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post #15121 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
Well fingers crossed didn't work. After being good from morning to late night, the RF35 issue is back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
Yes, at 8 AM 5/13/2017 according to Toast0's chart and at 5:45 PM my test shows sequence errors.
One of two possibilities; KGO engineering doesn't know what the problem is and how to fix, it or they don't want to incur the expense. I am leaning towards the former, but have never had a conversation with KGO engineering, and it appears there are participants in this forum more knowledgeable about the specifics of ATSC broadcast than myself anyway.

It sure would be nice if they would take this seriously, collaborate with @minakami for a second technical point of view, and resolve the problem once and for all.

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post #15122 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TPeterson View Post
A rotor doesn't serve well for tuners used in DVRs, Chuck.

Neither does switching between sets of antennas. There's no way to combine all those antennas onto one downlead. But maybe he's doing neither.

Chuck

Last edited by Calaveras; 05-16-2017 at 03:12 PM.
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post #15123 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
This is where the per-antenna Silicondust networked tuner and a PC media back end like Emby really shine. DVR and multiple antennae seamlessly integrated and streamed throughout the house to any device over the local network or internet.
Sounds good if you want to dedicate a PC to watching TV. I wonder how many people are willing to do that? Maybe Larry's friend is doing that.

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post #15124 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Sounds good if you want to dedicate a PC to watching TV. I wonder how many people are willing to do that? Maybe Larry's friend is doing that.

Chuck
My friend uses my method. He has a series of RF switches and just selects the antenna he wants to use at that point. He keeps one antenna that receives all of the networks connected to his DVR. I don't know if it's the SF or the Sac antenna that he has connected. I'll have to ask him.

I keep one of my CM4228s connected to my DVR receiver since it gets all the OTA stations that I need for recording. That way I don't have to worry that the antennas on the rotor might be pointed in the wrong direction when a recording begins.

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post #15125 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
One of two possibilities; KGO engineering doesn't know what the problem is and how to fix, it or they don't want to incur the expense. I am leaning towards the former, but have never had a conversation with KGO engineering, and it appears there are participants in this forum more knowledgeable about the specifics of ATSC broadcast than myself anyway.

It sure would be nice if they would take this seriously, collaborate with @minakami for a second technical point of view, and resolve the problem once and for all.
I'm also less knowledgeable about broadcasting. In fact this is not my field at all, but I've been having a running email correspondence with Richard Tom at KGO that started before I found this thread. In fact he was the one that suggested I AVS Forum for possible answers to what I thought was just MY problem. So far his best advise to me was try moving my antenna a few feet in any direction to resolve multipath issues and that my setup is less than ideal. The last part, I agree with and have ordered new directional UHF and VHF antennas.
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post #15126 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 05:35 PM
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#1 rule of business today, the customer stock in trade is always wrong. TV reception for sure.
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post #15127 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post
My friend uses my method. He has a series of RF switches and just selects the antenna he wants to use at that point. He keeps one antenna that receives all of the networks connected to his DVR. I don't know if it's the SF or the Sac antenna that he has connected. I'll have to ask him.

I keep one of my CM4228s connected to my DVR receiver since it gets all the OTA stations that I need for recording. That way I don't have to worry that the antennas on the rotor might be pointed in the wrong direction when a recording begins.

Larry

Same method I use except it's a rotor instead of switches. Multiple antennas isn't practical for me since they need to be 400' away and 70' in the air.

Chuck
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post #15128 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Sounds good if you want to dedicate a PC to watching TV. I wonder how many people are willing to do that? Maybe Larry's friend is doing that.

Chuck
DVRs aren't exactly cheap, the PC covers that function as well. But I do understand not everybody is willing to mess with computers and networking, even as friendly as it has become today.

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post #15129 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone hiking View Post
I'm also less knowledgeable about broadcasting. In fact this is not my field at all, but I've been having a running email correspondence with Richard Tom at KGO that started before I found this thread. In fact he was the one that suggested I AVS Forum for possible answers to what I thought was just MY problem. So far his best advise to me was try moving my antenna a few feet in any direction to resolve multipath issues and that my setup is less than ideal. The last part, I agree with and have ordered new directional UHF and VHF antennas.
It may be your antenna setup could be better. But as far as KGO RF 35, all the evidence points to it being a transmitter problem. Forum participants with widely diverse setups get perfect reception then bad reception all at the same time. Forget moving the antenna a few feet, move it ten miles and get the same results

KGO has a turkey and isn't dealing with it.

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post #15130 of 17825 Old 05-16-2017, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
...

KGO has a turkey and isn't dealing with it.
Toast0's charts tell precisely (Within 30 minutes) that the problem went away at ~ the start of a day shift and went bad ~ again at the start of a day shift.

