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post #12781 of 12953 Old 05-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
Note emphasis added.

What they claim are their stated intentions and what the reality ends up being may be two entirely different things. This is the industry that fought VCRs tooth-and-nail, back in the day. Little has changed. E.g.: Dish Agrees To Cripple Its Ad-Skipping DVR To Settle Fox Lawsuit and Aereo, for example.

If broadcasters are given an avenue to cripple OTA recording, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll exploit it for all it's worth. And the consumer-oriented philosophies that once dominated government regulation are history. (I've little doubt that if the VCR issue was being decided today, the broadcasters would win.)
The thing is, whenever a DRM gets out there, someone, in some way, will crack it. It always happens at some point. Once they roll out 3.0, there's no turning back. They can't come back 5 months later and say "oops, we screwed up, gotta make another revision to the millions of pieces of equipment that now use our standard!" By then it'll be far too late to patch any potential crack in it without having to upgrade everything all over again.

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post #12782 of 12953 Old 05-19-2019, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
The thing is, whenever a DRM gets out there, someone, in some way, will crack it. It always happens at some point. Once they roll out 3.0, there's no turning back. They can't come back 5 months later and say "oops, we screwed up, gotta make another revision to the millions of pieces of equipment that now use our standard!" By then it'll be far too late to patch any potential crack in it without having to upgrade everything all over again.
That won't matter to people like my wife and I, who are using over-the-counter commercial products to put OTA channels on our LAN and DVR them. You can bet those companies won't be shipping product that cracks DRM.
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post #12783 of 12953 Old 05-20-2019, 06:54 AM
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There are a couple schools of thought circulating regarding ATSC 3.0 DRM. On the one hand, broadcasters finally have an opportunity to create an environment where some or all commercials aren't skippable on DVR replays or are replaceable. To that argument, a lot of viewers have grown accustomed to unskippable ads in return for a wider-variety of on-demand viewing. Anyone who's dealt with streaming practically anything from a cable network's website knows they have to watch the ads, though often not as many as with the linear broadcast. The other point in support of this path is that, if you're going to sell targeted ads, the target needs to see them.

On the other hand, fast-forwarding has been around a very long time, now, and that doesn't seem to be inhibiting the sale of advertising nor the success of that advertising. That said, stations frequently charge more for inventory on programs that don't lend themselves to time-shifting, such as sports and water-cooler-discussed competition and reality shows.

DRM will be a part of the rollout, there's no doubt about that. I DO think you can expect any 3.0 DVR to behave like cable DVRs and CableCARD devices: recordings are going to be glued to the machine they're recorded on and not off-loadable. Yeah, someone will find some workarounds like they have with capture boxes, but for the general public, not so much. I do think the end game is a DVR that won't let you FF past the commercial breaks but can and will allow for the insertion of ads that might not have played with the original airing. This allows stations to run the same game networks do with ads on streaming.... without streaming which they don't have the rights to do. STB makers will go along with this as it'll be all-too-easy for broadcasters to block recordings for devices that don't comply.

That's my read of the DRM and broadcasters' desired end game. Reality, naturally, is often different.

If anyone wishes to continue this, best to move to the ATSC 3.0 thread in Technical.
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post #12784 of 12953 Old 05-20-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
If anyone wishes to continue this, best to move to the ATSC 3.0 thread in Technical.
That occurred to me after my previous post. Moving it over there.
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post #12785 of 12953 Old 05-27-2019, 11:02 AM
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As of right now, WMYD is testing their repack signal.

Here is a screenshot of this testing:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...lingplayer.jpg
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post #12786 of 12953 Old 05-27-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt Burb View Post
As of right now, WMYD is testing their repack signal.

Here is a screenshot of this testing:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...lingplayer.jpg
I saw WKBD testing theirs a few months back for a few hours although they ended up not switching so if this is the same kind of thing, don't expect WMYD to go to their repack channel permanently today.

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post #12787 of 12953 Old 05-27-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
I saw WKBD testing theirs a few months back for a few hours although they ended up not switching so if this is the same kind of thing, don't expect WMYD to go to their repack channel permanently today.

