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post #3511 of 3800 Old 01-18-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
Just checked - 62 is coming in just fine.
Thanks you for that. It is time for me to do some checking to see why I no longer receive it.
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post #3512 of 3800 Old 01-19-2019, 10:08 PM
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In the quoted listing, whenever it was posted, at least one missing channel:

9.5 LightTV = a daily afternoon stop, for me, on 'The Patty Duke Show'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
I did a channel scan this morning on one of my Samsung's internal tuners. Among other things I noticed that the channel 62s are gone, at least for me. What happened to them?
Hadn't done a re-scan on the actual TV in quite some time (mostly just on the decoders) but did so, just now, in part to delete the old '43.x' listings still present in its memory.

As Matt said above, all three of the 62.x channels are present and accounted for.

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith
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post #3513 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
In the quoted listing, whenever it was posted, at least one missing channel:

9.5 LightTV = a daily afternoon stop, for me, on 'The Patty Duke Show'



Hadn't done a re-scan on the actual TV in quite some time (mostly just on the decoders) but did so, just now, in part to delete the old '43.x' listings still present in its memory.

As Matt said above, all three of the 62.x channels are present and accounted for.
Thank you for the replies. This morning, they are back. I am not sure what is causing this, but my suspicions are it is somehow "right on the edge" for me. And, of course, since it IS an indoor installation, with MPDI (Multi Path Distortion Interference), it might not take much to change things from being received to not there at all!
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post #3514 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 09:20 AM
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My on-again/off-again problem is with the 33's, especially LAFF 33.3 & COZI 33.4.
Causative variables don't seem easy to figure out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
... I am not sure what is causing this, but my suspicions are it is somehow "right on the edge" for me. And, of course, since it IS an indoor installation, with MPDI (Multi Path Distortion Interference), it might not take much to change things from being received to not there at all!
I'm nowhere near "on the edge" but LAFF & COZI can give me fits!

Now my "indoor installation" is with an (intended to be) outdoor antenna: a rather stylish, sealed, pewter-gray, 6 foot Radio Shack 'bar' antenna.
Works great, not that intrusive insofar as decor is concerned.

What's your TV Fool map look like?
Here's mine ("click to enlarge," of course!)
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"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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post #3515 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 10:21 AM
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http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038c1377af15a

And,at the end of the day, they are NOT "must have" channels for me. It is just sort of nice to get all/most of the local channels, though.
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post #3516 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 12:08 PM
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I'm given to wonder about the current accuracy of TVFool sometimes.
At least insofar as the MSP market is concerned.

For example, though listed in yellow for both of our coverage maps, I've never seen -- or no longer can capture -- the following signals, as per their REAL channel numbers:

16 - K16CHY-D
20 - WDUE-LD
48 - KHVM-LD
* 49 - KMQV-LD (see this reply from Mattdp https://www.avsforum.com/forum/45-lo...l#post56443278 )
* 50 - KTCJ-LD (last seen a year or more ago)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038c1377af15a

And,at the end of the day, they are NOT "must have" channels for me. It is just sort of nice to get all/most of the local channels, though.
Same here.
If it's "out there" I want to be able to capture it!

Ya never know what might show up, such as the weekend Family Film showings on 14.3, some of which can be delightful.

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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post #3517 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
I'm given to wonder about the current accuracy of TVFool sometimes.
At least insofar as the MSP market is concerned..
TVFool hasn't been 'accurate' for quite a bit now. They are using outdated databases and most markets have incorrect results now (with some stations now missing entirely). The site owner has been MIA for a while now. In my opinion, TVFool shouldn't be recommended any longer for OTA analysis with RabbitEars being the best option (although missing the elevation portion of a signal analysis).
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post #3518 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 04:18 PM
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The crap on TVFool is due to two factors: 1)Their database being corrupt/out of date and 2)Applications that never get built (why they get filed in the first place, I don't quite understand).

62 is the weakest station where I'm at. With a Stellar Labs 30-2370 more-or-less directly at Shoreview (in a 1 story attic) it pulls all of about 21dB SNR on good days. In the summer it has dropped below the threshold of receivability. For giggles I bused out the spectrum analyzer took a look. First is a shot of KMSP and KARE for reference. Second is shot of 31,32,33 and 34 (and a bit of 35).
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post #3519 of 3800 Old 01-20-2019, 07:10 PM
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Thanks for the insight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by eherberg View Post
TVFool hasn't been 'accurate' for quite a bit now.

