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post #14281 of 17605 Old 11-12-2016, 10:03 PM
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hi all, so my cord is now cut. tivo premiere 4 is my tuner/dvr.

and i seem to have a boatload of channels.

wanted to say thanks for the help. this was a new area for me.

although now i wonder... what next? are there ways to tell how strong my signal is, and if i tweak antenna direction a bit can i grab a few more channels...

you know... tweak it all.

i went with a Solid Signal HDB4X
its about 20' off ground level. with a pretty clear view. some trees, but no buildings.
im located pretty much at the intersection of the 85 and the 17 freeway.
antenna is pointed at about 350 degrees.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...e2cb82b38948f9


now if only there was a cheaper internet option than comcast!

Thanks again

just hanging out, rollin with the flow.
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post #14282 of 17605 Old 11-14-2016, 07:08 AM
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although now i wonder... what next? are there ways to tell how strong my signal is, and if i tweak antenna direction a bit can i grab a few more channels...

Are there any channels on the TV Fool list that you're not receiving that you want? If not then you're done.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 11-14-2016 at 10:16 AM.
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post #14283 of 17605 Old 11-16-2016, 07:18 PM
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KNTV 11.2 audio sequencing errors

Though 11.1 has been behaving itself well for a while, I've been consistently noticing audio sequencing problems on 11.2. It appears that periodically an audio packet is occasionally sent out-of-sequence. Some tuners (like the one on my PC) just drop the packet and play silence, and some tuners (like my TiVo) play the packet out of sequence, and then again when it's correctly in-sequence, which is always exactly the same amount of time later (~4 seconds).

This happens at random intervals, usually 2-3 times during a 30-minute program.

Makes Murder, She Wrote and Knight Rider a little confusing at times :-)

Anyone else noticing the same thing? This is the only channel where I see this behavior, and from multiple tuners.
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post #14284 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Nicklas Johnson View Post
Though 11.1 has been behaving itself well for a while, I've been consistently noticing audio sequencing problems on 11.2. It appears that periodically an audio packet is occasionally sent out-of-sequence. Some tuners (like the one on my PC) just drop the packet and play silence, and some tuners (like my TiVo) play the packet out of sequence, and then again when it's correctly in-sequence, which is always exactly the same amount of time later (~4 seconds).

This happens at random intervals, usually 2-3 times during a 30-minute program.

Makes Murder, She Wrote and Knight Rider a little confusing at times :-)

Anyone else noticing the same thing? This is the only channel where I see this behavior, and from multiple tuners.
SHF, I got your message but as I mostly lurk and don't post, I haven't crossed the threshold of # of posts needed to be able to reply to you privately.

I see the problem quite consistently, every day, and have for months. Each glitch lasts only maybe 0.5-1 second at most, and is a displacement of about 4 seconds when it happens, which is only about 2-3 times in 30 minutes. It's short and very easy to miss, but very noticeable if/when you catch it.

I think it would be necessary to sample continuously for at least half an hour to catch it happening because of how unpredictable and transient it is.

At the time that it happens, SNR is excellent, there are no apparent blips on either KNTV or any other channels, no planes flying by, etc. Both tuners will glitch at the same time. It will happen at any time of day, always at seemingly-random intervals spaced 5-25 minutes apart. And it's only 11.2 exhibiting this behavior.

I've seen a few other posts here of people noticing the same thing for the last year or so as well. Most of the signs point to it not being a problem at my locale, though I can't definitively prove that it's not.

If I had the right equipment/software I'd be happy to sample for a while to get better data, but I doubt my old Hauppauge card is capable.
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post #14285 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 11:29 AM
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SHF, I got your message but as I mostly lurk and don't post, I haven't crossed the threshold of # of posts needed to be able to reply to you privately.

I see the problem quite consistently, every day, and have for months. Each glitch lasts only maybe 0.5-1 second at most, and is a displacement of about 4 seconds when it happens, which is only about 2-3 times in 30 minutes. It's short and very easy to miss, but very noticeable if/when you catch it.

I think it would be necessary to sample continuously for at least half an hour to catch it happening because of how unpredictable and transient it is.

At the time that it happens, SNR is excellent, there are no apparent blips on either KNTV or any other channels, no planes flying by, etc. Both tuners will glitch at the same time. It will happen at any time of day, always at seemingly-random intervals spaced 5-25 minutes apart. And it's only 11.2 exhibiting this behavior.

