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post #12751 of 12798 Old 01-08-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
Is it eMatic -HDMI-> receiver -HDMI-> TV, or eMatic -HDMI-> TV -S/PDIF-> receiver?

Because, if it's the latter, you'll never get DD to the receiver due to HDCP.
eMatic -HDMI out-> DEnon 4400 receiver -HDMI-input> receiver HDMI out> JVC RS420 HDMI input
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post #12752 of 12798 Old 01-11-2019, 11:27 AM
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Swapped out the eMatic 103 for this one
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and now I get 5.1 DD on my Denon 4400 from Fox 2 Detroit via antenna!

The new box appears to have a more sensitive tuner, and the Audio menu has more options:

PCM, RAW HDMI Audio on, RAW HDMI Audio Off (coax out)

The eMatic did not have a coax out, and apparently could only send 2ch PCM over HDMI
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post #12753 of 12798 Old 01-11-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgb View Post
Swapped out the eMatic 103 for this one
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

and now I get 5.1 DD on my Denon 4400 from Fox 2 Detroit via antenna!

The new box appears to have a more sensitive tuner, and the Audio menu has more options:

PCM, RAW HDMI Audio on, RAW HDMI Audio Off (coax out)

The eMatic did not have a coax out, and apparently could only send 2ch PCM over HDMI
I take it that the user interface with this converter box is essentially the same as the eMatic?

You mentioned that this converter box has a more sensitive tuner. Assuming that you're using your existing antenna, are you getting a stable signal above 80 percent with occasional breakups?

Newer is not always better.
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post #12754 of 12798 Old 01-11-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdog 88 View Post
I take it that the user interface with this converter box is essentially the same as the eMatic?

You mentioned that this converter box has a more sensitive tuner. Assuming that you're using your existing antenna, are you getting a stable signal above 80 percent with occasional breakups?
Yes, the menu GUI appears the same, except for the added Audio options for HDMI

I was just guessing re: tuner, maybe a better chipset and/or filtering- more channels and more stable signals

Watched Gotham & Orville on FOX2 WJBK last night, ~65% +/-3% on the Info menu meter.

No visible/audible issues during entire show.

The box actually picked up 60 channels from SW Dearborn area

with a Winegard FL55YR using included amp
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

the kicker is- antenna was taped to a north facing basement glass block window for quick testing in my basement theater!

Maybe some ground interaction amplifies or stabilizes the signal- bottom edge of antenna is essentially flush with the ground.

Last edited by Rgb; 01-12-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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post #12755 of 12798 Old 01-12-2019, 06:54 PM
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Pics showing menu GUI of "Nunet" branded tuner box with FOX2 WJBK signal level, eMatic and Nunet OTA/ClearQAM tuner/DVR boxes and Winegard FL55YR on glass block window.

"Business end" of boxes shows ports, with the Nunet adding SPDIF coax and analog component YPbPr vs the eMatic

Quite good reception for VHF channel 7 (WJBK Fox2) with the Winegard "flat" antenna, which I assumed was optimized for UHF.
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post #12756 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 12:49 PM
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What's the best way to pick up edge diffracted signals?

TVFool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038d82ae76c8e


So I'm fairly new to DXing and I'm looking to get a station that's a bit far from me, but not too far where it would be impossible to pick up. I'm looking to get WDCQ, which is just a PBS station, but it's one of the few in the country to carry MHz Worldview as a subchannel, and it has a few other unique features. According to my TVFool analysis, the signal for it where I am is 1Edge, and I haven't really dealt with 1Edge or 2Edge that much, so what is the best way I can get WDCQ while getting a good reception with it, and for whenever I need to do this with another Edge signal in the future, what is the best way to deal with those signals?

Also, how many decibels of antenna gain am I going to need to pick this up?


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post #12757 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
TVFool: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9038d82ae76c8e

what is the best way I can get WDCQ while getting a good reception with it, and for whenever I need to do this with another Edge signal in the future, what is the best way to deal with those signals?