In my opinion, TVFool shouldn't be recommended any longer for OTA analysis with RabbitEars being the best option (although missing the elevation portion of a signal analysis).
Difference between the listings on those websites?

RabbitEars.info eliminated CH 16 & 20
But it still shows 48-49-50, with 49 there solely listed as 'Rochester.'
(That's also true for CH 15 & 27)

No serious gripe, here, as both sites are free to use.

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith
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post #3520 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 03:23 AM
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The difference is that RabbitEars is up to date. The fact that certain signals may not be operating (though they may be licensed) is outside of my control. I list them anyway because they could come on the air with little or no notice.

- Trip

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Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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post #3521 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 10:13 AM
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Trip is especially good at watching these threads and updating what is and isn't on air, along with getting TSReader data.

(Speaking of which Trip, I and several other posters in the Rochester thread have observed that K25NK-D has been off the air since around October. This would make sense as would likely interfere with WQOW Eau Claire.)
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post #3522 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
But it still shows 48-49-50, with 49 there solely listed as 'Rochester.'
(That's also true for CH 15 & 27)

No serious gripe, here, as both sites are free to use.
The ones listed as Rochester have construction permits to move to Twin Cities. Its the HC2/DTV America folks and translators do not need to cover their city of license. They do that in a lot of areas. Buy a translator and get authorization to move it to a larger city nearby
15 and 49-->36 has a CP to be on IDS
27 (RF28) has a CP to be on a tower right outside of New Prague
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post #3523 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 02:33 PM
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You guys are all terrific at sharing information, clearly and concisely!

Very interesting, Unclehonkey...
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
The ones listed as Rochester have construction permits to move to Twin Cities. Its the HC2/DTV America folks and translators do not need to cover their city of license. They do that in a lot of areas. Buy a translator and get authorization to move it to a larger city nearby
15 and 49-->36 has a CP to be on IDS
27 (RF28) has a CP to be on a tower right outside of New Prague
Hoping I understand you correctly, the following:

1. Would you know if there's any possibility of "the HC2/DTV America folks" taking a stronger hand in the MSP market and improving their 'presence' here?

It's not just their signal stability/strength I hope to see bettered but their reliability in terms of somebody keeping their owned signal-facility on air!

As Mattdp said back in late August:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
This has happened numerous times before. Some piece of IT infrastructure farted. The station. Is unmanned, so it usually takes a bit for them to get it back up and running.
2. Are MSP viewers likely to see some additional signal(s), given that "translators do not need to cover their city of license," and will then come from the IDS? -- whatever content that may include?

Finally, a blast from the past relevant to content...

Quote:
Originally Posted by robrob10 View Post
Does anyone think HC2 will add Decades to the their channel mix when they move to 33. I see they carry it, on quite a few other channels they own across the US. Or, if they drop any current affiliates they have.

Wouldn't that be NICE, to have DECADES available here again!

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post #3524 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
Very interesting, Unclehonkey...


Hoping I understand you correctly, the following:

1. Would you know if there's any possibility of "the HC2/DTV America folks" taking a stronger hand in the MSP market and improving their 'presence' here?

It's not just their signal stability/strength I hope to see bettered but their reliability in terms of somebody keeping their owned signal-facility on air!
Looking at things in regards to the channel 15 license they supposedly went live for a day (assume in Rochester) and now are silent. They have until March 4th 2019 to resume operations. The construction permit expires in April (4/22) to be on the air. But I'm sure they can ask for another 6 month extension with reason (the FCC can always deny it).

The RF28 license in New Prague has a couple years to get on the air. Companies have 3 years when a CP is granted to get on the air. That CP expires in Feb 2021. One note is its only a 360 foot tower so Minneapolis may be out of the coverage unless you have a big antenna aimed there

The RF36 permit also expires in about 3 years but has to conform due to KAAL Austin so they would have to aim more north.

But note HC2 has a lot of these translators/construction permits out there across the country and they may not get on the air. Its possible HC2/DTV just has these in case they get pushed off their existing station due to the repack.
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post #3525 of 3800 Old 01-21-2019, 08:28 PM
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I like how 15, 28 and 49 were licensed to the city of Rochester. The theoretical transmitter is located right on HWY 52 just south of Coates at an AGL of 57.' What are they putting the antenna on? A power pole?

Contour extends a few miles past Cannon Falls and is completely gone before you even reach Zumbrota, much less Rochester.

Ol' KPXM was licensed to St. Cloud but transmitted in Big Lake. Considering all of St. Cloud had LOS to KPXM, that seemed a bit more reasonable as "covering St. Cloud."