I've seen a few other posts here of people noticing the same thing for the last year or so as well. Most of the signs point to it not being a problem at my locale, though I can't definitively prove that it's not.

If I had the right equipment/software I'd be happy to sample for a while to get better data, but I doubt my old Hauppauge card is capable.
I watched a Quincy, M.E from last week and saw no problems.

I am unable do capture a full stream capture and run TSReader Free to analyze it.

Toast0's chart showing no problems with it's samples ~ 30 minutes usually shows what I would find with a long capture of ~ 30 - 60 minutes. If your Hauppauge card can do any captures to disk TSReader Free could be used. My Tuners all have capture ability, I watch very little Live DTV anymore.

Please post a link to tour TVFool so the experts have a starting point for their efforts. Your antenna, cable runs, splitters, amps and so on. Any tall buildings / hills nearby, just your zip code would help. Is your antenna moving in the wind or the cables?

SHF
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post #14286 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 12:03 PM
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If your Hauppauge card can do any captures to disk TSReader Free could be used. My Tuners all have capture ability, I watch very little Live DTV anymore.

Please post a link to tour TVFool so the experts have a starting point for their efforts. Your antenna, cable runs, splitters, amps and so on. Any tall buildings / hills nearby, just your zip code would help. Is your antenna moving in the wind or the cables?

SHF
Here's the tvfool report for my location: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dfafc97e019e86

I will look at TSReader Free once I'm at home in front of the computer again; it'll always be best to show actual data, naturally.

My antenna is a simple RCA log periodic, but without the preamp installed (because of our proximity to San Bruno mountain and Mount Sutro, having the preamp inline *always* overloaded the preamp, so I removed it from the signal path completely years ago). The antenna is on top of a 16' mast which is mounted to the chimney and guyed to the roof at both 8' and 16' up the mast. There is about a 20 foot cable run (RG-6) to a single splitter in the attic, and then about a 15 foot cable run to each receiver (also RG-6). Signal strength is excellent from both receivers.

The mounting/guying on the antenna is pretty solid; it's fairly still even with 40+ MPH wind gusts. No tall buildings nearby, and the mast gets the antenna up over our neighbors' rooftops. SFO is in somewhat close proximity, and we get an occasional glitch from passing plane (presumably caused by varying multipath), however these take the form of both audio and video glitching for several seconds from lost/garbled data, rather than what we see on 11.2, which is just this very short burst of audio received out-of-order, not accompanied by any loss in signal strength nor any problems with the video (also unlike the problems 11.1 had a few months ago where they were sending video frames out of order, which made a terrible visual mess).

Maybe I can pull off a recording of Murder She Wrote from my TiVo and upload it to YouTube to give an example of what the problem sounds like. It may make more sense than my trying to describe it in words.
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post #14287 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicklas Johnson View Post
Here's the tvfool report for my location: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...dfafc97e019e86

I will look at TSReader Free once I'm at home in front of the computer again; it'll always be best to show actual data, naturally.

...
Maybe I can pull off a recording of Murder She Wrote from my TiVo and upload it to YouTube to give an example of what the problem sounds like. It may make more sense than my trying to describe it in words.
You would need a Murder She Wrote fan or two to watch which might be hard to find. I stopped after two programs. I get my murder fill with: http://watch.mhzchoice.com/

It is just some programs on Cozi that you watch? I have heard audio glitches in the past so my checking of Quincy, M.E was watching the speakers lips and just am aware when something is wrong with any program.

SHF
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post #14288 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 12:49 PM
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You would need a Murder She Wrote fan or two to watch which might be hard to find. I stopped after two programs. I get my murder fill with: http://watch.mhzchoice.com/

It is just some programs on Cozi that you watch? I have heard audio glitches in the past so my checking of Quincy, M.E was watching the speakers lips and just am aware when something is wrong with any program.
SHF
How could anyone not love Jessica Fletcher though! Well, maybe unless you're getting a little suspicious of her that someone seems to drop dead of murder around her every single day. What are the odds? FWIW, my other guilty pleasure from Cozi is Knight Rider (the hair!), during which I've also observed the same problem.