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WMYD says they will change next Saturday, June 1. WKBD says they will switch on June 21, the final day for their phase (3) of the repack. The rest of the channels in their phase are lower power stations. The remaining high power station that are switching (4, 7, 31, 56 and 62) will be in phase 8, and that ends on March 13 of next year. 2 and 9 do not change.
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post #12788 of 12953 Old 06-18-2019, 08:19 AM
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We now know what will be on WWJ 62.3 in the fall:
https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/cbs...se-1203244886/
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post #12789 of 12953 Old 06-22-2019, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank Fantin View Post
I saw WKBD testing theirs a few months back for a few hours although they ended up not switching ...
Looks like they switched now. Or recently. We don't watch WKBD very much, but we went to watch a Last Man Standing rerun last night and the channel was MIA. Rescanning brought it back. Checking this morning they're now on real channel 34.
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post #12790 of 12953 Old 06-22-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary S View Post
WMYD says they will change next Saturday, June 1. WKBD says they will switch on June 21, the final day for their phase (3) of the repack. The rest of the channels in their phase are lower power stations. The remaining high power station that are switching (4, 7, 31, 56 and 62) will be in phase 8, and that ends on March 13 of next year. 2 and 9 do not change.
Is there an explanation somewhere why they are almost all switching and what the reasoning is behind which station switches when?
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post #12791 of 12953 Old 06-22-2019, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Is there an explanation somewhere why they are almost all switching and what the reasoning is behind which station switches when?

Our illustrious government is auctioning off the higher frequencies to the highest bidder (cell phone companies and such (Think 5G.)). The channels that remain (below 37, I think), are where all of the channels must migrate to. They are giving some of the money to the stations to cover some of their their costs and keeping the rest. There is no money for viewers to cover any costs they may incur. (This includes stations that may switch to ATSC 3.0 in the coming years. The ones that switch will not be viewable with existing equipment. You will have to buy a new TV or tuner box, at your own expense.)

The stations are doing this in 10 phases so that various stations can move without causing interference with other stations nearby. Many cities are doing this in 2-3 phases, depending on how many stations they have and how many are in adjacent markets.Many of the stations require new antennas, and with only limited crews to do the tower work, work is done on several stations at the same time while they are in town.


2 and 9 are not being affected because they are on high VHF, and they are not being affected, at least in this market. All of the other stations are on UHF.
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post #12792 of 12953 Old 06-23-2019, 12:25 AM
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post #12793 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 05:15 AM
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Did WKBD 50 increase their power when they made the switch to RF34? I've never been able to receive it up here in Grand Blanc, but it's coming in strong now. I'm already receiving Comet, Charge & TBD on their dot channels from other stations up here so nothing gained there. I do see that on 50.1 they show Seinfeld late at night so I'll set the DVR to record that.
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post #12794 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 05:26 AM
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post #12795 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by thebeeguy View Post
Did WKBD 50 increase their power when they made the switch to RF34? I've never been able to receive it up here in Grand Blanc, but it's coming in strong now. I'm already receiving Comet, Charge & TBD on their dot channels from other stations up here so nothing gained there. I do see that on 50.1 they show Seinfeld late at night so I'll set the DVR to record that.
Odd I'm in Flushing and have never had an issues getting Ch.50. I'm going to have to rescan and adjust for all the changes.
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post #12796 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 10:22 AM
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Odd I'm in Flushing and have never had an issues getting Ch.50. I'm going to have to rescan and adjust for all the changes.
I can't get WJBK 2 either. But I'm just using a 4-bay homemade antenna on top of my ranch house. It can pick up 4, 5, 7, 12, 19, 20, 25, 46, 49, 50, 56, 62, 66.
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post #12797 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 11:44 AM
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I can't get WJBK 2 either. But I'm just using a 4-bay homemade antenna on top of my ranch house. It can pick up 4, 5, 7, 12, 19, 20, 25, 46, 49, 50, 56, 62, 66.

Remember WJBK is a VHF station. The antenna you describe sounds like a UHF only type. A close-by station might be fine, but WJBK sounds like it might be too far for you.

Last edited by Gary S; 06-24-2019 at 11:50 AM.
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post #12798 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 12:33 PM
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Remember WJBK is a VHF station. The antenna you describe sounds like a UHF only type. A close-by station might be fine, but WJBK sounds like it might be too far for you.
You are correct. I was thinking of maybe buying a VHF only antenna like this one...
https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Dire...-search&sr=8-3


I think that may get me WJBK and also WHNE when they goto channel 3 in the future.
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post #12799 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 12:59 PM
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I can't get WJBK 2 either. But I'm just using a 4-bay homemade antenna on top of my ranch house. It can pick up 4, 5, 7, 12, 19, 20, 25, 46, 49, 50, 56, 62, 66.
Well I'd say you are doing pretty well. I'd guess you are about 20 miles closer to the towers than I am, and that can make a big difference. I have a stacked antenna system on my tower, and I bought a UHF/VHF combiner last year, to add WJBK Ch. 2 and in dim hopes of getting Ch.9 -as I used to with analog. Really messed up my UHF reception for some reason. Pulled it out of the system.

Over the years, I've been at this since HD OTA went live in the early 2000's, I've found the tuner makes a great difference. Even today. My SiliconDust Quatro picks up Ch12 off my UHF only antenna, but my TCL Roku TV will not.
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post #12800 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by thebeeguy View Post
You are correct. I was thinking of maybe buying a VHF only antenna like this one...
https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Dire...-search&sr=8-3


I think that may get me WJBK and also WHNE when they goto channel 3 in the future.
Hi again thebeeguy,

I responded to your thoughts in the Flint, MI thread a bit earlier.

