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post #3841 of 3906 Old 11-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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The station has not been assigned a TSID; perhaps that is what TiVo is unhappy about? ( @kthelen PM or e-mail me if you need to be pointed to the person at the FCC who assigns them.)

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post #3842 of 3906 Old 11-02-2019, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthelen View Post
Either would accomplish the same thing ;-)

KMNF is actually running on a stack of old Tandberg stuff I had laying around, and didn't put a whole lot of effort into configuring; it's entirely possible I overlooked something. (A new Harmonic encoder is on its way, so the existing stuff was hastily thrown together as a temporary solution.)

I'll take a look when I'm back at the studio on Monday.
Sounds good! My TV and converter boxes had no problem with showing video but the Tivo (both Series3/HD and Roamio) scanned it in but no video/audio.

I'm sure you'll figure it out

Do you have a approximate date of "sign on" for NBC & CW? or is that top secret
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post #3843 of 3906 Old 11-02-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
The station has not been assigned a TSID; perhaps that is what TiVo is unhappy about? ( @kthelen PM or e-mail me if you need to be pointed to the person at the FCC who assigns them.)

- Trip
The person at tivocommunity mentions they had issues with the TSID so that is probably it
Quote:
In my situation I discovered the problem station had the "Transport Stream ID" (TSID) in the "Program Association Table" (PAT) set wrongly from the correct TSID setting in the "Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table" (TVCT)
I remember when I worked with free to air years ago some receivers had issues unless the PIDS were entered properly

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post #3844 of 3906 Old 11-02-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
Sounds good! My TV and converter boxes had no problem with showing video but the Tivo (both Series3/HD and Roamio) scanned it in but no video/audio.
A quick (off-site) check with TSReader makes me think perhaps a particular downstream mux is getting in the way of the PCR PIDs. Should be a pretty simple fix once I'm on site... and a bit surprising/embarrassing that I missed it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
Do you have a approximate date of "sign on" for NBC & CW? or is that top secret
I don't want to see any "real" content put on the air until our new encoder arrives (trust me, an E5780 doing 720p at 6Mbps is ugg-lee). There's also a bit of master control stuff left to be done. So, wild guess, I'd say 2 or 3 weeks from now... but again, that's just one man's guess.
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post #3845 of 3906 Old 11-03-2019, 01:25 PM
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funny how today in the Free Press the "ask us guy" got a question about NBC and CW timeframe And a interesting answer about ABC too
https://www.mankatofreepress.com/new...b33eb1de3.html

Q: I have been eagerly awaiting the chance to watch “This is Us” live over the air since KEYC-TV announced it will begin broadcasting the NBC and CW networks in September. It’s now October and still no “This is Us.” What’s the deal?

Sincerely,
Too cheap to subscribe to cable

A: Ask Us Guy, who’s a bit out of touch with popular culture, doesn’t know what “This Is Us” is. But he does remember the story from earlier this year that KEYC was preparing to add two more channels to its CBS and FOX offerings. “I don’t have a definite date,” said Ed Woloszyn, general manager of KEYC. “That’s only because any little thing can throw it off ... .”

Equipment needs to be added 1,000 feet in the air at KEYC’s tower, more is required in the master control room at the KEYC studio, and some staff training will be necessary. Woloszyn, who’s pleased he already has one guaranteed viewer waiting to watch NBC, said he was confident the peacock and CW will be traveling over the airways for free sometime this month. And he was willing to say it won’t be the very, very end of the month.

“I feel real confident that by Thanksgiving, people will have new channels in this market,”
he said. So, even without cable, the cheap reader will be able to see all three Turkey Day NFL games: Bears v. Lions at 11:30 a.m. on FOX, Bills v. Cowboys at 3:30 p.m. on CBS, and Saints vs. Falcons at 8:20 p.m. on NBC. Well, there is one caveat. Because of the valleys and ravines and other topographical features of the Mankato area, Woloszyn said he can’t guarantee every TV in every home will get clear reception from the over-the-air stations unless they invest in an antenna. He suggested talking to the experts at local stores that sell televisions and other electronic equipment. “For the most part, if they’ve got a decent antenna pointed in the right direction, they should be able to get our channels,” he said.

