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post #3391 of 3800 Old 08-31-2018, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robrob10 View Post
If you're watching the Decades website it lists Mpls/STP as "coming soon" for a Decades affiliate.
That recently changed because as of 1pm it still showed 4.2

But looking at the list any city that is losing it and there is nobody picking it up that they now of (as of right now) it shows "coming soon"...so it may not even show up
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post #3392 of 3800 Old 09-05-2018, 07:35 AM
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WCCO and a 2nd sub-channel: technical issues?

The wealth of technical expertise, here, is illuminating.
That said, here's the question:

What technical reasons might come to mind for resisting adding additional OTA sub-channels?

I'm fully aware of the fact that ATSC 1.0 has certain limits for bandwidth use: a 1080 signal, when present, occupies a significant chunk of the channel's allocation.

So?

Is there some important technical reason, of which I'm not aware, to resist adding a 2nd sub-channel?
(Not talking about "rights fees," licensing agreements, corporate ownership or anything other than tech.)

Thought about this in reference to this comment (i.e., "bitstarve") a few weeks ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeff View Post
Most of the time I get all the channels fine but I do get occasional breakups on several channels, mainly the high VHF ones, but others at times also.
Truthfully I'm kind of disappointed in our ATSC1 standard. I mean I like the picture quality if the stations don't bitstarve the channels
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Last edited by MadmanR; 09-05-2018 at 07:38 AM. Reason: clarity
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post #3393 of 3800 Old 09-05-2018, 10:33 AM
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Adding another channel of programming also requires master control equipment to switch in ads and other local content. Ideally, you have someone actually monitoring it and correcting problems. Additional equipment may be needed to get the signal from the studio to the transmitter site.
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post #3394 of 3800 Old 09-05-2018, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
What technical reasons might come to mind for resisting adding additional OTA sub-channels?
You only have so much bandwidth to go around. Also, since WCCO is owned by the network themselves versus a affiliate, the network (CBS) has different rules on how much bandwidth to give to each channel. Until Decades came along in 2015 the 14 CBS owned and operated stations didn't have any subchannels except for NY & Philly that had a low bandwidth traffic/news type channel which was replaced by Decades.

You are allowed approx 18.3 MBps per RF station to use. A full station is 19.39 but about 1Mbps is used for closed captioning, programming, etc
WCCO uses 14.6 for CBS and 2.7 for StartTv.

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Is there some important technical reason, of which I'm not aware, to resist adding a 2nd sub-channel?
(Not talking about "rights fees," licensing agreements, corporate ownership or anything other than tech.)
no room. I would say Corporate ownership but since you didn't allow that as a reason I'll say not enough room to add a second subchannel without harming the picture quality of the CBS portion. Affiliates (those stations not owned by the network) have a little more leeway on subchannels because they can control the bandwidth a little different than a O&O. CBS wants their network stations to utilize as much bandwidth as they can. This leave little left over for the subchannel. Trying to add a second one (without giving it more bandwidth from the main station) will make both subs look like blown up youtube videos.


Quote:
Thought about this in reference to this comment (i.e., "bitstarve") a few weeks ago.
Bitstarve is a word we use when a channel's picture quality looks like crap due to not getting enough bandwidth. Things like smearing and pixeling of the screen are examples when a program is bitstarved.
I have access to 2 CBS & 2 FOX stations. I get WCCO & KMSP from Minneapolis and KEYC from Mankato. KEYC has CBS on 12-1 and FOX on 12-2. Since CBS is the "main" station (been a CBS affiliate since 1961) they are given more bandwidth. They (KEYC) have a setup so they can adjust the bandwidth between the stations depending on programming. If FOX has sports and CBS doesn't then FOX gets more bandwidth. But when both have sports then FOX looks very soft and mushy. Great example was week 3 of NFL pre-season. Vikes played the same time as the CBS national game (Detroit/Tampa) so KEYC had to give more bandwidth to CBS. Result? Vikes game looked like hell honestly. Any fast motion it looked pixelated. The best looking game (picture wise) was week 2 because due to the US Amateur golf on FOX, the Vikes game was carried on CBS.

