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post #15031 of 15068 Old 10-18-2019, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
Attached are TSreader caps from a bit earlier for Dayton/Cincy (Missing WRGT, WDYC-LD and if still up WLWD-LD), feel free to snag'em for rabbitears if you want'em trip ... Elliot posted on WKRP FB last night(haven't checked it since then) that they(WBQC-LD) were going to try to be up on 28 by tonight, was trying to wait for that before posting the tsreader Htm's but haven't seen them yet ...

I wish I could set up TSreader to continually try to lock on a signal and then decode/etc whatever it can rather than getting a "cannot lock" message after a few seconds of trying, as I don't know when I can get to it but have more than a bit of work to do getting a decent setup back together in the shack for DX'ing and/or trying to see what's up with WRGT/WDYC/etc, as what I'd had set up that worked well before all got tore out when remodelling house/etc and hasn't been put back yet ... I've been having to run up and down stairs all day from the shack to a LG TV with a good manual channel edit function, LOL ....
Thanks. Glad to have it.

I've watched six phases go by now, and I'm pretty sure that almost none of the "going to have the antenna replaced on this specific day" predictions have come true. I'd have been more surprised if WBQC-LD did make it back on the air today.

You might like the Live Bandscan for DXing. It was hugely helpful to me in determining who had moved and when. And it does send PSIP data, at least, back to the server.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #15032 of 15068 Old 10-18-2019, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Thanks. Glad to have it.

I've watched six phases go by now, and I'm pretty sure that almost none of the "going to have the antenna replaced on this specific day" predictions have come true.
ROFLMAO, because some of the recent "Transition Plan Progress reports" have been quite entertaining and I became skeptical of what many of them said months ago -- particularly the ones filed which say "Yes" to "Does the Station anticipate that all tower work, including antenna installation, will be completed in time to meet its construction deadline?", but "No" to it actually being done with the filing coming a little over a week before today.

.... THEN a few days ago(I think one was not filed until the 16th) come several apps for CP extension and STA filings for interim facilities .... And yet, the relatively Low power(in comparision to the blow torch first adjacent channel stations near them - not necessarily exactly co-located but almost) "interim" antenna for the STAs in some cases with the crazy nulls are on the towers already ... I suppose that's not as much of a stretch when the antenna is broadband(maybe an aux antenna/etc, better it's there than not - how is it that it just so happens WDTN doesn't seem to have something like that and in one filing said things about maybe having to go dark if they couldn't stay on 50/etc), but still ......... and, without mentioning anyone "specifically" of course .....

Certainly, the repack is a lot to get done in a short amount of time(and it's not like stations asked for it either afaik) especially when you consider bad weather and tower crew availability, but still, 10 days ahead of end of the phase# and quite a number of stations(at least the "front office part" of them) all "think" the tower crew will get to them and get it done .... LOL ...

To be honest, here, KET(WCVN, didn't look at the others) was the only one I was absolutely sure some time ago was ready from the filings ....

Anyway, WSTR's STA really doing well here, have a feeling WKEF's(and presumably WRGT as they appear to be on the same antenna from the filings) isn't doing too well here because of the null my way and the 1st adjacent channel blow torches that aren't quite exactly co-located(only "almost") .... the Amplification on my end probably has something to do with it too, I haven't done the calculations(edit: as the STA's aren't showing as granted yet so not yet showing up in rabbitears search map predictions) but I don't think the null in their DA towards me is so great that it would be too many 10's of db difference from the blow torch 1st adjacents, and for example I could decode WLWD-LD with their bigger null with only a few watts squirted(edit:well 18watts @12.9 miles not LOS to be exact) my way (as long as wbqc-ld and previously WOTH-CD were off air when I tried it) ....

