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post #17131 of 17660 Old 12-15-2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
STOP AND DISCONNECT THIS!

YOU WILL LIKELY DAMAGE YOUR ROUTER with a HIGH VSWR!

TV ANTENNAS are NOT tuned for the 2.4GHZ and/or 5.8GHz of the router.. plus the loss in the cable.

STOP AND DISCONNECT THIS!

You can get PROPER 2.4GHz and dual band 2.4/5.8GHz antennas for your router

Yes there are proper connectors for this... I am not giving the name for the routers most common one.. so you don't get one on Ebay or something and connect this again.

You will LIKELY DAMAGE YOUR ROUTER!

Additionally there are rules about 802.11[x] and the power limits for same...
Wow THANKS! Not to worry, this was at my cabin a couple days ago. I did run it that way for one day and night. It's back home with me now, no antenna, working fine.

I'll look into the proper antenna.
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post #17132 of 17660 Old 12-16-2018, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
STOP AND DISCONNECT THIS!

YOU WILL LIKELY DAMAGE YOUR ROUTER with a HIGH VSWR!

TV ANTENNAS are NOT tuned for the 2.4GHZ and/or 5.8GHz of the router.. plus the loss in the cable.

STOP AND DISCONNECT THIS!

Although I agree that using a TV antenna on a router makes no sense at all, damaging the router from high VSWR is highly unlikely. Let's look at this.

RG-6 cable is very lossy at 2.4 and 5.8 GHz. My Belden sheet shows RG-6 to have 10.1 dB loss per 100' at 2.25 GHz. Just as an example, let's take 100' of RG-6 at 2.4 GHz with a loss of 10 dB. Further let's say the end of the cable is open, i.e no antenna connected at all, 100% of the power is reflected. If the router had 1 watt output, the reflected power seen by the router would be 0.01 watts, or a Return Loss of 20 dB. If you plug those numbers into a VSWR calculator you'll get a VSWR of 1.22:1. That's actually a pretty decent dummy load. It's even better at 5.8 GHz where the loss is higher. With 50' of RG-6 the VSWR on the open cable would be 1.9:1. Still not high enough to cause any damage.

There's another thing to consider. RF output devices have a VSWR tolerance spec. I have no idea what that might be for the output device in any router but I have seen this spec on higher power devices and something on the order of "30:1 at all phase angles" is common. It's pretty hard to get a VSWR that high.

IMO it's unlikely that a router can be damaged by a high VSWR and also unlikely any FCC ERP limits on the unlicensed bands will be broken.

Chuck
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post #17133 of 17660 Old 12-17-2018, 05:40 AM
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Exclamation Dangerours

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post
Although I agree that using a TV antenna on a router makes no sense at all, damaging the router from high VSWR is highly unlikely. Let's look at this.


Chuck

My 30+ years of building LMR stuff says otherwise. I've had Syntor, Quantar and Master IIe/III's damaged with less ..

Consumer equipment is unlikely to tolerate and misaligned and mistuned antennas. Plus some jerry rigged up connection to mate to the F connector from a non F connector... all lead to possible damage from this setup, even for short period.


Connecting when the router is on, so removing the antenna , no antennae, and then a TV antenna...

Likely the ONLY thing that prevent the damage is the CABLE. with the high loss..


Bad idea. Don't do it! Likely to damage equipment, and cause all kinds of problems... 2.4Ghz has enough garbage from routers with out causing more problems.

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post #17134 of 17660 Old 12-17-2018, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by TampBayOTA View Post
My 30+ years of building LMR stuff says otherwise. I've had Syntor, Quantar and Master IIe/III's damaged with less ..

Dangerous?? Wow, that's a bit over the top for a device whose maximum output power is 100mW. Pretty hard for that to be dangerous no matter how you look at it. I read your recent posts on OTA. Seemed pretty extreme to me as does this.