By the way, Ask Us Guy wondered if maybe KEYC would target ABC as its next offering. Woloszyn said that’s not likely because of anti-monopoly regulations.
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post #3846 of 3906 Old 11-04-2019, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthelen View Post
A quick (off-site) check with TSReader makes me think perhaps a particular downstream mux is getting in the way of the PCR PIDs. Should be a pretty simple fix once I'm on site... and a bit surprising/embarrassing that I missed it!
Got home tonight and flipped over to 7-1 & 7-2 on the Tivo and now have video and audio
Thanks for fixing that so fast!
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post #3847 of 3906 Old 11-06-2019, 05:27 PM
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After a Tivo update (nightly connection) 7-1 & 7-2 are now official in the channel list and there is guide info for 7-2 CW. Its the same info as the CW+ network
7-1 just says TBA
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post #3848 of 3906 Old 11-16-2019, 06:51 AM
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December 1st NBC & CW comes to Mankato. Saw it on the news last night

https://www.keyc.com/2019/11/15/prog...t-soon-nbc-cw/

It’s been on the air for a couple of weeks, and we can now tell you when programming will begin on our new sister stations.

Programming from NBC and the CW will start airing on KMNF channel 7 on Sunday, December 1.

The KEYC Engineering department turned the transmitter on back on October 28.
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post #3849 of 3906 Old 11-16-2019, 09:43 AM
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Anyone else having reception issues with K33LN-D?
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post #3850 of 3906 Old 11-16-2019, 03:02 PM
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At the moment, no...

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Originally Posted by JoeHanson View Post
Anyone else having reception issues with K33LN-D?
...checked every one of their channels and they're fine at my house.

But when (to repeat a many-times-quoted comment from Mattdp) "some piece of infrastructure farted" I'd long since given up on counting on getting a reliable signal from K33LN-D, whichever channel happens to be of interest.


Fortunately, at least for COZI programming, when YouTubeTV added them to their lineup I've been able to see what I want consistently & reliably.
(Presently including 'My Favorite Martian,' shown at the un-godly hour of 03:00!)

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post #3851 of 3906 Old 11-16-2019, 09:33 PM
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Regarding KMNF channel 7, how much power does it transmit with and how far is it expected to get out for people to receive? How does it compare with KEYC for power and area covered?

Also, I'm not aware of anything being transmitted on channel 13 (RF 13). Why doesn't the Twin Cities have a TV station on channel 13. I realize WEAU used to use channel 13 but they now broadcast on a UHF frequency. I would think a full power station could use channel 13.

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post #3852 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Runch Machine View Post
Regarding KMNF channel 7, how much power does it transmit with and how far is it expected to get out for people to receive? How does it compare with KEYC for power and area covered?
KMNF-LD broadcasts only 3,000 watts (highest wattage for a low powered VHF station)
KEYC broadcasts with 52,700 watts

approximate KMNF coverage (Mankato topography does cause some issues for folks and they need a bigger/better antenna)


KEYC I had no problems picking up in Shakopee when I lived there and the signal was normally there except during storms

Quote:
Also, I'm not aware of anything being transmitted on channel 13 (RF 13). Why doesn't the Twin Cities have a TV station on channel 13. I realize WEAU used to use channel 13 but they now broadcast on a UHF frequency. I would think a full power station could use channel 13.
closest RF13 is Fargo and Sioux Falls but I dont understand the question? Are you referring to a full powered station moving to RF13? Probably wouldnt happen due to the issues with VHF signals and the junky indoor antennas.
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post #3853 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 12:17 PM
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....but I dont understand the question? Are you referring to a full powered station moving to RF13? Probably wouldnt happen due to the issues with VHF signals and the junky indoor antennas.
I'm guessing Runch is wondering why no one is using ch 13 in a major metropolitan area like MSP why leave a channel like 13 unused....
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post #3854 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 12:35 PM
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jjeff is right. With all the low powered stations in the market, why doesn't one of them apply for RF13. Wouldn't it be nice if 33 moved to 13 with 52,000 watts? Or perhaps the owners of KARE 11 could apply for RF13 and operate a second full power station like Hubbard does with the 5.2 group of channels or KMSP does with RF29.

As far as KEYC, I'm wondering why they didn't apply for a full powered UHF or VHF channel. Where is the closest channel 7 to Mankato? Didn't CBS turn in the spectrum for KCMT or what ever they renamed it to?

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post #3855 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runch Machine View Post
Also, I'm not aware of anything being transmitted on channel 13 (RF 13). Why doesn't the Twin Cities have a TV station on channel 13. I realize WEAU used to use channel 13 but they now broadcast on a UHF frequency. I would think a full power station could use channel 13.
The reason is that the FCC has not accepted applications for new full-power stations since WEAU changed channel and no Twin Cities UHF station chose to be relocated to VHF in the spectrum auction.

