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-   -   New York, NY - OTA (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-local-hdtv-info-reception/275729-new-york-ny-ota.html)

cpto 06-30-2003 10:14 PM

I've been following the NYC five boroughs thread and I don't easily find the information I'm looking for in it.

I hope those of us with antennas can start a thread restricted only to the status of Over-The-Air broadcasts from NYC to the metro area. Not CT, not PA, and not any other state a strange bounce may have enabled you to get. Antennas and amps are already covered in different threads, so let's leave them out too.

I'd also like to keep cable out of this entirely since one has to pay for cable, and not all systems carry HDTV, much less the NY/NJ channels.

So, with luck, we'll get some interested and informed members keeping us up to date on the politics and engineering efforts to restore the signals that died on 9/11. I'd like to see information on dates, power (temp low or full) and channels. I suspect there are a lot of us that would like that info too.

Please add any information you may have to the thread. If it's a bad thread, it'll die. But hey, that's evolution in action.

Rick

stevehoff 07-01-2003 08:55 AM

I'm with you! What's up with this? Didn't I read that we should expect something in the Fall? Any updates?

George Thompson 07-01-2003 12:35 PM

I just talked to one of the maintenance guys in local. He was telling me about delays that Empire threw into the mix. Like during a site inspection, our chief walked into the room only to find a fully staffed medical office with patients!!!!! ESB is milking rent for all they can get.
November 1st is a date he mentioned. However, we have options with several transmitters in the building. We could have one up and running as soon as the combiner is set up.
I didnt hear about Fridays conference call. It was to have been about legal and operations issues with the CE's.
More when I find out.
GT

stevehoff 07-01-2003 05:42 PM

Thanks George,
Please keep us posted. there are a few of us with antennas out here who just want to get more than CSI!!!!
Steve

RAVEN56706 07-01-2003 06:50 PM

i keep hearing the 1st of sept for abc and aug 31st for nbc.

cpto 07-01-2003 09:55 PM

Thanks, George. I'm wondering if you have any information on the radiated power and coverage of the new ESB transmitters. I'm hoping they'll be close to the ones on the WTC so I can receive them here in NJ.

Unfortunately, given the ugly politics that have cropped up about the location for a new antenna, or even a temporary one on Governors Island, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the new transmitters at a much lower power than the old ones, or with different footprints that ignore much of NJ, while the NYC stations wait to see what happens when the dust clears.

Rick

hobojoe 07-02-2003 06:37 PM

finally, a real ota only nyc thread! no more stupid mets schedules, please.

JoeCraw 07-03-2003 06:15 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by hobojoe
finally, a real ota only nyc thread! no more stupid mets schedules, please.

What about Mets OTA WPIX schedules?

Joe

cpto 07-03-2003 06:48 PM

Joe - I think that's a good question but I don't think it belongs in this thread. I think a better question would be "Does anyone know when WPIX will go back to their originally-assigned UHF channel, and what its power level and coverage will be compared to pre-9/11."

I miss the Mets' broadcasts too, but in this thread the schedule is really irrelevant. Even when WPIX does resume broadcasting, I would like this thread to concentrate only on reception issues. I think schedules of Mets' games should have its own thread..

I hope we can stay focused here solely on information regarding the going-live dates, power, and coverage of the returning NY OTA HDTV channels.

Rick

John Tillman 07-04-2003 11:46 AM

I tried to tune in WEDW-49 (PBS-Bridgeport) or WLIW-22 (PBS-Plainview) last night to watch the Tom Petty concert but could not get a digital signal (got analog OK).

Tried again earlier today and got the same results... Plus WTNH-10 (ABC-NH) was DOA as well. CSI was A-OK last night (empire).

What gives? Anyone got a digital signal from PBS? Soundstage is on again tonight.

Thanks.

trekkerj 07-04-2003 12:45 PM

I checked out soundstage last night also. Came in fine on WLIW-DT from North Jersey.

ponnie1996 07-04-2003 01:15 PM

got to view tom petty on 49 wedw no prob last night. abc 10 was fine also. could be your set up.

John Tillman 07-04-2003 02:58 PM

Thanks guys, I'll review my gear setup and where the rotor is pointing my antenna. Empire State Building stuff is fine, so the problem must be the rotor position.

MicroChip 07-06-2003 07:09 AM

Ok, I just checked the schedule and the Giants are on MNF the second week of the season, September 15th. Think we're going to have ABC-HD by then?

MC

cpto 07-06-2003 07:03 PM

Can we please keep this to NYC HD channels? There are other threads that address receiving PA/CT stations, antennas, rotors, and so forth.

I'm purposely trying to keep this thread limited to the status, strength, and estimated on-air dates of NYC channels.

Thanks.

Rick

JoeCraw 07-07-2003 07:37 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by cpto
I hope we can stay focused here solely on information regarding the going-live dates, power, and coverage of the returning NY OTA HDTV channels.

Ok Rick, for what it is worth I will give a little summary of what channels I can receive and my equipment.

I have an RCA DTC-100, a UHF/VHF Radio Shack antenna and a Radio Shack amp. I am located in Plainview, NY, which is right in the middle of Long Island (north to south) and on the Nassau/Suffolk border. With the antenna pointed to NYC I receive the following digital signals:
WCBS 2-1 (Strong with great HD)
FOX 5-1 (Strong but not HD)
WOR 5-2 (Strong but lousy picture quality)
WPIX 11-1 (12-1,75-1) (Good with great HD, a few breakups)
WLIW 21-1 (Fair with great HD, many breakups, but watchable)

If I turn my antenna North toward CT I can receive:
WTNH (ABC) on channel 10-1 (Good with great HD, a few breakups)

As far as the return of some NY OTA channels, the man to ask is George Thompson. The last post I read from him said "Early Sept is a little too optimistic I think" but he does believe the ESB combiner will be going this fall.

