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post #14161 of 17817 Old 09-05-2016, 11:34 PM
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Thanks, Stephen. My lists have been updated.

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My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.larrykenney.com/sfonair.html
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post #14162 of 17817 Old 09-06-2016, 12:33 AM
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Thumbs down KNTV good most of time, but really bad on rare occasion

I cannot understand 90% of what most of you post.

KNTV is good 99% of the time, but when it's bad it is severe. Total screen tiling and freezing.
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post #14163 of 17817 Old 09-06-2016, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
The requirement to identify the station may now be the tsid which is unique for each station.

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=tsid

But "K38JP" is not in the list. I remember that the RabbitEars list is needed as the FCC does not list the "tsid" for stations.

There are gaps in both the SALINAS CA and MONTEREY CA numbering. The "tsid" could be determined by a HDHR scan if anyone down there has one.
TSID values are assigned by the FCC and are contained within the FCC database, however:

1) Only odd numbers are assigned to digital TV stations.

2) Only full-power stations were originally assigned TSIDs. Any other station has to request one, and many LPTV and Class A stations have not. Those who have not often use 0, 1, or a made up TSID.

3) I make the TSID available either in the TSReader data provided on RabbitEars or, for many stations, it is included under the "Technical Data" dropdown for each station. At some point, I added an "observed TSID" field for stations who were not assigned a TSID by the FCC.

- Trip
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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #14164 of 17817 Old 09-06-2016, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
The requirement to identify the station may now be the tsid which is unique for each station.

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=tsid

But "K38JP" is not in the list. I remember that the RabbitEars list is needed as the FCC does not list the "tsid" for stations.

There are gaps in both the SALINAS CA and MONTEREY CA numbering. The "tsid" could be determined by a HDHR scan if anyone down there has one.

Could the Analog Channel be 56 not 59? "K56AA" came up in the FCC "Call Sign History".

SHF

Rabbitears shows K56AA in the channel history for K38JP. My TV shows K38JP-D as the station. Channel 59 MCAET is probably just a TiVo error and shouldn't be in the list since there are no Salinas stations in my list.

Is it the policy now that stations don't have to identify on-screen anymore since they have the ID in the PSIP info?

Chuck
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post #14165 of 17817 Old 09-06-2016, 10:15 AM
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Thumbs down KNTV report for this morning

KNTV worsening. Video blanking and freezing. Total screen tiling. But okay 90% of the time.
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post #14166 of 17817 Old 09-06-2016, 03:05 PM
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ATTENTION KNTV: Please completely fix your signal

Two sample screen shots.
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post #14167 of 17817 Old 09-08-2016, 01:24 AM
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That TV needs an exorcist ...
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post #14168 of 17817 Old 09-08-2016, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
That TV needs an exorcist ...


Same pattern appears on all three 4k sets. Send over three exorcists, and send a fourth exorcist to KNTV.
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post #14169 of 17817 Old 09-08-2016, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeninsulaMark View Post
Same pattern appears on all three 4k sets. Send over three exorcists, and send a fourth exorcist to KNTV.
More like an axeman!!!

Bobby 

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post #14170 of 17817 Old 09-08-2016, 02:06 PM
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Attached are 11 AM and 12 PM one hour tests for KNTV.
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post #14171 of 17817 Old 09-09-2016, 04:11 PM
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Apparently the huge spike a few days ago reduced the KNTV data display.

Take another look and cry.

http://ruka.org/~toast/atscdata/chart.php?c=12

SHF

EDIT: Midnight to Noon appears to be worse than Noon to Midnight.


Why?

Last edited by SFischer1; 09-09-2016 at 07:56 PM.
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post #14172 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 10:50 AM
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I've given up on KTVU's translator on 48. Nearly every morning, trying to watch the morning news, I have signal quality of ~90% and yet Sage says "No Signal" on a black screen. From time to time it will come in and out with bad tiling. Throughout the day it will go dead as well, though it's worst in the mornings. I pulled up toast0's charts for 44 and 48 for the last ten weeks, and clearly it's not just on my end.

