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post #8911 of 8929 Old 01-19-2019, 05:10 PM
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I have another post awaiting moderation on the TVFool plots and for the record, I am in Ruther Glen VA, between Richmond VA and Washington D.C.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Combining two antennas aimed in different directions is convenient, but it doesn't always work. When the same signals arrive at the combining point, they will interfere with each other if they are not in phase (arrive at the same instant).

If you don't have all the signals after combining that you had when the antennas were separate, that method of combining doesn't work for you.
If those problems exist even before combining, you are not yet ready to combine.
I have seen mention of a "commercial quality" balun, but I have yet to see a source. CM makes the 3203 which they claim is superior to the 94444.

Most of us here that give advice feel that the current CM JOINtenna is just an ordinary splitter in reverse plus an LTE filter. I have yet to see any measurements that prove otherwise. The proof for your location would be a test with each as a comparison.


I doubt that switching to a balun with slightly less loss will make a dramatic difference in the reception of your marginal signals. OTA signals constantly vary in strength, sometimes as much as 10 dB in 30 minutes. In the absence of your signal report and the details of your antenna system, my advice would be to keep it simple and be happy with the strong signals that you have.

Judging by the spectrum analyzer and the signal level meter I'm not seeing any discernible out of phase impact on my received signal levels. I have no handle on how a slight out phase condition will impact the quality of the signal as opposed to the amplitude. I see no discernible improvement by separating the antennas. This leads me to believe the FM signal overload is playing a greater factor in my reception limitations.


I had not seen the 3203 previously however it's the closest I have seen to a "commercial balun".


Your comments on the JOINtenna make sense. One pays for the convenience of having a combiner & LTE filter in a single package.


The baluns are being replaced because I allowed my local antenna supply wholesaler talk me into swapping the original AntennaCraft baluns for the supplier's house brand devices. The performance doesn't seem to be as good as the Antennacraft baluns (tested with the antennas on a shorter amateur radio temporary mast) and I believe there is some water infiltration that is reducing signal levels after significant precipitation events.


- George
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post #8912 of 8929 Old 01-19-2019, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenolaCross View Post
I am located between two TV media markets and have OTA antennas pointed at the transmitter locations for those two markets.
What city is your location?
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08:10 PM - PenolaCross quoted rabbit73 in post Deleted Posts
07:11 PM - PenolaCross quoted rabbit73 in post Deleted Posts
I'm wondering why your two posts were deleted. Did you do that, or were they auto-deleted by forum rules? When you have less than 5 posts, and your post contains an active link, it might be auto-deleted.

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post #8913 of 8929 Old 01-19-2019, 08:01 PM
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OK, I get it now. You are reluctant to give your report or location because it would compromise your identity. That is your right. My advice above still stands after studying your information on two forums.

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post #8914 of 8929 Old 01-19-2019, 11:46 PM
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If you don't want to give your location (TVFool rounds to nearest 0.1-mi), you can provide LAT/LONG [or just Names] of nearby cross-streets....or ZipCode....anything is better than nothing....
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post #8915 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
OK, I get it now. You are reluctant to give your report or location because it would compromise your identity. That is your right. My advice above still stands after studying your information on two forums.
My TVFool reports are provided in the posts above...
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post #8916 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 05:20 AM
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Dual OTA antenna mixing - more or less confusion

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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
What city is your location?

I'm wondering why your two posts were deleted. Did you do that, or were they auto-deleted by forum rules? When you have less than 5 posts, and your post contains an active link, it might be auto-deleted. .

As I previously stated, I am in Ruther Glen Virginia.


All of my posts are included in this thread and didn't include links, just the TV Fool FM image you requested and the TV one as well.


-George
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post #8917 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 06:12 AM
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Moved to Richmond thread.