Hope this helps,
Joe

bgut1 07-07-2003 08:41 PM

George - Is there anything we can do to get ABC up in time for MNF (i.e. letters to the FCC, network heads, contributions)? I know this has been a herculean task getting everyone to agree on the combiner but aren't the networks even a bit embarrassed how long this is taking? Its not like we are in the #1 DMA or anything.

cpto 07-07-2003 09:24 PM

For what it's worth, I recently sent a letter to the WSJ. Don't know if it will do any good but at least they might think about it...

I would like to suggest a possible article for the WSJ. This has been widely discussed in the HDTV areas of avsforum (www.avsforum.com).

The destruction of the World Trade Center building had an enormous effect on the Nation. Congress rapidly passed bills authorizing payments to those who lost their lives, and pledged billions more to help the city. It seemed that the US came together following 9/11.

Yet one aspect has been largely ignored. Before 9/11, NYC, the number one television market, had HDTV broadcasts for the three major networks, Channel 11, and a digital signal from FOX. Following the attack, only channels 2 and 5 remained (with channel 9 sharing channel 5's bandwith).

One might think that in a time of crisis the area would have pulled together to provide rapid installation of the antennas that were lost. Possibly the best site - Governors Island - was rapidly rejected by the mayor. Problems with government agencies and local townships caused the collapse of efforts to install transmitters in NJ.

Finally, the stations "agreed" to piggyback on the transmitters that were in place in the Empire State Building. Some problems were real - such as the need to run new power lines up to the top of the building or to get new equipment. Others were money - there appears to have been a lot of conflict and negotiating over the rates CBS (and perhaps FOX) would charge other networks to piggyback their signals. The "long-term" interrim goal is to build a $M 50 temporary tower on Governors Island. All that means is more delay and an increase in advertising rates as the local stations cover their costs.

Two facts seem to have been forgotten. Broadcast TV is a means of reaching almost everyone in the metro area that has a television set, regardless of whether thay have cable. And, the FCC is pushing the conversion to digital of all broadcast stations.

I know this is not a story of major interest, but I think it does indicate how the interests of the public are subsumed to politics - even when the interest is the potentially critical one of being to receive television news and programming. Approximately 2.1 million ditigal sets were sold in 2002 - see http://www.digitaltelevision.com/200...igital_1.shtml - so the market is not small.

In summary, it would be interesting to see the WSJ investigate the delays in getting a permanent solution to NYC digital transmission. Something is going on here - money or politics - and the end result is that the public is being shortchanged.

Sincerely,

John Mason 07-08-2003 08:22 AM

Nice letter and article idea, cpto. Perhaps as a sidebar to such an article, or as an editorial, the WSJ could consider how misguided greed and politics blocking reestablishng NYC HDTV might be considered assisting the goals of the terrorists. -- John

vruiz 07-08-2003 09:23 AM

I'm still baffled as to why the stations and the MTVA did not flex any of their considerable PR muscle with regards to the best location (Governors Island) as the permanent site. They just asked the Mayor, he said no, and they just said "ok". Can you imagine the PR nightmare for City Hall if there had been ANY media reports on how the Mayor is laying off cops and firefighters and cutting all kinds of services, yet he summarily rejects a project that would bring millions of dollars in taxes to the city coffers, simply because it doesn't agree with his "vision" for the island?

Hey Bloomberg, when you have a budget crisis such as this one you can't afford a "vision"!

I just don't understand why the MTVA didn't exploit this angle. If they had, the permanent tower on Governors Island would already be on its way.

cpto 07-08-2003 04:20 PM

Vic - very nice comments. Maybe you should mail them to the NYT and WSJ. I hadn't considered the tax loss NYC will experience by refusing the Governors Island Site.

Rick

PS - Nice to see you in the thread!

hobojoe 07-08-2003 07:36 PM

hoboken, nj. i have a great view of the esb. 2.1(56)-100%, 5.1/2(44)-100%, 11.1/2(12)-95%, 13.1/2/3(61)-98%. now, wliw-dt22, for some reason, wont register when i try to add it to my channel list. during the day it comes in at 30%, but after 11pm it comes in at around 80%. i'm using a sony sat-hd100 with a radio shack vu190 or vu120. can't remember exactly, but its pretty big. no preamp, no amp. btw, its not like i hate the mets or anything, its just that the other nyc thread was really getting off topic and tv schedules kept popping up almost every day. so anyone else having problems with 22?

hayt 07-08-2003 08:20 PM

Good thread, let's not let it get away. I love the news about ABC and NBC!! I live in East Rockaway, south shore of LI. With a RS rooftop UHF/VHF I'm getting very strong (west)CBS, FOX, and UPN.WPIX is maddeningly inconsistent-some days its in the 50's (on my RCA DTC100) and others its in the 30's, and not watchable. Met games looked very good, (as good as FSNY and MSG from CV) and so did Smallville. With a set top RS amplified antenna, I get a good signal (east)on WLIW-DT on 22-2,3. HD looked superb (Tom Petty was very colorful and sharp). I have had no luck with WNYE (channel 24), PBS (61) or WLNY (57).

Bogney Baux 07-08-2003 08:50 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by hayt
I have had no luck with WNYE (channel 24)

WNYE-DT was last on the air about 1.5 years ago.