It's frustrating to have a signal so close, yet so poor (and they either don't seem to be aware of it or don't care). It seems really odd that they'd bother setting up a translator and have it operate so poorly, but I'm very new to all this.
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post #14173 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 02:04 PM
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First, KTVU VC 2 RF 48 is not a translator as it is fed directly and does not receive RF 44 from Sutro, unless they have changed it.

Second, my antenna is pointed at Sutro but my antenna has a little lobe pointed at Monument Pk. That may be part of my inability to receive KTVU VC 2 RF 48 perfectly. During the one hour test the HDHR tuner lost the signal ("tttt") many times.

Please add your ZIP Code to your Location so I can check your location.

It does look non- usable.

SHF
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post #14174 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
First, KTVU VC 2 RF 48 is not a translator as it is fed directly and does not receive RF 44 from Sutro, unless they have changed it.

Second, my antenna is pointed at Sutro but my antenna has a little lobe pointed at Monument Pk. That may be part of my inability to receive KTVU VC 2 RF 48 perfectly. During the one hour test the HDHR tuner lost the signal ("tttt") many times.

Please add your ZIP Code to your Location so I can check your location.

It does look non- usable.

SHF
My mistake. The toast0 page calls it a "translator" and the wiki page calls it "a digital fill-in translator on UHF channel 48" so I assumed that's what it was without fully knowing what that means.

We're in the same zip code (94087); I've updated my location. I'm near Fremont/Mary. As it often the case, the channel is working better now, though I haven't run your script on it today since I've been working. I should have set it up this morning and let it run. I will try to do so tomorrow morning.
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post #14175 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haus123 View Post
My mistake. The toast0 page calls it a "translator" and the wiki page calls it "a digital fill-in translator on UHF channel 48" so I assumed that's what it was without fully knowing what that means.

....
I cannot find anything that supports my statement that KTVU VC 2 RF 48 is fed directly.

Looking at Toast0's graph it sure looks like it is fed from Sutro RF 44.

If I have the time I will connect my spare antenna and point it at KTVU VC 2 RF 48 to see if that eliminates the dropouts.

SHF
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post #14176 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
If I have the time I will connect my spare antenna and point it at KTVU VC 2 RF 48 to see if that eliminates the dropouts.
SHF
That would be interesting. We could run your script at the same time (though I'm guessing you have multiple HDHRs as well) and compare the results. I just ran the script from 2:15 to 3pm and only a few "o's" showed up, but the picture was solid as I made my way through the output .ts file.
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post #14177 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 07:15 PM
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KTVU VC 2 RF 35 is fine

First, Toast0's graphs for KTVU VC 2 RF 48 cannot be trusted. His antenna is pointed in the wrong direction.

Second, the little lobe on my main antenna directed toward Mt. Allison and Monument Pk is too weak and the RF 35 transmitter power is too low to overcome that. So my tests with my main antenna also cannot be trusted.

I connected my Terk HDTVa up and pointed it to the strongest signal.

http://www.terk.com/indoor-antennas/?sku=HDTVA

Except for eight dropouts that likely are airplanes overhead, taking off from SJC or coming in to land at SFO between Mt. Allison and Monument Pk the test is clear.

The Terk HDTVa is on the second floor on top of a bookcase close to the ceiling just under the metal roof.

Strangely the strongest direction is to the South East, the same that I need to point another antenna for KQEH also to the North East.



Now if I had the FCC mandated outdoor antenna thirty (30) feet above my roof KNTV VC 2 RF 48 would come in just fine.

As you can see even my main antenna (Pointed in the wrong direction) does not follow that.


https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...93&cat=2165469

SHF
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Last edited by SFischer1; 09-11-2016 at 10:09 PM. Reason: OPPS, Forgot the link for my antenna.
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post #14178 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 10:46 PM
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If you can, run that test between 6:30 and 7:30am tomorrow? I will do the same if I have time.