Also, how many decibels of antenna gain am I going to need to pick this up?
Your chances of reliable reception of WDCQ are poor. With a NM of -5.4 dB, a high gain UHF antenna should be able to pick it up, but there are other factors involved.

If you look at WDCQ on your report, you will see an "a" and a "c" next to its callsign, that indicate adjacent channel and co-channel interference.

WEWS is also on channel 15 with a NM of -13.0 dB. WDCQ is only 7.6 dB stronger than WEWS; it must be at least 15 dB stronger to avoid co-channel interference from WEWS.

WKBD is on adjacent channel 14 with a NM of 57.9 dB, which is 63.3 dB stronger than WDCQ. WDCQ can only tolerate adjacent channel interference that is no greater than 33 dB stronger.

WKBD will be moving to channel 34 this year, so that should improve.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WKBD

Your local signals are much stronger than WDCQ, so you will not be able to use a preamp to help with WDCQ; it and your tuner would be overloaded. Your local signals would be stronger by the sum of your antenna gain and preamp gain.

Even without a preamp, the local signals will be increased by the antenna gain, bringing them close to overload, which will create spurious signals from IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) that will interfere with the reception of much weaker signals like WDCQ. The difference between your strongest signals and your weakest desired signal is called the Dynamic Range. There is a limit to the Dynamic Range that your system can handle. To that you must add the minimum required SNR of 15 dB, which will give you the required SFDR (Spurious-Free Dynamic Range) for reception of your weakest desired signal.

If you are willing to risk the odds, try it; your report is only a computer software prediction.

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Last edited by rabbit73; 02-22-2019 at 07:40 PM.
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post #12758 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
Your chances of reliable reception of WDCQ are poor. With a NM of -5.4 dB, a high gain UHF antenna should be able to pick it up, but there are other factors involved.
Would using a notch filter or bandpass filter help with this in any way?

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Last edited by DrDon; 02-23-2019 at 08:14 AM. Reason: Truncated quote
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post #12759 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
Would using a notch filter or bandpass filter help with this in any way?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
A bandstop filter to attenuate WADL might help a little. WADL will be moving to 27, phase 8 beginning of 2020.
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...&callsign=WADL


A filter to attenuate the adjacent channel interference would be difficult to design and expensive; better to wait for the channel changes.


https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...h=&lss=&status=


https://www.fcc.gov/about-fcc/fcc-in...ition-schedule
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post #12760 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 08:12 PM
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Unrelated to the topic I mentioned above, but for some reason I'm getting no signal for WHNE, but it has been near flawless of a signal lately. Is anyone else in metro Detroit seeing this problem? In fact, I was getting perfect reception of it earlier today.
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post #12761 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 08:30 PM
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Oh my God. I just found out there's tropospheric propagation going on here right now. That's why WHNE isn't coming in, and which is also why for 5 minutes I got CHWI. Very cool and the first time I've ever experienced it.

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post #12762 of 12798 Old 02-22-2019, 08:40 PM
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Also side note I was watching Jimmy Fallon and for a second in the intro it looks like the video input changed to what appeared to be a slate for the show, but it was too short for me to see. Thankfully I pondered recording this show beforehand for no reason and did it so I'm going to look back at it soon.

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post #12763 of 12798 Old 02-23-2019, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
Would using a notch filter or bandpass filter help with this in any way?
There is another approach that I thought might work for WDCQ: a separate antenna, a custom single-channel bandpass filter from Tin Lee ($$$) for 15, and a preamp. There must not be any strong adjacent channels in 14 or 16. The front to back ratio of the antenna aimed at WDCQ might make WEWS weak enough to avoid co-channel interference.