The IDS app looks a lot more like the other IDS apps, except with a big null to the east.

Would be interested to see if KKTW 19 (located on the microwave tower in Plymouth) ever materializes (Trip - this should this be marked as off air). In some markets, Luken stations carry Heartland, Retro TV, Rev'n, Action Channel and The Family Channel.
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post #3526 of 3800 Old 01-22-2019, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
Would be interested to see if KKTW 19 (located on the microwave tower in Plymouth) ever materializes (Trip - this should this be marked as off air). In some markets, Luken stations carry Heartland, Retro TV, Rev'n, Action Channel and The Family Channel.
I used to work for Luken and my former co-worker there confirmed that it was on the air when it was licensed. It may have gone off since then, but if you've never seen it, then you may just not be able to receive it whether it's on or off.

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post #3527 of 3800 Old 01-22-2019, 10:54 AM
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I dunno. I'm all of about 2 mi away with a clear LOS, right in "green" coverage and I get absolutely nothing.

Weren't they originally an analog TBN translator located in St. Cloud?

I'll have to drive by with an antenna, spectrum analyzer and USB tuner to absolutely confirm (and to see if I can spot an antenna).

Anyone in the TC ever seen anything on 19?

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post #3528 of 3800 Old 01-22-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
Anyone in the TC ever seen anything on 19?
<<putting on smart aleck hat since you said "ever seen">>

I have. I picked up KBJR in Shakopee a few years ago
(they are on RF19)

Also the WPT translator in River Falls is on RF19 and they seem to have a decent coverage into East side of the cities
https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....9&site=1&map=Y
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post #3529 of 3800 Old 01-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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Atmospheric conditions in EXTREME cold?

While we shiver-'n-shake in MSP (and elsewhere, surely) this question is a basic one, given that atmospheric conditions can and do effect broadcast reception:

How and why does extreme cold effect electromagnetic spectrum waves?

This present 'arctic air' is no stranger to us, we who have lived in MN for any serious number of winters, but strange to me is what I've experienced this week with WCCO-TV (4/4.1) signals.
'Block' pixellation, audio drop-outs, even complete screen-blanking.

Although erratic and quickly resolved, I've been seeing this on 2 of my currently in-use TVs. One is a standard CRT, driven by a HomeWorx box, and the other is an LCD using its own, quite strong, tuner.

Anyone else see this phenomenon?
Or have insight to offer?

Stay warm everybody.

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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post #3530 of 3800 Old 01-29-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
...How and why does extreme cold effect electromagnetic spectrum waves?...Anyone else see this phenomenon? Or have insight to offer?...
I am in northern Rosemount (55068) near the Eagan and Inver Grove Heights borders. I have a Tivo Roamio OTA with a CM-4228 in the attic above the attached garage. I just tried 4.1 and I haven't noticed any problems. Could it have anythings to do with your feedline? What is your antenna configuration? Do both of the TVs mentioned share the same antenna?
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post #3531 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 10:47 AM
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Jim,

WCCO hasn't acted-up -- so far -- today.

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Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
I am in northern Rosemount (55068) near the Eagan and Inver Grove Heights borders.
I'm in St. Paul, 1/2 mile or so north of University Avenue near Lexington Parkway.

Elevation: approx 126 feet (9 floors at an average of 14 feet per floor)
Facing west, clear LOS to the IDS building.
Slightly off LOS to the Shoreview antenna farm but not that far off; marginal blockage from internal (metal) framing of my building's construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim1348 View Post
I have a Tivo Roamio OTA with a CM-4228 in the attic above the attached garage. I just tried 4.1 and I haven't noticed any problems. Could it have anythings to do with your feedline? What is your antenna configuration? Do both of the TVs mentioned share the same antenna?
Yes, every video source (4 at the moment) uses the same antenna.
4-way splitter with each tap having a 7db rating.

My coax runs are mostly quite short; single exception (over 6 feet) is NOT to a source on which I observed the WCCO issues noted.

Antenna in use is a Radio Shack RS 15-1847A, intended for OUTDOOR use.
(It's a single 'bar' 76 inches long -- standing up it's 4 inches "talller" than I am!)

Operating Bandwidth: 54-216mhz (VHF) 470-890mhz (UHF )
11db gain is possible if using its amplifier but I'm not.


Over time the only reception problems I've had have been on 33 & its sub-channels, not counting (of course) their numerous outages!