I think it's cutting out from time to time. If not, then something is causing serious signal issues at random times for me, usually in the mornings. It is normally fine in the evenings.

Edit: PSIP is missing literally this moment as I tried to tune with HDHR. So strange. 89% signal quality, 75% signal strength, and no PSIP. I'm mystified.

and RF44 has PSIP with 70% signal strength and 83% signal strength.

Last edited by haus123; 09-11-2016 at 10:49 PM.
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post #14179 of 17817 Old 09-11-2016, 11:29 PM
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Your message about no further testing seems to have disappeared. I guess it's my antenna then, if the signal is perfect. I'm surprised the PSIP information can just vanish for a period of time and then come back out of the blue. My signal quality from HDHR isn't great (high 80% to 90% typically) but it is stable. I'll try RF44 and hopefully it'll just work better for me until I can get a better antenna. I'm just surprised a signal coming from only 14 miles away seems to be perfect so much of the time and then completely disappears at times.

Here's the output from a short while ago - I started the script when I noticed the PSIP was missing.

10209027 /tuner0
Sun 09/11/2016 - 21:50:07.55
auto:48
none

ch=auto:48 lock=8vsb ss=75 snq=90 seq=100 bps=19392576 pps=0
tun: ch=auto:48 lock=8vsb:677000000 ss=75 snq=87 seq=100 dbg=12326-10106-1416/-1
dev: bps=19392576 resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=19392576 te=0 miss=212717 crc=2
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=0

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........ssss.ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss ssssssssss.s.ssssss.ssssssssssssssss.sssssssssssss ssssssssssss.....s.ssss.sss..s.........s.....ss... ....s..s....ssssssss.ss........................... .................................................. ssss.ssss.sssssssssss............................. ....................
-- Video statistics --
1879818 packets received, 0 overflow errors, 0 network errors, 0 transport errors, 1435840 sequence errors
ch=auto:48 lock=8vsb ss=75 snq=89 seq=100 bps=7697472 pps=0
tun: ch=auto:48 lock=8vsb:677000000 ss=75 snq=88 seq=100 dbg=12516-10117-1403/-1
dev: bps=19394080 resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=7697472 te=0 miss=2683631 crc=2769
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=1

Sun 09/11/2016 - 22:12:39.89
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post #14180 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 08:55 AM
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And KTVU RF48 is perfect this morning (90 minute test), go figure.
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post #14181 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
First, Toast0's graphs for KTVU VC 2 RF 48 cannot be trusted. His antenna is pointed in the wrong direction.

Second, the little lobe on my main antenna directed toward Mt. Allison and Monument Pk is too weak and the RF 35 transmitter power is too low to overcome that. So my tests with my main antenna also cannot be trusted.

I connected my Terk HDTVa up and pointed it to the strongest signal.

http://www.terk.com/indoor-antennas/?sku=HDTVA

Except for eight dropouts that likely are airplanes overhead, taking off from SJC or coming in to land at SFO between Mt. Allison and Monument Pk the test is clear.

The Terk HDTVa is on the second floor on top of a bookcase close to the ceiling just under the metal roof.

Strangely the strongest direction is to the South East, the same that I need to point another antenna for KQEH also to the North East.



Now if I had the FCC mandated outdoor antenna thirty (30) feet above my roof KNTV VC 2 RF 48 would come in just fine.

As you can see even my main antenna (Pointed in the wrong direction) does not follow that.


https://www.avsforum.com/photopost/sh...93&cat=2165469

SHF

I'm going to remember this as a testimonial to how bad indoor antennas really are.

TV Fool for central Sunnyvale shows KTVU on 48 with a 42 dB Noise Margin with 3.4KW ERP at a distance of 11 miles. My TV Fool report shows KMMW on 28 with a 30 dB Noise Margin with 253 watts at a distance of 14 miles. I've measured KMMW with a Noise Margin of 43 dB. If KMMW had just 1/4 watt ERP it would still have a 13 dB Noise Margin here. It's hard for me to find a direction to point the antenna where I can't receive KMMW.