But, it looks like that, and the previous suggestion, will not work because W33BY is moving to 15 with the callsign WHPS-CD:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...h=&lss=&status

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...=25722#station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHPS-CD
Quote:
On August 3, 2018, the station changed its call letters to WHPS-CD.
Someone that lives closer to WDCQ, or another MHz Worldview station, would have to stream it to you with a Slingbox.
https://www.rabbitears.info/search.p...=MHz+Worldview

or pay MHz to stream
https://mhznetworks.com/

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post #12764 of 12798 Old 02-23-2019, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rabbit73 View Post
There is another approach that I thought might work for WDCQ: a separate antenna, a custom single-channel bandpass filter from Tin Lee ($$$) for 15, and a preamp. There must not be any strong adjacent channels in 14 or 16. The front to back ratio of the antenna aimed at WDCQ might make WEWS weak enough to avoid co-channel interference.

But, it looks like that, and the previous suggestion, will not work because W33BY is moving to 15 with the callsign WHPS-CD:
https://www.rabbitears.info/repackch...h=&lss=&status

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.p...=25722#station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHPS-CD


Someone that lives closer to WDCQ, or another MHz Worldview station, would have to stream it to you with a Slingbox.
https://www.rabbitears.info/search.p...=MHz+Worldview

or pay MHz to stream
https://mhznetworks.com/
When WHPS does move to 15, wouldn't I just be able to move my antenna away from WHPS and to WDCQ?

Edit: Also, I saw those Tin Lee bandpass filters yesterday and I didn't see how much they were, but they seem expensive. How much do they go for?

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Last edited by Frank Fantin; 02-23-2019 at 07:58 AM.
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post #12765 of 12798 Old 02-23-2019, 08:20 AM
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When WHPS does move to 15, wouldn't I just be able to move my antenna away from WHPS and to WDCQ?
Nope. Their transmitter is just off the Davison, so practically in your backyard.

I truncated some of your quotes as they were long quotes directly beneath the quoted post.

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post #12766 of 12798 Old 02-23-2019, 10:02 AM
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When WHPS does move to 15, wouldn't I just be able to move my antenna away from WHPS and to WDCQ?
Interesting question; I will have to do an analysis.

Yes, it is true that if your antenna is aimed at 334 deg for WDCQ, WHPS/W33BY at 214 deg will be weaker because of the antenna pattern. But, will it be weak enough to not interfere with WDCQ that is on the SAME channel?



W33BY has a NM of 38.5 dB. WDCQ has a NM of -5.4 dB. W33BY must not be any stronger than NM -20.4 dB to not interfere with WDCQ. It seems highly unlikely that the off-axis aim of the antenna will make W33BY 58.9 dB weaker. The only way you could even approach that amount of attenuation would be to put the WDCQ yagi antenna in a shielded enclosure with an open end facing WDCQ. Even then, the antenna would pick up W33BY reflections from the front.



Quote:
Edit: Also, I saw those Tin Lee bandpass filters yesterday and I didn't see how much they were, but they seem expensive. How much do they go for?
A Tin Lee custom single-channel bandpass filter for channel 15 would cost more than $100. A single-channel bandpass filter by Jan Jenca would be less expensive, but you can't use either one because both transmitters are on the same channel.
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post #12767 of 12798 Old 05-15-2019, 01:58 PM
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Can anyone tell me if WXYZ 7.4 is transmitting Court TV in SD or in HD? Their sister station here in Cleveland is broadcasting it in 720p. Not sure if this was a mistake on WEWS' part as most of the Court TV affiliates are being listed as 480i.

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post #12768 of 12798 Old 05-15-2019, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone tell me if WXYZ 7.4 is transmitting Court TV in SD or in HD? Their sister station here in Cleveland is broadcasting it in 720p. Not sure if this was a mistake on WEWS' part as most of the Court TV affiliates are being listed as 480i.
It is in SD (720x480).

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post #12769 of 12798 Old 05-15-2019, 02:43 PM
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That's interesting. They must be allocating more bandwidth to Court TV there because most subchannels almost anywhere are 480. Wish more stations would do that to their subs so they at least get 720. Maybe in 3.0. Maybe.