@PenolaCross see your PMs.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

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post #8918 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenolaCross View Post
I am located between two TV media markets and have OTA antennas pointed at the transmitter locations for those two markets. I currently have the antennas mixed with a standard two port splitter then fed into a preamplifier and multiport distribution amplifier. The two local PBS affiliate stations with the lowest power transmitters are problematic with dropouts and sometimes total absence. The more distant market VHF stations are hit or miss during the day and only one of the UHF stations appears sporadically. Complicating matters is a 47KW FM station and Sprint cell site 2.5 miles away. I have two 80 dB FM filters and Channel Master CM-3201 LTE filters enroute to deal with them.
After looking your TV Fool report I see you're in one market and beyond the service area of a second. At 71 miles and a 2 edge path, it won't be possible to reliably receive those stations in most cases. What you're describing with the daytime loss of signals is very typical for this sort of path. You are relying on nighttime temperature inversions to extend the range of the station with some ducting. This almost always disappears in the daytime hours with solar heating resulting in no reception. Another common problem is antennas that are looking through trees. Trees are huge attenuators and also introduce multipath. In order to receive signals TV Fool shows with single digit Noise Margins or weaker, you need to have true LOS to the 2nd edge. If there are any trees or buildings blocking the view then you can pretty much forget it.


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The second upgrade is to replace the two way splitter with a 3.5 dB loss on each leg with a Channel Master CM-0500 "JOINtenna" that is built specifically for mixing two antenna signals. The JOINtenna has nearly half the insertion loss and includes a 700 MHz LTE filter. The price is nearly five times that of a two port splitter so before I let my fingers do the buying I'd like to see if anyone has experience with the JOINtenna.
I have not measured this device, but if their spec is correct then 1.75 dB less loss is barely noticeable by the most observant. It's not going to make stations that you can't receive now be receivable. A 2 dB signal increase may take a 50% station and turn it into a 70% station. A 50% station will need 10 db or more to get it near 100%. It's typically recommended here that you need 10-20 dB Fade Margin especially on distant stations because signals change by a lot.
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post #8919 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenolaCross View Post
Judging by the spectrum analyzer and the signal level meter I'm not seeing any discernible out of phase impact on my received signal levels. I have no handle on how a slight out phase condition will impact the quality of the signal as opposed to the amplitude. I see no discernible improvement by separating the antennas. This leads me to believe the FM signal overload is playing a greater factor in my reception limitations.
I have a spectrum analyzer too. In most cases it tells you nothing about multipath issues. A change in amplitude across the ATSC signal doesn't mean there is mulitpath. If you're very familiar with a wide range of ATSC signals on the analyzer and are aware of other factors, sometimes you can pick out multipath on the display. You really need an ATSC analyzer that displays multipath signals. Last time I checked these were around $20K so no average person has one.

I looked at your FM Fool report. The top 2 stations could be a problem but their 2nd harmonics fall in channel 8 and channel 10. I don't see either of those channels anywhere in your TV Fool report. It wouldn't surprise me if the filter does nothing but you can try it.

This is a case where more information would be helpful. What are your antennas? Unless your antenna has elements for low VHF, it's going to perform poorly in the FM band. As a ham, you know a 2M yagi is going to be pretty bad on 6M. Same thing goes here for a high VHF TV antenna on the FM band. Your FM signals will actually be much weaker than FM Fool shows because it assumes a resonant dipole to generate those numbers.

I assume you've used your analyzer to look between 700 and 800 MHz to verify that the close by cell tower has LTE transmitters. Unless your antenna is pointed at the tower it's probably not a problem. I have a seen a few reports here where adding an LTE filter improved reception, but it's the exception, not the rule.

You have a couple of stations that are pretty strong on your TV Fool report. Those could be overloading your preamp (make/model?) and causing weaker stations not to be received.

Your TV Fool report shows other issues too. Most of your weaker stations have Co-channel (C) interference and/or Adjacent channel (a) issues. The ATSC system is designed to accept 33 dB difference in signal strength between adjacent channels. In your report for example, WNVC on RF 24 show a NM of 2.5 dB and WTVR on RF 25 or 46.2 dB. That's a difference of 41.7 dB. Under those conditions WNVC will not be possible to receive. Co-channel interference can be hard to evaluate. A very weak station that can never be received can reduce the SNR of another less weak station to where it can't be received. Receiving out of market stations can get complicated because there are so many factors working against you.