I will use last Saturdays College Football games. On my Tivo it tells me how much GB was used for a program. There is a formula you can use that will convert that to approx bandwidth (its not 100% accurate but close).
The Early (11am) & Middle (3:00) FOX games were given way less bandwidth than the late (7:00) game. The middle one was the worst because at 2:30 CBS had their college game. The late game was given almost 2 Mbps more bandwidth for the late game because CBS had regular programming.
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post #3395 of 3800 Old 09-05-2018, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
Bitstarve is a word we use when a channel's picture quality looks like crap due to not getting enough bandwidth. Things like smearing and pixeling of the screen are examples when a program is bitstarved.

To add one minor clarifying point, for the OP's benefit, bandwidth is not an absolute measure of quality, either. A terrible encoder can look bad with a lot of bandwidth, while a good encoder can look decent with just a little, and that's leaving aside that the source material could look bad regardless of the quality of the encoder used for broadcast. You can't look at the raw numbers and come to any solid conclusions. For example, you can't look at 12 Mbps one one station and say it will absolutely look worse than 18 Mbps on another.



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post #3396 of 3800 Old 09-05-2018, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
To add one minor clarifying point, for the OP's benefit, bandwidth is not an absolute measure of quality, either. A terrible encoder can look bad with a lot of bandwidth, while a good encoder can look decent with just a little, and that's leaving aside that the source material could look bad regardless of the quality of the encoder used for broadcast. You can't look at the raw numbers and come to any solid conclusions.
Good point.
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post #3397 of 3800 Old 09-06-2018, 08:01 AM
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I'm going to cross post it here. I've got a thread in the technical area about my reception issues (due to terrain). Didnt know if anyone had any additional info
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/25-hd...mn-valley.html
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post #3398 of 3800 Old 09-06-2018, 10:54 AM
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"...move to RF30 Phase 3 April-June next year"

Read your "cross-post" thread and, though I have no tech advice to offer, one comment you made therein stuck out for me:
"they move to RF30 Phase 3 April-June next year."

That's the sort of info I've been looking for:
a TIMELINE for channel re-allocations of MSP signals!

Would you kindly share the source of that comment with me?

Thanks!

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post #3399 of 3800 Old 09-06-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Read your "cross-post" thread and, though I have no tech advice to offer, one comment you made therein stuck out for me:
"they move to RF30 Phase 3 April-June next year."

That's the sort of info I've been looking for:
a TIMELINE for channel re-allocations of MSP signals!

Would you kindly share the source of that comment with me?

Thanks!
Both are only for full powered stations
https://www.nab.org/repacking/clearinghouse.asp
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackchannels.php

Low powered/translators move when either they have the ability to....or they are forced off the air by a full powered/Class A station moving (as was the case with ETWN 16 when KPXM Ion moved early)
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post #3400 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 08:19 AM
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This is all supposition on my part, but I wonder if Univision (MN) WUMN 17.1 is considering adding Decades on 17.2. There has been a channel coming through on 17.2 for about 3 weeks that my TV tuner "says" can't be decoded. I know the national Univision feed has many subchannels on most of their affiliates but the MN Univision is it's own channel. So it's hard to say if Univision MN would add a sub. But 17.2 would be a viable option in this market.
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post #3401 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 09:42 AM
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Interesting and makes me curious...

Which tuner (TV brand) is picking this up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robrob10 View Post
This is all supposition on my part, but I wonder if Univision (MN) WUMN 17.1 is considering adding Decades on 17.2. There has been a channel coming through on 17.2 for about 3 weeks that my TV tuner "says" can't be decoded. I know the national Univision feed has many subchannels on most of their affiliates but the MN Univision is it's own channel. So it's hard to say if Univision MN would add a sub. But 17.2 would be a viable option in this market.
Here's the reason I'm curious:
For the last 10 days I've been fiddling around with the old Homework 150 decoder box, largely since it's the only one with HDMI output.

Re-scanning drove me nuts until I physically relocated that decoder.
Then A/B comparisons with other decoders and the 2 TV built-in tuners.
Results were weird in the extreme...

Awhile back, the 'phantom' signals I'd seen DID register in more than one
of those devices; now none of them see it anymore.
[Matt pointed out that those were unrealized attempts to provide OTA premium content (Showtime, STARZ etc.) probably "scrambled."]

In any event, the number of times/devices I've re-scanned lately has kept me VERY aware of what's out there on MSP airwaves.
But not a 17.2 signal, anywhere, anyhow, anytime.