I used to live in Sunnyvale and the stations above Fremont were ridiculously strong. It's hard to believe that it's possible not to receive any station from that location anywhere in the south bay that can see the transmitter.

Chuck
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post #14182 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
I'm going to remember this as a testimonial to how bad indoor antennas really are.
...
Chuck
Remember that the TERK HDTVa is a directional antenna so some indoor multipath is reduced.

The HDHR HDHomeRun Config (GUI) allows you to see the Signal Strength, Signal Quality and Symbol Quality in addition to the actual video and audio (VLC Media Player) so you can find the best direction to point the antenna as you move it.

These two items greatly improve the possibility of getting a usable signal.

Code:
FOLDER    KTVU FOX 2 News at Noon

FILE    KTVU FOX 2 News at Noon--44.3-KTVUDT-16_09_12-1200-HR10406FE2(0).tp    4,087,062,528    tp
FILE    KTVU FOX 2 News at Noon--48.3-KTVUDT-16_09_12-1200-HR101A7308(1).tp    4,093,603,840    tp


Karen Kenworthy has passed on.


http://karen-s-directory-printer.sof...ormer.com/5.3/
The RF 48 capture is a little larger as it started first. It was as good as it gets.

SHF
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post #14183 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 05:14 PM
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When the signal cuts out completely (black screen, no image at all), is it unusual for the HDHR signal strength, quality, and symbol quality values to remain unchanged (within 2-3%)?
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post #14184 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haus123 View Post
When the signal cuts out completely (black screen, no image at all), is it unusual for the HDHR signal strength, quality, and symbol quality values to remain unchanged (within 2-3%)?
I see both, unchanged or changing. The longer dropouts usually show in both the HDHomeRun Config (GUI) and the (Hopefully) sea of dots.

I had hoped to use the TERK HDTVa for KQEH VC 54 RF 50 but I am seeing the same dropouts as the MyHD with a different tabletop (Samsung desktop antenna I got from MCI at a closeout price before it was even placed online or in stores) pointed in the same wrong direction.

I suspect airplanes in both cases. I have no current good method for capturing VC 54.3.

Pointing the TERK HDTVa in a different direction is the plan.

SHF
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post #14185 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I see both, unchanged or changing. The longer dropouts usually show in both the HDHomeRun Config (GUI) and the (Hopefully) sea of dots.
Okay. I need to have the script handy for the next time I see KTVU disappear here. So far what I've seen using the config tool is signal strength in the 70-80 range, quality 90-ish, and symbol quality is always 100%. Then the picture goes completely blank or tiles like crazy, but the values in the bar graphs never change significantly, even when there's no picture. HDHR seems to think everything is fine but there's no picture. And of course KICU comes in perfectly all the time (same tower I think?).

Perhaps the lengthy outages are a series of planes flying over in the mornings in succession. SFO has been routing planes over Sunnyvale from time to time, and SJC brings them overhead when they switch to a southern departure pattern.
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post #14186 of 17817 Old 09-12-2016, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haus123 View Post
...
Perhaps the lengthy outages are a series of planes flying over in the mornings in succession. SFO has been routing planes over Sunnyvale from time to time, and SJC brings them overhead when they switch to a southern departure pattern.

As I said, the planes from the East come between ~ Mt. Allison and Monument Pk.

Google "sfo flight tracker"

There are many websites showing the airplanes arriving and departing SFO and SJC.

Google "sfo airplane noise flight tracker" if you have a fast computer and Internet. The last time I tried to use it my Internet speed was not fast enough. I think that may be the best one and the most fun. (VOLANS)

When I first moved in ~ 1971 at Noon there were thirty (30) Russian Sub Hunters coming in to land right overhead and thirty more in the Evening. One right after another for 30 minutes.

SHF
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post #14187 of 17817 Old 09-13-2016, 09:17 AM
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A word on airplanes.....