I've heard the glitch both during programs and commercials, but exclusively on Cozi. My other go-to channels for all the cheesy crap I grew up watching (e.g., 20.2, 4.3, 5.2, 36.4, 38.4, 28.10) don't suffer the same trouble. (28.10 has very weird problems of its own, but that's a tale for a different thread.)
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post #14289 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 01:19 PM
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How could anyone not love Jessica Fletcher though! Well, maybe unless you're getting a little suspicious of her that someone seems to drop dead of murder around her every single day. What are the odds? FWIW, my other guilty pleasure from Cozi is Knight Rider (the hair!), during which I've also observed the same problem.

I've heard the glitch both during programs and commercials, but exclusively on Cozi. My other go-to channels for all the cheesy crap I grew up watching (e.g., 20.2, 4.3, 5.2, 36.4, 38.4, 28.10) don't suffer the same trouble. (28.10 has very weird problems of its own, but that's a tale for a different thread.)
Googling "cozi audio sync issues" produced this quote from last year:

"I'm seeing the same thing lately. Like they are playing it at 1.5x or 2x to gain some commercial time."

And other helpful / unhelpful comments in general.

Quote:
no planes flying by
That's not what TV Fool Google map suggests for your Zip code.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

Click "Show lines pointing to each transmitter"

As you say just Cozi then it is likely not your problem but somewhere up the chain to the original programs.

SHF
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post #14290 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 01:30 PM
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I found this somewhat vague comment that sounds like it could be describing the same problem, but it's a little too vague (and without a follow-up) to be sure:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-loc...ing-again.html

We definitely get the occasional passing plane at our location, but 85% of the time they don't cause problems; when they do, it's a total/massive signal breakup for several seconds, followed by everything going back to normal again. (It was actually worse when I had the antenna up only about 8 feet above the roof; getting it up a little higher over the rooftops seemed to help somewhat, perhaps by virtue of starting out with a cleaner signal versus starting out with a signal that already had multipath from a few other sources.) There's a good 2-minute break in between planes, though, and I've made a point of checking whether any were coming in to land at times when I've been watching live and observed the audio trouble. (That's what I meant when I said it's happened without planes going by.)

I strongly suspect that the problem is either with 11.2's encoding, or possibly with their reception from whatever satellite feed they're getting from Cozi. It might be interesting to know/notice whether the audio ever glitches during local commercials versus network commercials (but sometimes it is hard to know the difference).

If it's an encoding issue, then I will hopefully see it in TSReader. It looks like they _do_ support my tuner card, so I'll try to set that up tonight or this weekend.
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post #14291 of 17605 Old 11-17-2016, 04:09 PM
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I found this somewhat vague comment that sounds like it could be describing the same problem, but it's a little too vague (and without a follow-up) to be sure:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-loc...ing-again.html

...
I believe we here sorted that out and another KNTV problem also.

SHF
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post #14292 of 17605 Old 11-18-2016, 12:41 AM
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I just bought a 65-inch Sony 850D 4K TV and it has the best picture I've ever seen on a TV, PLUS the tuner is fantastic! On you first scan I got a list of 113 stations, and that doesn't include any from Walnut Grove. It blew me away! My VHF Yagi/XG91 were pointed in the direction of 205 degrees and included in my list were channels 1, 22, 27, 42 and 52. How 'bout that?!?

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post #14293 of 17605 Old 11-18-2016, 07:19 AM
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I just bought a 65-inch Sony 850D 4K TV and it has the best picture I've ever seen on a TV, PLUS the tuner is fantastic! On you first scan I got a list of 113 stations, and that doesn't include any from Walnut Grove. It blew me away! My VHF Yagi/XG91 were pointed in the direction of 205 degrees and included in my list were channels 1, 22, 27, 42 and 52. How 'bout that?!?

Larry

I have the 850C so we have almost the same TV. I think the picture is great too. I found the tuner to be slightly more sensitive and somewhat better at handling multipath. SNRs are often a couple dB higher on multipath impaired stations. Sounds like it's also better in strong signal environments.

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post #14294 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 03:24 PM
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although now i wonder... what next? are there ways to tell how strong my signal is, and if i tweak antenna direction a bit can i grab a few more channels...

Are there any channels on the TV Fool list that you're not receiving that you want? If not then you're done.

Chuck

Only one I seem to notice I don't get is ABC. I looked today to see if the Stanford game was on it. Tried plugging in 7.1 and tuner identified or as ABC 7... But nothing.
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post #14295 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 03:41 PM
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I thought your antenna might not be VHF capable, but checking the Solid Signal site it says it is. KGO is the only station transmitting from Sutro Tower that is on VHF, so maybe your antenna needs to be peaked a bit on the direction it's pointing. A little change can make a difference.