Guessing that that would be somewhere between 473-521mhz, is there anything more at all you can provide for this signal?
Or could it be you're reading a DX anomaly?

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post #3402 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 10:07 AM
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Subject: Converter boxes, brands, models et al

The partial quote below comes from your "cross-thread" posting, re LeSeur reception.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
When I use the HDB91X https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hdb91x hooked to a Zenith converter box (to lock signal) & a DTV Pal (to fine tune since it has a number)
Anything specific you MOST LIKE about that Zenith converter box?

I've gone through a number of DigitalStream models and even their failures (overheating, careful as I've been to provide open air circulation, plus more than one blown capacitor) haven't dissuaded me from seeing them as the most useful decoder:
Excellent sensitivity, nicely laid-out remote, and an easy menuing system.

I also have a bizarre RCA DTA-800b & a Homeworx 150 in use.

So, believing outboard decoders have a definite use for a few years yet, let me ask if the Zenith to which you referred is the most satisfying for your needs?

And do you have any regard for other brands/models?

(Hey, if I still had the fine motor skills necessary for careful, precise soldering I'd recap the DigitalStream boxes and never need to ask the question about other brands!)

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Last edited by MadmanR; 09-18-2018 at 10:10 AM. Reason: clarity
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post #3403 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robrob10 View Post
This is all supposition on my part, but I wonder if Univision (MN) WUMN 17.1 is considering adding Decades on 17.2. There has been a channel coming through on 17.2 for about 3 weeks that my TV tuner "says" can't be decoded. I know the national Univision feed has many subchannels on most of their affiliates but the MN Univision is it's own channel. So it's hard to say if Univision MN would add a sub. But 17.2 would be a viable option in this market.
I cant see that happening just due to ownership. Media Vista Group based in Florida and they own 3 stations
WUMN
KUKC Kansas City
WLZE & WUVF (satellite/translator) Ft Myers/Naples, FL

All 3 have Univision on them. The Florida stations also have Unimas on them

The Univision O&O stations have agreements with Laff, Justice, Grit, GetTV, Bounce and Escape (Mostly Get & Escape)
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post #3404 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Anything specific you MOST LIKE about that Zenith converter box?
the sensitive tuner which works great for DX'ing. But its SD only since it is an old unit and has just A/V outputs

Quote:
I also have a bizarre RCA DTA-800b & a Homeworx 150 in use.
For converter boxes I have a DTVPal, DTVPal Plus (same thing just a lower signal meter), a Homeworx 150 and about 4 or 5 of the Zenith/Insignia boxes. One I got during the converter coupon deal (when the gov'ment sent you 2 $40 coupons) and the other Zenith/Insignia ones I got at Goodwills. The basic RCA remote for like $6 at Fleet Farm/WalMart/Menards works with it.

If I remember right I acquired a digitalstream box but my dad is using that on a old box TV he has.

Quote:
So, believing outboard decoders have a definite use for a few years yet, let me ask if the Zenith to which you referred is the most satisfying for your needs?
For DX'ing? Yeah its the best I and others have worked with. But again its SD only. Since I have 2 Tivo's they handle my recording needs but the Homeworx works for recording too.
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post #3405 of 3800 Old 09-18-2018, 04:39 PM
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apparently the FCC ran out of letter combinations for translators because the old KEYC translator that was on 38 (its silent right now) and moving to 13 was assigned K13AAR-D. One extra letter than before. Was approved 9/14 but haven't seen any signal yet....rabbitears map says I should be able to get it with my outdoor antenna.

With owners adding CW+ OTA in smaller markets (Jonesboro Arkansas, Presque Isle Maine, Joplin Missouri, Parkersburg West Virginia, Jackson Tennessee, and coming soon to North Platte and Grand Island Nebraska) I could see CW+ being added. And I hope they add a "fuller" bandwidth feed of FOX Mankato because last Sundays Vikings game the picture was horrible...and using the formula for Tivo they apparently were giving it a whopping 5.5ish MBps of bandwidth.
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post #3406 of 3800 Old 09-28-2018, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
apparently the FCC ran out of letter combinations for translators because the old KEYC translator that was on 38 (its silent right now) and moving to 13 was assigned K13AAR-D. One extra letter than before.
I found that odd, too. Thought it was a typo until confirming it in multiple places. First such one I'd seen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
Was approved 9/14 but haven't seen any signal yet....rabbitears map says I should be able to get it with my outdoor antenna.
Weird situation there. CP is good for 36 months per normal, but the translator has been dark since 12/21/18, so the 12-month clock has nearly run out (any station dark for more than 12 months loses its license as a matter of law). Having a CP granted does nothing to extend that deadline.