I'm a big fan of the offerings from Antennas Direct, but their dipole has a slim chance of getting WHNE. Two reasons why:

* It's not long enough, as it's intended for High-VHF (RF7-13). I read on this or another site that the length of it is ideal for RF10--so smack dab in the middle of High-VHF. Since WHNE is approved to go to Low-VHF RF3, the "wingspan" of an antenna for RF3 calculates out be just under 8 feet for the wavelength...not the approximately 3 feet of the Antennas Direct offering.

* WHNE is and will continue to be low power. Even with their filing this month asking for a higher output, their fringe coverage is only estimated to stretch to maybe Holly and Ortonville.

~~~~~~~~~

If you're wanting to be prepared for the off chance that have WHNE possibly reach you, consider an antenna with a wide beamwidth, such as:

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd8200xl

I'd say watch for when they have it up in their "Deal of the Day" list, and drive down to Novi, MI to save the shipping costs.

~~~~~~~~~

I bet you get WJRT (RF12, VC12) with just about anything, since you're rather close by. Likely the only other High-VHF signal to try for is WJBK (RF7, VC2). If it were me, I'd be trying to add this antenna:

https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...nna/dp/71Y5462

with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF Signal Joiner) to keep your 4-bay if it's serving you well for all other desired channels. Examples being:

https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...ner/dp/48Y8153
https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

(The first two are ready to be on the mast, whereas the last one would best be out of the weather.)

Even with that effort, and perhaps adding a mast-mounted pre-amplifier (paying attention to having the DC current pass through the joiner to reach it), I'd doubt you'd get WJBK at all times.


Maybe you'll turn me in to a liar. You mentioned in a post that you used to get WJBK...was that in the last few years, or back in the analog TV days of 2009 and prior?

Good luck! Cheers ~ Statmanmi

Kent County, MI

Last edited by statmanmi; 06-24-2019 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Realized I had confused thebeeguy's mentioned location with that of Matt L. Reworded as I'm more optimistic for thebeeguy's chances for the Detroit VHFs.
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post #12801 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebeeguy View Post
You are correct. I was thinking of maybe buying a VHF only antenna like this one...
https://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Dire...-search&sr=8-3

I think that may get me WJBK and also WHNE when they goto channel 3 in the future.
statmanmi beat me to it!

If you want to receive WHNE at all or reliably, you likely need to install an outdoor antenna capable of receiving all the bands (lo-VHF, hi-VHF & UHF). Those antennas are the huge old school design commonly seen in rural areas. You can also daisy-chain a VHF antenna to an existing UHF antenna and stack them for a more compact look. Of course, you have to make sure the mast is long enough and the two antennas are spaced far enough apart to avoid conflicting with each other.

Newer is not always better.
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post #12802 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 03:22 PM
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Is there an explanation somewhere why they are almost all switching and what the reasoning is behind which station switches when?
Hi Stereodude,

Some further information is available from these pages:

http://tvanswers.org/

https://www.fcc.gov/TVrescan


I recently saw posted somewhere that one criteria the FCC has attempted is to have every DMA need to re-scan only once or twice.

Yet with the Low Power TV stations that aren't Class A (and translators, of which West Michigan/Grand Rapids has a few--and exist in droves in Utah and other Western States), they can make their changes whenever won't interfere with Full Power and Class A broadcast reception.

Perhaps these thoughts help with a bit more insight?


~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Snowdog 88, Great minds think alike! I've geeked out lots on this and a couple other sites regarding OTA DTV to the point I'm able to share some thoughts with others.

Cheers! ~ Statmanmi
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post #12803 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 04:22 PM
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Well this is not good. Just rescanned with my Silicon Dust Quarto and lost ch. 50 among others. Had a channel count of 56, now I"m down to 41!

A few years ago I used to use a website, I thought it was Antennaweb.org and it allowed exactly location entry and it gave locating of towers in degrees for pointing the antenna. Can't find it anymore, now it's only by zip code. What else is out there with better info?

Ok, found it --TVfool.com

Last edited by Matt L; 06-24-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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post #12804 of 12953 Old 06-24-2019, 05:48 PM
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Hi Stereodude,

I recently saw posted somewhere that one criteria the FCC has attempted is to have every DMA need to re-scan only once or twice.

Cheers! ~ Statmanmi

I think that was wishful thinking, as we have already had to rescan twice for just two stations, and the big guns don't change until next March. Who is to say how many times we will have to rescan for them?
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post #12805 of 12953 Old 06-25-2019, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by statmanmi View Post
Hi again thebeeguy,

I responded to your thoughts in the Flint, MI thread a bit earlier.