Bob Hawley 07-09-2003 07:18 AM

For the last several weeks, and again last night during Smallville, I've tried to find WPIX-DT and I get nothing, not even "weak signal." I live in Stamford, and I'm using a Winegard 9095 aimed at NYC, a Winegard AP4800 preamp and a DTC-100. Last night signal strengths for CBS and Fox were in the high 80s, and WLIW was in the 40s (but erratic, sometimes diving into the 20s), but no indication of any signal at all from WPIX. I understand that WPIX is broadcasting with low power, but shouldn't I get something? If I hadn't read otherwise here, I would think that WPIX, like ABC and NBC, was not broadcasting OTA. Is it me or WPIX?

MrMartin 07-09-2003 07:33 AM

Bob, as your current Winegard 9095 is UHF antenna only, you will not be able to receive WPIX until station changes from their temporary VHF channel 12 to UHF 33.

Martin

Bob Hawley 07-09-2003 07:50 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by MrMartin
Bob, as your current Winegard 9095 is UHF antenna only, you will not be able to receive WPIX until station changes from their temporary VHF channel 12 to UHF 33.

Martin

I was afraid that something like that was going to be the answer. Do we know when WPIX is expected to change to UHF 33?

Bill Broderick 07-09-2003 08:06 AM

Over the last week or two, my reception of CBS & Fox has not been great. I used to get both of these stations at a solid 100 signal strength (Toshiba DST-3000). Now they are both fluctuating between high 70's low 80's.

I'm in western Suffolk County. Has anyone else been having reception problems lately?

wilsonjd 07-09-2003 10:42 AM

Is there anyone out there in the Hudson Valley? I live in Poughkeepsie, NY. I think our chances of EVER getting OTA reception a slim and none. Maybe if they build the 1776 foot tower at the WTC site.

Bob Hawley 07-09-2003 11:10 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Hawley
. . . Do we know when WPIX is expected to change to UHF 33?

Trying to answer my own question, I read the 19 pages of the WPIX thread, and no one seems to know for sure. The best guess seems to be that WPIX will go full power on UHF channel 33 from the ESB when the other digital stations begin broadcasting from the ESB. Which cannot happen soon enough, so far as I'm concerned.

chadamir 07-09-2003 12:49 PM

I'm less than 18 miles from ESB and can only get around 30 percent with a silver sensor and a myhd card. I tried an rca ant200 also and wasn't any better

Vermonster 07-09-2003 01:31 PM

This is my first time in this particular part of the forum, so I'm sure this is going to sound very newbyish. I haven't seen anyone from Manhattan yet post to this thread and I'm wondering if it's because no one can get decent reception here. I was considering getting an OTA box but was told that 8-VSB doesn't work so well in metropolitan areas (supposedly it has difficulty with multipath issues created by moving vehicles, planes, etc. Is this true? Or are people smack dab in the middle of the city in fact able to enjoy OTA HDTV?

Thanks.

bgut1 07-09-2003 03:10 PM

I've emailed the chief engineer of WPIX asking if they intend to boost the power on 12 and when they anticipate switching to 33. I'll post his response when I get it.

sangs 07-10-2003 11:23 AM

Quote:


Originally posted by Vermonster
This is my first time in this particular part of the forum, so I'm sure this is going to sound very newbyish. I haven't seen anyone from Manhattan yet post to this thread and I'm wondering if it's because no one can get decent reception here. I was considering getting an OTA box but was told that 8-VSB doesn't work so well in metropolitan areas (supposedly it has difficulty with multipath issues created by moving vehicles, planes, etc. Is this true? Or are people smack dab in the middle of the city in fact able to enjoy OTA HDTV?

Thanks.

Manhattanites don't watch TV - there's too much else to do.

I have seen some Manhattan residents post in the local NYC-NJ forums and I do seem to recall a good number of them having reception issues.

For those receiving WLIW, exactly what channel is it? I've seen so many different channels listed for it. I'm never able to pick it up with the channels I've inputed, but I see that some people from NJ (I'm about 10-15 miles from NYC) get it. I have my antenna pointed at the ESB, but also have a rotator so I'm flexible. Am I just too far away at this point?

trekkerj 07-10-2003 11:27 AM

No you're not too far. I'm in Parsippany and I can pick it up with my indoor UHF antenna with a preamp. It's Ch. 22 from Plainview, LI. 22-1 and 22-2 which will map to virtual 21-1 and 21-2.

cpto 07-11-2003 03:15 PM

I guess we really need some local expertise on this. I spent almost an hour trolling through the FCC pages and search engines and couldn't find any specific dates approved by the FCC for WABC-DT and WNBC-DT.

If anyone can point to the current FCC sapprovided build-out date for the remaining NYC stations could you please post it here?

Thanks.

Rick

George Thompson 07-11-2003 03:49 PM

All stations on the ESB are covered by extensions....... no specific date.
GT

cpto 07-11-2003 09:42 PM

Thanks, George. That's sort of what I got from the FCC pages. I would think that the FCC would be a little more up front about the public licenses and extensions it grants...

Rick

SteinyD 07-12-2003 04:38 AM

I'm in NJ (Morris County) and getting CBS and FOX just fine. I would suspect NBC and ABC would be put up with equal strength. As there doesn't appear to be a nearterm decision on the new tower, I don't think they would limit the power for that reason.


Quote:


Originally posted by cpto
Thanks, George. I'm wondering if you have any information on the radiated power and coverage of the new ESB transmitters. I'm hoping they'll be close to the ones on the WTC so I can receive them here in NJ.