Last edited by Calaveras; 01-20-2019 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Typos
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post #8920 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PenolaCross View Post
Rabbit73, thank you for the multitude of info you have already provided. Before you get too invested in my problem, please be aware that I have an electronics degree, two FCC licenses and spent more than ten years designing and installing MATV and broadband systems. Unfortunately, most of my TV experience considerably predates HDTV so today I come up short in the areas of ATSC signal behavior and currently available antenna hardware.
I could tell that you have a lot of antenna knowledge, so I tried not to "talk down" to you. I have been a ham since the early '50s and started experimenting with antennas when I was 8. I'm now 85 and still learning.
Quote:
I have JPEG copies of my TVFool FM analyisis based upon the 2018 database and my TVFool TV analysis based upon the 2017 database. I do not use the 2018 TV database because within the twenty or so stations of interest, a quarter of them are missing, have not been deleted or are otherwise in error. For the information that correctly appears in both databases, the values correlate. I will ask the moderator to post them to the discussion.
Thank you for the report images.




This is a link to a current report. You can click on a callsign to see the terrain profile.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038ca50cc286e



A report from rabbitears.info has a more accurate list of channels:



I agree with the analysis by Calaveras.

You can see the Richmond channel changes here:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WTVR

This is the Richmond repack plan:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...h=&lss=&status=

Channel changes for Washington DC:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...h&callsign=WRC

Repack plan for DC:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...h=&lss=&status=

Repack schedule:
https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-initiatives/incentive-auctions/transition-schedule

https://www.commlawcenter.com/2017/04/fcc-announces-auction-results-and-sets-tv-repack-deadlines.html

I see your antennas in a satellite view. Are they high enough for the signals to clear the trees?

What FM filter did you order? The high pass section of a HLSJ makes a good low insertion loss FM filter. Filters are more effective when the coax shield is grounded with a grounding block connected to the house electrical system ground.
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post #8921 of 8929 Old 01-20-2019, 04:34 PM
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PenolaCross

This is the WRC terrain profile showing interference to the signal by terrain and curvature of the earth:



This is the WRC coverage:



Closeup of WRC coverage in your area:

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post #8922 of 8929 Old 01-21-2019, 03:22 AM
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I'm inclined to agree with Calaveras here, who says you're not really half-way between two markets. More to the point, I think that if you try to combine antennas in that way, assuming it works right now, it will stop working when the repack takes place. I'm not sure which DC signals you're looking for, but after the repack, there's supposed to be a fair amount of co-channeling. For example:

WFDC/WDCW is on 15, and WUDW-LD will also be on 15.
WRC/WZDC will be on 34, and WZTD-LD will also be on 34.
WTTG/WDCA is on 36, and WRID-LD will also be on 36.

WJLA, WUSA/WJAL, WPXW, WHUT, and WETA will remain clear of co-channeling from Richmond, but WETA and WPXW will have co-channel issues with Charlottesville which could be in issue (and I wouldn't be shocked if WHUT ultimately joins the list). Meanwhile, you'll have very strong signals from WWBT on 10 and especially WUPV on 8 compared with far weaker WJLA on 7 and WUSA/WJAL on 9 and that may make the DC signals hard or impossible to receive.

If you really want to receive DC signals, I would imagine that long-term you will actually want two separate antenna setups, one for Richmond and one for DC. Even then, I suspect it will be pretty tricky.

- Trip
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post #8923 of 8929 Old 01-23-2019, 06:20 PM
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WUPV is apparently operating at severely reduced power. Their transmitter has failed and they're on a backup now. Their typical 1000 kW ERP has been reduced to about 41 kW. They've requested to move to repack channel 8 early (April 25) rather than repair their old transmitter.