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

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post #3532 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 12:34 PM
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need help with antenna selection in MN. zip 55372

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038e96ed8c224

i have a traditional large attic antenna now that hasn't gotten reception. im not sure if its the antenna, wiring, or just that the attic isnt a good spot for any antenna. also tried an indoor antenna cabled right to TV and it didnt work either. it is a townhome so i do have limited options by association in rooftop for a traditional style.

i could prob get away with the enclosed ufo type antennas rooftop or some similar compact design, but not sure if they are rated very high or not.
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post #3533 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanR View Post
While we shiver-'n-shake in MSP (and elsewhere, surely) this question is a basic one, given that atmospheric conditions can and do effect broadcast reception:

How and why does extreme cold effect electromagnetic spectrum waves?

This present 'arctic air' is no stranger to us, we who have lived in MN for any serious number of winters, but strange to me is what I've experienced this week with WCCO-TV (4/4.1) signals.
'Block' pixellation, audio drop-outs, even complete screen-blanking.

Although erratic and quickly resolved, I've been seeing this on 2 of my currently in-use TVs. One is a standard CRT, driven by a HomeWorx box, and the other is an LCD using its own, quite strong, tuner.

Anyone else see this phenomenon?
Or have insight to offer?

Stay warm everybody.
All the locals coming in fine in Burnsville Even my WiFi internet from 500?? feet away is working fine.....was a bit worried about that but happy to report all is well.
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post #3534 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commoncents View Post
need help with antenna selection in MN. zip 55372

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038e96ed8c224

i have a traditional large attic antenna now that hasn't gotten reception. im not sure if its the antenna, wiring, or just that the attic isnt a good spot for any antenna. also tried an indoor antenna cabled right to TV and it didnt work either. it is a townhome so i do have limited options by association in rooftop for a traditional style.

i could prob get away with the enclosed ufo type antennas rooftop or some similar compact design, but not sure if they are rated very high or not.
So, are you able to post a picture of the antenna in the attic now? Do you happen to know the make and model of it? Did you install it or was it there when you moved into this townhome? What exactly are your limitations? Do they prohibit ANY external antenna? I seem to recall reading something in the past that FCC has something that can be helpful.

What is the coaxial feedline? Is it good quality, low loss, RG-6 or is it inferior RG-59? How many feet of it are there? Generally, in a towns-home, it probably isn't hundred of feet. HAve you talked to any of your neighbors to see what works for them?

Once you answer the questions I posted, I will be in a better position to answer your concerns.
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post #3535 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 09:39 PM
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More specific information needed for anyone to assist you, as noted by Jim1348

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commoncents View Post
it is a townhome so i do have limited options by association in rooftop for a traditional style.
By law, the FCC does not allow "restrictions" of this kind to interfere with your ability to receive broadcast signals.

From the FCC's own website: https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-r...n-devices-rule
The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) has been in effect since October 1996, and it prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming.

The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas.

The rule prohibits most restrictions that:
(1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use;
(2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or
(3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.


These 'homeowner association convenants' have been negated, in court and otherwise, repeatedly, over many years so do some research there and prepare to fight for your rights if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Commoncents View Post
i could prob get away with the enclosed ufo type antennas rooftop or some similar compact design, but not sure if they are rated very high or not.
How antennae are "rated" is meaningless if the conditions under which their signal-capture capability is measured differs radically from your own.

Example:
The idiotic pitch-man on commercials who screams "What a great signal!" his little FreeTVKey gets -- on a boat in the Gulf of Mexico! -- means nothing.
Try selling that to a guy whose TV is in the middle of a forest!
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Last edited by MadmanR; 01-30-2019 at 10:01 PM.
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post #3536 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 10:53 PM
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Pardon me if I have a little fun with this...
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Originally Posted by mattdp View Post
Anyone in the TC ever seen anything on 19?
Yesterday's news but a story I've told for years:
Reception of a PBS UHF channel 19 from River Falls, WI, that NO ONE else could either believe or get themselves.

But I watched WCHA hockey games on it semi-regularly for a couple of years!
(In other words, not a D-X reception, OK?)

My family occupied the top floor of a duplex in south Minneapolis to which I had easy attic-access (via a ceiling 'trap') at all times of the year.
The building itself was fairly high above local terrain and by the time you were in the attic you were way, WAY up high above ground level!
(Local realtors now refer to this rather small area as 'Cedar Heights')

We got our first color TV but wiggling the set's antenna rods to get decent reception every time the channel was changed got old very fast for all of us.