Unfortunately, given the ugly politics that have cropped up about the location for a new antenna, or even a temporary one on Governors Island, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the new transmitters at a much lower power than the old ones, or with different footprints that ignore much of NJ, while the NYC stations wait to see what happens when the dust clears.

Rick


imws 07-13-2003 05:10 AM

from a fellow manhattanite to another 8-VSB rocks and it works better than you can imagine. btw the double bowtie on the floor of my apt picked up all the digital stations in the NYC metro area pre-9/11 and at high signal levels. stations received back then OTA were WCBS, WNBC, WNYW, WABC, WWOR, WPIX, WNET, WNYE. So as you can see my first hand experience with OTA 8-VSB has been truly amazing. all you need is a RS double bowtie and you're in business. line of sight is not required either. the double bowtie is UHF only so if you want to receive WPIX then you'll need a VHF antenna as well.

Vermonster 07-13-2003 06:27 AM

Cool,

You said you got all those channels pre-911. How many do you get now?

imws 07-13-2003 07:32 AM

i get the following OTA stations w/ an RCA DTC100 and the RS Double Bowtie.

WCBS-DT at signal level 79
WYNY-DT at signal level 75

that's with the double bowtie oriented NorthEast away from the ESB. I have north facing windows and my signal levels are higher when I point the antenna towards the window. i'm on the 3rd floor which is not very high up btw.

that's it unfortunately. i haven't tried WPIX-DT since you need a VHF antenna for that. If you want more stations then TWC-NYC offers the above in addition to the following:

WNBC-DT
WABC-DT
WNET-DT
SHOHD
HBOHD

??WPIX-DT recently added and subsequently dropped

cpto 07-13-2003 08:22 PM

Bill - I'm 22 air miles from the ESB. Even with a rotor, amp, and "fringe" antenna, the NYC stations are very susceptible to degradation from rain, snow, and UFO's cruising around Manhattan.

I suspect that at least some of your problem comes from the lousy weather we've had in the last couple of weeks. Since lower UHF channels on the whole have to have a greater range I'm wondering why WCBC-DT accepted channel 56 instead of one of the lower ones that would give it greater coverage. Maybe they had nothing to say about it but it reminds me of the fights I've read about in the early days of TV broadcasting where the networks were fighting for the lower VHS channels and PBS usually got one of the higher ones.

Maybe that's why CBS-DT drops out when FOX-DT is still fine (Fine in the sense of the signal, not the type of digital signal they're transmitting).

Rick

Quote:


Originally posted by Bill Broderick
Over the last week or two, my reception of CBS & Fox has not been great. I used to get both of these stations at a solid 100 signal strength (Toshiba DST-3000). Now they are both fluctuating between high 70's low 80's.

I'm in western Suffolk County. Has anyone else been having reception problems lately?


ponnie1996 07-14-2003 07:18 AM

Personally, I'm trying to figure out why my CBS ch 56 signal is anywhere from 50s to 100 signal strenght but FOX NY 44 ranges from teens to 51 strength.

and even when I have a 51 strength, the picture pixelates and does not stay steady. I'm assuming that Fox is transmitting at lower(??) and that I'm getting intererence.

why only on 44 though since they both transmit from ESB?

BTW, I have 2 ant in attic (4228 facing north for CT, and RS V120 facing towards NY into combiner with CM preamp) and live about 60 mi from ESB

cpto 07-15-2003 03:28 PM

Ponnie - sounds like you're not doing badly for that distance from NYC. I'm about 22 air miles away in NJ and both channels are very susceptible to weather - even fog.

Rick

cpto 07-16-2003 05:25 PM

Bump

bgut1 07-17-2003 02:40 PM

George - a post in the HD Programming Forum confirms that ABC intends to start transmitting HD Monday Night Football with the Hall of Fame Game on August 4. Please please please tell me they are making progress with the combiner atop ESB. I know the 8/4 game is impossible if not unlikely but I hope the first regular season game is not out of the question.

wward 07-18-2003 06:54 AM

ponnie1996

I have noticed the same problem the only conclusion I can come to and I have yet to confirm this is that WCBS-DT may be broadcasting at a higher ERP than WNYW-DT. Also placement on the main antenna mast at the ESB could possibly effect recption as well.

One other thing I noticed to is during heavy rain fall WNYW-DT's signal really drops off significantly.

George Thompson 07-18-2003 07:13 AM

Ok, here is the latest. We just signed the CBS contract this morning. I think everyone else has signed too. Now it is up to the ESB lawyers to sign off on the lease agreement. That should happen soon and the combiner will be authorized for final construction. 60-90 days. Most likely November.

I don't remember if WNYW-DT is using the mast on the 84th floor parapit or the flat panel bolted to the side of a building down town but they are only running about 250W. The VHF's on ESB have to power down and use the parapit antenna at night since mast work is going on to put the analog antennas back on the mast. Later this year they will be up there too.

GT

wward 07-18-2003 08:03 AM

George

That explains it. I have noticed that after 1am on some week nights and every weekend for the past 3-4 weeks WNYW-DT would drop off the map. I heard from CBS engineering that there was some work going on up there but iI had no idea that there was mojor work going on.

Thanks for the info.

Bogney Baux 07-18-2003 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by George Thompson
I don't remember if WNYW-DT is using the mast on the 84th floor parapit or the flat panel bolted to the side of a building down town but they are only running about 250W.

Are you sure about this? Could you have been thinking of WPIX-DT (12) or WNET-DT (61) instead of WNYW-DT (44).