- Trip

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post #8924 of 8929 Old 01-24-2019, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WUPV is apparently operating at severely reduced power. Their transmitter has failed and they're on a backup now. Their typical 1000 kW ERP has been reduced to about 41 kW. They've requested to move to repack channel 8 early (April 25) rather than repair their old transmitter.

- Trip
Well, there goes my chance of ever picking them up here again in Virginia Beach...

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post #8925 of 8929 Old 06-19-2019, 09:59 AM
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WUPV on RF 8

Long time lurker, first time poster here. Has anyone been able to receive WUPV reliably since the repack to RF channel 8? I had no problems receiving them on channel 47, and the signal on 8 should still be strong at my house.



I live in the Museum District (3 blocks from the old "Channel 6 tower" now only the WTVR-FM 98.1 tower on Broad Street) and use a 4-bay bowtie mounted to the back side of the house - pointed north, right at WUPV. I know that this is a UHF antenna but I have always been able to receive WWBT on RF 12 perfectly with it, even off the back side.


What is the most likely culprit for my reception problem? I'm wondering if a larger VHF antenna would do the trick, or if the issue might be more related to living so close to an FM tower (harmonics or interference).


Aside from WUPV being gone, all the other Richmond stations come in crystal clear with no dropouts with this setup.
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post #8926 of 8929 Old 06-19-2019, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RVACordcutter View Post
Long time lurker, first time poster here. Has anyone been able to receive WUPV reliably since the repack to RF channel 8? I had no problems receiving them on channel 47, and the signal on 8 should still be strong at my house.
We have a channel 7 down here in VB. No problems with my attic-placed ChannelMaster 4228. Can you move it???

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post #8927 of 8929 Old 06-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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At the Sheetz in Ashland, I've picked it up with rabbit ears. Signal was not as resilient as I would have hoped and it was very particular about positioning.

WTVR's second harmonic is not likely to be a problem for you (though it could be for WWBT when it moves from 12 to 10). Other FMs could be a problem if they're particularly strong. You could try an FM trap and see if that helps.

But otherwise, I suspect a VHF antenna would be the biggest help for you.

- Trip

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post #8928 of 8929 Old 06-20-2019, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
WTVR's second harmonic is not likely to be a problem for you (though it could be for WWBT when it moves from 12 to 10). Other FMs could be a problem if they're particularly strong. You could try an FM trap and see if that helps.

But otherwise, I suspect a VHF antenna would be the biggest help for you.

- Trip

Which VHF antenna would you recommend for (what should be) a strong local station? I don't have a lot of space - no chimney on my house, so right now I have the 4-bay bowtie clamped onto a pole on my back deck.


I'll try an FM trap first - there are many strong FM stations at my location, but as far as I know WTVR is the only one that transmits right from the "neighborhood." I'm 3.6 miles east of the big Entercom tower on Basie Rd that carries most of the other Richmond FMs, so perhaps 92.1 WCDX is a culprit for Channel 8 harmonics. I have owned my house only since 2012 so I don't know how analog channel 8 performed there back in the day.
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post #8929 of 8929 Old 06-24-2019, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVACordcutter View Post
Which VHF antenna would you recommend for (what should be) a strong local station? I don't have a lot of space - no chimney on my house, so right now I have the 4-bay bowtie clamped onto a pole on my back deck.

I'll try an FM trap first - there are many strong FM stations at my location, but as far as I know WTVR is the only one that transmits right from the "neighborhood." I'm 3.6 miles east of the big Entercom tower on Basie Rd that carries most of the other Richmond FMs, so perhaps 92.1 WCDX is a culprit for Channel 8 harmonics. I have owned my house only since 2012 so I don't know how analog channel 8 performed there back in the day.
Sorry for the late reply; been tied up. I do think starting with an FM trap is a good idea, but you'll likely want some type of VHF antenna. Unfortunately, many antennas are either very large and cover all bands, or are small and do not deal with VHF. Even many of the VHF-specific antennas have been discontinued. The only high-VHF-specific antenna I know for sure is still in production is the 30-2475. It might be bigger than what you're looking for, but it's also pretty likely to work.

- Trip

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