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post #20791 of 20826 Old 05-21-2020, 02:43 PM
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There was some decent boost activity late last night and early this morning. Depending on where you are it might be enough to wipe out local signals, especially ones that are co-channel like WPIX/WBRE, WNET/WYOU, WPXN/WTIC/WSWB/WPPX and WCBS/WFSB. That has nothing to do with the repack though, they've all been co-channel since 2009.

As for not getting Philly during boost conditions like you did pre-repack, that's likely because many of their stations are currently at reduced power because of various issues you can find out about in the Philly thread. KYW, WPSG, WPPX and WTXF are all currently at reduced power, so it would take some extreme boost conditions to pick them up that far right now.
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post #20792 of 20826 Old 05-21-2020, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
NBC sold in New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago. Hartford and Washington were not owned by NBC at the time of the auction.

- Trip
Ack! I forgot that the incentive auction ended back in April 2017. It took almost a year and a half before the repacking actually started, so that's where I goofed up. NBCUniversal swooped in to buy the Hartford and Washington Telemundo stations (and others) shortly after the auction closed.
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post #20793 of 20826 Old 05-21-2020, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Ack! I forgot that the incentive auction ended back in April 2017. It took almost a year and a half before the repacking actually started, so that's where I goofed up. NBCUniversal swooped in to buy the Hartford and Washington Telemundo stations (and others) shortly after the auction closed.
Those stations used to be part of ZGS Communications. NBC bought them in a deal right after the auction. I know because the Hartford station has a satellite in the Springfield market where I live.

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post #20794 of 20826 Old 05-22-2020, 06:20 PM
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Those stations used to be part of ZGS Communications. NBC bought them in a deal right after the auction. I know because the Hartford station has a satellite in the Springfield market where I live.
Yes, I think I only received the Hartford ZGS owned station no more than a handful of times. IIRC, ZGS owned a boatload of LPTV stations going back to the 1990s. I guess the repack was a good time to sell them.
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post #20795 of 20826 Old 05-22-2020, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
Yes, I think I only received the Hartford ZGS owned station no more than a handful of times. IIRC, ZGS owned a boatload of LPTV stations going back to the 1990s. I guess the repack was a good time to sell them.
On top of that, most if not all of their stations were Telemundo affiliates IIRC. They'd even sold a few stations directly to NBCU beforehand. Really, selling the whole lot to the network directly was the most logical choice.

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post #20796 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 06:37 PM
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Today, I believe Hartford Telemundo is a subchannel of WVIT-TV (NBC) channel 30. I think it mapped as "19-1" when I last checked. Prior to that, the area Telemundo station was low power channel 50 and W13BF channel 13 well before that.
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post #20797 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KEVINL71 View Post
Today, I believe Hartford Telemundo is a subchannel of WVIT-TV (NBC) channel 30. I think it mapped as "19-1" when I last checked.
Even though it's spectrum sharing on WVIT's signal, it's still the seperately licensed WRDM-CD. They had to change their major number to 19 because keeping virtual 50 on WVIT's signal would have overlapped with WVVH-CD in the Hamptons:
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...615168702503c3

WVVH-CD has since moved to virtual 18 post-repack since it was cleared after WUVN gave up their full power signal in the auction in favor of spectrum sharing with their UniMas sister station WUTH-CD, which doesn't reach portions of the twin forks like WUVN's signal did.

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post #20798 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 06:48 PM
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Ah! Didn't know about Long Island!

What about WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 of New Haven? I know they're with WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8, likely on 8-2 or 8-3 but show as "59-1".
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post #20799 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 07:00 PM
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59-x is still the seperately licensed WCTX, just how 4-x is still the seperately licensed WNBC even though it's sharing with WNJU, 41-x is still the seperately licensed WXTV even though it's sharing with WFUT, 43-x is still the seperately licensed WZME even though it's sharing with WEDW, 48-x is still the seperately licensed WRNN even though it's sharing with WWOR, 50-x is still the sperately licensed WNJN even though it's sharing with WNJB, and 54-x is still the seperately licensed WTBY even though it's sharing with WDVB-CD.

Unlike Telemundo Hartford, which was a LP signal joining a full power singal, WCTX was already a full power signal and also reached much of Central and Eastern LI. So they didn't have to change virtual numbers because there's no other 59-x's in the vicinity.

In NYC several LD/CD stations also had to change virtual numbers when they started spectrum sharing with full power signals:
After it started sharing with WNET, WNDT-CD moved from virtual 17 to virtual 14 because of WPHL in Philly and some other LP signals around the NYC DMA
After it started sharing with WJLP, WNWT-LD moved from virtual 51, was assigned virtual 18, attempted to move to virtual 6 instead (despite it conflicting with WPVI), and then settled on virtual 37 because of WTVE in Reading.