If the FCC ever decided to take applications for new full-power TV stations, someone could theoretically apply for channel 13 at Minneapolis, but they would probably have to select a different virtual channel because of overlap with WEAU. (Channels 2-7 are also open, but 7 is the only one that's available for both a physical and virtual channel at Minneapolis. This is due to the surrender of KCCO-TV in the spectrum auction.)

Any station transmitting on VHF would face the same reception challenges that KARE 11 and KMSP/9.9 have faced. They do get out great if you have a good rooftop VHF antenna, but very few people have one of those.
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post #3856 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Runch Machine View Post
jjeff is right. With all the low powered stations in the market, why doesn't one of them apply for RF13. Wouldn't it be nice if 33 moved to 13 with 52,000 watts?
low powered stations cannot go higher than 15,000 watts on UHF or 3,000 watts on VHF. Also low powered stations can not go full power without an act of god (err the FCC)

Quote:
Or perhaps the owners of KARE 11 could apply for RF13 and operate a second full power station like Hubbard does with the 5.2 group of channels or KMSP does with RF29.
Jon Ellis already answered that part above


Quote:
As far as KEYC, I'm wondering why they didn't apply for a full powered UHF or VHF channel.
simple. FCC rules state one owner cannot own 2 of the big 4 networks in a market if they are full powered stations (you need at least 8 full powered stations for duopolies). If they are a subchannel (as is the case of KEYC-DT2 FOX) or a low powered station (as KMNF will be) those are exempt. There are some new rules like failing station waiver but for simplicity if there are less than 8 full powered stations in a market you cant own 2 of the top 4 stations in a market. KEYC already had the station available. KMNF use to be a translator for KEYC on the St James (Godahl) tower where CTV co-op is. They pipe in the Mpls stations. This allowed someone to only need a UHF antenna to get all stations....also KEYC tower is in Lewisville, some 25 miles south of Mankato whereas Godahl is west of Mankato. Well 2 years ago CTV and KEYC couldnt reach an agreement so it went silent. KEYC fired up that translator at the KEYC tower last November now on RF13 for a week or so to keep the license active (if a station falls silent for 365 days then the license is surrendered). Then it went silent and then Gray petitioned for RF7 because they could use an omni signal versus RF13 which had to conform to short spacing by RF13 Sioux Falls.

Quote:
Where is the closest channel 7 to Mankato?
Sioux Falls FOX is on RF7

Quote:
Didn't CBS turn in the spectrum for KCMT or what ever they renamed it to?
yes. CBS got around 10 million for it

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post #3857 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 07:36 PM
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new week and a new question in the Free Press to the "Ask Us Guy" about the new NBC coming


Q: I am concerned that if KEYC-TV adds NBC to their channel lineup, what is going to happen to the KARE 11 News broadcast? We do not want to lose this channel.

A: This question is a reference to KEYC’s new channel offerings, NBC and CW, which will be coming soon — along with the station’s existing CBS and FOX channels — to people who get their TV signals over the air. Cable and satellite companies providing TV service in the Mankato market will be required to offer KEYC’s NBC channel, just as they’re required to provide the local versions of CBS and FOX, according to Ed Woloszyn, general manager of KEYC. “We will be the NBC station of license in the market,” Woloszyn said. “... We need to be on their lineups.” That doesn’t mean, though, that the cable company can’t also provide each network’s Twin Cities station as well.
Ask Us Guy, for instance, has the most basic cable offering from Charter or Spectrum or whatever it’s called now and gets two CBS and two FOX channels — the KEYC versions as well as WCCO and KMSP. So it’s entirely up to the cable or satellite TV providers whether they will drop KARE when the local NBC channel begins operation.

“Express to your provider what you want,” Woloszyn advised. He also provided an update on the anticipated arrival of the new channels. “Right now Dec. 1 is a target date everybody is working towards — sooner if possible,” he said. KEYC is already emitting a signal (but not programming) for the two new channels, so cableless people can check now to see if their antenna is picking up the signal or if they’ll need a better antenna.
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post #3858 of 3906 Old 11-17-2019, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Ellis View Post
The reason is that the FCC has not accepted applications for new full-power stations since WEAU changed channel and no Twin Cities UHF station chose to be relocated to VHF in the spectrum auction.

If the FCC ever decided to take applications for new full-power TV stations, someone could theoretically apply for channel 13 at Minneapolis, but they would probably have to select a different virtual channel because of overlap with WEAU. (Channels 2-7 are also open, but 7 is the only one that's available for both a physical and virtual channel at Minneapolis. This is due to the surrender of KCCO-TV in the spectrum auction.)