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post #12770 of 12798 Old 05-15-2019, 03:14 PM
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It is in SD (720x480).
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
That's interesting. They must be allocating more bandwidth to Court TV there because most subchannels almost anywhere are 480. Wish more stations would do that to their subs so they at least get 720. Maybe in 3.0. Maybe.

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Not that I'm against them for running Court TV in HD, I just don't feel that it's necessary due to the network's format. If it was a sports network or a network specializing in HD content, then transmitting the channel in 720p would probably make sense, that is if bandwidth and encoder efficiency allows the station to do so. WEWS continues to carry Grit (5.2) & Laff (5.3) in 480i, but if Court TV was in 480i, the station could probably add a .5 & a .6 sub, producing close to if not the same picture quality across all their channels that it currently does now. I would like WEWS to have a few available subs open just in case another station here drops a popular diginet, and I'm sure that Antenna TV will eventually leave WJW once it gets sold off to Nexstar and again to FOX...if they are still interested.

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post #12771 of 12798 Old 05-16-2019, 11:05 AM
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Interesting local ATSC 3.0 news story.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/scripps-tv...vision-station


Dr Don also found this article.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...by-end-of-2020

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post #12772 of 12798 Old 05-16-2019, 03:07 PM
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Interesting local ATSC 3.0 news story.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/scripps-tv...vision-station


Dr Don also found this article.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/s...by-end-of-2020
I'll repeat what I said in the 3.0 thread: Pay attention to the emphasis on the automotive industry.

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post #12773 of 12798 Old 05-17-2019, 07:48 AM
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I'll repeat what I said in the 3.0 thread: Pay attention to the emphasis on the automotive industry.
Hey DrDon, I reread both articles. I’m cornfused, not understanding what you are trying to convey to ME concerning the emphasis of the automotive industry.

Please esplain........thank you.

It may just be lack of sleep on my part and I probably am a couple cups behind you on the morning consumption of high octane rocket fuel.

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post #12774 of 12798 Old 05-17-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by LNEWoLF View Post
Hey DrDon, I reread both articles. I’m cornfused, not understanding what you are trying to convey to ME concerning the emphasis of the automotive industry.

Please esplain........thank you.

It may just be lack of sleep on my part and I probably am a couple cups behind you on the morning consumption of high octane rocket fuel.
Remember the city we're discussing, here. Think seatback entertainment system. And keep an eye on manufacturers who already offer some form of internet to vehicles, current and upcoming.

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post #12775 of 12798 Old 05-17-2019, 10:25 AM
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Remember the city we're discussing, here. Think seatback entertainment system. And keep an eye on manufacturers who already offer some form of internet to vehicles, current and upcoming.
Yes I understand your POV. This will be huge for the automotive industry. As well as most/any mobile related device. On one hand I [email protected]@k forward to this coming technology. Some of the improvements are welcomed. Who doesn’t want better or potentially more stable reception under some/certain conditions, potentially more channels and a further increase in picture quality. Just with the increased resolution from blurays and UHD disks that have been scanned at much higher resolutions. That were not available when 1080P arrived. IMHO, I am experiencing a notable upgrade in picture quality with both my 1080i and 1080P TV sets. There being feed a VERY high quality signal from recent bluray and UHD disks.

One potential advancement with this technology is the ability to turn on your TV and devices to alert you 24/7 during severe weather events. Which I believe will save lives. Myself I have a weather alert radio in my bedroom. As well as my cell phone apps set to track and alert of severe weather conditions. Unfortunately there is allot of people that don’t.

On the other hand It’s opening a huge door into pandora’s box with the potential advertising $$$$$$$. As well as location based advertising. That is driving this technology IMHO. I understand it is necessary for the bu$ine$$ model. I have certainly benefited from it. As in FREE OTA TV channels. This will certainly open the doors to vehicles and mobile devices while traveling down the road. Imagine advertising a commercial for a big mac. To your backseat passengers. Exclaiming to take the next exit and turn left into McDonalds drive thru lane..