Maybe somebody figured that a backup piece of equipment that has been shifted in was shifted out when somebody else started work and noticed that a switch was not in the normal position and shifted the bad piece of equipment back in.

Perhaps they are now waiting for a replacement piece of equipment, but we only can hope. But then why is the bad piece of equipment in service?

At least now somebody knows what piece of equipment is bad but has not told others???

SHF
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post #15131 of 17825 Old 05-17-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by minakami View Post
(BTW, my original query on whether KGOLD was going away had to do with SchedulesDirect dropping it from their lineup - not with what may happen to it in the repack. I'm still going back and forth with SchedulesDirect to get KGOLD reinstated.)
Wow. I have been reading recent threads trying to figure out what's going on with KGO on RF35 (glad I checked, as I think I've saved myself a trip to the attic for the time being). But this comment jumped out at me. Since Sage TV announced their zap2it lineup info was going away this summer, I switched over to SchedulesDirect and discovered there's no lineup for KGOLD. This all happened maybe a month ago (give or take) and I was sure I was getting guide data for KGOLD when I was using Zap2it. I finally emailed SchedulesDirect about it yesterday and just this morning (after one back-and-forth yesterday about the PSIP information on RF35), they said they've started the process of updating the lineup. This is a month after minakami wrote the above.

In the meantime, I "fixed" the lineup issue in SageTV by remapping the channel name for RF35 (35-7-1 in SageTV) to "KGODT", so that it tunes RF35 (KGOLD) but uses guide data from RF7 (KGODT). If I add KGOLD as a channel, SD doesn't offer it in the lineup so my guide says "No Data" and of course Sage won't record anything on it.

I hope RF35 gets fixed. I ran SFischer1's script a few times this morning to test and I get nonstop sequence errors. The channel is semi-watchable, but there are definitely problems and it seems quite a few here are seeing the same thing.
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post #15132 of 17825 Old 05-17-2017, 01:22 PM
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.... I finally emailed SchedulesDirect about it yesterday and just this morning (after one back-and-forth yesterday about the PSIP information on RF35), they said they've started the process of updating the lineup.


That's awesome! My ticket with SchedulesDirect is still open. They originally asked that I provide PSIP, which I did, and said they would start updating the lineup. Then a day later they came back and said that there was a problem with their upstream provider (Tribune/Gracenote). I ping SD weekly to get updates, but SD has only been saying that Tribune/Gracenote is contacting station engineering to clarify the status of KGOLD.


(Meanwhile, just like you I've been massaging the data by cloning the KGODT listings. In case you need it, the KGOLD station ID was 74318.)
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post #15133 of 17825 Old 05-17-2017, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by minakami View Post
That's awesome! My ticket with SchedulesDirect is still open. They originally asked that I provide PSIP, which I did, and said they would start updating the lineup. Then a day later they came back and said that there was a problem with their upstream provider (Tribune/Gracenote). I ping SD weekly to get updates, but SD has only been saying that Tribune/Gracenote is contacting station engineering to clarify the status of KGOLD.

(Meanwhile, just like you I've been massaging the data by cloning the KGODT listings. In case you need it, the KGOLD station ID was 74318.)
That's interesting. I did get the KGOLD Station ID from SageTV and sent that to them as well hoping it might help. I see that they have guide data for KTVUDT and KTVULD (44 and 48) so I'm not sure why there would be an issue with KGO, but if KGO isn't providing it maybe that's the answer. At least there is a workaround.
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post #15134 of 17825 Old 05-17-2017, 07:07 PM
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Duplicate Channels

I bought this converter:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A2WSTUX2A6RQ1A

Pretty happy for the price (1080P, DD HDMI). What is strange is that when it scans it duplicates some channels (2-3, 7-1) The duplicate has a green icon that says (SKIP) I think, hard to read.

In the case of 7.1 which is my weakest channel ( 47%), The only one that plays is the one with the icon but both are called 7-1 in the channel list. When I tried to remove the one that doesn't work, it removed the good one too!

Any thoughts?


thx

bob
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post #15135 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:21 AM
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In case anyone is interested, KCSO-LD (VC33/RF3) has moved from Angels Camp to Walnut Grove. I doubt there will be any interference to RF3 in the Bay Area since the power off the back of the KCSO antenna is very low.

Chuck

Edit: I attached a spectrum analyzer image mostly for Keith. Even though KTVJ is nearly 10 dB weaker than KCSO, the KTVJ SNR was 24 dB and the KCSO SNR was 22 dB when I captured this. KCSO must have a lot of multipath.
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post #15136 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
Pretty happy for the price (1080P, DD HDMI). What is strange is that when it scans it duplicates some channels (2-3, 7-1) The duplicate has a green icon that says (SKIP) I think, hard to read.

You're scanning in the KGO and KTVU translators in Fremont along with the main Sutro transmitters.