I'm a big fan of the offerings from Antennas Direct, but their dipole has a slim chance of getting WHNE. Two reasons why:

* It's not long enough, as it's intended for High-VHF (RF7-13). I read on this or another site that the length of it is ideal for RF10--so smack dab in the middle of High-VHF. Since WHNE is approved to go to Low-VHF RF3, the "wingspan" of an antenna for RF3 calculates out be just under 8 feet for the wavelength...not the approximately 3 feet of the Antennas Direct offering.

* WHNE is and will continue to be low power. Even with their filing this month asking for a higher output, their fringe coverage is only estimated to stretch to maybe Holly and Ortonville.

~~~~~~~~~

If you're wanting to be prepared for the off chance that have WHNE possibly reach you, consider an antenna with a wide beamwidth, such as:

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=hd8200xl

I'd say watch for when they have it up in their "Deal of the Day" list, and drive down to Novi, MI to save the shipping costs.

~~~~~~~~~

I bet you get WJRT (RF12, VC12) with just about anything, since you're rather close by. Likely the only other High-VHF signal to try for is WJBK (RF7, VC2). If it were me, I'd be trying to add this antenna:

https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...nna/dp/71Y5462

with a UVSJ (UHF/VHF Signal Joiner) to keep your 4-bay if it's serving you well for all other desired channels. Examples being:

https://www.newark.com/stellar-labs/...ner/dp/48Y8153
https://store.antennasdirect.com/antenna-combiner.html
https://www.radioshack.com/products/...itter-combiner

(The first two are ready to be on the mast, whereas the last one would best be out of the weather.)

Even with that effort, and perhaps adding a mast-mounted pre-amplifier (paying attention to having the DC current pass through the joiner to reach it), I'd doubt you'd get WJBK at all times.


Maybe you'll turn me in to a liar. You mentioned in a post that you used to get WJBK...was that in the last few years, or back in the analog TV days of 2009 and prior?

Good luck! Cheers ~ Statmanmi

That 1st antenna is huge!! I'm not sure I can justify the cost just to receive GetTV (that's the only channel that I would want from WHNE).
Even spending $36 to receive Buzzr & Movies! on WJBK might be a stretch.


I did receive WJBK before 2009 and that was with a huge antenna with a rotor. I ended up getting rid of that set up.
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post #12806 of 12953 Old 07-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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WTVS (43.1) & WWJ (44.1) are weaker

I looked through the previous posts and didn't see anything after about 2018 on these two stations and weak signals. I understand they are based from the same tower.

Has anyone else noticed that WTVS and WWJ have been weaker the last couple of weeks? I figured a wind storm knocked my smallish RCA roof antenna (******** item 2FXXF4G) a little out of position which has impacted WWJ for me a couple of years ago so I finally got up there today to move it around and couldn't pull WWJ or WTVS above 68% signal strength (usually around 60%) and 80% quality (usually around 78%) so no improvement for the investment of going onto roof. I checked the signal booster and turning the power off I go to 0 for both so apparently the booster is working ok.

DIV/XYZ/KBD/JBK all come in 90%+ for both.

I live out in Ray Twp, TV Fool shows 24 miles for them and well into the green and my antenna is on South West side of home at about 15". [tv fool image attached] I have had signal up in the 90% for WWJ normally. I have been running on this antenna since 2014, 4 years prior I was on an old giant mast antenna and this one has been much higher quality and more stable in the wind storms.

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated, thanks in advance!

joe
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post #12807 of 12953 Old 07-08-2019, 04:22 AM
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No issues receiving those 2 stations here in Grand Blanc. I'm having some trouble with some other ones, but not those.
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post #12808 of 12953 Old 07-10-2019, 06:12 PM
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Decades Returning To Detroit

Decades will be returning to Detroit later this year according to this article. Fox Television Stations (owner of WJBK) have come to an agreement to carry the network in 12 major markets, and it appears that it will be carried on WJBK 2.5.

Newer is not always better.
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post #12809 of 12953 Old 07-11-2019, 07:18 AM
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I'm not going to retype a long answer in, for the third fracking time, because of this site's brain-dead "token has expired" garbage


Suffice it to say: Yes, it looks like both WWJ-TV and WTVS have dropped their power some. Perhaps in prep for the repack?
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post #12810 of 12953 Old 07-11-2019, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEMIJim View Post
I'm not going to retype a long answer in, for the third fracking time, because of this site's brain-dead "token has expired" garbage


Suffice it to say: Yes, it looks like both WWJ-TV and WTVS have dropped their power some. Perhaps in prep for the repack?
Token has expired? I type mini-novels on here all day and haven't seen that.

My buddy at WWJ-DT says nothing's changed on their end. But he's looking into it.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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