If you have line-of-sight to the transmitters (not an indoor antenna or an outdoor antenna blocked by trees or buildings) then airplanes are not a problem. The reflected signal is too weak compared to the LOS signal. If you have a 1 or 2 edge path or the signal is otherwise attenuated somehow then airplanes can cause large swings in signal strength as the reflection off the plane adds and subtracts from the main path signal. Airplane reflections tend to come and go because planes are typically above any inversions so the signal that makes it to the plane and back down to the ground varies.

Airplane multipath sometimes affects the signals from Sutro Tower here but it's very intermittent.

Here's an animation I made some years ago of what airplane reflections look like on the spectrum analyzer on KGO when the signal was weak.

http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif

The reflections are when the display looks like a sine wave of changing frequency.

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post #14188 of 17817 Old 09-13-2016, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
A word on airplanes.....

If you have line-of-sight to the transmitters (not an indoor antenna or an outdoor antenna blocked by trees or buildings) then airplanes are not a problem. The reflected signal is too weak compared to the LOS signal. If you have a 1 or 2 edge path or the signal is otherwise attenuated somehow then airplanes can cause large swings in signal strength as the reflection off the plane adds and subtracts from the main path signal. Airplane reflections tend to come and go because planes are typically above any inversions so the signal that makes it to the plane and back down to the ground varies.

Airplane multipath sometimes affects the signals from Sutro Tower here but it's very intermittent.

Here's an animation I made some years ago of what airplane reflections look like on the spectrum analyzer on KGO when the signal was weak.

http://images.aa6g.org/AVSForums/KGO-Animation-3.gif

The reflections are when the display looks like a sine wave of changing frequency.

Chuck
Larry a decade or so ago told me to get a better antenna and a stronger cleaner signal just like you are saying when I complained about airplanes.

At the time Sutro was on the temporary HDTV antennas and I had a four bay bow tie antenna with a pre amp on a rotor in my attic. The VHF Hi-Lo antenna pointed at Sutro was tied up with string. Sutro moved the HDTV antennas to the top, I got a metal roof allowing my dream antenna to be installed, a CM4228HD (333 miles round trip to Roseville to get it at Fry's, the bay area was sold out). Problem solved.

I asked for a pre amp and got a $$$ low noise one, the installers eight (8) way splitter did not work so the installer grabbed the eight (8) way distribution amplifier which gave me a great system.

The catch is that the one antenna I am allowed is pointed toward Sutro and has just a little reception towards Mt. Allison and Monument Pk. None toward Mt. Diablo. KQEH only has 54.3 that I wish.

Thus the fun and games with the TERK HDTVa and the Samsung desktop antenna for 54.3. Note, they are in my Western room on the second floor. If they would be in the Eastern room all would be fine.

What would be your plan if the only antenna you were allowed was one on a 30 foot mast on top of your house?

SHF
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post #14189 of 17817 Old 09-13-2016, 02:52 PM
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What would be your plan if the only antenna you were allowed was one on a 30 foot mast on top of your house?

SHF

Add a rotor.

Chuck
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post #14190 of 17817 Old 09-13-2016, 10:53 PM
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I somebody watching us?

I noticed that KTVU VC 2 RF 48 on Toast0's graph showed errors disappearing September 11, 2016 at ~ 11 PM.

That is not to say what is happening between the samples which are thirty (30) minutes apart, but something may have changed. I will be checking the Noon and Ten PM news for a few days before changing the antenna to pick up KQEH.

Now KNTV VC 11 RF 12 shows a change today, September 13, 2016 ~ 8: 30 AM. Missed Packets has dropped to zero.

Again remember that samples are thirty (30) minutes apart.

---------------------------

Could it be that stations are reducing their costs by laying off people, the highest cost people that know what they are doing? I don't think KNTV is going anywhere and the same for KTVU but nationwide the will be lots of pink slips at some point in time.

The Reverse Auction Bidding Stage 2 started today. My understanding is also in Reverse, but then it never was in Forward anyway.

SHF
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