Any station transmitting on VHF would face the same reception challenges that KARE 11 and KMSP/9.9 have faced. They do get out great if you have a good rooftop VHF antenna, but very few people have one of those.
Jon, is there a freeze on full power TV station applications? Is the FCC formally not accepting applications for full power TV stations?

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post #3859 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Ellis View Post
no Twin Cities UHF station chose to be relocated to VHF in the spectrum auction.
Hubbard was willing to move KSTC to VHF as part of that station's unsuccessful participation in the spectrum auction. The original option taken was "go off-air," but, as the auction progressed, that was changed to "move to low-VHF," and, finally, "move to high-VHF" before the station dropped out of the auction.

Incidentally, KCCW, KPXM, KTCA, WFTC, and WUCW also participated unsuccessfully in the spectrum auction, but all entirely under the "go off-air" option.
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post #3860 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 05:49 AM
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.....Incidentally, KCCW, KPXM, KTCA, WFTC, and WUCW also participated unsuccessfully in the spectrum auction, but all entirely under the "go off-air" option.
Surely your not saying all those channels offered to "go off-air" forever? I guess I don't really know what the "go off-air" means
I suppose I could see a big corporation taking the money and running but KTCA?? what advantage would a non-profit have in shutting down...
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post #3861 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 06:59 AM
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Surely your not saying all those channels offered to "go off-air" forever? I guess I don't really know what the "go off-air" means
I suppose I could see a big corporation taking the money and running but KTCA?? what advantage would a non-profit have in shutting down...
go off the air meant turn off their transmitter for the RF station they are using. Most stations that did this option did end up channel sharing with someone else. If a owner had 2 stations in a market they just crammed all their stations together. Otherwise they reached agreements with other owners who stayed on the air

So lets say FOX did take the money for WFTC and went "off the air"...They would have crammed everything on KMSP's RF station (think of how that picture would look). They still own the license for WFTC but wouldn't have had a transmitter (RF station) to broadcast on.

KTCA would have probably put everything on KTCI as a channel sharing option

Originally KCCO in Alexandria was going to channel share with KSAX but that fell through. So CBS returned the license for KCCO.
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post #3862 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 03:13 PM
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go off the air meant turn off their transmitter for the RF station they are using. Most stations that did this option did end up channel sharing with someone else. If a owner had 2 stations in a market they just crammed all their stations together. Otherwise they reached agreements with other owners who stayed on the air

So lets say FOX did take the money for WFTC and went "off the air"...They would have crammed everything on KMSP's RF station (think of how that picture would look). They still own the license for WFTC but wouldn't have had a transmitter (RF station) to broadcast on.

KTCA would have probably put everything on KTCI as a channel sharing option

Originally KCCO in Alexandria was going to channel share with KSAX but that fell through. So CBS returned the license for KCCO.
Ah, that makes more sense thanks for the explanation.
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post #3863 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 03:28 PM
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Ah, that makes more sense thanks for the explanation.
Milwaukee is a great example of channel sharing

Sinclair "cashed in" their My station (WCGV) for a smidge over 84 million. They merged the stations (My and Comet) onto their existing CW station (WVTV) but kept 24-1 & 24-2. So when you scan you get 18-1 (CW), 24-1 (My) and 24-2 (Comet)

Milwaukee PBS sold WMVT (secondary PBS) for 85 million and merged their 2 PBS info together. So its 10-1 PBS, 10-2 Create, 10-3 Kids, 36-1 PBS, 36-2 World and 36-3 Weather. 10-1 & 36-1 are in HD

VCY sold WVCY for 76 million...they cut an agreement with Tribune's (at the time) FOX WITI to share on that frequency. When you have 2 different companies sharing a RF frequency the "host" company gets to decide how much bandwidth to give the "guest". So obviously Tribune (now Nexstar and soon to be FOX) get more bandwidth than VCY religious does

The amount of money was based on need. Since Milwaukee and Chicago are so close to each other (and Green Bay and Madison) those markets the stations "in core already" (up to 36) got the most money versus a station say on channel 48 or in a market like Rapid City

Some of the "opening prices" were just insane (although they didnt get those prices). WCBS in NY opening price to go off the air was 900 million dollars and WNBC was almost as much...WNBC did get 214 million to go "off the air"...they now channel share with Telemundo station