George Thompson 07-18-2003 10:03 AM

I am frantically looking for a back issue of an industry mag that showed a pix of the mast on the setback up there and said what stations they were. There were several stations mentioned by the CE when I talked to him this morning....... I may be confused. My appologies. I will set this straight.
GT

EDIT
WNET-DT is 250W and on the 81st floor setback. NYW-DT is up on the mast,(no mention of power). Article in 1/03 BE magazine. Still, during mast work stations move to alternate antennas on 81.

trekkerj 07-18-2003 01:32 PM

Any idea if WPIX is going to boost their signal or switch to UHF 33 any sooner? Their 0.125kW doesn't get as far as me very well.

So are we saying NBC and ABC should be up by November?

Bogney Baux 07-18-2003 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by George Thompson
WNET-DT is 250W and on the 81st floor setback. NYW-DT is up on the mast,(no mention of power). Article in 1/03 BE magazine. Still, during mast work stations move to alternate antennas on 81.

When did WNET-DT move to the Empire State Building? I was under the impression that they were temporarily on a different building near Penn Station.

coachgns 07-18-2003 05:24 PM

Maybe someone here can help me.
I live on Long Island, in an apartment with a central Antenna. As of now, it picks up the regular NYC stations well.
My TV is a HDTV plasma panel - Pioneer 4330HD. Dual NTSC tuners.
When I go through the antenna terminal, if I tune TV to any of the HD channels I get only snow.
Is there something else I need to get OTA HD?

If not, looks like I am stuck with 4 HD channels since that's all CV provides as of now.

Thank you

trekkerj 07-18-2003 05:42 PM

You need an OTA set-top box. NTSC tuners tune regular old analog stations.

cpto 07-25-2003 09:28 PM

George - thanks for your continuing updates. You're a real jewel of information for those of us in the NYC metro area.

Again, thanks for continuing to contribute your knowledge to this thread!

Rick

jscnyc 07-26-2003 12:13 PM

ok, WB is transmitting once again tg. the question is will the Mets be in in hd tonite, since the last couple of weeks i noticed no hd prg on.


john

ken34 07-27-2003 09:34 AM

I haven't read this thread for awhile. I thought somebody would have sent this by now. From what I read here and elsewhere. WNET-DT does transmit low power from their studios on I believe W33 ST. The antennas at Empire on the 81st Floor are Channel 13's back up VHF antennas which WPIX-DT is currently using to transmit low power on channel 12.

trekkerj 07-27-2003 10:15 AM

I keep trying to lock in on WPIX-DT. It's just too low power. I am in Morris County, NJ. Unfortunately, I don't have an outdoor antenna. I use the radio shack double bowtie uhf antenna. This antenna is great, it even detects the signal on ch 12, but doesn't lock in even close. I bought a simple VHF amp and hooked it up to a standard set of rabbit ear antennas. Still nothing. However, when I move the VHF antenna to a window, open the window, and stick it out of the window (north facing), the light on the STB is on more frequently, and every 2-10 seconds, I get a burst of 50% power on the signal strength meter, which then drops back to 0. Still can't lock in. Any suggestions? Is there a better indoor VHF type antenna? I think I'm stuck not getting it with my indoor setup though.

Ricky 07-30-2003 06:23 AM

Any updates on when we'll get CBS and ABC in hi-def? Is early August still reasonable?

John Tuohy 07-30-2003 08:59 AM

Of course Ricky means NBC and ABC

It is looking more like Nov

Regards

cpto 07-30-2003 03:10 PM

John - any source for the [additional] delay and what might be causing it?

Thanks.

Rick

John Tuohy 07-30-2003 03:30 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by cpto
John - any source for the [additional] delay and what might be causing it?

Thanks.

Rick


Rick

Sorry for not being more precise I am relying on the info posted by Mr. Thomson on the previous page of this thread.

I am hoping November.

lightly 08-02-2003 05:20 PM

Did any one else have a problem?

Last night I had no problem getting reception from SW Nassau County. Even in the rain.
ie
2-1 100%
5-1 100%
5-2 100%
12-1 30%

Today
2-1 30%
5-1 0%
5-2 0%
12-1 0%

Perhaps they are working on the Broadcast antenna?

John Tuohy 08-02-2003 05:28 PM

I am getting a 94 on CBS an 88 on Fox and a whooping 55 for PIX

fab65 08-03-2003 08:39 AM

Hey all. I've been lurking and learning for a while now and haven't had much to post about. I just picked up a silver sensor yesterday, since I don't want to commit to roof top antenna just yet. I have the panny D* hd receiver. Though I haven't subscribed to the hd package yet.

I live in Oceanside (s/w nassau county LI) and tried getting CBS last night. The show that was on was going in and out on a consistent basis. Is that due more to my distance to the ESB and/or antenna, or did the weather have anything to do with it. Or a combination?

Also, I noticed that scrolling through the guide, I didn't see a 4-1 channel set up, so I manually added channels and then there were additional 2, 4 ,5, channels that I added, but there weren't any more of the -1 channels. Will that be a problem in the future, and can I get back the default setup.

So is CBS the only NYC channel/network able to broadcast HD programming? I've read so many threads, that they've started to blend as one big mess. Any input would be helpful.

SteveWinNJ 08-03-2003 05:07 PM

Fab,

Try moving the antenna around a bit while you check the antenna strength. Here in Bergen County, 20 mi from ESB, raising the antenna to the top of a speaker gives me a lock on CBS with no dropouts.

For now, CBS is the only OTA true HDTV that I can receive in Mahwah, NJ. Fox locks in also, but that is not HD.

If that fails, look into an antenna pre-amp. The HDTV Hardware section has lots of good info.