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post #20800 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Gotta remember, the FCC requires 1.0 simulcasts for five years. WNBC/WNJU has too big of a payload for 1.0 sharing. PQ would go to hell. Advertisers and viewers would balk.

I so miss a full unshared ATSC signal...when the marketers and suits realized they had room for other channels, it destroyed the USP of ATSC, and now one main channel and two-three channels of waste.

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post #20801 of 20826 Old 05-23-2020, 07:43 PM
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I so miss a full unshared ATSC signal...when the marketers and suits realized they had room for other channels, it destroyed the USP of ATSC, and now one main channel and two-three channels of waste.
Don't blame the marketers and suits for the addition of subchannels.

I was told by an executive at WCBS that it was forced to add a subchannel by the
government - "Use It or Lose it!"

WCBS engineers were so proud of the station's picture quality - NFL games looked spectacular!

Then the station succumbed.
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post #20802 of 20826 Old 05-24-2020, 07:47 AM
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I was told by an executive at WCBS that it was forced to add a subchannel by the government - "Use It or Lose it!"
Lose what to whom? I don't recall the FCC ever mandating subchannel adoption.

I was with CBS Detroit at the time. Corporate wanted to keep subchannels off of O&Os in the beginning, but as subchannels were added by competing stations, our stations found themselves at a competitive disadvantage. First, the other stations in town were getting additional revenue from leasing the subchannels to the diginets. Second, those same stations were giving away the local avails on those diginets as value-added spots to clients. Sort of a "buy this schedule on our main channel and we'll throw in a hundred free spots on the diginet." That's hard to beat on the street if you're selling advertising. Every other station is offering freebies you cannot. Every other station is getting 1-3 revenue streams you aren't. Can't charge more for picture quality as PQ has never driven ratings. Advertisers are only interested in eyeballs and free stuff. CBS O&O's really had no choice.

The good news is some have resisted. KCBS, for example, just has one subchannel, leaving the main looking really good on a slightly older encoder. Other affiliates have upgraded to more recent encoders which look much, much better. WFLA (NBC) in Tampa has 2HD and 3SD. The encoder is set to give WFLA main more bandwidth on the weekends when there's sports. SNF looks better on WFLA now than it did when it was 1HD and 2SD on the old encoder.

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post #20803 of 20826 Old 05-24-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Lose what to whom? I don't recall the FCC ever mandating subchannel adoption.

I was with CBS Detroit at the time. Corporate wanted to keep subchannels off of O&Os in the beginning, but as subchannels were added by competing stations, our stations found themselves at a competitive disadvantage. First, the other stations in town were getting additional revenue from leasing the subchannels to the diginets. Second, those same stations were giving away the local avails on those diginets as value-added spots to clients. Sort of a "buy this schedule on our main channel and we'll throw in a hundred free spots on the diginet." That's hard to beat on the street if you're selling advertising. Every other station is offering freebies you cannot. Every other station is getting 1-3 revenue streams you aren't. Can't charge more for picture quality as PQ has never driven ratings. Advertisers are only interested in eyeballs and free stuff. CBS O&O's really had no choice.

The good news is some have resisted. KCBS, for example, just has one subchannel, leaving the main looking really good on a slightly older encoder. Other affiliates have upgraded to more recent encoders which look much, much better. WFLA (NBC) in Tampa has 2HD and 3SD. The encoder is set to give WFLA main more bandwidth on the weekends when there's sports. SNF looks better on WFLA now than it did when it was 1HD and 2SD on the old encoder.

Doc
Unfortunately everyone in the NY DMA has multiple sub channels....at least two, some have up to six or more. May be moot though, my streaming signals look pretty good, on a 5e connection to the router....

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post #20804 of 20826 Old 05-24-2020, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KEVINL71 View Post
What about WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 of New Haven? I know they're with WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8, likely on 8-2 or 8-3 but show as "59-1".

WCTX is a channel sharing guest of WTNH. The signal broadcast by WTNH in RF 10 contains four physical TV subchannels: 10.3, 10.4, 10.5. 10.6. The first two are the subchannels of WTNH and are virtual channel numbers 8-1 and 8-2. The second two are the subchannels of WCTX and are virtual channel numbers 59-1 and 59-2.

See https://rabbitears.info/market.php?r...n=wtnh#station .

Before WCTX became a channel sharing guest of WTNH, 8-3 was the virtual channel number of the SD video version of the primary programming of WTNH.