I've worked with all sorts of RF devices since 1970 and have not seen anything like you're claiming. Without some hard failure analysis I remain skeptical. I prefer not to jump to conclusions.

I've seen lots of consumer equipment with protections built in. Sometimes it's the components themselves. Sometimes it's extra components. There's no way to really know without a detailed analysis of the circuit and components what protections a device may have but I wouldn't assume there are none just because it's a consumer device.

Chuck
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post #17135 of 17660 Old 12-18-2018, 05:39 PM
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That sucks! Sonoma mountain is all I get at my cabin. Grrr.

I read KRCB's filing. It is so interesting that they listed KFTY-LD as the station to cover Cloverdale to prevent there from being white space (non-covered area). However, KFTY-LD has a construction permit to move east. I wonder why they didn't list KQSL as the potential station to keep there from being white space over Cloverdale.


Blessings,
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post #17136 of 17660 Old 12-18-2018, 06:39 PM
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I'm not sure they can use KFTY-LD to justify it anyway; I think only full-power stations count. I could be wrong on that.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #17137 of 17660 Old 12-20-2018, 01:56 PM
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The FCC granted the request of KRCB to move to Sutro Tower.

Chuck
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post #17138 of 17660 Old 12-20-2018, 02:12 PM
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The FCC granted the request of KRCB to move to Sutro Tower.

Chuck

Hi Chuck,


This is good news! This creates white space that KQSL has applied to fill over Cloverdale. Hopefully this will help with KQSL's minor mod being granted. I also saw that KMMW-LD applied today to amend their displacement app on 14. This is so awesome. They have literally prevented KQSL from covering the south half of Sacramento. The engineer for KMMW-LD in Stockton said that they plan to cease operation on 28 by the end of the year!



I also got the upgraded encoder back for the One Ministries, Inc. stations. It is a $50k encoder. I'm working on putting it into service. We've been operating for a little while on our back up encoders.



Blessings,
Keith
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post #17139 of 17660 Old 12-20-2018, 03:00 PM
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The engineer for KMMW-LD in Stockton said that they plan to cease operation on 28 by the end of the year!
Is that the end of 2018 or 2019? KMMW has been off the air for months but recently they came back on.

Chuck
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post #17140 of 17660 Old 12-20-2018, 03:05 PM
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Hi Chuck,


The engineer said they plan to turn off on 28 at the end of this year. They have a new Rohde and Schwarz transmitter for channel 14. So, they plan to turn on 14 as soon as they get the permit.


Blessings,
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post #17141 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kkpm View Post
Hi Chuck,


The engineer said they plan to turn off on 28 at the end of this year. They have a new Rohde and Schwarz transmitter for channel 14. So, they plan to turn on 14 as soon as they get the permit.


Blessings,
Keith

I was wondering if they were off the air because they were working to put up a channel 14 antenna. Seems now that that was the case. The signal on 28 is about 6 dB weaker than before. Maybe they moved the antenna down the tower or reduced the power.

I don't understand why they have both KMMW and KCSO showing the same programming. If low VHF is so bad then shut it off. From where I am KCSO is the most stable signal from Walnut Grove. I don't think I've ever seen it vary more than +/- 2 dB from its nominal level.

Chuck
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post #17142 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 10:13 AM
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From where I am KCSO is the most stable signal from Walnut Grove. I don't think I've ever seen it vary more than +/- 2 dB from its nominal level.

Chuck
Some friends recently bought a new home up in the Sierra foothills in the town of West Point. There was an antenna already on the roof, so they tried it to see what they could get. KCSO is the only station that comes in solid for them. They get some of the other Walnut Grove stations off and on, but none are as solid as KCSO.

Here I get a solid signal from low power KQRO that transmits on channel 2 (virtual 45) from Loma Prieta Mt. 55 miles away while KAAP on channel 11, virtual 24, transmitting from the same location, is below the cliff edge most of the time.