Edit: OK, I did the calculations(should have done that before talking about it!) -- IF the actual facilities match the STA(and the antenna height looks very good), For my receive location, WKEF/WRGT should only be about 13-14db or so down from 1st adjacent channel WPTD, and WKEF 21db below N-1 WHIO - neither of which should be an issue at all, but of course in the real world a lot of things can happen, and Dayton signals have always been a little weird here(multipath on analog on certian channels under certian circumstances, signal levels lower than you'd expect/dead spots/etc) ... Then there's the possibility of something odd going on on their end, and I'd assume they weren't able to do much testing on 34+36 prior to today ... :end edit

I'm not climbing the tower and taking off the preamp though to find out if it's better without it, as If I actually ever need to(can't imagine why that would be, really) before they get off their STA I can decode WKEF mostly solidly and will wait and see what happens with WDYC situation regarding WRGT

Quote:
You might like the Live Bandscan for DXing. It was hugely helpful to me in determining who had moved and when. And it does send PSIP data, at least, back to the server.

- Trip
Yep, its excellent --- was looking at it last night ... on the dx'ing here, it's pretty much on the back burner with a lot of other things for doing it casually when I can, still fun though ...

Jeff

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post #15033 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 05:56 AM
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Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
At close to 11 AM after the rescan, I lost Ch. 45 from Dayton and also Ch. 22. No sign of them. Ch. 2 still is on Ch. 41 and has not moved. Ch. 7 is now on Ch. 33 and comes in fine. Still seeing Ch. 36 religious shows which suggests they have not moved yet. After that we may see Ch. 45 show up. Not sure about Ch. 22 right now since that is supposed to go to Ch. 34.

All the Cincinnati channels aside from 20/25 seem to be coming in. They may be doing their move at a later time I guess.
Yeah no 22 or 45 in Clermont County. Everything else is back that we had before the changes not including 20/25. Only improvement is WXiX. We always had a problem keeping it in with our 8 bay and amp, not sure what that was about. WCVN signal didn't change for us still good. I've not seen WDYC in a year so I lost then somewhere along the way. Are they supposed to be on 14 currently? If so I didn't see them

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post #15034 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
Looks like it depends upon band conditions/etc(tropo scatter/fading condtions/etc) whether I can tell or not ... I could tell when (likely) WRGT came up on channel, but at first was still mostly decoding WDYC solid after that(but just barely, later in the day it went to intermittent, then to just a pixellated frame from WDYC every now and then, right now I can't tell anything(other than I can't get lock on WRGT either, don't know yet if that's solely because of CCI from WDYC-LD), they may or may not be on air, currently ...



I'm assuming per your post time you were seeing Daystar/WDYC-LD on 36 after WRGT came up, (note:I believe it wasn't much after 10:15am or so when I checked and noticed the likely CCI from WRGT to WDYC-LD,), Could you(or others not as close to Dayton/Closer to WDYC/etc than I am) and/or other folks who normally receive WDYC-LD check for us check them and give us report(s) concerning whether they're still up or not when you get a chance? (thanks) ...

Yes, WDYC-LD is now off the air as of today. Sounds like I won't be able to see WRGT at all again even after they raise their power. Funny thing is I could never get WRGT until recently when I moved my antenna (Super G 1483 8 bay knock off sold by a store in Indiana) up another two feet to 20 feet.

WKEF was my strongest Dayton station here in Covington. Sounds like they will return to full power around the same time that WRGT does.

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post #15035 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by luvmyhdtv View Post
Yeah no 22 or 45 in Clermont County. Everything else is back that we had before the changes not including 20/25. Only improvement is WXiX. We always had a problem keeping it in with our 8 bay and amp, not sure what that was about. WCVN signal didn't change for us still good. I've not seen WDYC in a year so I lost then somewhere along the way. Are they supposed to be on 14 currently? If so I didn't see them
Yup. Same here in Covington a couple of miles south of downtown Cincinnati. I am getting a slightly stronger signal from WHIO now though.

What 8 bay and preamp are you using? I have a Antennacraft Super G 1483 8 bay knockoff that I bought from a store in Indiana a while back. Seems to work as well as the original 1483 that I also have but have in storage right now. Using the RCA pre amp that you can buy at Menards right now. Does a fair job at rejecting strong signals here.
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post #15036 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 08:49 AM
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I just noted Ch. 16 from Dayton is now on real Ch. 35. Since WRGT is going to be on real Ch. 36 now will this result in a directional signal from WRGT and also send weaker signal to the Cincinnati area?
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post #15037 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, WDYC-LD is now off the air as of today.
Yep, I can confirm that now too as was just able to decode PSIP and a few frames of video from WRGT with ANT aimed right at WDYC/Cincy.