As you you can see from the previous posts, OTA in the NYC area will be getting much better very soon! NBC and ABC coming to the ESB this fall!!

fab65 08-03-2003 05:12 PM

Thanks Steve, I'll keep trying. This may sound stupid, but how do I check the antenna signal? I know how to check for the sat. signal. Is it in the same area? I guess I should check for myself before asking these questions. BTW, I really like ur hotels.

SteveWinNJ 08-04-2003 01:26 AM

Fab,

I don't have a Hughes HDTV receiver, but the antenna strength/adjustment screen should be under "system test" or "setup". You should be able to see the signal strength as you adjust the antenna. See the post by "Lightly" a few prior to this one, that should give you an idea of your potential signal strengths...your mileage may vary.

Also, WPIX (12-1) is broadcasting at low power, but you'll need an antenna that covers VHF for that, your antenna is UHF only.

Thanks to cpto for keeping this thread for NYC area OTA ...we should be seeing more activity in this thread as we head towards fall!

(thanks for the thoughts about "my" hotels!...I only wish it were me! )

cpto 08-05-2003 07:08 PM

There have been a lot of people in the NJ area (including me) that have more problems with CBS than FOX in inclement weather.

I know that CBS is at a higher frequency than fox (don't know about the effective radiated power though), but does anyone know what the net effect is? I also have the same problem with Philadelphia stations - the lower channels come through better than the higher ones.

I saw a map on CBS a couple of years ago that showed the estimated coverage area for DT-56. Is there any ready source for the other NY channels and the returning ones?

Thanks.

Rick

cpto 08-05-2003 07:13 PM

A couple of years ago Stark electronics was selling a CM parabolic 8-foot antenna for fringe reception. I was hoping that the gain might help make up for rain / fog / snow fade from WCBS but the antenna doesn't appear to be available any more.

Does any one have experience with this antenna, know where it might be found, or why it wouldn't help reception?

Thanks.

Rick

cpto 08-05-2003 10:30 PM

I received this very nice and thorough response from nitewatchman and am posting it here for you to enjoy. It's not too often we here get such a thorough response to a question.

Rick

Hello,

Saw your post asking about the parabolic UHF Dish antenna, and thought I'd reply via PM, as I'm not in your area -- Channel Master used to make these in I believe 6' and 7' diameter versions, but they have been discontinued for quite a while. Certianly, a fine antenna(Considered the best UHF antenna "ever" by some), but, due to it's size and shape, it also requires a lot of "mounting support" due to wind/ice loading. There's a nice pic of one on a 85' tower in the pics near bottom of this page(7' Channel master dish photo -- You'll probably need to right click and choose "show picture" to see the pic):

http://www.oldtvguides.com/DXPhotos/

Concerning WCBS-DT 56, along the lines of what you mentioned on the thread, it is certianly the case that becasue of the shorter wavelength's involved, much more power is necessary for a station operating on Hi-UHF channels than is the case on lower frequenices in order to cover the same area, and also, these high frequencies are also more "sensitive" "signal propagation wise" to terrain and other "environmental factors" ...

For example, RF absorbtion by leaves would be much more of a problem on 56 than on lower UHF channels or, even moreso for the much longer wavelengths of VHF. Rain and wind can also be a factor on these high frequencies --- Now, these "environmental factors" aren't really a BIG issue(although terrain/building blockage of signal is a big issue), but if you're dealing with a weak signal coming from your antenna to begin with, a little issue can appear like a big issue. (keep in mind, in nearly all cases, the "signal meters" on our receivers don't measure "signal strength" , it's a sort of "signal quality" meter, which is implemented on the "digital datastream" "side" of the receiver, not the "RF Signal" portion of the receiver ... For this reason, a actual, fairly weak signal, just over the "threshold" needed for good DTV reception can produce High readings on our receiver's meters.

It's also the case that some receving antennas don't do as good of a job on the higher UHF channels. VHF/UHF combo antennas, typcially don't do well on Hi-UHF, for example, although I have had good luck with hi-UHF local DT's here with the RS VU210 antenna, a a LARGE VHF/UHF Combo - which has also been discontinued. Also, Feedline incurs more signal loss the higher the frequency.

Really though, more "reasonably sized", and conventional UHF antennas such as the CM4248 Yagi, CM4228 Bowtie, and some of the European hi-gain antennas from Blake, Televes and Triax are pretty close to the performance wise to the "big dish", and one of these, outside up nice and high with a hi-gain/low noise preamp such as the CM7777 would come very close, if not exceeding the "Big dish's" performance.

Follows is info WCBS-DT's technical parameters from FCC CDBS database, concerning their currently licensed facilities. :

I pulled up WCBS-DT's current Technical paramenters, and given their TX antenna height on ESB(1345FT Above Sea Level), Non-directional antenna, and 349KW ERP power level for their licensed facility(According to FCC data, this is what they should be operating with unless their having Temporary technical problems that don't require issuance of a STA by FCC, or, to meet RF exposure regulations if anyone working on the ESB antennas). You might want to check with them to make sure, on the power, though. One of their Engineer's did start/post a thread recently in local AVS area, asking for reception reports.

If this is the power/antenna height they are operating with however, I'd think they should do a decent job getting out to as far away as around 50 Miles or so, although, the "fringe area guy" at 50 Miles+ from the ESB would likely want a very good antenna setup for UHF, as high as possible, with no terrain/signal blockage issues invloved....