Chuck
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post #15137 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Edit: I attached a spectrum analyzer image mostly for Keith. Even though KTVJ is nearly 10 dB weaker than KCSO, the KTVJ SNR was 24 dB and the KCSO SNR was 22 dB when I captured this. KCSO must have a lot of multipath.
Is the amplitude spike shown on the low end of the DTV bands an artifact of your spectrum analyzer? I would not think the transmitter really does that. Maybe an issue with impulse response of the IF filter as it sweeps.

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post #15138 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Is the amplitude spike shown on the low end of the DTV bands an artifact of your spectrum analyzer? I would not think the transmitter really does that. Maybe an issue with impulse response of the IF filter as it sweeps.
If you're referring to the "spike" at the left edge of each of the "boxcar" waveforms, that's the transmitted pilot signal that is a requirement for the ATSC signalling and is completely normal.

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post #15139 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 12:16 PM
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Is the amplitude spike shown on the low end of the DTV bands an artifact of your spectrum analyzer? I would not think the transmitter really does that. Maybe an issue with impulse response of the IF filter as it sweeps.
If you're referring to the small spike just below KFTY peaking about -98dBm then that's noise. Low VHF has lots of intermittent noise.

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post #15140 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 12:22 PM
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If you're referring to the "spike" at the left edge of each of the "boxcar" waveforms, that's the transmitted pilot signal that is a requirement for the ATSC signalling and is completely normal.
Got it. I'm not familiar with ATSC, most modulation formats don't have that feature.

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post #15141 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Got it. I'm not familiar with ATSC, most modulation formats don't have that feature.

The pilot is not visible if you were to view the signal in a 6MHz bandwidth. This is because the pilot appears as a CW signal but the modulation appears as noise so it goes up or down due to bandwidth. The pilot remains constant. You most often see spectrum analyzer traces of ATSC signals using a 100 KHz IF bandwidth. This lowers the noise enough to see the pilot above the data in the rest of the signal. Attached is a spectrum analyzer trace using a 1MHz bandwidth on KVIE and KXTV. The pilot signal disappears below the signal.

Chuck
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post #15142 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
You're scanning in the KGO and KTVU translators in Fremont along with the main Sutro transmitters.

Chuck
Thanks, Chuck

How do I tell which is which? I'm assuming the stronger (or the working) one is Fremont for me in San Jose?

bob
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post #15143 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 06:41 PM
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Thanks, Chuck

How do I tell which is which? I'm assuming the stronger (or the working) one is Fremont for me in San Jose?

bob

You need some way to look at the RF channel, 35 for the KGO translator and 48 for the KTVU translator. Does your TV display that somewhere?

Chuck
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post #15144 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 06:46 PM
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+1. Most tv's should have a signal strength indicator somewhere in the menu. They are usually not very accurate but you can at least get an idea of which one is the stronger of the two. For us, 7.1 and 2.1 are the stronger of the two where we live in San Jose.
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post #15145 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 06:56 PM
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For us, 7.1 and 2.1 are the stronger of the two where we live in San Jose.
But can you tell which 7.1 and 2.1 you're watching? Are you watching 7 or 35, 44 or 48?

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post #15146 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:05 PM
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But can you tell which 7.1 and 2.1 you're watching? Are you watching 7 or 35, 44 or 48?

Larry
As far as I can tell, I'm scanned and locked onto 7 and 2, with all three of my tv's. I have a direct LOS to Sutro and San Bruno with nothing in the way. I get virtually everything with very little problems from both sites. I could dig into the tuner and get more precise info if need be.

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post #15147 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:14 PM
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But can you tell which 7.1 and 2.1 you're watching? Are you watching 7 or 35, 44 or 48?

Larry
No, that's it.. They both show the same info and freq. But it my case, only one of the 7-1's even displays and it's around 47%.

thx

bob
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post #15148 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post
No, that's it.. They both show the same info and freq. But it my case, only one of the 7-1's even displays and it's around 47%.

thx

bob
Do you have a VHF antenna?

Bobby 

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post #15149 of 17825 Old 05-18-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post
Do you have a VHF antenna?

It's the old Square "fence gate" antenna I got in the early days of HD! Like this one:

https://tinkerandhack.com/products/channel-master-cm-4228hd-hi-definition-tv-antenna-75-mi-120-km-uhf-high-vhf or

https://forum.videohelp.com/images/g.../4228_zoom.gif


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post #15150 of 17825 Old 05-19-2017, 12:59 AM
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As far as I can tell, I'm scanned and locked onto 7 and 2...
Yes, but do you know which 7 or which 2 you're receiving? Is it 7 from Sutro or 7 from Mt. Allison? Is it 2 from Sutro or 2 from Monument Peak?

Larry

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