may help you understand my location better. I live on a south facing hill and I estimate that my large yagi antenna is about 400 feet above sea level and about 30 feet above the ground at my location. The straight line distance from my antenna to the ESB is 28.9 miles and 31.7 miles to 1WTC. From my antenna the position of the ESB and 1WTC subtend an arc of 0.9 degrees. I am almost exactly due north of Manhattan. If I were to rotate my antenna more than +/- 10 degrees (or maybe a little bit more) I would start to loose signal strength because the yagi is very directional.

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post #20370 of 20565 Old 08-24-2019, 11:12 PM
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Your location didn't change, what did change is the power of the stations because of the Durst mess resulting in the 1WTC UHF stations operating at reduced power after August 1st. I would just wait it out until the work is done at 1WTC, hopefully by Labor Day. It's possible WNYW is at reduced power too but they forgot to file for a STA for it since they also had to file to change their final facility to the lower antenna at the last minute.

RabbitEars is a very good application, the webmaster Trip is a frequent user here and is heavily involved with the repack in an official matter as part of his day job. It's still a work in progress but it's meant to be a replacement for TVFool who's stuck on an outdated database and was never updated to handle the repack since the webmaster vanished. You just need to enter specific information about your location and antenna height for it to make its predictions. The default location for Pleasantville is one of the more lower portions of town. If I move the point to an area with an elevation similar to yours the results are better and in the "Good" range, which is why I asked for a more specific search:
https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...&study_id=6075

At that elevation I can see that some of the reduced power stations are weaker compared to what levels they have when I switch to the post-repack search list that uses their final facilities. If WNYW were at full power it should be coming in better than a bunch of the stations you do get.

Last edited by KyL416; 08-24-2019 at 11:35 PM.
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