Normally you'd just fire it up temporarily on its old channel to restart the 12-month clock. But that's out, since T-Mobile began operating on those frequencies a month ago.

And, since you can't/shouldn't/wouldn't be wise to start buying equipment or building out until you have the CP in hand (hence the name, 'construction permit'), there's only 3 months to go from "CP received" to "built and operating". Wouldn't want to be the poor schlub who gets that project

Stay tuned! And send plenty of warm wishes... will need 'em to fend off the frostbite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
And I hope they add a "fuller" bandwidth feed of FOX Mankato because last Sundays Vikings game the picture was horrible...and using the formula for Tivo they apparently were giving it a whopping 5.5ish MBps of bandwidth.
I can't get into specific numbers and the reasons for them. But I'll say this: As someone behind a workbench, I'm continually impressed that such a bit-strangled (cough-threepointtwomegabits-cough) 720p stream can look as good as that one does. As someone on his couch at home, though, I agree that it sucks.

So yes, barring my preferred solution (the Tiffany Network has some funny ideas about what sort of numbers are required to uphold that Tiffany standard), I'm all for having more bandwidth to play with.
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post #3407 of 3800 Old 09-29-2018, 06:42 AM
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Weird situation there. CP is good for 36 months per normal, but the translator has been dark since 12/21/18, so the 12-month clock has nearly run out (any station dark for more than 12 months loses its license as a matter of law). Having a CP granted does nothing to extend that deadline.

Normally you'd just fire it up temporarily on its old channel to restart the 12-month clock.
Oh like some radio stations do
(see examples of that)

Quote:
But that's out, since T-Mobile began operating on those frequencies a month ago.
Interesting that T-Mobile can fine tune what frequencies in the "upper" band they can use. I know CTV/Godahl still has 40, 45 and 49 in use. I figured T-Mobile would want to use that whole band at one time and not parts of it.

Quote:
And, since you can't/shouldn't/wouldn't be wise to start buying equipment or building out until you have the CP in hand (hence the name, 'construction permit'), there's only 3 months to go from "CP received" to "built and operating". Wouldn't want to be the poor schlub who gets that project

Stay tuned! And send plenty of warm wishes... will need 'em to fend off the frostbite.
I'm sure you'll do a good job And yeah we'll send some warm wishes.

Quote:
I can't get into specific numbers and the reasons for them. But I'll say this: As someone behind a workbench, I'm continually impressed that such a bit-strangled (cough-threepointtwomegabits-cough) 720p stream can look as good as that one does. As someone on his couch at home, though, I agree that it sucks.
So yes, barring my preferred solution (the Tiffany Network has some funny ideas about what sort of numbers are required to uphold that Tiffany standard), I'm all for having more bandwidth to play with.
I know with a Tivo there is a formula that you can kinda judge how much bandwidth a program gets and yeah some of those numbers I've seen have been....well lets say not the best. And I'm just assuming that CBS Sports programming gets the most because on a Saturday the bandwidth between the 2 or 3 FOX games can be crazy. The game that is opposite the CBS game I've seen 6MBps and then the late FOX game will all of a sudden have over 8MBps. Again using a formula that someone posted...its not 100% accurate obviously but its close.

I still would like to know what KEYC/United has up their sleeve for programming on the 2nd station.
I have a feeling (just based on recent actions in other markets) that CW+ and possibly Ion would come OTA. Almost seems like they are trying to phase out the CW+ cable only option. But having FOX with a smidge more bandwidth would be nice

Also I do appreciate you posting and giving us updates.
Tony

Last edited by unclehonkey; 09-29-2018 at 06:48 AM.
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post #3408 of 3800 Old 09-29-2018, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
I know with a Tivo there is a formula that you can kinda judge how much bandwidth a program gets and yeah some of those numbers I've seen have been....well lets say not the best.
I assume you mean calculating bit-rate based on the file size of a recording? Totally valid in a constant bit-rate situation. But for stations running variable bit-rate (statistical mux), you'd end up with the average bit-rate for the time period you recorded. There will be peaks and valleys within that span... the number in the depths of the valleys is what kills.