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post #20805 of 20826 Old 05-24-2020, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Lose what to whom? I don't recall the FCC ever mandating subchannel adoption.
In 2011, FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski made news by comparing the CBS o&o's not having subchannels to transmitting "empty boxcars" of information. So even though the FCC didn't officially mandate subchannel adoption, when the FCC Chairman says you're underutilizing your bandwidth, you tend to listen. This was also at the time when Genachowski was contemplating the need for a second repack. That is what SnellKrell was alluding to.
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post #20806 of 20826 Old 05-25-2020, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian in CT View Post
In 2011, FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski made news by comparing the CBS o&o's not having subchannels to transmitting "empty boxcars" of information. So even though the FCC didn't officially mandate subchannel adoption, when the FCC Chairman says you're underutilizing your bandwidth, you tend to listen. This was also at the time when Genachowski was contemplating the need for a second repack. That is what SnellKrell was alluding to.
That's a far cry from "government mandated." I'd LOVE to see the FCC try to yank licenses from CBS O&Os for not having subchannels. That'd have been fun. I do know that O&Os weren't ordered to add subs. It was up to each station's GM. WCBS opted for the free money. Simple as that.

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post #20807 of 20826 Old 05-25-2020, 06:26 AM
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Unfortunately everyone in the NY DMA has multiple sub channels....at least two, some have up to six or more. May be moot though, my streaming signals look pretty good, on a 5e connection to the router....
I was shocked when I first moved here as to how compressed and awful the picture quality is compared to where I moved from. WABC looks like upscaled DVDs.

On the other hand, my mythtv recordings are half the size now, so more free drive space....

Last edited by DrDon; 05-25-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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post #20808 of 20826 Old 05-26-2020, 02:28 PM
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House in the woods

With the leaves out I was thinking of trying my "antenna project" again. Im 34 miles nw of NYC but lots of trees..think tvfool said I was 2 edge.

Here is my rabbitears report: (doh need to get my post count up..will add once I do that).



House is in the woods surrounds by trees. Last year I did try an ANT 751 and if I placed it 4 feet up in one spot in the driveway it was able to pull in NY CBS,ABC,NBC,FOX, PIX and PBS with FOX and PBS being very marginal. Clearly I need a bigger antenna.

Would folks here recommend something like the Winegard HD7694P or should I just go as big as possible
ie... HD 7698P or HD8200. With no lo-VHF stations I did not think I needed massive width but I do need more gain. Location I thought would be gable mount about 30 feet up and point SW 130 ish degrees toward NYC.

Thanks for any input. I do not know anyone in the area who has OTA reception anymore.
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post #20809 of 20826 Old 05-26-2020, 02:44 PM
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You can give us the RabbitEars study_id number from the URL and we can find it.

Depending on when you tried last year, many of the NYC stations were still at reduced power while the post-repack work was being completed at 1WTC.

As for VHF-lo, it really depends what you want. WJLP is on RF 3 and is the only source in your area for MeTV, CourtTV Mystery, Grit, NewsNet and a local weather channel, so if you want any of those you'll need a VHF-lo capable antenna. You should also be able to get the low power W22EW-D after it returns to air on RF 5 from a tower in Grove Park, but it's unknown what they will carry. The other NYC area VHF-lo stations are low power signals that don't reach out that far.

Last edited by KyL416; 05-26-2020 at 02:53 PM.
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Originally Posted by KyL416 View Post
You can give us the RabbitEars study_id number from the URL and we can find it.

Depending on when you tried last year, many of the NYC stations were still at reduced power while the post-repack work was being completed at 1WTC.

As for VHF-lo, it really depends what you want. WJLP is on RF 3 and is the only source in your area for MeTV, CourtTV Mystery, Grit, NewsNet and a local weather channel, so if you want any of those you'll need a VHF-lo capable antenna. You should also be able to get the low power W22EW-D after it returns to air on RF 5 from a tower in Grove Park, but it's unknown what they will carry. The other NYC area VHF-lo stations are low power signals that don't reach out that far.
Thanks so much ...was not originally interested in any lo VHF channels.. interesting..

Rabbit ears study_id=94866
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post #20811 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RMinNJ View Post
With the leaves out I was thinking of trying my "antenna project" again. Im 34 miles nw of NYC but lots of trees..think tvfool said I was 2 edge.

Here is my rabbitears report: (doh need to get my post count up..will add once I do that).



House is in the woods surrounds by trees. Last year I did try an ANT 751 and if I placed it 4 feet up in one spot in the driveway it was able to pull in NY CBS,ABC,NBC,FOX, PIX and PBS with FOX and PBS being very marginal. Clearly I need a bigger antenna.

Would folks here recommend something like the Winegard HD7694P or should I just go as big as possible
ie... HD 7698P or HD8200. With no lo-VHF stations I did not think I needed massive width but I do need more gain. Location I thought would be gable mount about 30 feet up and point SW 130 ish degrees toward NYC.

Thanks for any input. I do not know anyone in the area who has OTA reception anymore.