The other option is to try turning the antenna a bit to the east to pick up channel 7 on channel 35 from their translator on the hills above Fremont. Do you receive channels 1, 14, 27, 36, 48 or 54? Those also come from that same general direction. Be careful that you don't lose the stations transmitting from Sutro or Mt. San Bruno, though.

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post #14296 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 05:41 PM
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So when you say channels 1, 14, 27, 36, 48 or 54, are you talking about virtual channels? (sorry, I'm still super new to all of this. )
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post #14297 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 05:57 PM
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i get KTVU 2.1 clear as a bell. so its likely something i have to fiddle with.

just hanging out, rollin with the flow.
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post #14298 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 10:18 PM
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So when you say channels 1, 14, 27, 36, 48 or 54, are you talking about virtual channels? (sorry, I'm still super new to all of this. )
Check Larry's sig for a link to his great Bay Area Station list.

You will find all those Virtual Channels in the South Bay. I just checked it to verify a couple of stations I do not watch are in the South Bay (Mt. Allison and Monument Pk)

Enter your address into "TV Fool Google map" and then click on "Show lines pointing to each transmitter" which is a great tool I use often. (Zoom out!)

See KGO VC 7 RF 35 which is on Mt. Allison.

SHF
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post #14299 of 17605 Old 11-19-2016, 10:47 PM
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Again apologies if I am confusing terminology.

I pointed my antenna to the east a bit (about 10 degrees now as opposed to about 355 before) so that I can get the kgo rebroadcast at 35. So here is the question... Will my TiVo show it at 7 or 35?
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post #14300 of 17605 Old 11-20-2016, 01:13 AM
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I'm not familiar with TiVo, but most tuners show the virtual channel, so it should show 7 whether you're receiving 7 from Sutro Tower or 35 from Mt. Allison.

When you turned your antenna did you lose any stations or did you just gain some?

Larry

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post #14301 of 17605 Old 11-20-2016, 04:25 AM
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TiVo will identify KGO off of RF35 as KGO35. (This is post-TiVo transition to Rovi PGD. It used to be know. As KGOLD in the Tribune/Gracenote days). The RF7 channel is I believe identified as KGODT. One way to check your reception is through the antenna signal strength screen (settings -> channels).

Note that TiVo has been having a rough time with multiple channels aliased to the same display channel number (7-1 and 2-1). Especially if you use the mobile app, it gets them confused and you'll see two 7-1 KGO35 instead of one 7-1 KGO35 and one 7-1 KGODT. I've also had problems setting up OnePasses on the DVR where the OnePass will get assigned to the wrong channel. PM me if you run into this. I've been bugging TiVo about it.

I live in Mountain View and have a CM4228HD pointed at Sutro and a DB4e pointed towards Fremont to get 7-1 (RF35) and 36-1. 7-1 comes in well from Sutro consistently. RF35 is a lot more variable, often comes in with severe blocking, but occasionally comes in better. (I'm writing my own DVR SW based on HDHomeruns and often spend a lot of time looking at the frequency of dropped transport packets. About 20% of the time the RF35 recordings are pristine with no transport packets dropped. In comparison equivalent recordings on RF7 tend to be clean about 75% of the time.)
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post #14302 of 17605 Old 11-20-2016, 06:54 AM
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In my TiVo channel list I have both KGO and KGODT35. In the guide it shows up as 7-1 with the ABC logo and 7-1 KGODT35.

The HD4BX is a UHF only antenna that may receive high VHF if the signal is very strong but it is very poor on channel 7. You need to add a high VHF antenna like this:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/produc...eo+retargeting

or switch to a Winegard HD7698P.

Chuck
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post #14303 of 17605 Old 11-20-2016, 07:34 AM
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.... (I'm writing my own DVR SW based on HDHomeruns ...
Already been done for windows. You do need to pay for GREAT Program Listings from Schedules Direct. ($25 / Year) With clean signals the combination in of HDHR and CW_EPG (FREE) is rock solid.

http://www.schedulesdirect.org/

Cliff Watson PVR app for HD Homerun, MyHD, and FusionHDTV

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-hom...usionhdtv.html

It is the main program I run on my HTPC. I watch little DTV live.