If you happen to have a TV tuner card that works with it - and there are quite a few that do - I highly recommend TSReader. Even the free version. Taking a trip around the dial with it can be very enlightening.

(When I travel, I often carry an old Toughbook running TSReader, and a Hauppauge 950Q USB tuner... my personal "transport stream analyzer". Always interesting to see what stations in other markets are doing - and to make some captures to take home.)
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post #3409 of 3800 Old 10-04-2018, 06:07 PM
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Re-Scan News for MSP market

Just saw an announcement on KMBD (ch 43) tonight that they're moving to ch 33.
Brief blurb only added "please re-scan on October 8th."

Wonder if that will end up bettering the marginal sub-channel reception for .3 (LAFF) and .4 (COZI)?

Meanwhile the 7 sub-channels presently occupying ch 33 are going...where?
Away for good?

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Last edited by MadmanR; 10-04-2018 at 06:15 PM. Reason: addtions
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post #3410 of 3800 Old 10-04-2018, 07:38 PM
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Minneapolis, MN - OTA

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Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Just saw an announcement on KMBD (ch 43) tonight that they're moving to ch 33.
Brief blurb only added "please re-scan on October 8th."

Wonder if that will end up bettering the marginal sub-channel reception for .3 (LAFF) and .4 (COZI)?

Meanwhile the 7 sub-channels presently occupying ch 33 are going...where?
Away for good?
Wow, thank you for that tip. Much/most of our over the air viewing is through the Tivo Roamio OTA. My wife watches directly and I often get content via Tivo Mini connected through the Slingbox 500. As a result, I have to plan on when to re-scan. Monday is a regular work day for both of us, so if I get home before she does, I can re-scan before she even knows anything changed!

I wonder if they do the change over-night, thus everything will be done by the time I would re-scan say at 4:00 or 4:30 PM?
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post #3411 of 3800 Old 10-04-2018, 08:16 PM
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Wow, thank you for that tip. Much/most of our over the air viewing is through the Tivo Roamio OTA. My wife watches directly and I often get content via Tivo Mini connected through the Slingbox 500. As a result, I have to plan on when to re-scan. Monday is a regular work day for both of us, so if I get home before she does, I can re-scan before she even knows anything changed!

I wonder if they do the change over-night, thus everything will be done by the time I would re-scan say at 4:00 or 4:30 PM?
Given TiVo's track record in other markets (so far) with spectrum lineup changes -- even if you do get home first, your wife is going to notice when the TiVo has no guide data for the scanned channel ... and tuning to the channel as displayed by the TiVo results in a blank screen. :-)
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post #3412 of 3800 Old 10-04-2018, 08:18 PM
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*Snarky dig*
If the KMBD engineers/techies are awake before noon...
The first KMBD sub-channel outage might not come until after sunset.
(2 more of such seen in the past 10 days, albeit both were brief)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
I wonder if they do the change over-night, thus everything will be done by the time I would re-scan say at 4:00 or 4:30 PM?
Best guess?
Mid-day.

The day COZI showed up on 43.1 was just before 10:00 a.m.
But it took a determined exchange of half a dozen e-mails -- from me to DTV to KMBD staff -- to convince them that the signal had no audio.
("But everything's fine on our monitor!")
Right.

-----

Still kind'a wondering what happens to the completely irrelevant [IMO] signals now occupying ch 33?

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith
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post #3413 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 05:20 AM
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Here's another tidbit of information. Something I thought would never happen. Directv has added 19 channels to its OTA database for the MPLS/STP DMA. Something that hasn't occurred since 2009. So now 2.5,4.2,5.3,5.6,9.3,9.5,11.3,11.4,23.3,23.4 and more have been added. This is for the AM21 and HR24/34/44/54 and HS17 if you have Directv. Also, there is a new LCC (local channel connector) in the works not yet available from Directv, that will work like the AM21. So anyone still using a AM21 with their Directv to pick up OTA channels in the Twin Cities area can now pickup almost all of the stations with the AM21. And anyone wanting to add this option can purchase a LCC when they become available. So anyone currently using an AM21 should rerun the setup on the AM21 to add a bunch of channels in the TC area.
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post #3414 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 05:49 AM
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Minneapolis, MN - OTA

Interesting comparing notes with folks locally. I am on DirecTV Now in addition to OTA on the Tivo. I wonder if DirecTV Now has any plans to add additional subs there?
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post #3415 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Just saw an announcement on KMBD (ch 43) tonight that they're moving to ch 33.
Brief blurb only added "please re-scan on October 8th."