Here are some important things to consider. Are you in a valley? Are you on the wrong side of a hill? Are you on top of a hill with clear line of site to the broadcast towers or are there hills in the way? Your answer to these makes a big difference.



As for trees: are the tops of the trees with the leaves going to be right in front of your antenna or are the tops with the leaves well above your antenna? Makes a big difference!
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post #20812 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 05:21 AM
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Here are some important things to consider. Are you in a valley? Are you on the wrong side of a hill? Are you on top of a hill with clear line of site to the broadcast towers or are there hills in the way? Your answer to these makes a big difference.

As for trees: are the tops of the trees with the leaves going to be right in front of your antenna or are the tops with the leaves well above your antenna? Makes a big difference!
LenL, all,

Thanks.. I am not in a valley.. Elevation is 2227 feet according to elevation finder ..my last TVfool report put me at 2 edge though. Trees are everywhere around me and an antenna cannot get above them. LOS..hah..only if I climb the tallest tree in my yard but it is so far from the house.
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post #20813 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 05:49 AM
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https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps


This is a much better source than TVFOOL.
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post #20814 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 05:50 AM
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A few years from now ATSC 3.0 will bring much improved reception to over the air broadcast and your antenna will pick up much more!
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Thanks so much ...was not originally interested in any lo VHF channels.. interesting..

Rabbit ears study_id=94866
Here's your link: https://www.rabbitears.info/searchma...study_id=94866

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https://www.fcc.gov/media/engineering/dtvmaps

This is a much better source than TVFOOL.
It's better than TVFool, but quite honestly, you'll get a more accurate answer from the RabbitEars Signal Search Map in many cases.

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need to get my post count up..will add once I do that).
Or, perhaps read the sticky post that says "read before posting." There's a reason we put those up there: to save you time. Might go back and have a look at it.
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post #20817 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 06:22 AM
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/url]



It's better than TVFool, but quite honestly, you'll get a more accurate answer from the RabbitEars Signal Search Map in many cases.

- Trip
LenL, Trip,

Thanks! My FCC report shows 2 moderate stations and the rest I desire are weak. I was able to get all my desired stations with my testing with an RCA ANT751 last year but learned 2 things;

a.) I definitely need a larger antenna than that... FOX (uhf 27?) and PBS (vhf 13) were the weakest and hardest to get.

b.) Placement is unknown,.. I think I may have been getting better reception near the ground (ground reflection? under the trees?) ...it was hard to tell. Wish I have tried it higher on the roof.
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post #20818 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 07:30 AM
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LenL, Trip,

Thanks! My FCC report shows 2 moderate stations and the rest I desire are weak. I was able to get all my desired stations with my testing with an RCA ANT751 last year but learned 2 things;

a.) I definitely need a larger antenna than that... FOX (uhf 27?) and PBS (vhf 13) were the weakest and hardest to get.

b.) Placement is unknown,.. I think I may have been getting better reception near the ground (ground reflection? under the trees?) ...it was hard to tell. Wish I have tried it higher on the roof.
You mentioned being "2 Edge". As a general rule you are going to have a very difficult time with reliable OTA reception. Your antenna will need to be very large, very high up, and you will likely need an amplifier.
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post #20819 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 12:59 PM
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Keep in mind that when you go to any of these sites you are getting estimates that are not 100% reliable.


From my experience I have found that stations that were supposed to be not so well received I get strong signals and others that were supposed to be good are not!


So just because it may say 2 edge do not assume it is correct! Do not assume any of the results are completely accurate. Use the results only as a guide.



The best thing to do is find the right antenna for your location and if needed add a pre amp or a distro amp. Mount it in a good location and while high is good you are already very high up. So you may need to find a sweet spot.


I have relatives in Warwick and Florida NY who get NY broadcasts. So from where you are you should be successful with the right equipment!
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post #20820 of 20826 Old 05-27-2020, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post
Keep in mind that when you go to any of these sites you are getting estimates that are not 100% reliable.


From my experience I have found that stations that were supposed to be not so well received I get strong signals and others that were supposed to be good are not!


So just because it may say 2 edge do not assume it is correct! Do not assume any of the results are completely accurate. Use the results only as a guide.



The best thing to do is find the right antenna for your location and if needed add a pre amp or a distro amp. Mount it in a good location and while high is good you are already very high up. So you may need to find a sweet spot.


I have relatives in Warwick and Florida NY who get NY broadcasts. So from where you are you should be successful with the right equipment!
LenL, thanks so much. Yes, I am trying to get the NY metro stations and I live 34 miles from the transmitters. One
would think Im in their broadcast area but Im finding I need to do a lot of research and spend some money where I live.
Much easier I suppose to just pay for locast or a better streaming service that carries the locals.

What kind of antenna are they using in Warwick if I may ask? That is the other side of my town.
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