Also, looks like probably have issue with the amplification on my end with WRGT/WKEF now("overload"/reduced receiver sensitivity with ANT aimed right at Dayton), as I notice better signal/better decoding of WRGT/WKEF with ANT aimed about 30 degrees or so off target towards Columbus/etc ...

When I get a chance, probably try pulling the preamp for my lower gain Dayton antenna and see what happens, been thinking about doing that anyway and putting a distribution amp of some sort in attic for it ...

WRGT TSreader cap attached ..

Quote:
Since WRGT is going to be on real Ch. 36 now will this result in a directional signal from WRGT and also send weaker signal to the Cincinnati area?
I can't look at what the situation was with the old ch 30 facility to compare, but from what I can recall I don't think WRGT's coverage area for the full power facility on 36 has changed much - It is Directional/Doesn't favor the south, but If I recall correctly I think the situation on 30 was like that too, whether it was because of the antenna pattern or the situation with WXIX on 29. There wouldn't be an issue with that involving WPTD on 35, you want co-located or nearly co-located stations to have similar power levels, instead the old issue with WXIX on 29 and WRGT on 30 was that if you were in say N KY, you had to aim right through blow torch WXIX's signal in order to try to get WRGT 30's much relatively weaker Signal, difficult for the receiver to be selective enough when there is say, a 60db difference in the 1st adjacent channel signal levels vs say 15db difference .. Same deal if you were in North dayton aiming through WRGT for WXIX (ask Paul210 about that if he's still around) .

Edit: In any event, all in all, It should be a better situation now for you without having to "aim through" Blow Torch WXIX on 29 right next door ....In other words, I'd think you'll have a better shot at WRGT when they get their full power facility built ....
Attached Files
File Type: zip wrgt36.zip (2.1 KB, 7 views)
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post #15038 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I've not seen WDYC in a year so I lost then somewhere along the way. Are they supposed to be on 14 currently? If so I didn't see them
They have a construction permit(CP) to move to 14 which expires 9/19/2021, but they don't HAVE to be on air there immediately, they have to be on air by that date(9/19/2021) or they lose the CP (unless if it gets extended for some reason/etc) ....
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post #15039 of 15068 Old 10-19-2019, 03:37 PM
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WKEF was my strongest Dayton station here in Covington. Sounds like they will return to full power around the same time that WRGT does.
Any idea when that will be?
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post #15040 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by WILWRadio View Post
Yup. Same here in Covington a couple of miles south of downtown Cincinnati. I am getting a slightly stronger signal from WHIO now though.

What 8 bay and preamp are you using? I have a Antennacraft Super G 1483 8 bay knockoff that I bought from a store in Indiana a while back. Seems to work as well as the original 1483 that I also have but have in storage right now. Using the RCA pre amp that you can buy at Menards right now. Does a fair job at rejecting strong signals here.
Using an old style CM4228 and old CM7777 amp. Both have been up for about 8-10 years. I get Cincy on the front side and Dayton off the back side.
Antenna is still in pretty good shape.

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post #15041 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 06:27 AM
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Any idea when that will be?
Nope. In an earlier post on this thread someone mentioned both WKEF and WRGT are currently running at much lower power and will do so for a while.
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post #15042 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 07:37 AM
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Nope. In an earlier post on this thread someone mentioned both WKEF and WRGT are currently running at much lower power and will do so for a while.
Thanks for the info.

Leaves me without ABC or Fox in the prime of the football season. Dammit!
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post #15043 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for the info.

Leaves me without ABC or Fox in the prime of the football season. Dammit!
WRGT and WKEF both came back for me sometime last evening. Have you scanned again this morning yet?

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post #15044 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 09:34 AM
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WRGT and WKEF both came back for me sometime last evening. Have you scanned again this morning yet?