So I bought a nice big multi-element antenna, mast, and tripod from nearby Schaak Electronics, for my grandmother's October birthday, and proceeded to educate myself in everything from coax -vs- flat lead, proper grounding, splitters/combiners, matching transformers et al.
(Not completely a 'square one' educational process really as I'd already had several years worth of learning high-fidelity audio systems & connectivity.)

Once I'd finished the Alfred Hitchcock suspense-sequence of teetering on a +2-story high ladder stuck in shifting ground, while drilling a hole through the window frame into the living room, it was "TV time!"

Clicked my way through tuner stops and -- I swear! -- found something on VHF never seen before, possibly on channel 13, though truly "marginal" at best.

Then it was on to UHF.
Nothing much to see but thought I'd "heard something" just above KTCI-17.

A bit of time went by, the seasons changed, but I could still get into the attic through that ceiling 'trap' and suddenly there was a reason to do so:
Channel 19 was -- almost -- an intelligible signal.
(Sure, it was "colored snow" on that screen but beneath the blizzard were very obvious hockey players skating around.)

Back to Schaak for a 2nd antenna, this time a "deep fringe" UHF-only model.

Took some trial-and-error time (and someone in the living room monitoring results) to get the height optimal -- that is, the vertical separation between the two antennae -- but the optimum aimed direction was strictly for...
Channel 19, Public Television, out of River Falls.

So that was a Loooonnng way to go to answer you, Matt:
"Anyone in the TC ever seen anything on 19?"
Yes, sir!
And that'd be starting about 40 years ago, lasting roughly from 1978-82.

(Hope I didn't bore you with the tale!)

"In the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Last edited by MadmanR; 01-30-2019 at 11:02 PM.
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post #3537 of 3800 Old 01-30-2019, 11:19 PM
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I CAN actually believe you were able to get River Falls from S. Minneapolis. And as it would happen, I believe that translator is actually currently on Ch. 19 (somehow I was unaware of that when I wrote my last post) https://www.rabbitears.info/contour....9&site=1&map=Y

I'll have to check the next time I'm out that way. My location registers nothing (then again, it's all of 10ft AGL). A 19 from Plymouth pointing eastward would probably cause problems.
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post #3538 of 3800 Old 02-08-2019, 06:20 PM
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KEYC Mankato sold. Gray bought out United Communications (which is just KEYC and the CBS & FOX in Watertown, NY)

http://www.keyc.com/story/39933764/g...ase-of-keyc-tv

United Communications Corporation has reached an agreement to sell KEYC News 12 to Gray Communications.

“Exiting the broadcast industry and communities we have come to love is very difficult,” explained United Communications’s president, Lucy Brown. “United’s Board came to this decision with a heavy heart, but one that looks to the future with great optimism. We determined that though our TV stations enjoy tremendous success, the time has come when ownership by a larger group offers greater prospects to compete in this new media environment. With Gray we found a broadcast company with shared values and commitments to localism. We are confident that Gray will provide the resources and leadership to allow our employees and stations to best serve their local communities going forward.”

The purchase of KEYC News 12, FOX 12 Mankato and two stations in Watertown, New York, represents Gray’s first acquisitions in New York and Minnesota.

United Communications has owned KEYC News 12 since 1977 when it purchased the station from Lee Enterprises. KEYC added a FOX affiliate in 2007.

“We are honored to be selected by United as the new owners of legacy stations KEYC and WWNY,” said Kevin Latek, Gray’s chief legal and development officer. “We look forward to working with the dedicated employees to further enhance these stations’ record of service and success.”

The sale is expected to be complete in the second quarter of 2019 following regulatory approvals. Gray Television will begin operating the stations on March 1, 2019 under an agreement with United Communications.

Gray owns and/or operates television stations and leading digital properties in 91 television markets across the United States.


This brings up a couple things
-wonder what will happen with the channel 13 translator that KEYC has the CP for on their tower in Lewisville?
-hopefully they can give FOX some more bandwidth because as mentioned a few times it isnt the best. Lots of pixeling and mush. Hopefully Gray gets a new encoder as they have 2 HD stations on one RF in multiple markets and those look good.
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post #3539 of 3800 Old 02-08-2019, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
-wonder what will happen with the channel 13 translator that KEYC has the CP for on their tower in Lewisville?
If I were a betting person, which I'm not, I would anticipate seeing NBC and ABC appear there sooner rather than later.

- Trip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
If I were a betting person, which I'm not, I would anticipate seeing NBC and ABC appear there sooner rather than later.

- Trip
With Gray in the mix the odds of that happening are alot better than when under United's ownership
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