Wonder if that will end up bettering the marginal sub-channel reception for .3 (LAFF) and .4 (COZI)?

Meanwhile the 7 sub-channels presently occupying ch 33 are going...where?
Away for good?
They are both usually marginal at my house - sometimes there sometimes not. A this time 43 is in @ 16 dB 10% just barely decodable. 33 shows no signal at all 0dB. Could somebody closer look if 33 ABN channels are on the air now? What happens to 43 repack shift to 20 with reduction in ERP from 15 to 3 KW? I like to watch some of the diginets when they are receivable here. 33 used to be in more often than 43.
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post #3416 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 05:16 PM
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Kind of stunned that ANY reception of KMBD (43.1-43.7) is receivable all the way down in Northfield!
Especially given my periodic reception "issues" with their first 4 sub-channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post
They are both usually marginal at my house - sometimes there sometimes not. A this time 43 is in @ 16 dB 10% just barely decodable.
What kind of antenna set-up do you have?
And how many receivers does it feed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post
33 shows no signal at all 0dB. Could somebody closer look if 33 ABN channels are on the air now?
The DigitalStream decoder always captured them so that's what I used to check. After the next re-scan, Monday, I suspect a few may disappear.
All still "register," at present, for me as below:

K33LN-D channel 33 - programming seen

3ABN-PR 33.2 - NO programming seen
3ABN-DD 33.3 - NO programming seen
3ABN-ES 33.4 - NO programming seen
(Above 3 *may* just not have active programming when checked!)

3ABN-RL 33.5 - AUDIO ONLY channel; programming heard
3ABN-RL 33.6 - AUDIO ONLY channel; programming heard
Radio74 33.7 - AUDIO ONLY channel; programming heard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by w0en View Post
What happens to 43 repack shift to 20 with reduction in ERP from 15 to 3 KW? I like to watch some of the diginets when they are receivable here. 33 used to be in more often than 43.
Announcement said the "repack shift" will be to 33 not 20.
Any power reduction makes me nervous.
I guess we'll know this Monday, huh?

Just curious...
How do you fare with other, sometimes 'iffy' sub-channels?
25.6 GetTV for one example.

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Last edited by MadmanR; 10-05-2018 at 05:30 PM.
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post #3417 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Announcement said the "repack shift" will be to 33 not 20.
Any power reduction makes me nervous.
I guess we'll know this Monday, huh?
The thing is KMBD requested channel 20 as their displacement station which was approved on 7/2
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...e631b&goBack=N

But with the owner (HC2) owns 43, 33 and 25. Its possible they decided to move the stuff from 43 over to 33 and just drop the programming on 33. HC2 bought 33 (along with other 3ABN stations) late last year. Then they wouldnt need to spend $$ on a new transmitter for channel 20.

Also remember KJNK is moving from 25 to VHF 8 and at 3kw (the max for a VHF LP station)
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post #3418 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 08:46 PM
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Thanks for the clarification and the fascinating insights, unclehonkey!
I *do* recall the channel 20 option being mentioned previously as the intended 'landing spot' for KMBD, thanks for the reminder below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
The thing is KMBD requested channel 20 as their displacement station which was approved on 7/2
https://enterpriseefiling.fcc.gov/da...e631b&goBack=N

Wish I had a greater facility with prowling the FCC's numerous documents to answer my own questions but haven't managed that yet.