Bill
Yea, both my Sammy TV tuner and my HDHomerun don't see them. Likely because I'm in Fairfield, near the aquatic center. Terrain issues to Cincy, 40 miles of flat ground to Dayton. Don't have the cash for a better antenna in the near future either.
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post #15045 of 15068 Old 10-20-2019, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Note: Updated first post of thread to reflect repack changes.

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Nope. In an earlier post on this thread someone mentioned both WKEF and WRGT are currently running at much lower power and will do so for a while.
FCC has given them(and WSTR and WPTO as well) extension until 4/5/2020 to build out their full power facilities ... Nothing is certain, particularly given winter is between now and then and there are many other stations needing tower crews, but I'd guess they won't want to ask for another extension ...

WCPO has extension to 4/5/2020 as well, but I assume they didn't need it as doesn't look like they filed for STA ...(They basically said they had damaged transmitter filters and didn't know if they could get new transmitter up at full power by 10/18 and might have to run a aux transmitter ... Judging by their blow torch signal here(and again no STA), I'd guess they got the new filters in ....

WDTN Dayton has extension to 1/17/2020 to move to 31, but not sure I'd count on their on-air slates/website info saying November 8 for rescan day ...

Jeff

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post #15046 of 15068 Old 10-21-2019, 06:01 PM
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https://dayton247now.com/news/local/...-45-on-your-tv

Added this recently:
PLEASE NOTE: WKEF and WRGT are operating at reduced power and a lower antenna as part of the recently mandated signal “repack”. This temporary status is due to unavoidable delays in tower crew availability required given the multiple stations across the country going through the same process. We are trying to expedite the situation and will keep you informed of changes. We appreciate your viewership and thank you for your patience.

If only they were on top of keeping us informed as Nitewatchman is!
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post #15047 of 15068 Old 10-21-2019, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for compliment bubster, but the info is publicly available from FCC website and much of it comes from the stations themselves ...

edit and rant: oh, btw, visited a certain popular social media site to look for signal reports for the stations running STAs, unfortunately very little of it was of any use. And I was also not happy to see some of our discussion here, including some of my comments here posted verbatim there(one was a complete copy and paste WILWRadio and one of my posts), In most cases obviously with little understanding of the context of the discussion here or the technical issues involved, including for the engineers and in regards to what they do ....

But, It seems to me probably the biggest thing some(or all it seemed) of those folks are missing is at least a bit of understanding about what it takes to replace a TV broadcast antenna on a 1000FT tower ... It's certainly no time to be trying to involve advertisers to put "pressure" on the stations in hopes of getting what you want(to watch NFL or whatever), which is of no consequence whatsoever vs. the safety of tower workers(the stations know this btw) ....

I'll put it another way to the folks who are reading this and posting my/our comments elsewhere --- why do you think tower crew availability is an issue? Would you do this(see video at link below) ? Do you think there are very many people who would, So you can watch NFL and all the other great programming broadcasters bring us for no subscription fee :


Maybe a waiver of some sort could be arranged so some of those folks could attempt the tower work necessary if they wish to do so

/end rant

Jeff

Last edited by Nitewatchman; 10-21-2019 at 11:26 PM. Reason: added rant
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post #15048 of 15068 Old 10-21-2019, 09:16 PM
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On Oct. 19, we lost both WSTR and PBS 14. As of earlier today both channels are coming in again.
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post #15049 of 15068 Old 10-22-2019, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
Thanks for compliment bubster, but the info is publicly available from FCC website and much of it comes from the stations themselves ...

edit and rant: oh, btw, visited a certain popular social media site to look for signal reports for the stations running STAs, unfortunately very little of it was of any use. And I was also not happy to see some of our discussion here, including some of my comments here posted verbatim there(one was a complete copy and paste WILWRadio and one of my posts), In most cases obviously with little understanding of the context of the discussion here or the technical issues involved, including for the engineers and in regards to what they do ....