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post #3864 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 03:37 PM
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anywho back in The Key City (Mankato) KMNF is now showing a loop of programming on 7-1. It was a loop video of a car going through the Kwik Trip car wash. Now it was a drone video of a combine harvesting and some folks ice fishing

Hopefully soon NBC & CW go live
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post #3865 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kthelen View Post
KMNF is actually running on a stack of old Tandberg stuff I had laying around, and didn't put a whole lot of effort into configuring; it's entirely possible I overlooked something. (A new Harmonic encoder is on its way, so the existing stuff was hastily thrown together as a temporary solution.)
That new encoder must have arrived recently. Only reason I say that is both KMNF stations were showing 1080i outputs and now 7-1 is 1080i but 7-2 is 720p. Also no audio on either 7-1 or 7-2...
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post #3866 of 3906 Old 11-18-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post
Hubbard was willing to move KSTC to VHF as part of that station's unsuccessful participation in the spectrum auction. The original option taken was "go off-air," but, as the auction progressed, that was changed to "move to low-VHF," and, finally, "move to high-VHF" before the station dropped out of the auction.

Incidentally, KCCW, KPXM, KTCA, WFTC, and WUCW also participated unsuccessfully in the spectrum auction, but all entirely under the "go off-air" option.
When you say they were unsuccessful, does that mean the bids offered were not enough to make worthwhile to go off the air?
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post #3867 of 3906 Old 11-19-2019, 03:34 AM
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When you say they were unsuccessful, does that mean the bids offered were not enough to make worthwhile to go off the air?

More or less, yes. What those stations wanted for their spectrum didn't align with what the spectrum buyers were willing to pay.
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post #3868 of 3906 Old 11-19-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
It was a loop video of a car going through the Kwik Trip car wash
Shot with a GoPro on my lunch break yesterday. Figured the viewers needed more Tri-Color Foaming Wax in their schedule :-)


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Now it was a drone video of a combine harvesting and some folks ice fishing
...and, most importantly for my purposes, shots of the Minneopa waterfall, and football highlights (those two being a good "torture test" for the new encoders being configured).


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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
That new encoder must have arrived recently. Only reason I say that is both KMNF stations were showing 1080i outputs and now 7-1 is 1080i but 7-2 is 720p. Also no audio on either 7-1 or 7-2...
Correct. The new video loop started mid-afternoon, feeding both encoder setups in parallel. By 5pm, the new encoder was switched to air. As for the audio, still a bit of work to be done there... all the audio channels are actually being encoded, but they're just being fed silence at the moment.



--Keith
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post #3869 of 3906 Old 11-19-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kthelen View Post
...and, most importantly for my purposes, shots of the Minneopa waterfall, and football highlights (those two being a good "torture test" for the new encoders being configured).
good point. I know you mentioned KMNF wont have the bandwidth constraints like KEYC does (where CBS gets the priority) but I assume NBC will have more bandwidth than CW will?

Quote:
Correct. The new video loop started mid-afternoon, feeding both encoder setups in parallel. By 5pm, the new encoder was switched to air. As for the audio, still a bit of work to be done there... all the audio channels are actually being encoded, but they're just being fed silence at the moment.
good to know about the audio. Thought the Tivo was having issues but I see even the TV didnt have audio

I now previously you had mentioned the possibility of KMNF being on the air 24/7 and not signing off. Is that still the thought process and if so what will fill the overnight on KEYC? Just the weather maps that are on normally for cable and satco customers?

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post #3870 of 3906 Old 11-20-2019, 07:57 AM
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I assume NBC will have more bandwidth than CW will?
Potentially. It's much more dynamic with this new setup (no arbitrary high/low limits that I'm aware of), but NBC will get "first dibs" in times of peak demand.


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good to know about the audio. Thought the Tivo was having issues but I see even the TV didnt have audio
People keep being confused by the lack of audio. Guess I should feed it something :-)


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Originally Posted by unclehonkey View Post
I now previously you had mentioned the possibility of KMNF being on the air 24/7 and not signing off. Is that still the thought process and if so what will fill the overnight on KEYC? Just the weather maps that are on normally for cable and satco customers?
This was an unknown for some time, with the likelihood of 24/7 looking rather strong for a while there. But the current schedule seems to indicate nightly sign-off, with things handled much as they are on KEYC. Seems likely NBC will carry weather graphics overnight; not sure about CW+ (though, depending on where/if it gets cable carriage, that might be a moot point).


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The opinions expressed above do not represent those of my station, my boss, his dog, my co-workers, the crickets hiding in the studio, or anyone/anything else.
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