Whether I can figure out/anticipate which stations are moving when, at least I found this chart https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-in...ition-schedule which makes it clear that Phase 1 (the phase we're in) will be completed on November 30th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
But with the owner (HC2) owns 43, 33 and 25. Its possible they decided to move the stuff from 43 over to 33 and just drop the programming on 33. HC2 bought 33 (along with other 3ABN stations) late last year. Then they wouldnt need to spend $$ on a new transmitter for channel 20.
I looked through the document you cited and I think your conclusions are spot on:
'HC2 Holdings,' owning both occupied channels, will move KMBD to 33 and let current channel 33 content vanish.
All likely to occur on Monday, October 8th, surely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
Also remember KJNK is moving from 25 to VHF 8 and at 3kw (the max for a VHF LP station)
'Low power' or not, all else being equal, isn't it generally true (physics & wavelengths) that VHF signals have a greater carrying-power/coverage-area than UHF?
Just as is true with AM over FM radio?

And that, on VHF, KJNK signals would be far less attenuated (if at all) by such things as heavy foliage on trees?
Or am I missing something here, other than 'low power?'

----

It'll be a busy weekend, re-configuring the entire entertainment complex here, made necessary by the fact that it rained inside my apartment last Wednesday.

Good thing my newly-acquired 8-port Channel Master CM-3418 was still unboxed 'cause the intent was to install it in the very same NW corner of the living room whence cameth the ceiling flood.
(No joke: it filled the upward facing half-globe of the floor lamp in that corner. Only noticed what was happening when the bulb began to flicker!)

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Last edited by MadmanR; 10-06-2018 at 07:12 AM.
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post #3419 of 3800 Old 10-05-2018, 11:11 PM
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What kind of antenna set-up do you have?
And how many receivers does it feed?


I bought a bunch of stuff in 2006 when I got interested in the once-in-a-lifetime digital conversion. All my OTA stuff is original CM corp. pre buyout. 8-bay 4228 bowtie @ 17 ft. just over the roofline into an original CM 7777 dual input preamp feeds a PCT 4 channel distro amp. 10 element Winegard high VHF antenna over that 3 ft. and a XG91 pointed towards Rochester/Mason City towers through an A/B switch second CM 7777 over that. Antenna spacing is not optimal but hard to fool with. Cable is Belden solid copper center tri shield, forget the number. MOCA network for OTA TIVO also on this coax line.


4 receivers (TIVO OTA + 3 Samsung 2010 vintage TVs.



Just curious...
How do you fare with other, sometimes 'iffy' sub-channels?
25.6 GetTV for one example.[/QUOTE]

33 - 43 -25 -17 in that order but 25/17 are rarely seen. I don't ever have any problems with individual sub-channels when signal is "in".


41 was almost never seen from Big Lake, now it's 24/7 from their new location/channel 16.
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post #3420 of 3800 Old 10-06-2018, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post

Whether I can figure out/anticipate which stations are moving when, at least I found this chart https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-in...ition-schedule which makes it clear that Phase 1 (the phase we're in) will be completed on November 30th.
actually Minneapolis full power stations are in Phase 3...which here is just KSTC moving from 45 to 30
https://www.nab.org/repacking/clearinghouse.asp

Stations can move earlier if they have the OK from the FCC (like KPXM did) or if they are moving to a channel that is not occupied right now (as other stations in the US have done)

Quote:
I looked through the document you cited and I think your conclusions are spot on:
'HC2 Holdings,' owning both occupied channels, will move KMBD to 33 and let current channel 33 content vanish.
eh I just looked at rabbitears.info
click on a station and then ownership and it will tell you who owns it (or is running it)

Quote:
'Low power' or not, all else being equal, isn't it generally true (physics & wavelengths) that VHF signals have a greater carrying-power/coverage-area than UHF?
Just as is true with AM over FM radio?

And that, on VHF, KJNK signals would be far less attenuated (if at all) by such things as heavy foliage on trees?
Or am I missing something here, other than 'low power?'
as long as your using an outdoor antenna yeah it should be fine. VHF has issues with buildings (as been the issue with KARE 11 and folks with indoor antennas only). But since we dont have any low powered VHF stations right now all we can do is speculate.

Quote:
It'll be a busy weekend, re-configuring the entire entertainment complex here, made necessary by the fact that it rained inside my apartment last Wednesday.
ouch!

One other thing is they could do (just thinking here) is after the stuff on 43 is moved to 33 they could then work on getting the channel 20 transmitter up and running and possibly put the 33 stuff (the 3ABN mux) on 20? Since it is the only low powered station "out of range" (above channel 36).
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