But, It seems to me probably the biggest thing some(or all it seemed) of those folks are missing is at least a bit of understanding about what it takes to replace a TV broadcast antenna on a 1000FT tower ... It's certainly no time to be trying to involve advertisers to put "pressure" on the stations in hopes of getting what you want(to watch NFL or whatever), which is of no consequence whatsoever vs. the safety of tower workers(the stations know this btw) ....

I'll put it another way to the folks who are reading this and posting my/our comments elsewhere --- why do you think tower crew availability is an issue? Would you do this(see video at link below) ? Do you think there are very many people who would, So you can watch NFL and all the other great programming broadcasters bring us for no subscription fee :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1BgzIZRfT8

Maybe a waiver of some sort could be arranged so some of those folks could attempt the tower work necessary if they wish to do so

/end rant
Saw a guy painting a tower once not a job I'd want either

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post #15050 of 15068 Old 10-22-2019, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post
Maybe a waiver of some sort could be arranged so some of those folks could attempt the tower work necessary if they wish to do so
That's assuming they own their own tower. More and more stations are selling their towers to companies such as American Tower, then leasing back the space. I can't speak for every station, but in our case, renting the space was cheaper than the average annual cost of tower maintenance combined with liability insurance premiums. The latter was insane. As it was explained to me, insurance is less for American Tower as they can spread that out over a thousand towers where we just had the one (technically two). I'm sure being surrounded by residential complexes and developments didn't help, either.

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post #15051 of 15068 Old 10-22-2019, 07:36 AM
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In the 10 years since the original DTV transition, broadcaster's attitudes toward their own broadcast signals have changed dramatically.

We used to do all our transmitter/tower work in the middle of the night to minimize the number of inconvenienced viewers. Now they drop signals for hours in the middle of the day for their own convenience in minor testing or light bulb changing.

The transmitter installation's main value has become justifying the re-trans fees that flow from cable, satellite and OTT operators. If you aren't broadcasting an OTA signal you don't get that money.

BTW, it's really nice to be a spectator to all this now, instead of a participant.
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post #15052 of 15068 Old 10-22-2019, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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That's assuming they own their own tower. More and more stations are selling their towers to companies such as American Tower, then leasing back the space.
It's American Tower, I was just being silly ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by XmtrMan
The transmitter installation's main value has become justifying the re-trans fees that flow from cable, satellite and OTT operators. If you aren't broadcasting an OTA signal you don't get that money.
Yep, and even that could change ... next repack might be to all VHF, or perhaps off OTA alltogether, they could probably even save some additional difficulty regarding changing things too much by just having "virtual" coverage areas (i.e. non-existent in reality) .....

The CP extension approval letters from FCC say things like : "To the
extent some viewers are unable to receive [xxxx's] signal while it operates it interim facility, we believe
that [xxx] has every incentive to ensure viewers are fully informed about the Station’s transition plan...."

...Those are for CP extension+STA requests filed as late as 10/16/2019 from stations with a 10/18/2019 transition date, with the approval coming after 10/18 and after the channel change .....
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post #15053 of 15068 Old 10-22-2019, 05:27 PM
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My beef is that since many ordinary OTA customers like me are affected, they could simply temporarily stream their entire 24hr telecasts on their web site. I could watch the world series, Thursday and Sunday NFL, college football on Saturday via their website until the work is done.

I'm sure there are contractual issues with the almighty sports cartels, but the FCC could intervene. I'm old enough that OTA local TV is a right, not something I should have to pay a cable or satellite company for.
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post #15054 of 15068 Old 10-23-2019, 08:23 AM
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It's not just the sports cartels. Local broadcasters likely don't own streaming rights to anything outside of local programming, which most stream, already. It's also counterproductive. Why invest in the necessary equipment to not only stream, but make sure nobody outside of the OTA viewing area can access that stream? Especially when there are plenty of MPVDs who can do that FOR them and pay for the privilege? The public seems to be on board with that as "local channels" is a top must-have for any MPVD.