You've mentioned, Chuck, that you get a good signal from low power KQSL transmitting on channel 4 from Mt. Tamalpais. Here it's the only station where I get 100% signal quality. Multipath doesn't seem to be a problem with that signal while everything from Sutro Tower and Mt. San Bruno is affected by it.

Low power on low VHF seems to be quite reliable around here.

Larry

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post #17143 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 10:47 AM
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Some friends recently bought a new home up in the Sierra foothills in the town of West Point. There was an antenna already on the roof, so they tried it to see what they could get. KCSO is the only station that comes in solid for them. They get some of the other Walnut Grove stations off and on, but none are as solid as KCSO.

I'll bet their house is surrounded by giant pine trees. West Point has a lot more trees than I have here. Without running a TV Fool report it's hard to say what their path to Walnut Grove is like.

Chuck
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post #17144 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 04:22 PM
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For those following the saga of channel 44, as of this afternoon, 44.3 is showing a banner that says "MeTV is Coming", while 44.4 is now showing content (and associated PSIP info).

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #17145 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 04:48 PM
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For those following the saga of channel 44, as of this afternoon, 44.3 is showing a banner that says "MeTV is Coming", while 44.4 is now showing content (and associated PSIP info).
A baby in a toilet, a dog swimming in a bathtub?

No Thanks.

SHF
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post #17146 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by RayGuy View Post
For those following the saga of channel 44, as of this afternoon, 44.3 is showing a banner that says "MeTV is Coming", while 44.4 is now showing content (and associated PSIP info).
As of 5:15 p.m. the 44.4 content is coming from something called TBDtv, whose website says:

You love TV. And you love the internet. So you’re definitely gonna love TBD: a new free broadcast network that combines the best of both worlds. We handpick the most entertaining stuff from the most creative creators and put it on your TV for a new adventure every day. Everything from culinary capers, jaw-dropping action, hilarious pranks and comedy, music, fitness, gaming, or just random awesomeness that you never knew you needed in your life. If it’s what’s new or what’s next, it’s on TBD.

IOW, really lame stuff...They're currently showing couples watching YouTube videos and reacting to them. Must-see TV (not).
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post #17147 of 17660 Old 12-21-2018, 08:18 PM
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I'll bet their house is surrounded by giant pine trees. West Point has a lot more trees than I have here. Without running a TV Fool report it's hard to say what their path to Walnut Grove is like.

Chuck
You're right... my friend's home is surrounded by 50 to 60 foot high trees, and many of them are pines.

TVFool lists all stations in the gray area, all 2 edge with a NM of -11.9 down to -39.2. All are shown as 259 to 262 degrees, except KFTY at 288 degrees. It doesn't give much promise for decent reception.

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post #17148 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 09:25 AM
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For those following the saga of channel 44, as of this afternoon, 44.3 is showing a banner that says "MeTV is Coming", while 44.4 is now showing content (and associated PSIP info).
Well, it has to be better than 28.4 (I think), which has been showing a Roku home screen from the Eastern Time Zone 24/7 for several days.

I really felt in the Christmas spirit when they added a snow scene background to the home screen. Though I will say I liked some of the other Christmas background artwork in years past, some very creative and fun images, this is more like a bad '50s Christmas card from somebody not Hallmark(TM) who couldn't afford a decent graphic illustrator...

OTA TV in late 2018. A static media streamer home screen, NOW THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!!

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post #17149 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 10:00 AM
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..
I really felt in the Christmas spirit when they added a snow scene background to the home screen.

...max
VC 44.3 is now showing GREEN SNOW! Yea!

SHF

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post #17150 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 10:37 AM
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vc 44.3 is now showing green snow! yea!

Shf

Beautiful! Beautiful! Beautiful!

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 12-22-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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post #17151 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 10:46 AM
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Hey, we finally got our grass growing channel!