For ME, too much advertising intensity can be a bad thing. This was one of the reasons I canceled cable TV. I Was no longer able to enjoy a movie/TV show with an advertising cyclic rate of 6-8 mins of the movie and then 6-8+ mins of ads. That doesn’t even include all the uninvited little people and creatures not related to the movie. Walking across my screenscape advertising a future TV show/episode to further distract ME and consuming my attention.

Will be interesting to see ATSC 3.0 come together.

That’s my 3 1/2 cents. Thank you DrDon for taking the time to enlighten me further. Take care......

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post #12776 of 12798 Old 05-17-2019, 10:29 AM
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Yes I understand your POV.
It's more than a POV.

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post #12777 of 12798 Old 05-17-2019, 10:33 AM
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It's more than a POV.
You’re correct......It is Fact

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post #12778 of 12798 Old 05-19-2019, 08:54 AM
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For ME, too much advertising intensity can be a bad thing. This was one of the reasons I canceled cable TV. I Was no longer able to enjoy a movie/TV show with an advertising cyclic rate of 6-8 mins of the movie and then 6-8+ mins of ads. That doesn’t even include all the uninvited little people and creatures not related to the movie. Walking across my screenscape advertising a future TV show/episode to further distract ME and consuming my attention.
Why do you think broadcasters want ATSC 3?

They look at subscription TV providers (cable, satellite, streaming) being able to control what consumers watch, when they watch it, and how, just like they used to be able to do before the advent of VCRs, and want that back. Mark my words: It won't be long after ATSC 3.x has attained sufficient market penetration that you'll see DRM applied to OTA TV. Then you can kiss OTA DVRs, except those blessed by the DRM Gods, goodbye. And there'll be no more FF'ing past commercials, much less commercial skip--automated or otherwise.

I'm glad I grew up in a generation that was taught to enjoy reading, because I expect it won't be long before I'll be doing a lot more of that, and a lot less watching of TV.

That's probably a good thing, anyway
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post #12779 of 12798 Old 05-19-2019, 09:05 AM
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Why do you think broadcasters want ATSC 3?

They look at subscription TV providers (cable, satellite, streaming) being able to control what consumers watch, when they watch it, and how, just like they used to be able to do before the advent of VCRs, and want that back. Mark my words: It won't be long after ATSC 3.x has attained sufficient market penetration that you'll see DRM applied to OTA TV. Then you can kiss OTA DVRs, except those blessed by the DRM Gods, goodbye. And there'll be no more FF'ing past commercials, much less commercial skip--automated or otherwise.

I'm glad I grew up in a generation that was taught to enjoy reading, because I expect it won't be long before I'll be doing a lot more of that, and a lot less watching of TV.

That's probably a good thing, anyway
The thing is, the DRMs only work if the receiver is connected to the internet, which uses the internet as a sort of consumer uplink. And ATSC has stated that the intentions of the DRM are only for PPV, which will be over the internet and they stated that it will NOT apply to RF streams.

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post #12780 of 12798 Old 05-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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The thing is, the DRMs only work if the receiver is connected to the internet, which uses the internet as a sort of consumer uplink. And ATSC has stated that the intentions of the DRM are only for PPV, which will be over the internet and they stated that it will NOT apply to RF streams.
Note emphasis added.

What they claim are their stated intentions and what the reality ends up being may be two entirely different things. This is the industry that fought VCRs tooth-and-nail, back in the day. Little has changed. E.g.: Dish Agrees To Cripple Its Ad-Skipping DVR To Settle Fox Lawsuit and Aereo, for example.

If broadcasters are given an avenue to cripple OTA recording, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll exploit it for all it's worth. And the consumer-oriented philosophies that once dominated government regulation are history. (I've little doubt that if the VCR issue was being decided today, the broadcasters would win.)
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