SHF
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post #14304 of 17605 Old 11-20-2016, 01:56 PM
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I'm not familiar with TiVo, but most tuners show the virtual channel, so it should show 7 whether you're receiving 7 from Sutro Tower or 35 from Mt. Allison.

When you turned your antenna did you lose any stations or did you just gain some?

Larry
I think I have it figured out. Thanks for all the help.

I moved the antenna to the east a bit, and seem to have lost a few. Like I lost fox, but still have the one at 48. Have ABC nice and strong now. May move the antenna back to the west a tiny bit.
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post #14305 of 17605 Old 11-27-2016, 02:46 PM
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I've lost CBS KPIX 5.1 recently. I don't know what happened. All my usual channels still work fine. NBC 11.1 or the other NBC stuff never works.

It's been a few years with this cheap RCA plastic wanna be Leaf. I think it's time to get a new indoor antenna.

I live in Hayes Valley. Can anyone in this area recommend an indoor antenna in the $10-$40 range that can get NBC?
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post #14306 of 17605 Old 11-28-2016, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Afrikan View Post
I've lost CBS KPIX 5.1 recently. I don't know what happened. All my usual channels still work fine. NBC 11.1 or the other NBC stuff never works.

It's been a few years with this cheap RCA plastic wanna be Leaf. I think it's time to get a new indoor antenna.

I live in Hayes Valley. Can anyone in this area recommend an indoor antenna in the $10-$40 range that can get NBC?
Because you're in the valley with a hill between you and Mt. San Bruno, you really need to get something for outdoors. The Leaf is one of the better indoor antennas (I have no idea what the "wanna be Leaf" is.) I don't think you'll have much luck finding a better one. An indoor antenna works for stations transmitting from Sutro Tower, but lots of areas in the northern part of the city are blocked for Mt. San Bruno and the South Bay stations. I recommend the Winegard HD7694P seen on this page from Solid Signal: http://www.solidsignal.com/search.asp?q=Winegard

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.larrykenney.com/sfonair.html
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post #14307 of 17605 Old 11-28-2016, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Afrikan View Post
I live in Hayes Valley. Can anyone in this area recommend an indoor antenna in the $10-$40 range that can get NBC?

Can you post a link to your TV Fool report? I'm not familiar with the terrain details of SF like Larry is.

Here's what happens if your direct path to Mt. San Bruno is severely blocked. It's completely possible that reflections from numerous nearby buildings are stronger than the direct path signal you are getting from KNTV. You have enough signal but from many directions. No one signal rises far enough above the others for the TV to decode. In some cases with a directional outdoor antenna you may be able to select the direct path signal and reduce the reflections enough to allow the TV to decode it. In many cases no antenna is good enough to reject all the unwanted signals and decode just one.

It could turn out that any outdoor directional high VHF antenna will allow you to receive KNTV or no antenna will be good enough. Your TV Fool report will give some hints but only trying it will say for sure. Rarely can you receive a clean enough signal off of a reflection because there are too many of them.

Chuck
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post #14308 of 17605 Old 11-28-2016, 02:33 PM
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Can you post a link to your TV Fool report? I'm not familiar with the terrain details of SF like Larry is.
...
TVFool is down!


Google produced a good result:





SHF
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post #14309 of 17605 Old 11-28-2016, 04:31 PM
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Has Dick of Dick's Antennas retired?

I am trying to get an antenna reconnected here in Santa Clara and apparently the best known local antenna guy is now unreachable as the listed phone number has been disconnected. Does anyone know if he's still working or can recommend another antenna installer?
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post #14310 of 17605 Old 11-29-2016, 01:28 AM
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I am trying to get an antenna reconnected here in Santa Clara and apparently the best known local antenna guy is now unreachable as the listed phone number has been disconnected. Does anyone know if he's still working or can recommend another antenna installer?
I use Crawford Satellite and Electronics for my antenna work. They're located in Pinole, California, but serve the entire Bay Area. Phone: (510) 758-1445.

They've done work for me twice and do a good job. Take a look at my antenna page listed below to see what they've done for me.

Larry

My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.larrykenney.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.larrykenney.com/broadcast.html
Live reception scans from my HD Home Run receivers: http://www.larrykenney.com/hdhr/
Photos and info on my antennas: http://www.larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html
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