As a bit of a comparision, In our area, for instance, we have a DT on 58 running 290KW ERP, which is being received well on a attic antenna from almost 60 miles distant! Their antenna height, while only about 1000 feet above average terrain, is over 2000FT above sea level.(Most of the terrain in this area, however, is between 600-1100 Feet above sea level).


WCBS-TV NY NEW YORK USA (Digital)

Licensee: CBS BROADCASTING INC.
Service Designation: DT "Full Service" TV Station or Application (digital)

Channel 56 (722-728 MHz) Licensed
File No.: BLCDT -19981026KG Facility ID No: 9610
CDBS Application ID No.: 276124

Antenna Structure Registration Number (ASRN): 1007048


40 ° 44' 54.00" Latitude Zone: 1
73 ° 59' 10.00" Longitude (NAD27) Frequency Offset: None
Polarization: Horizontally Polarized (H)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 349. kW ERP
Ant. Height Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 397.0 meters HAAT
Ant. Radiation Center Above Mean Sea Level: 410.0 meters RCAMSL
Ant. Radiation Center Above Ground Level: 395. meters RCAGL

Not directional
Not in a Border Zone

-----------------------------------

Anyhow, hope some of this helps, I enjoy looking at the NYC OTA thread, and I hope NYC can get the OTA situation back to "normal" as soon as possible. I know the NYC broadcasters are doing the best they can, but I can't help but think how much different things might be if we were in the 1960's or 70's, before cableTV ... Still, though, I may have missed it, but I'm surprised I haven't seen a Major News story concerning the loss of the WTC OTA transmitters.

Anyhow, take it easy,

Jeff in Middletown, Ohio

dapope 08-06-2003 03:46 PM

I have a cm4228, cm 7777 and rotor, just hooked everything up last night, im , located in sheepshead bay, brooklyn, about 12 miles from the esb. Eventhough the 4228 is a uhf only antenna, i still pick up all the vhf channels, the upper channels are the strongest. What also is very strange, just about any where i have the 4228 pointed, it will lock on my local dt channels, Isnt that amazingly odd ? Im running hd200, and dtc 100, and both are reacting the same, getting vhf, and, no matter where the antenna is pointed, it locks on 2.1,5.1,5.2,11.1,11.2,12.1,75.1,75.2,40.1 and 53.Has any1 else experienced anything like this?The antenna is mounted on a one family house on a 10 foot pole.
Stan

JoeCraw 08-07-2003 08:55 AM

Stan,

11.1, 11.2, 12.1, 12.2, 75.1, 75.2 are all the same channel (WPIX).
Out in Plainview (with no rotor) I get all of the WPIXs, 2.1(CBS), 5.1(FOX), 5.2(UPN-low quality broadcast), 22.1 (WLIW-HD), 22.2 (WLIW-SD).

You must be so close to the signals, you don't need to point the antenna.

Joe

dapope 08-07-2003 09:41 AM

Seems that way Joe, i was kinda of shocked at first. I have minor problems with my rotor, as it seems to lock after a few turns clockwise, it, will always turn counter clockwise tho, major problem is even though it is not moving , the display is showing it moving to new setting, which throws the whole dam rotor off, and, i have no idea where its pointed at. Only thing that fixs it, is i go to my 1 preset for nyc[ highest signal] and do a synch, and that corrects the problem for a short period.I have to go back on the roof and make sure everything is properly alighned, im using a 5 foot pole for the dish, which is sitting on a 10 ' pole for the main mount.Also USING TB 105 SUPPORT BEARING, WHICH, may be out of whack.Any1 using a 4228 with a 5 ' pole and no tb 105 ?
Stan

muadib 08-07-2003 04:40 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by JoeCraw
Stan,

11.1, 11.2, 12.1, 12.2, 75.1, 75.2 are all the same channel (WPIX).
Out in Plainview (with no rotor) I get all of the WPIXs, 2.1(CBS), 5.1(FOX), 5.2(UPN-low quality broadcast), 22.1 (WLIW-HD), 22.2 (WLIW-SD).

You must be so close to the signals, you don't need to point the antenna.

Joe

Do all of these broadcast from the ESB? I'm able to get CBS, FOX, and UPN,
but none of the others.

dapope 08-08-2003 07:17 AM

yes they do, but not at full power yet
Stan

Bogney Baux 08-08-2003 12:21 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by dapope
yes they do, but not at full power yet

Correct, except for WLIW, which is from Long Island.

jscnyc 08-08-2003 05:46 PM

I no longer receive wpix's 75.01 & 02, are they still broadcasting these? I do receive wb's 11.01 & .02 also 12.01. a comment about fox, I thought there bernie mack show and there new show wanda looked really good


john

dapope 08-08-2003 06:29 PM

yes John, they're still on
Stan

Mattdoc 08-08-2003 10:45 PM

If I could stick my head out the window, and turn sideways, I would see the ESB unobstructed, as I live 4 block and 5 avenues away. However, the window is ceiling to floor and does not open. Would an indoor antennae be sufficient to pull in HD, or since I am at an angle will my own apartment wall block me.
I have time warner cable now, but since I cannot record HD from that, I am hoping to build an HTPC, if that would work better. But if I cannot use an indoor antenae, I would need to wait for another option. Thanks for any help.
---Matt

John Mason 08-09-2003 05:51 AM

Some in Manhattan report picking up ESB stations via reflections from other buildings. I can with very careful positioning of a Silver Sensor antenna (inches matter), pointing it about 70 degrees northward from the ESB. Image stability isn't the best (wouldn't want to record), but each site is unique. As more OTA's begin this fall, 8-VSB for recording may improve at some locations. A building master UHF/VHF antenna could help. Of course, about that time TWC may roll out HD-PVR converters, too. -- John

pepijn 08-09-2003 10:57 PM

Finally signed up after years of lurking.