Bobby 

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post #17152 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 01:26 PM
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As cute as that new green screen is, it seems to me that the quality of the presentation of Comet (44.2) has degraded quite a bit. I watch the B5 reruns religiously, and it is seriously missing those extra bits! Lots of issues, where the picture appears to jump a few frames for any strong horizontal motion. Very disconcerting. I assume it'll only get worse once MeTV goes live!

Any of you folks who can measure the stream, if you have some historical data saved, can you compare what is happening on 44.2 before 44.3-4 were introduced, vs now? Thanks! Just want my ducks in a row before I abuse someone about it!

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 12-22-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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post #17153 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 01:55 PM
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As cute as that new green screen is, it seems to me that the quality of the presentation of Comet (44.2) has degraded quite a bit. I watch the B5 reruns religiously, and it is seriously missing those extra bits! Lots of issues, where the picture appears to jump a few frames for any strong horizontal motion. Very disconcerting. I assume it'll only get worse once MeTV goes live!

Any of you folks who can measure what's happening, can you compare what is happening on 44.2 before 44.3-4 were introduced, vs now? Thanks! Just want my ducks in a row before I abuse someone about it!
I have not yet run TSReader on VC 44 but the HDHomeRun Config shows about:

Code:
VC 44.1 KBCW 	10-11	Mbps
VC 44.2 Comet  	1-2 	Mbps
VC 44.3 ME.tv 	3 	Mbps
VC 44.4 TBD	2 	Mbps
So Me.tv is getting more of the bits, to be expected as Green Snow is the most difficult video to encode, MPG2 is not too good at that. It must be about using the max allowed.

----------------------------------

Remember, ME.tv is money in the bank for CBS as Weigel Broadcasting pays them to carry the channel.

Now for VC 44.1 KBCW, VC 44.2 Comet and VC 44.4 TBD CBS must sell local ads to get any money.

So, when ME.tv goes live it will not be allowed any more bits that it is getting now.

So the Green Snow has a real purpose, that of showing the engineers how well the variable rate encoder is doing when ME.tv will go live.

So, no complaints will change anything.

SHF
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post #17154 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post
I have not yet run TSReader on VC 44 but the HDHomeRun Config shows about:

Code:
VC 44.1 KBCW 	10-11	Mbps
VC 44.2 Comet  	1-2 	Mbps
VC 44.3 ME.tv 	3 	Mbps
VC 44.4 TBD	2 	Mbps
So Me.tv is getting more of the bits, to be expected as Green Snow is the most difficult video to encode, MPG2 is not too good at that. It must be about using the max allowed.

----------------------------------

Remember, ME.tv is money in the bank for CBS as Weigel Broadcasting pays them to carry the channel.

Now for VC 44.1 KBCW, VC 44.2 Comet and VC 44.4 TBD CBS must sell local ads to get any money.

So, when ME.tv goes live it will not be allowed any more bits that it is getting now.

So the Green Snow has a real purpose, that of showing the engineers how well the variable rate encoder is doing when ME.tv will go live.

So, no complaints will change anything.

SHF
So, the only real question is will the techs ignore the obvious.

As to complaints not changing anything, well, gonna do it anyway.

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #17155 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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As cute as that new green screen is, it seems to me that the quality of the presentation of Comet (44.2) has degraded quite a bit. I watch the B5 reruns religiously, and it is seriously missing those extra bits! Lots of issues, where the picture appears to jump a few frames for any strong horizontal motion. Very disconcerting. I assume it'll only get worse once MeTV goes live!

Any of you folks who can measure the stream, if you have some historical data saved, can you compare what is happening on 44.2 before 44.3-4 were introduced, vs now? Thanks! Just want my ducks in a row before I abuse someone about it!
Sorry to hear that, for the brief time when they had their stuff together Comet looked pretty darn good. I mean, "Gene Rodenberry's Andromeda" looked quite good, and I watched it occasionally partly just for that reason.

4.4 "Grit" appears to run at about seven frames a second, I hope it's not that bad...