Even if it were possible, a temporary stream would be out of the question as it's a slap-in-the-face to broadcasters' biggest customers. You don't bite the hand that feeds you.
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post #15055 of 15068 Old 10-23-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
Why invest in the necessary equipment to not only stream, but make sure nobody outside of the OTA viewing area can access that stream
Because the little guys, like me, are getting screwed temporarily.
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post #15056 of 15068 Old 10-24-2019, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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WBQC-LD has test signal up on 28 tonight(10/24 9pm EDT), but there is no transport stream or PSIP/etc ... I have no way to ID it that I can think of, but I'm sure that's what it is ... 29db+ SNR on Hauppauge meter up here between Middletown and Germantown ....

edit: Rabbitears search map function predicts -71.65dbm/18.32db signal margin for my receive antenna location for WBQC-LD 28 .. compare to ~ -30dbm and ~60db signal margin for WRGT/WKEF's STA which I can barely get and only if i aim antenna towards Columbus(70deg az), and not Dayton(42deg az) .... WPTO is of course 1st adjacent to WBQC-LD, Isn't a problem now with WPTO's STA(which is NOT Low power), somehow I doubt that will be a problem for me for WBQC-LD when they get off the sta, fingers crossed anyway ...

(way to go Elliot and crew )

"blank" tsreader htm attached ....

Per their most recent facebook post(they're doing great job keeping viewers informed about what is going on BTW, IMHO), they still have to replace transmission line among other things ...
Attached Files
File Type: zip wbqcldnots.zip (737 Bytes, 3 views)
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Last edited by Nitewatchman; 10-24-2019 at 07:08 PM.
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post #15057 of 15068 Old 10-24-2019, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Update: oops! How dumb(above) ... Guess I should've closed winTV with Doc Martin Paused on WPTO 14.1 before trying to decode WBQC-LD with TSreader with the same tuner ... Turns out the transport stream and PSIP IS up from WBQC-LD currently, and SNR from them on hauppauge meter is 31db+ ... Tsreader HTM attached ...

edit: added a "clean" tsreader cap as wbqcld28-2.zip (other one has TEI errors and junk elementary streams/pids prob from the doc martin thing, maybe Doc's favorite dog buddy jumped through the signal path or something )
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File Type: zip wbqcld28.zip (15.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: zip wbqcld28-2.zip (3.1 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by Nitewatchman; 10-24-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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post #15058 of 15068 Old 10-24-2019, 07:24 PM
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WBQC coming in here tonight in Kettering, Oh. Rare for these parts but that's what I bought the CM 4228 for. It was a long shot but it may just pay off now.
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post #15059 of 15068 Old 11-02-2019, 03:44 PM
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Maybe someone posted this and I missed it back some time ago. WSTR added a new lifestyle network called DABL. I didn't catch it until I did the rescan and realized it was there this weekend

Sling Tv since it started watching on Roku 3, 47" Vizio 3D Tv with Philips 3D Dvd player, Gateway 3.6Ghz - 2Tb computer for home theatre setup
Old style CM4228 and 91XG antennas for OTA from Cincinnati and Dayton
 
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post #15060 of 15068 Old 11-05-2019, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim58hsv View Post
WBQC coming in here tonight in Kettering, Oh. Rare for these parts but that's what I bought the CM 4228 for. It was a long shot but it may just pay off now.
They've been up/down quite a bit with their tower work, and currently also have a new problem, but given the old co-channel issue(on 20) with them and WLWD-LD Dayton isn't an issue now, I'd say you got a good shot of getting them regularly(at least except times when WSYX(see below) may blast in via enhanced tropo) when they're able to operate normally ...

I do wonder about possibility regarding potential interference to co-channel WSYX's (columbus,) service area though ... The two stations 41dbu contours(noise limited for full service, UHF LP's have 51dbu service contour,) get awfully close to one another, especially around ceasar's creek area(actually they're somewhat close in Kettering area too, which is outside both stations 41dbu contour).... It's all been Ok'ed by FCC etc regarding the specs of WBQC's CP and facilities on 28(they just filed for license to cover today, btw), but given they are an LP, I suppose one never knows regarding this sort of thing if its getting out a little better than expected or something ....
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