Since our cable service is very rudimentary and lacking features (any other NuVisions subscribers out there?) I went out and got me a Samsung T151 from J&R after they agreed to give me a break on the price. Since then I've been trying with very little success to get some DTV action going. We're all the way on the west side at around 70th on the 23rd floor with a W/NW view of the river and the GWB as well as an E/SE view of Central Park and downtown, and so far the two RS antenna's I've tried have only been able to pick up WCBS-DT on 56, with a lot of tweaking and wishing and praying. The models I've tried with were the 15-1838 (has a fine tuning dial on it, very frustrating to work with) and the 15-1880; both have preamps although the latter seems to have a higher gain. When checking signal strength it is clear how jumpy the reception is, going back and forth between 6-7 and 0, apparently also influenced by where I am in relation to the antenna.

The home theater and receiver are located on the west side of the apartment, with the rest of the building (and many other high rises as well) between the antenna and ESB. Since I am pretty sure there is no central antenna system in this building it seems to me that I am stuck with trying to get some sort of indoor antenna to work. Has anyone on the UWS had any luck at all getting anything more than WCBS-DT to come in, or should I just give up right now and return all this stuff to the store? I really want my HDTV, especially considering the abysmal quality I get with the regular TV offering from our current (and only) cable service. Any opinions, tips or testimonials from fellow-UWS'ers would be immensely appreciated!

Thanks for listening.

-P-

P.S.: Interestingly enough, it seems that NuVisions is relaying some HDTV programming over their cable system, which the T151 is actually able to pick up when set to "IRC" mode in the channel scan menu option. The signal is not great, between 4 and 5 bars, but it has no dropouts and stays steady at that level. This way I can get WCBS (2-1), WNYW (5-1, 5-2) and WLIW (22-1, 22-2) but I would rather try with an antenna and be able to try for the other available stations.

Mattdoc 08-10-2003 01:07 AM

Thanks John.
Sadly my building discontinued maintaining the wiring from the roof antenae, as most everyone in the building has cable TV. I am hoping that they may re-use it, but from what I hear its the wiring in the walls that somehow went bad. I will likely get an indoor antenae soon, but will wait to see when ABC/NBC broadcast OTA, or if Time Warner will be forthcoming with an HD PVR.

John Mason 08-10-2003 07:17 AM

pepijn,
Welcome to the forums. You might enter your location at antennaweb.org and see what NJ stations are nearby. If your windows don't block too much UHF/VHF there are various station options.

Yes, my Silver Sensor reception varies when I'm near it, and I once tinkered with a magazine-size chunk of aluminum foil as a reflection blocker. Helps at times. -- John

jscnyc 08-10-2003 10:02 AM

if i remember pre-season football was in hd on cbs last year. would anyone know why it isn't today.


john

Bogney Baux 08-10-2003 11:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jscnyc
if i remember pre-season football was in hd on cbs last year.

I believe that is incorrect. I do not recall CBS ever doing a pre season game in HD.

jscnyc 08-10-2003 12:11 PM

you are right.thnx

john

John Tillman 08-19-2003 10:13 AM

I've been in a dead zone lately out in Northport. CBS has constant dropouts. I can't even pull WLIW-22 (do they broadcast in a 360 degree direction?). PBS out of Bridgeport drops in/out all the time. ABC-10 NH is well, the same.

As far as NYC, I presume it is related to the work going on? I use Dish, thinking about checking them out for CBS. Been dying a slow death since 9/11 round' here.

Paperboy2003 08-19-2003 04:55 PM

I grew up in E.Northport....nice area.

I don't mean to bash, but many people died a 'quick' death on 9/11 and to bitch about it b/c of tv reception seems a bit misguided.

John Tillman 08-19-2003 07:12 PM

Quote:


I don't mean to bash, but many people died a 'quick' death on 9/11 and to bitch about it b/c of tv reception seems a bit misguided.

Yea, I hear ya. Not talkin' about dead people though. Talkin' about dead/dying air waves.

Bogney Baux 08-21-2003 03:34 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by Ricky
Any updates on when we'll get NBC and ABC in hi-def? Is early August still reasonable?

I am now hearing January.

Ken Ross 08-21-2003 05:37 PM

This is really getting more than a bit absurd.

trekkerj 08-21-2003 05:41 PM

Who are you hearing this from?

bgut1 08-21-2003 07:57 PM

Quote:


Originally posted by Bogney Baux
I am now hearing January.

Oh come on!!! What happened to November? This has got to be a joke. George - If you are out there, is there any truth to this statement?

kcn823 08-21-2003 08:41 PM

antennaweb.org is now saying Dec 31st for ABC and NBC. this sucks!

cpto 08-22-2003 09:06 AM

Yeah, it sucks. If two of the majors are taking their time broadcasting digitally to the #1 metro area it appears they'll be dragging their feet in the future over giving up their analog stations.

1. People in Metro NY didn't buy digital sets because our transmitter was down for 2+ years.

2. Therefore, we need two additional years to allow the market to catch up to the rest of the country.

Hard to believe that the ESB - the new transmitter site - was built in only a year. Were these network clowns in charge they'd only be up to the 30th floor today.

Rick

Ken Ross 08-22-2003 05:54 PM

Rick, funny but true!

John Tuohy 08-22-2003 06:11 PM

Anyone getting gray bars on CBS. I thought it might be my STB but I tried another and still get gray bars. Argggg!


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