--
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post #17156 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 07:08 PM
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KPIX is marking its 70th anniversary today. It was the first television station in San Francisco. They just had a feature on the news that listed their premiere schedule:

6:45 p.m. Test pattern
7:00 Howdy Doody
7:30 Valley of the Heart's Delight (about agriculture in the Santa Clara Valley)
7:45 News
7:50 Cartoon
8:00 Touchdown (a short film about football)
8:30 Ice hockey from Winterland (yes, Grasshopper, Winterland existed before Bill Graham)

There's more information about the station's history and a bunch of old news clips at:


https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/category/kpix70/
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post #17157 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 07:37 PM
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Any of you folks who can measure the stream, if you have some historical data saved, can you compare what is happening on 44.2 before 44.3-4 were introduced, vs now? Thanks! Just want my ducks in a row before I abuse someone about it!
You can take a look at the Program & Bitrates charts on https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com. It does realtime monitoring and analysis of many broadcasts in the SF Bay Area (at least those receivable in the South Peninsula). The graphs show per-program average bitrates in ten minute windows. Hovering over a data point will show the per-PID average bitrate as well as the (then-current) PSIP. I've attached today's chart for RF 45. You can see where 44-3 went snowy, at which point pressure from the stat mux started cranking down 44-1 and 44-2. When a real broadcast happens I wouldn't expect 44-2 to be quite as bad as it was today - statistical multiplexing pretty much rests on the assumption that all the subchannels will simultaneously hit worst-case scenes rarely. But it'll probably be worse than it was the past couple weeks when 44-3 had a solid color screen. And sadly it's unlikely to get back to what is was before Dec 3 when 44-3 and 44-4 arrived. Personally I'd rather see 44-1 cranked down a bit more so 44-2, 44-3, and 44-4 would be a bit better.

(I'm another B5 fan so also mourn the loss of quality! Fortunately if you have Amazon Prime it's also in their "free" catalog.)

The chart for December 3 is also interesting as it shows 4-3 and 4-4 going live at midnight, as well as the encoder transitioning from CBR to VBR.
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post #17158 of 17660 Old 12-22-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by minakami View Post
You can take a look at the Program & Bitrates charts on https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com. It does realtime monitoring and analysis of many broadcasts in the SF Bay Area (at least those receivable in the South Peninsula). The graphs show per-program average bitrates in ten minute windows. Hovering over a data point will show the per-PID average bitrate as well as the (then-current) PSIP. I've attached today's chart for RF 45. You can see where 44-3 went snowy, at which point pressure from the stat mux started cranking down 44-1 and 44-2. When a real broadcast happens I wouldn't expect 44-2 to be quite as bad as it was today - statistical multiplexing pretty much rests on the assumption that all the subchannels will simultaneously hit worst-case scenes rarely. But it'll probably be worse than it was the past couple weeks when 44-3 had a solid color screen. And sadly it's unlikely to get back to what is was before Dec 3 when 44-3 and 44-4 arrived. Personally I'd rather see 44-1 cranked down a bit more so 44-2, 44-3, and 44-4 would be a bit better.

(I'm another B5 fan so also mourn the loss of quality! Fortunately if you have Amazon Prime it's also in their "free" catalog.)

The chart for December 3 is also interesting as it shows 4-3 and 4-4 going live at midnight, as well as the encoder transitioning from CBR to VBR.
Silly me, I missed that data is online.

Thanks' a lot.

SHF
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post #17159 of 17660 Old 12-23-2018, 01:23 AM
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You can take a look at the Program & Bitrates charts on https://sfbayatsc.koherence.com.
I just spent quite a bit of time reading through the information on this site and checking out the graphs. It's a very interesting site with lots of great information. Thanks for providing it for all of us.

Larry

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post #17160 of 17660 Old 12-23-2018, 09:20 AM
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44.3 has been alternating between green snow and the "coming soon" card.


44.4 has been stuck on the same image since at least sometime last evening.
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